A PvP duel, a stubborn monk and the guy who's gonna kill him.

[Gereo]

So a dear friend of mine recently made a rather bold claim. He asserts that his 20th lvl monk build can defeat any equal leveled character that my companions and i can engineer. After my mates and i assured him of his utter fantasy, i made a perhaps even more foolhardy claim: that i would defeat him with a single-classed fighter...

Now, ordinarily this would be no issue. I would whip up a (comparatively) glass cannon and wipe the floor with him. But he let slip that he'll be using the Shadow sun ninja PrC from nine swords, and this irks me...The only methods i can think of to counter the ssn's powers seem very much to me like hard counters (see enduring life, lasting life feats from libris mortis) and that feels a bit like cheating.

So what's a gamer with no access to any class but fighter to do? Thoughts?

[Renen]

I do agree that his is a nice fantasy. But you can easily make a class that will kill him in one round.

As for your problem, use whatever you want. He DID say "ANY equal leveled character that my companions and i can engineer"
So use all the cheese you want.

[Metahuman1]

Maybe the Mage Slayer line could work to counter some of his defenses?

Shock Trooper + Leap Attack + Knock Down + Improved Trip + Improved Bulls Rush + Knock Back + Rampaging Bulls Rush + Dungeon Crasher + a superbly juiced Strength Score and a two handed weapon and the Mage Slayer Line?

Then just equip like you NEED to win Initiative and make stooped high jump checks and attack rolls? Try to cream him that way before he can do anything?

Edit: Make the weapon a Spiked Chain, have a Permanent Enlarge Person on you, and have combat Reflexes and Dex as a high stat as well as Str, and the Karmatic Strike and Robilars Gambit feats so that trying to actually get a hit in is gonna be hard, and doing so is punished?

Stack the Crap out of Miss Chance so that he's got a super hard time hitting you with anything?

[Spuddles]

Maybe the Mage Slayer line could work to counter some of his defenses?

Shock Trooper + Leap Attack + Knock Down + Improved Trip + Improved Bulls Rush + Knock Back + Rampaging Bulls Rush + Dungeon Crasher + a superbly juiced Strength Score and a two handed weapon and the Mage Slayer Line?

Then just equip like you NEED to win Initiative and make stooped high jump checks and attack rolls? Try to cream him that way before he can do anything?

Edit: Make the weapon a Spiked Chain, have a Permanent Enlarge Person on you, and have combat Reflexes and Dex as a high stat as well as Str, and the Karmatic Strike and Robilars Gambit feats so that trying to actually get a hit in is gonna be hard, and doing so is punished?

Stack the Crap out of Miss Chance so that he's got a super hard time hitting you with anything?

All this stuff, right here. Always good at any level. It he ever gets close enough to touch you, you can retaliate, knock him on his ass, and push him back.

Spiked chain + perm enlarge + inhuman reach + deformity: tall = 30ft reach.

If you want protection from neg energy, which any level 20 char should have, soulfire mithral buckler is what you want.

Quick recovery, from LoM may be worth while for avoiding stunlock.

[tilionvevfet]

Be Jack B. Quick. Win.

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19869062/6_hits_to_1:_Jack_B._Quick

[Deaxsa]

did he say anything about level advancement? because you could always grab a ton of templates or something. also, just get something (anything) with a ranged attack and a fly speed.

[Gereo]

Great ideas all. I especially like jack, even just in general. I had considered a weapon supremacy, TWF build with wounding handaxes to spam con dmg and win in two rounds...i often use two-handers so he will see power atk-centric builds coming, probably take evasive combatant.
My promise was to use a fighter, but my other friend made no such promise, and is using an incantatrix...the poor monk-guy has never even played a caster...:smalleek:

[Vamphyr]

You could always go for a bow build. Utilize every feat to give you multiple attacks, pick up a bow with the splitting enhancement that also dels dex damage, then grab any item that gives you flying.

Good Game.

[Kyberwulf]

I don't think he is really using a 20lv. Monk if he is using prestige classes.

[Pickford]

I don't think he is really using a 20lv. Monk if he is using prestige classes.

Which is why you should build a Drunken Master, full attack him with an improvised weapon (a 2000 lb boulder, easily carried with light load from your 40+ base str) for around 26d8 per hit then breath fire on him 10 times for 30d6.

So, total damage ~130d8 + 30d6 = (160-1220; 690 ave)

[Metahuman1]

If you go Archer, grab Hanks Bow, Power attack, and as many too hit boosters as you can. Grab the Manyshot and Rapid Shot Feats and the Far Shot feat, Put the Splitting Enchantment on the bow, and add Wounding. Pay for a persisted Haste and Fly spell before you fight him along with a CL 20 Greater Magic Weapon on the bow.


It might not fit on there, but see if you can get the Explosive property as well.


Your getting 12 attacks at full Bonus -4 for Manyshot and Rapid Shot - what ever PA you take off, then your getting another 12 after that at Iterative level, so that's 24 attacks in a full attack action. Dealing Str mod +5 + PA + 2d6 + Explosive Damage (amount varies based on a reflex save, but he WILL fail a save several times in a 24 attack attack routine.) and the best part, each hit is 2 points of Con damage, so you can do up to 48 Con damage, on a build that I doubt stresses Con case he's gotta prioritize Str, Dex, Wis, and maybe Int, and maybe Cha depending.

Oh, and DR is auto bypassed.

[Juntao112]

So a dear friend of mine recently made a rather bold claim. He asserts that his 20th lvl monk build can defeat any equal leveled character that my companions and i can engineer. After my mates and i assured him of his utter fantasy, i made a perhaps even more foolhardy claim: that i would defeat him with a single-classed fighter...

Now, ordinarily this would be no issue. I would whip up a (comparatively) glass cannon and wipe the floor with him. But he let slip that he'll be using the Shadow sun ninja PrC from nine swords, and this irks me...The only methods i can think of to counter the ssn's powers seem very much to me like hard counters (see enduring life, lasting life feats from libris mortis) and that feels a bit like cheating.

So what's a gamer with no access to any class but fighter to do? Thoughts?
If he gets a prestige class, so should you.

Open the Book of Vile Darkness.

Find the Cancer Mage.

[tyckspoon]

That 'Monk' is probably a Swordsage for at least a couple of levels. At least, he is if he wants to get decent use out of Shadow Sun Ninja's maneuver advancements (if not, then you know you have the advantage of him having blown 3 feats on low-level maneuvers just to qualify for it.) Keep that in mind- he doesn't only have SSN's special abilities. He gets access to Setting Sun and Shadow Hand maneuvers as well, and those can make him incredibly slippery. I'd recommend a ranged build, so you can avoid the frustration of him potentially using things like the Shifting Defense stance to just duck away from any attempt to engage him in melee that he doesn't want to be in.

And as far as feeling bad about getting negative level immunity.. don't. It's not even a specifically countering him thing- *every* level 20 character should be immune to energy drain, [Death] effects, and ability damage. Not having those immunities makes for a really fast way to die. But if you really think it would be unfair to be immune (to just one of the many ways he can try to attack you, keeping in mind he has Tome of Battle maneuvers to play with), would merely highly resistant be ok? Buying a Scarab of Protection would cover 12 attacks, and you should have killed him by the time that's broken. Or you can go for the Font of Life feat (Heroes of Horror), which lets you immediately make a save against any negative levels you receive.. and you can probably push that into anything-but-a-1 territory without too much trouble.

[Randomguy]

Which is why you should build a Drunken Master, full attack him with an improvised weapon (a 2000 lb boulder, easily carried with light load from your 40+ base str) for around 26d8 per hit then breath fire on him 10 times for 30d6.

So, total damage ~130d8 + 30d6 = (160-1220; 690 ave)

The breath attack is 30d12, not 30d6, and he'd probably evade it.

I suggest a tripper with reach, not Jack B. Quick. Use the Martial Study and Martial Stance feats to pick up Thicket of Blades so he can't tumble past you. You can also use the Supernatural Crusader + Supernatural Opportunist feats from Tome of Magic to make an AOO if he uses almost any of his class abilities.

[Silva Stormrage]

Also if you go splitting + ranged arrow spam don't forget about woodland archer. Every time you miss you get +4 to hit that stacks with itself for the remainder of the attack. If he somehow boosted his ac to ridiculous heights you can still probably hit him a good amount of the time.

[Gotterdammerung]

So a dear friend of mine recently made a rather bold claim. He asserts that his 20th lvl monk build can defeat any equal leveled character that my companions and i can engineer. After my mates and i assured him of his utter fantasy, i made a perhaps even more foolhardy claim: that i would defeat him with a single-classed fighter...

Now, ordinarily this would be no issue. I would whip up a (comparatively) glass cannon and wipe the floor with him. But he let slip that he'll be using the Shadow sun ninja PrC from nine swords, and this irks me...The only methods i can think of to counter the ssn's powers seem very much to me like hard counters (see enduring life, lasting life feats from libris mortis) and that feels a bit like cheating.

So what's a gamer with no access to any class but fighter to do? Thoughts?

The real question:

If we help you then don't you automatically lose the bet?

[Feint's End]

First clarify the rules ... It's easier for us all when you tell us with what kinda situation you are dealing. La allowed? What about flaws and traits? What point buy?

Second from what I know now.
1. the typical charger might work BUT has to stand up to the easily attainable counter charge maneuver and also your friend is probably dex based (Shadowblade, Weaponfinesse)
IF ofc it would work just boost strength a little bit and focus on dex to win initiative + take improved initiative
For example play Water-Orc and start with 16 str and 16 dex (becoming 20 str) boost both to around 30 ... together with improved initiative and items that should bring you to around +18 init (just guessing here)
use headlong rush, valorous weapon and maybe battlejump (should be possible to get the necessary jump-bonus to roll 50 (10 ft line for leap attack 10ft high for battlejump))
Now add shock trooper and use scimitar (just for the lulz) and you look at around (1d6+15+60)x4 dmg averaging at around 300 (even without pounce that should be enough since you can expect him to be MAD)


2. IF charging doesn't work then a ranger is probably your safest bet as suggested before (especially since your friend probably tries to counter every melee move you want to perform ... again: Counter Charge) ... Splitting, debuffing etc etc

But it would be nice to clear the conditions first ...

[Gnome Alone]

My promise was to use a fighter, but my other friend [...] is using an incantatrix...the poor monk-guy

So your friend's bringing a neutron bomb to a knife fight, whereas you're going with butcher knife vs. switchblade.

[Aharon]

"He let slip" could just be misdirection, couldn't it?

The Tashalatora Monk definitely is a monk build, although it contains few monk levels. If I were you, I would prepare for the best monk build imaginable and try to counter that. I'm no expert on monks, but IIRC, some builds that eschew as many monk levels as possible are pretty good.

[TuggyNE]

"He let slip" could just be misdirection, couldn't it?

The Tashalatora Monk definitely is a monk build, although it contains few monk levels. If I were you, I would prepare for the best monk build imaginable and try to counter that. I'm no expert on monks, but IIRC, some builds that eschew as many monk levels as possible are pretty good.

Especially the ones that use the stacking language of Tashalatora to have 0 Monk levels.

[Pickford]

The breath attack is 30d12, not 30d6, and he'd probably evade it.

I suggest a tripper with reach, not Jack B. Quick. Use the Martial Study and Martial Stance feats to pick up Thicket of Blades so he can't tumble past you. You can also use the Supernatural Crusader + Supernatural Opportunist feats from Tome of Magic to make an AOO if he uses almost any of his class abilities.

It'd be like a 50/50 shot to evade, and it's not one hit, it's '10'. So he'll probably fail on half of them.

Plus...how many levels of actual monk does he have? (i.e. 9? fewer?) given the entry requirements...

[Kafana]

Your getting 12 attacks at full Bonus -4 for Manyshot and Rapid Shot - what ever PA you take off, then your getting another 12 after that at Iterative level, so that's 24 attacks in a full attack action.

As far as I know you can't use both rapid shot and many shot. Many shot is a standard action and can only be used as the one attack in a round, while rapid shot needs a full round action. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[TuggyNE]

As far as I know you can't use both rapid shot and many shot. Many shot is a standard action and can only be used as the one attack in a round, while rapid shot needs a full round action. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Unfortunately, you're right.

[W3bDragon]

The real question:

If we help you then don't you automatically lose the bet?

I tend to agree with that.

In the scope of theoretical optimization, a monk will be hard pressed to win any fights. However, in the scope of inter-party optimization, a party member with enough optimization tricks can beat other party members while using subpar classes. By taking the challenge to the playground, you're removing it from its original context, the world of your inter-party optimization, to the world of theoretical optimization, where he couldn't possibly win. Doesn't really seem fair, does it?

Best of luck anyway, though I doubt you'll need it.

[Metahuman1]

Unfortunately, you're right.

? I though you could use all your ranged feats on a full attack action?

Or is there an extra feat in the Manyshot line to use it on a full attack?

[ddude987]

? I though you could use all your ranged feats on a full attack action?

Or is there an extra feat in the Manyshot line to use it on a full attack?

afaik 3.5 does not have this. The extra feat for manyshot just allows precision damage on every attack. Also there is no PA for bows either.

[Yora]

If the "20th level monk" actually has just a couple of monk levels, than the whole issue of the monk class being garbage becomes moot. I don't think anyone ever claimed that you can't make really good characters that have one or two levels of monk.

[Gereo]

also, just get something (anything) with a ranged attack and a fly speed.

Oh gods, he'll have an aneurism! A Druid once pulled this on him.

[Amnestic]

If the "20th level monk" actually has just a couple of monk levels, than the whole issue of the monk class being garbage becomes moot. I don't think anyone ever claimed that you can't make really good characters that have one or two levels of monk.

Concurred. I'd argue that if he's claiming a 20 level monk build, it should be 20 levels of monk. Monk dips are notorious for being good (along with Paladins).

Conversely, I'd go against it with 20 levels of a single class - no PrCs, no Multiclassing. If the exercise you wish to engage in is to show that the monk is not a good base class, beating it with multiple base classes is the way to go in my eyes. Grab yourself a Tier 1 or Tier 2 class and go to town?

[Gereo]

The real question:

If we help you then don't you automatically lose the bet?

Hmm, point...Though the whole excercise is a bit spoiled now because he actually showed me his build and it is, in fact, 10 monk/ 10 ssn...He seems to think he'll only his maneuvers once per encounter and he wasted feats in a feat starved class.

Also the rules, as they stand, are:

1. Anything goes, save homebrew and "crafted" magic items.

2. Must contain at least 10 levels of the "boasted" class.

[Gotterdammerung]

Personally, I would play a

Anything 5/Ghost template class 1/ Uncanny trickster 2 (raising Ghost template class features to 2nd lvl)/Master of the unseen hand 5/ Uncanny trickster 1 (raising the class features of master of the unseen hand to 6)/Legacy champion 6 (raising the class features of master of the unseen hand to level 11)

Your Caster level 30 Supernatural telekinesis and the enhanced capabilities of telekinesis from MotUH give you everything you need to destroy most melee champions. And the defensive capabilities from your ghosty tricks are pretty strong. Especially if you enhance them with some optimization. The SAD nature of the build (con is - and str is unused, cha is only important stat, plenty left over for high dex and good other stats) and very low feat requirement makes it easy to focus on initiative. You could even support going first via your 5 anything levels. Wu jen for instance has a trick to roll 2 initiative rolls.
Or you could get tricky and do 2 lvls of dungeoncrasher fighter for some interesting telekinesis bull rushes.

I can't think of many ways that a shadow sun ninja could defeat this character. He would likely be mind pinned immediately.

[Gereo]

Conversely, I'd go against it with 20 levels of a single class - no PrCs, no Multiclassing. If the exercise you wish to engage in is to show that the monk is not a good base class, beating it with multiple base classes is the way to go in my eyes. Grab yourself a Tier 1 or Tier 2 class and go to town?

Agreed, exactly what i want to do...on the other hand things like this are often detrimental to party cohesion "oh yeah? well i bet i could beat you with only stuff from the cores!" yada yada yada...
I've got to learn to keep my mouth shut and enjoy the game.

[The Boz]

10 levels of boasted class? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Fighter 10/Wizard 10. Optimize high initiative with the fighter levels. When combat starts, fly up into the air. Give yourself concealment. Proceed to rain magic missiles or whatever.

[Gereo]

Hahaha, i'm not trying to make him rage-quit just teach him a lesson.

[Icewraith]

Build a better MONK than him, just to show him he doesen't even know what he's talking about when it comes to monks.

[Gereo]

Build a better MONK than him, just to show him he doesen't even know what he's talking about when it comes to monks.

Considered...Also considered an improved unarmed strike fighter build.

[ddude987]

Considered...Also considered an improved unarmed strike fighter build.

This just makes me think of one big burly man and one skinny dude slapping each other back and forth.

[Morbis Meh]

...Water Orc + dungeoncrashing fighter +2 levels of barb then 8 levels of frenzied beserker even when you do die you don't die, well until you come out of your frenzy that is :smallbiggrin:

[Gereo]

This just makes me think of one big burly man and one skinny dude slapping each other back and forth.

^
What i think of when our monk fights a vampire.

[Gereo]

...Water Orc + dungeoncrashing fighter +2 levels of barb then 8 levels of frenzied beserker even when you do die you don't die, well until you come out of your frenzy that is :smallbiggrin:

A bit like the reverse of a build a had in mind: enduring life+ lasting life+ allow him to deal all the neg levels he wants+ wait for his mad minute to be up+ laugh when his con drops to -3.

[Elricaltovilla]

Fighter 10/ Wizard 10

Quicken Metamagic Rod

Turn 1: Cast Wall of Force and Quickened Cloudkill so that Monkboy and the cloudkill are trapped inside the Wall of Force.

Turn 2: point and laugh at him.

[Karnith]

Turn 1: Cast Wall of Force and Quickened Cloudkill so that Monkboy and the cloudkill are trapped inside the Wall of Force.
While I don't know what this particular monk's levels are, a monk 20 wouldn't be particularly harmed by this particular tactic, as they're immune to poisons and have Dimension Door as a class feature.

EDIT: Also, like Glyphstone said, unless you're trapping them in a corner or something they could just walk around it.

[The Glyphstone]

Fighter 10/ Wizard 10

Quicken Metamagic Rod

Turn 1: Cast Wall of Force and Quickened Cloudkill so that Monkboy and the cloudkill are trapped inside the Wall of Force.

Turn 2: point and laugh at him.

You can't trap someone inside a single Wall of Force, it's a Wall. You need Forcecage to pull off this trick, which a Wiz10 cannot do.

[Deaxsa]

Someone's sig is about an optimized intimidate CW samurai. I think it's single-classed. And it is seen as probably the weakest pc class in the game. Kill him with that.

[Pickford]

10 levels of boasted class? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Fighter 10/Wizard 10. Optimize high initiative with the fighter levels. When combat starts, fly up into the air. Give yourself concealment. Proceed to rain magic missiles or whatever.

Ring of Spell Turning; Rod of Absorption; Brooch of Shielding; Diamond Soul;

Wouldn't any of those four things (one of which is innate to a monk, the others easily purchased) stop that tactic cold?

edit: You also mentioned at least 3 spell casts...

What do you do if the Monk has Sun School and abundant steps to Freezing the Lifeblood/Stunning Fist/Quivering Palms you?

[Karnith]

Someone's sig is about an optimized intimidate CW samurai. I think it's single-classed. And it is seen as probably the weakest pc class in the game. Kill him with that.
Ah yes, Shneekey's Takahashi no Onisan (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=153726), proving that real optimizers use Samurai (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125885).

Though he was actually a Samurai/Rogue/Exemplar/Ronin.

[Elricaltovilla]

You can't trap someone inside a single Wall of Force, it's a Wall. You need Forcecage to pull off this trick, which a Wiz10 cannot do.


A wall of force spell creates an invisible wall of force. The wall cannot move, it is immune to damage of all kinds, and it is unaffected by most spells, including dispel magic. However, disintegrate immediately destroys it, as does a rod of cancellation, a sphere of annihilation, or a mage’s disjunction spell. Breath weapons and spells cannot pass through the wall in either direction, although dimension door, teleport, and similar effects can bypass the barrier. It blocks ethereal creatures as well as material ones (though ethereal creatures can usually get around the wall by floating under or over it through material floors and ceilings). Gaze attacks can operate through a wall of force.

The caster can form the wall into a flat, vertical plane whose area is up to one 10- foot square per level. The wall must be continuous and unbroken when formed. If its surface is broken by any object or creature, the spell fails.

The SRD doesn't say that the wall has to be a straight line, so you can make the wall into a cube if you need to. It's 10 square feet per level, and you can use most of these (http://www.uen.org/Lessonplan/preview.cgi?LPid=16274) patterns to make sure that the wall is unbroken when you shape it into a cube.

It's worked for me before.

And according to OP it's a monk with 10 levels of Shadowsun Ninja, so I think it's safe to assume his opponent isn't a 20th level monk

[zlefin]

I agree that the challenge was vs things you could engineer; not vs what the community here can make.
Ask your friend if he's willing to face some of the nastier optimized things the outside community has developed. If so i'll be glad to help.

Second: what is the location and starting situation for the fight?

[The Glyphstone]

The SRD doesn't say that the wall has to be a straight line, so you can make the wall into a cube if you need to. It's 10 square feet per level, and you can use most of these (http://www.uen.org/Lessonplan/preview.cgi?LPid=16274) patterns to make sure that the wall is unbroken when you shape it into a cube.

It's worked for me before.

And according to OP it's a monk with 10 levels of Shadowsun Ninja, so I think it's safe to assume his opponent isn't a 20th level monk

That still doesn't block the roof....it explicitly says Vertical, so no matter what geometrical tricks you use, you can't block the ceiling or the floor, so he can jump/dig out of the box.

[Karnith]

The SRD doesn't say that the wall has to be a straight line, so you can make the wall into a cube if you need to.
Per the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wallOfForce.htm):

The caster can form the wall into a flat, vertical plane whose area is up to one 10-foot square per level. The wall must be continuous and unbroken when formed. If its surface is broken by any object or creature, the spell fails.
(Emphasis mine)

Since the wall of force must take the form of "a flat, vertical plane," you actually do need the wall to be in a straight "line," and you cannot trap someone with it unless you are trapping them into some other area (say, the corner of a room).

[Elricaltovilla]

Then do it with wall of stone. You can probably keep casting it until its too thick for him to sunder.

But I thought up an even better build: fighter 10/diplomancer 10

Round 1: I roll for diplomacy. *rolls absurdly high diplomacy* monk becomes fanatically loyal and surrenders immediately.

[Eldest]

Ring of Spell Turning; Rod of Absorption; Brooch of Shielding; Diamond Soul;

Wouldn't any of those four things (one of which is innate to a monk, the others easily purchased) stop that tactic cold?

edit: You also mentioned at least 3 spell casts...

What do you do if the Monk has Sun School and abundant steps to Freezing the Lifeblood/Stunning Fist/Quivering Palms you?

As you discovered in our duel, you need to be able to find the other character first. Further, you get one teleportation per day, unless you spend gold on it (which is a valid tactic) or get teleportation maneuvers. Finally, you need to be able to hit, in spite of the concealment and any other miss chances, as well as the AC.

[Shining Wrath]

If he considers SS / SSN to be a "Monk build" I think you are fully justified in treating a Warblade as a "Fighter". And a 20th level Warblade with an appropriate choice of Iron Heart and Diamond Mind maneuvers is going to be something he's not going to enjoy.

Him: Does whatever.

You: OTOO 250 HP and have Iron Heart Focus and DM series to avoid conditions. You survive easily. Then: Time Stands Still. With a really big sword with lots of pluses. You hit him several times for double-digit or even triple-digit damage each time.

If he's still standing after a 20th level WB unleashes TSS he's not a monk, he's a tarrasque in a robe.

[Zombulian]

afaik 3.5 does not have this. The extra feat for manyshot just allows precision damage on every attack. Also there is no PA for bows either.

That's what Hank's Bow is for.
Duh.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061227a

[Fouredged Sword]

Warforged charger, Warforged charger HD 4 / fighter 2 / warforged juggernaut 10.

Eat the 4 LA

You are now immune to everything he could throw at you. Punch him in the face with three slams a turn, unarmed strikes, and armor spikes as an off hand weapon.

[Elricaltovilla]

What's the modifier on a bluff roll to convince someone they're dead? I have a 10th level bard build somewhere that has a +50 ish to bluff... although its pathfinder based (and requires being a dwarf :smalltongue:)

[Zombulian]

Even though this thread is dedicated to helping the man *fighting* the monk. I don't think I am rooting for either of you. Arrogance battles are dumb yo.

[Pickford]

As you discovered in our duel, you need to be able to find the other character first. Further, you get one teleportation per day, unless you spend gold on it (which is a valid tactic) or get teleportation maneuvers. Finally, you need to be able to hit, in spite of the concealment and any other miss chances, as well as the AC.

Right, but I'm saying "round 1: he casts fly", he's not invisible yet. Thus the monk, on his turn, could do that.

And goggles of constant see invisibility are only about 12k iirc, true seeing wouldn't be much more expensive.

Edit: Also it depends on the circumstances of the duel. It may be they don't allow pre-buffing, which drastically reduces the capabilities of the Wizard imo.

[Telonius]

Human Fighter, Strength-focused.
Feats:
1: Improved Unarmed Strike
1(Human): Stunning Fist
1(Fighter): Power Attack*
2(Fighter): Improved Grapple
3: Deflect Arrows
4(Fighter): Improved Disarm
6: Combat Reflexes
6(Fighter): Improved Trip
8(Fighter): Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike)
9: Weapon Specialization (Unarmed Strike)
10(Fighter): Greater Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike)
12: Greater Weapon Specialization (Unarmed Strike)
12(Fighter): Melee Weapon Mastery (Bludgeoning)
14 (Fighter): Martial Study (Wall of Blades)**
15 Superior Unarmed Strike
16 (Fighter): Martial Study: Overwhelming Mountain Strike
18: Martial Stance: Roots of the Mountain
18 (Fighter): Weapon Supremacy
20 (Fighter): Robilar's Gambit

*If you think he's going to be using Elusive Target (which is a very reasonable supposition in this setup) you can change it out to something different.
*Note: a strict reading of this will require you to carry some sort of melee weapon. Any one-handed weapon will do.

With this setup, you will be doing a base damage of 2d6 (from Superior Unarmed) + Str + 2 (Specialization) + 2 (Greater Specialization) + 2 (Weapon Mastery) = 2d6+Str+6. You'll have an attack bonus of 20(BAB)+Str+1(Weapon Focus)+1(greater weapon Focus)+2(weapon mastery)=24+Str.

For your equipment, a +1 Heavy Fortification armor (pick it based on your Dex), to negate stunning fist and quivering palm, which don't apply if you're immune to critical hits. Stat boosters for Strength, Constitution, etc. Necklace of Natural Attacks or Amulet of Mighty Fists to make those unarmed strikes magical.

[dascarletm]

This just makes me think of one big burly man and one skinny dude slapping each other back and forth.

Or it makes you think of....
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4596580/ip_man_2_2010_fantastic_end_fight_action/

[Arcanist]

If he's still standing after a 20th level Warblade unleashes Time Stands Still he's not a monk, he's a Tarrasque in a robe.

I think this much can be said for any character :smallconfused:

[Shining Wrath]

Human Fighter, Strength-focused.
Feats:
1: Improved Unarmed Strike
1(Human): Stunning Fist
1(Fighter): Power Attack*
2(Fighter): Improved Grapple
3: Deflect Arrows
4(Fighter): Improved Disarm
6: Combat Reflexes
6(Fighter): Improved Trip
8(Fighter): Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike)
9: Weapon Specialization (Unarmed Strike)
10(Fighter): Greater Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike)
12: Greater Weapon Specialization (Unarmed Strike)
12(Fighter): Melee Weapon Mastery (Bludgeoning)
14 (Fighter): Martial Study (Wall of Blades)**
15 Superior Unarmed Strike
16 (Fighter): Martial Study: Overwhelming Mountain Strike
18: Martial Stance: Roots of the Mountain
18 (Fighter): Weapon Supremacy
20 (Fighter): Robilar's Gambit

*If you think he's going to be using Elusive Target (which is a very reasonable supposition in this setup) you can change it out to something different.
*Note: a strict reading of this will require you to carry some sort of melee weapon. Any one-handed weapon will do.

With this setup, you will be doing a base damage of 2d6 (from Superior Unarmed) + Str + 2 (Specialization) + 2 (Greater Specialization) + 2 (Weapon Mastery) = 2d6+Str+6. You'll have an attack bonus of 20(BAB)+Str+1(Weapon Focus)+1(greater weapon Focus)+2(weapon mastery)=24+Str.

For your equipment, a +1 Heavy Fortification armor (pick it based on your Dex), to negate stunning fist and quivering palm, which don't apply if you're immune to critical hits. Stat boosters for Strength, Constitution, etc. Necklace of Natural Attacks or Amulet of Mighty Fists to make those unarmed strikes magical.

Given that SSN can inflict Dazzled alternating with darkness, Blind Fighting feat seems essential.

[Telonius]

Ah, good point - maybe swap out Blind Fight for Power Attack or one of the Stone Dragon martial studies then.

[Zombulian]

Given that SSN can inflict Dazzled alternating with darkness, Blind Fighting feat seems essential.

How about we KICK THINGS UP A NOTCH? Soulknife instead of Fighter. Go jedi up in here.

[Immabozo]

pun-pun, GG?

[dascarletm]

Go "criticam infinita" build.


Criticam Infinita
Fighter 10, Disiple of Dispater 10. Human

Get dual wielded kukris roundabout kick, and improved critical (Kukri), and lightning mace.

flavor the rest of the feats to suit this.

Item:
Swift action Items that give you teleports.
Aptitude enchantment so kuks can be used with lightning mace
Add burst effects to your kukris.

Threat to crit on a roll of 9-20. Every crit procs 2 extra hits, which can proc more hits.

See Build:http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Critical_Master_%283.5e_Optimized_Character_Build% 29

[WhatBigTeeth]

By level 20, Divine Mind can mix Temporal Acceleration, Metamorphosis, Metamorphic Transfer, Anticipatory Strike and Astral Constructs whose numbers probably outdo the Monk's, once you consider the DM's auras.

If the other guy knows the DM's rep, it'd be a hilarious and fairly easy way of approaching this.

[lord_khaine]

The real question:

If we help you then don't you automatically lose the bet?

I agree on this one, the OP has allready lost the bet considering it was what HE could build.

[Telonius]

I agree on this one, the OP has allready lost the bet considering it was what HE could build.

I don't know, I think we count as "companions," right? :smallbiggrin:

[Gnome Alone]

Maybe so... but how hilarious would it be if the half-monk guy is getting similar help from the Minmax boards or something. Battle of the Optimization Ringers.

Also, people, for the love of pants, the build has to have at least Fighter 10.

[Telonius]

Maybe so... but how hilarious would it be if the half-monk guy is getting similar help from the Minmax boards or something. Battle of the Optimization Ringers.

This could have hilarious results if true. He'll pull out some sort of tentacled eldritch horror that's somehow got a level or three of Monk... yeah, I think we all need to hear how the duel goes afterwards.

[Threadnaught]

I'd like a crack at you two. Should I go Wizard, Druid or Monk (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Ultimate_Monk_(3.5e_Optimized_Character_Build))?

Either way, you guys are dead.

[Pickford]

Human Fighter, Strength-focused.
Feats:
1: Improved Unarmed Strike
1(Human): Stunning Fist
1(Fighter): Power Attack*
2(Fighter): Improved Grapple
3: Deflect Arrows
4(Fighter): Improved Disarm
6: Combat Reflexes
6(Fighter): Improved Trip
8(Fighter): Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike)
9: Weapon Specialization (Unarmed Strike)
10(Fighter): Greater Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike)
12: Greater Weapon Specialization (Unarmed Strike)
12(Fighter): Melee Weapon Mastery (Bludgeoning)
14 (Fighter): Martial Study (Wall of Blades)**
15 Superior Unarmed Strike
16 (Fighter): Martial Study: Overwhelming Mountain Strike
18: Martial Stance: Roots of the Mountain
18 (Fighter): Weapon Supremacy
20 (Fighter): Robilar's Gambit

*If you think he's going to be using Elusive Target (which is a very reasonable supposition in this setup) you can change it out to something different.
*Note: a strict reading of this will require you to carry some sort of melee weapon. Any one-handed weapon will do.

With this setup, you will be doing a base damage of 2d6 (from Superior Unarmed) + Str + 2 (Specialization) + 2 (Greater Specialization) + 2 (Weapon Mastery) = 2d6+Str+6. You'll have an attack bonus of 20(BAB)+Str+1(Weapon Focus)+1(greater weapon Focus)+2(weapon mastery)=24+Str.

For your equipment, a +1 Heavy Fortification armor (pick it based on your Dex), to negate stunning fist and quivering palm, which don't apply if you're immune to critical hits. Stat boosters for Strength, Constitution, etc. Necklace of Natural Attacks or Amulet of Mighty Fists to make those unarmed strikes magical.

You can't get stunning fist at 1st level, it requires BAB +8.
Improved Trip requires Combat Expertise.

Side note: Power Attack...but nothing that builds on it. Why?
You could pick up Flying Kick, though that's better suited to a Drunken Master; or Combat Brute, Shock Trooper, or pick up Blood-Spiked Charger

[lord_khaine]

I don't know, I think we count as "companions," right?

I am pretty sure we count as the internet :smallwink:


Maybe so... but how hilarious would it be if the half-monk guy is getting similar help from the Minmax boards or something. Battle of the Optimization Ringers.

It would be hilarious, but i dont think its the case here considering the monk guy is going monk10/SSN10.
Thats not a build the OP should need help dealing with, and imo he is atm trying to cheat in that contest.

[TiaC]

Fighter 10/Ur-Priest 10
Go to Town.

[Arcanist]

Fighter 10/Ur-Priest 10
Go to Town.

It is sad that this is considered a Gish, by all definitions... :smallfrown:

[Wings of Peace]

I bet no one is killing him as a flying cowbow yet. Go Fighter/Disciple of Dispater/Whatever you want, pickup a pair of Hand Crossbows with the Aptitude enchantment, take Lightning Mace and Handcrossbow Focus, smoke him like you're the Marlboro Man.

Edit: Whatever you do, don't forget that pounce can be purchased for 300gp with a Crawling Tattoo (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/universalItems.htm#crawlingTattoos) of Psionic Lion's Charge.

Edit 2: The benefit to using Hand Crossbows over Kukris is not only the range difference but the fact you can enchant them with Splitting.

[Vaz]

Half Elf Commoner 20; Wild Cohort, 6x Skill Focus Speak Language, Truenaming, Control Shape, Lucid Dreaming, Craft: Basketweaving, Craft; Underwater Basketweaving.

[Arc_knight25]

I think sticking with going to level 20 with any of the classes that are the same tier or tier above his monk should suffice. If that doesn't seem like enough and if his monk is going to be doing ability and negative levels, go the full 10 levels of Palemaster from LM and become immune to such attacks. All you need is to be able to cast Animate dead and vampiric touch, Skill focus: religion and 8 ranks have in religion.

[Threadnaught]

He asserts that his 20th lvl monk build can defeat any equal leveled character that my companions and i can engineer.

Okay, he's using a Monk Build, so basically, plays like Monk, but could be made from any number of classes.


i would defeat him with a single-classed fighter...

Your build is Fighter 20. No other Class allowed, you and your companions/other players may choose whatever you want as far as races, feats and weapons are concerned, but you may not multi-class or you forfeit the bet.
Also I'm not giving you any advice because I'm not gonna help you lose by default. You said it's something you could do, you told your friend that you could beat him. However you're here asking us for help, are you saying you can't do it? If you go to fight his build with something you were given here, why don't you let him know that you failed?

If you need our help against his build so much, why don't you share it with us so we can find all it's weaknesses and attempt to kill it with a Commoner?

[Hyde]

Fighter 20 (or 19, since there's technically no +LA but no one agrees with it) Necropolitan.

"Stunning Fi-
Negative Le-
Con Dra-

Well, crap. "

But seriously. Why would you need our help? Rule #12 around here is "If someone says they have a monk that can beat any build ever, they clearly understand nothing, and not found something everyone has previously missed."

I'm going to stand by the sentiment of "You might win the battle, but have lost the war".

[Zombulian]

I bet no one is killing him as a flying cowbow yet. Go Fighter/Disciple of Dispater/Whatever you want, pickup a pair of Hand Crossbows with the Aptitude enchantment, take Lightning Mace and Handcrossbow Focus, smoke him like you're the Marlboro Man.

Edit: Whatever you do, don't forget that pounce can be purchased for 300gp with a Crawling Tattoo (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/universalItems.htm#crawlingTattoos) of Psionic Lion's Charge.

Edit 2: The benefit to using Hand Crossbows over Kukris is not only the range difference but the fact you can enchant them with Splitting.

Wouldn't you just use a regular Psionic Tattoo? A crawling tattoo would run at him and give *the monk* pounce.

[Elricaltovilla]

I still think the best way to win the fight is without having to throw a punch. Hence why I suggested Diplomacy or Bluff. What does it matter what your build is when you can make your opponent fanatically loyal to you or convince them that their pants are on fire with just one roll of the dice?

I highly doubt the monk guy maximized his Sense Motive skill.

[Amnestic]

I still think the best way to win the fight is without having to throw a punch. Hence why I suggested Diplomacy or Bluff. What does it matter what your build is when you can make your opponent fanatically loyal to you or convince them that their pants are on fire with just one roll of the dice?

I highly doubt the monk guy maximized his Sense Motive skill.

Some DMs aren't a huge fan of social skills on other players, so that'd need to be cleared with them first.

Though, frankly, at 20th level when Dominate Monster/Mind Rape and that sort of stuff is available, Diplomancing is probably the least squicky option for influencing another player.

[rockdeworld]

Whatever happens, will you post the results? I want to read them.

[Elricaltovilla]

Some DMs aren't a huge fan of social skills on other players, so that'd need to be cleared with them first.

Though, frankly, at 20th level when Dominate Monster/Mind Rape and that sort of stuff is available, Diplomancing is probably the least squicky option for influencing another player.

Well I'd personally like some clarification on that front too, but I don't see why it wouldn't be allowed. It's a PVP scenario, so if I was DM (or refereeing?) it, I'd be inclined to treat each character just like an NPC with regards to class abilities, spells etc.

[Krobar]

Well I'd personally like some clarification on that front too, but I don't see why it wouldn't be allowed. It's a PVP scenario, so if I was DM (or refereeing?) it, I'd be inclined to treat each character just like an NPC with regards to class abilities, spells etc.

Agreed. As DM, I would definitely let the social skills like bluff, diplomacy, intimidate, etc. work against players in a PVP situation.

[Threadnaught]

Why would you need our help? Rule #12 around here is "If someone says they have a monk that can beat any build ever, they clearly understand nothing, and not found something everyone has previously missed."

The claim isn't that the Monk build can beat any build ever, it's that it can beat any build the group can come up with. The possibilities are more severely limited.

I'd let the social skills work in this scenario. Though I have no idea how they'd help, you need to spend at least a full round action to make a Diplomacy check, at a -10 penalty. If your Monk is smart, he'll go into combat mode and start smacking the Fighter around before the Fighter can finish his argument. It'll be even worse if the Fighter doesn't rush his argument, that's ten full round actions while being thrown around. Bluff would be much better, but how do you use it to kill a Monk?


I'm totally not your enemy and you should totally turn around, I'm totally not gonna stab you in the back or try to kill you. I totally want you to live.

K, then the Fighter stabs the Monk and the Monk turns around and kills the Fighter? The Fighter may totally not be the Monk's enemy and may totally have wanted to totally help the Monk, but if the Monk's enemies had controlled the Fighter and he couldn't stop them, the Monk would put the Fighter (who's totally the Monk's friend) out of his misery.

So there you go, better to focus on a combat focused build, rather than one that would make the Monk cry after winning.


Also, guys... To be able to Diplomance/Bluff his way to victory, the Fighter must rely on the Monk succeeding on a Listen check of 15 (+1 per 10 feet.), that's likely to be a 25DC on the first round and if the Monk is throwing stuff at the Fighter, that'll increase it by +5-15 per object thrown but not destroyed. It's entirely possible that Listen is just as ignored as Sense Motive.

[ddude987]

Agreed. As DM, I would definitely let the social skills like bluff, diplomacy, intimidate, etc. work against players in a PVP situation.

Then OP should play diplomancer and no save mind control the monk... seems completely fair to me.

[Hyde]

The claim isn't that the Monk build can beat any build ever, it's that it can beat any build the group can come up with. The possibilities are more severely limited.


I'd be willing to put money on the number of builds the group can come up with is contained within the set of "any build ever" and doesn't really have any bearing on the wording of the "rule" referenced.

[Pickford]

Agreed. As DM, I would definitely let the social skills like bluff, diplomacy, intimidate, etc. work against players in a PVP situation.

Yeah, except you can't take 10 on them being threatened and since they take 1 minute the person has to be willing to listen (maybe they aren't), intimidate and bluff have specific combat functions, diplomacy does not.

[HurinTheCursed]

Originally Posted by Telonius
Human Fighter, Strength-focused.
Feats:
1: Improved Unarmed Strike
1(Human): Stunning Fist
1(Fighter): Power Attack*
2(Fighter): Improved Grapple
3: Deflect Arrows
4(Fighter): Improved Disarm
6: Combat Reflexes
6(Fighter): Improved Trip
8(Fighter): Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike)
9: Weapon Specialization (Unarmed Strike)
10(Fighter): Greater Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike)
12: Greater Weapon Specialization (Unarmed Strike)
12(Fighter): Melee Weapon Mastery (Bludgeoning)
14 (Fighter): Martial Study (Wall of Blades)**
15 Superior Unarmed Strike
16 (Fighter): Martial Study: Overwhelming Mountain Strike
18: Martial Stance: Roots of the Mountain
18 (Fighter): Weapon Supremacy
20 (Fighter): Robilar's Gambit

*If you think he's going to be using Elusive Target (which is a very reasonable supposition in this setup) you can change it out to something different.
*Note: a strict reading of this will require you to carry some sort of melee weapon. Any one-handed weapon will do.

With this setup, you will be doing a base damage of 2d6 (from Superior Unarmed) + Str + 2 (Specialization) + 2 (Greater Specialization) + 2 (Weapon Mastery) = 2d6+Str+6. You'll have an attack bonus of 20(BAB)+Str+1(Weapon Focus)+1(greater weapon Focus)+2(weapon mastery)=24+Str.

For your equipment, a +1 Heavy Fortification armor (pick it based on your Dex), to negate stunning fist and quivering palm, which don't apply if you're immune to critical hits. Stat boosters for Strength, Constitution, etc. Necklace of Natural Attacks or Amulet of Mighty Fists to make those unarmed strikes magical.

You can't get stunning fist at 1st level, it requires BAB +8.
Improved Trip requires Combat Expertise.

Side note: Power Attack...but nothing that builds on it. Why?
You could pick up Flying Kick, though that's better suited to a Drunken Master; or Combat Brute, Shock Trooper, or pick up Blood-Spiked Charger
I enjoy the idea of following fully what you agreed on even if he didn't. I'd have proposed a L-sized chain tripper but I love even more the idea of beating his "monk" with a L20 "monk" fighter

[Susano-wo]

gonna 4th or 5th the people saying that this is poor form, at best.
This isn't what you can come up with, this is cheating. You, or even you and your companions(though I read that as any build any one of you could come up with, I can see the interpretation that its any build that you all can come up with)

And in any case, you claimed fighter 20. That means, just make a fighter20 build that you think can beat his monk build. If you really thought he meant monk 20 rather than a monk build not necessarily having only monk, than do a fighter build of 10 fighter levels or more.

[CIDE]

I agree on this one, the OP has allready lost the bet considering it was what HE could build.

Monk lost first by y'know...not building a monk.



It would be hilarious, but i dont think its the case here considering the monk guy is going monk10/SSN10.
Thats not a build the OP should need help dealing with, and imo he is atm trying to cheat in that contest.


He never specified that it was 10/10. Just that SSN was in there. For all we know there's only two levels of monk and the rest is some absurb USS/SSN/???? build.

Either way that's not a monk in the spirit of the bet.




Fighter 20 (or 19, since there's technically no +LA but no one agrees with it) Necropolitan.

"Stunning Fi-
Negative Le-
Con Dra-

Well, crap. "

But seriously. Why would you need our help? Rule #12 around here is "If someone says they have a monk that can beat any build ever, they clearly understand nothing, and not found something everyone has previously missed."

I'm going to stand by the sentiment of "You might win the battle, but have lost the war".

Instead of Necropolitan use Curst. The monk could never, ever, ever, ever touch it. Even with an LA of +3.


Whatever happens, will you post the results? I want to read them.

Seconded.



--------------------------------------------

Now, my own personal suggestion is the Curst template. And WOTC has allowed D20 future material for D&D (DM of course has final say) and rules have the magic items/tech being interchangable even if no rules were officially printed on how to actually make them. Regardless, there is a cost for the items known as Power Cestus that is basically metal gauntlets that for all intents and purposes increase your unarmed strike damage by 4 size categories if you have feats to use unarmed strikes. Include Superior Unarmed strike, monks belt, etc. Basically, beat him as an unarmed fighter.

That way you can add insult to injury.

[Gereo]

gonna 4th or 5th the people saying that this is poor form, at best.
This isn't what you can come up with, this is cheating. You, or even you and your companions(though I read that as any build any one of you could come up with, I can see the interpretation that its any build that you all can come up with)

And in any case, you claimed fighter 20. That means, just make a fighter20 build that you think can beat his monk build. If you really thought he meant monk 20 rather than a monk build not necessarily having only monk, than do a fighter build of 10 fighter levels or more.

:smallredface:Ok, I humbly bow to decorum, i shall revert to my original design. I still don't think i'll come too close to death. Thanks all for the advice, (and the admonishments, if we can't trust our fellow gamers to give the blunt truth than who can we trust?) and i shall post the builds and the results in a later thread.

[Susano-wo]

I think you will find said victory much more gratifying :smallbiggrin:


Hmm, point...Though the whole excercise is a bit spoiled now because he actually showed me his build and it is, in fact, 10 monk/ 10 ssn...He seems to think he'll only his maneuvers once per encounter and he wasted feats in a feat starved class.

Also the rules, as they stand, are:

1. Anything goes, save homebrew and "crafted" magic items.

2. Must contain at least 10 levels of the "boasted" class.

SO yeah, I he did say MNK10/SSN10 :smallamused:

[rockdeworld]

It's worth noting that SSN is a +1 tier PRC, so that opponent isn't really a "monk build" for purposes of that party member's claim or how you should treat it in a fight. It's tier 4, on the same level as Dungeoncrasher and Zhentarum Fighter.

[Threadnaught]

Monk lost first by y'know...not building a monk.


He never specified that it was 10/10. Just that SSN was in there. For all we know there's only two levels of monk and the rest is some absurb USS/SSN/???? build.


Either way that's not a monk in the spirit of the bet.

In the spirit of the bet? It's a Monk Build, not a Pure Monk. He's not saying his Monk20 can kill anything ever created ever, he's just under the belief that the rest of the group are unable to come up with another build to counter his. And seeing how the guy who made the biggest claim came running to us for help, it looks like he's probably correct.

Half of these claims to the Monk player's totally obvious loss, are because it isn't a Pure Monk. The rest are claiming that he's lost due to using the Monk at all.
Then the suggestions for this guy's build, half of them are about how the Fighter should not be a pure Fighter, which totally wouldn't forfeit his claim. With no sense of irony.
The other half, try to keep the build as Fighter20 based on the original claim by the OP and some even claim that the Fighter has lost due to seeking outside help.

Can I bring in my Kobold Wizard1 build?
His name's Pun Pun.

[Amnestic]

Half of these claims to the Monk player's totally obvious loss, are because it isn't a Pure Monk.

If you're boasting about a monk build, the power should come from a monk - if it comes from using feats to get into a PrC that grants it most of its power, then it's not really a "monk build" anymore, is it?

You can have monk builds without Monk 20, but Monk should be the main part of it. It should be the focal point and the main power source. Else, it's not a 'monk build', it's a 'Shadow Sun Ninja' build, no?

[Threadnaught]

If you're boasting about a monk build, the power should come from a monk - if it comes from using feats to get into a PrC that grants it most of its power, then it's not really a "monk build" anymore, is it?

You can have monk builds without Monk 20, but Monk should be the main part of it. It should be the focal point and the main power source. Else, it's not a 'monk build', it's a 'Shadow Sun Ninja' build, no?

So what!? So, you're just quibbling over the use of the word "Monk"?

It could just be Gereo's choice of words. And even then, this may be what the Monk guy thinks when someone mentions Monks. Not everyone thinks of every Monk ever as being Friar Tuck. Some people think Monks are more like SSJ4 Gogeta. Both are right.
I'm referring to character concepts btw, not the actual class.

[Amnestic]

So what!? So, you're just quibbling over the use of the word "Monk"?

...yes? When people boast about the strength of a build, it sort of helps when the name they give the build is actually representative of the final product. If I were to post how amazing my Paladin build is when it was Paladin 2/Cleric 18 (or something equally silly)



I'm referring to character concepts btw, not the actual class.

Well that's sort of unfortunate since generally 'build' refers to mechanics and thus are based around the actual classes. Again, if I were to post how amazing my "Paladin build" (actually Cleric 20) is, people would probably point out that my language is deceptive.

[Shining Wrath]

If you're boasting about a monk build, the power should come from a monk - if it comes from using feats to get into a PrC that grants it most of its power, then it's not really a "monk build" anymore, is it?

You can have monk builds without Monk 20, but Monk should be the main part of it. It should be the focal point and the main power source. Else, it's not a 'monk build', it's a 'Shadow Sun Ninja' build, no?

Eh, SSN is obviously supposed to be a post-Monk PrC. It's like complaining about going from Paladin into Cavalier.

[lord_khaine]

Eh, SSN is obviously supposed to be a post-Monk PrC. It's like complaining about going from Paladin into Cavalier.

Yeah, especaly when he is going pure monk into SSN.

[Zombulian]

Yeah, especaly when he is going pure monk into SSN.

Monk 10 *is* pretty gimped.

[Telonius]

You can't get stunning fist at 1st level, it requires BAB +8.
Improved Trip requires Combat Expertise.

Side note: Power Attack...but nothing that builds on it. Why?
You could pick up Flying Kick, though that's better suited to a Drunken Master; or Combat Brute, Shock Trooper, or pick up Blood-Spiked Charger

Wow, that'll learn me to post a years-old half of a build that hadn't been fully vetted... I think the original was posted way back in an actual Giacomonk argument.

The point wasn't to do an optimum amount of damage for a Fighter. That's obviously much greater than the Monk can do. The point was to humiliate the Monk by being better at Monk-ing (i.e. unarmed damage) than the Monk was. Power Attack was there to increase unarmed damage to the point that it exceeded Monk's, at equal attack bonus. The weapon supremacy and Tome of Battle feats do a better job of it, but it's still useful if you want to whack away with a quarterstaff (or greatsword) that you happen to find. Anyway, to fix the prereq issues (and deal with blindness)...

1: Improved Unarmed Strike
1(Human): [Stunning Fist]->Combat Expertise
1(Fighter): [Power Attack*]->Blind Fight
2(Fighter): Improved Grapple
3: Deflect Arrows
4(Fighter): Improved Disarm
6: Combat Reflexes
6(Fighter): Improved Trip
8(Fighter): Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike)
9: Weapon Specialization (Unarmed Strike)
10(Fighter): Greater Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike)
12: Greater Weapon Specialization (Unarmed Strike)
12(Fighter): Melee Weapon Mastery (Bludgeoning)
14 (Fighter): Martial Study (Wall of Blades)**
15 Superior Unarmed Strike
16 (Fighter): [Martial Study: Overwhelming Mountain Strike]->Stunning Fist
18: [Martial Stance: Roots of the Mountain]->Freezing the Lifeblood
18 (Fighter): Weapon Supremacy
20 (Fighter): Robilar's Gambit

[Susano-wo]

probably the last I'll post on it, but yeah, Monk10-prestige class 10 can be called a monk build. its not like he has 2 levels of monk, or is in some kind of crazy combo.
definitely interested in seeing the results, though :smallsmile:

[CombatOwl]

So a dear friend of mine recently made a rather bold claim. He asserts that his 20th lvl monk build can defeat any equal leveled character that my companions and i can engineer. After my mates and i assured him of his utter fantasy, i made a perhaps even more foolhardy claim: that i would defeat him with a single-classed fighter...

Now, ordinarily this would be no issue. I would whip up a (comparatively) glass cannon and wipe the floor with him. But he let slip that he'll be using the Shadow sun ninja PrC from nine swords, and this irks me...The only methods i can think of to counter the ssn's powers seem very much to me like hard counters (see enduring life, lasting life feats from libris mortis) and that feels a bit like cheating.

So what's a gamer with no access to any class but fighter to do? Thoughts?

If this was pathfinder, it would be pretty simple; buy yourself a continual AMF item and go charge him every round that he moves. A single-classed fighter can easily beat a monk in an anti-magic field in pathfinder. Since it's not...

3.5e Fighters have it a lot harder. One option would be to make a ranged fighter. This may sound strange, but his snatch arrows only works on the first shot, and if you manyshot that means he's only able to negate the first arrow on the first hit. I say ranged fighter simply because there are many ways to get fly, and you need the speed increase in order to fight him. It also makes it a lot harder for him to actually hit you, simply because he probably won't take any ranks in fly--and perhaps not even buy the item he needs to do it. Remember; you get a higher ground bonus to hit if you're above him when you fire, that will also help you get around his insane AC. The problem with this, of course, is that you're going to have a hard time hitting him with your iterative attacks.

One of the important things to keep in mind here are the abilities of the shadow sun ninja, and to keep him from cheating with them. First; don't let him hit you. Pump your deflection bonus first, then pump your dex. Find ways to get your touch AC high. Second, buy miss chances--get 50% displacement for a long time through whatever your favorite displacement item is. Automatically forcing him to miss half the time is insanely powerful against a monk. Also, boost your perception through whatever means you prefer as well--the shadow sun ninja has the ability to blind people who fail to detect him when hiding. Don't let him do that. Third, remember that Void of the Shadow Sun grants a deflection bonus--do not let him stack that with the deflection bonus granted by whatever ring of protection he might be wearing. Finally, make damned sure you have some means of curing status effects, and make sure you are immune to level drain through some means or another. There's lots of ways to become immune to level drains, but I guarantee you that he'll be expecting that ability to help him in this fight. Cut that route to victory off. You're a fighter, you can win by attrition if he can't drain your levels. Especially if you can find a way to get fast healing or regeneration. An eternal wand of heal might also come in handy.

I would also point out that the terms of this agreement do not seem to say anything about racial limitations. Pick some outsider race and then progress it as a single class fighter. If you really wanted to be a ****, you could just play a planetar with six levels of fighter, thereby making it a single classed fighter. I suggest a planetar because the DR 10/evil can't be bypassed by the inherently good-aligned shadow sun ninja. It would also grant you spellcasting like a 17th level cleric, despite being a single-classed fighter.

Don't consider it cheating to make a fighter that hard counters him. I mean, he was the one to make the ridiculous claim about being able to beat anyone with a monk.

[Vaern]

For your equipment, a +1 Heavy Fortification armor (pick it based on your Dex), to negate stunning fist and quivering palm, which don't apply if you're immune to critical hits. Stat boosters for Strength, Constitution, etc. Necklace of Natural Attacks or Amulet of Mighty Fists to make those unarmed strikes magical.
And/or use enchanted gauntlets. They're listed in the PHB's weapon table as an unarmed attack, and if they're enchanted and equipped as weapons rather than wondrous items then you should be able to wear them over any other magical gloves you happen to be wearing without spoiling their effects.

[Threadnaught]

Leadership Feat, pump up your Charisma and you should have well over a hundred meat shields. Your Cohort should of course be a Wizard or Cleric. Wizard must have Bugsy's Expressive Single Digit prepared for when the Monk dies. Cleric should just cast Miracle (choose the "I win" option) and you should tell the Monk to leave while you set fire to his character sheet.


Use a gestalt Wizard/Fighter with Grey Elf, that racial feat that gives Int to HP and anything else that gives the Int bonus to stuff.
Hey, it's a Fighter20. It's totally legit.

[lord_khaine]

The point wasn't to do an optimum amount of damage for a Fighter. That's obviously much greater than the Monk can do. The point was to humiliate the Monk by being better at Monk-ing (i.e. unarmed damage) than the Monk was. Power Attack was there to increase unarmed damage to the point that it exceeded Monk's, at equal attack bonus. The weapon supremacy and Tome of Battle feats do a better job of it, but it's still useful if you want to whack away with a quarterstaff (or greatsword) that you happen to find. Anyway, to fix the prereq issues (and deal with blindness)...

Of course, the funny thing here is that in actualy gameplay a monk is going to make that build look useless.


Leadership Feat, pump up your Charisma and you should have well over a hundred meat shields. Your Cohort should of course be a Wizard or Cleric. Wizard must have Bugsy's Expressive Single Digit prepared for when the Monk dies. Cleric should just cast Miracle (choose the "I win" option) and you should tell the Monk to leave while you set fire to his character sheet.


If the only way can win is to resort to leadership cheese, then you have allready admitted defeat.


Use a gestalt Wizard/Fighter with Grey Elf, that racial feat that gives Int to HP and anything else that gives the Int bonus to stuff.
Hey, it's a Fighter20. It's totally legit.

If someone brough a gestalt build to a regular arena duel between 2 players that i was GM'ing, then i would laught at him.
Then i would laught a bit more, and continue laughting for a while, before i would finaly be able to say "No" :smallamused:

[Eldest]

Of course, the funny thing here is that in actualy gameplay a monk is going to make that build look useless.

Ok, now I'm curious. What can a monk do that the fighter build can't? Don't jump straight to specifics like Abundant Step, but more of the general abilities.

[Arcanist]

Ok, now I'm curious. What can a monk do that the fighter build can't? Don't jump straight to specifics like Abundant Step, but more of the general abilities.

Well UMD for one, but even than it's not that much of a boost considering the Fighter can get it with cross class.

[Zombulian]

Well UMD for one, but even than it's not that much of a boost considering the Fighter can get it with cross class.

Or the feat Magical Training...

[Pickford]

And/or use enchanted gauntlets. They're listed in the PHB's weapon table as an unarmed attack, and if they're enchanted and equipped as weapons rather than wondrous items then you should be able to wear them over any other magical gloves you happen to be wearing without spoiling their effects.

Can't use gauntlets as unarmed strikes though, unarmed strikes are attacks made 'without' weapons. (PHB 314)

Monks can flurry Eldest, since there's no attack penalty they can twf for a total of 6 attacks at the same -2 penalty as a fighter twf for 5 attacks.

They can also get more stunning fist uses, quivering palm (yes I know it's 1/week but still), better saves, improved evasion (so better at not dying to aoe), immunity to poison (so they can coat fists/shuriken with high DC poisons), immunity to disease, the ability to self-heal, spell resistance (yeah, it's not a lot, but base SR should be enough to stop ~1/4 of all SR spells). Outsider typing prevents the use of spells targeting 'humanoids' (i.e. no charm person, dominate person, antilife shell, Enlarge person (doh?), Ghoul Touch, hold person, reduce person, etc...)


edit:
for the poison thing: 3 dragon bile poisoned shuriken could incapacitate potentially anyone. Fighter at 20 would have trouble making the Fort save.

edit2:
And the monk's stunning fist is basically guaranteed to be better than the fighters... (monk wanting a very high Wisdom for AC/DC)

[Eldest]

Can't use gauntlets as unarmed strikes though, unarmed strikes are attacks made 'without' weapons. (PHB 314)

Monks can flurry Eldest, since there's no attack penalty they can twf for a total of 6 attacks at the same -2 penalty as a fighter twf for 5 attacks.

They can also get more stunning fist uses, quivering palm (yes I know it's 1/week but still), better saves, improved evasion (so better at not dying to aoe), immunity to poison (so they can coat fists/shuriken with high DC poisons), immunity to disease, the ability to self-heal, spell resistance (yeah, it's not a lot, but base SR should be enough to stop ~1/4 of all SR spells). Outsider typing prevents the use of spells targeting 'humanoids' (i.e. no charm person, dominate person, antilife shell, Enlarge person (doh?), Ghoul Touch, hold person, reduce person, etc...)

I should rephrase. What strategy (long term) or tactic (short term) can the Monk pursue that the Fighter cannot? Because Lord Khaine stated that an actual Monk would make the monkish Fighter look useless, and I was asking for clarification.

However, one thing that was misleading in your post: monks can twf to attack at a -2 for 6 attacks, while fighters can do the same for 5 attacks. However, fighters do have 5 points of BAB on the monk. You might wish to add that into the math.

[lord_khaine]

Ok, now I'm curious. What can a monk do that the fighter build can't? Don't jump straight to specifics like Abundant Step, but more of the general abilities.

To start with the Monk can actualy pick feats to compliment his abilities, or diversify his strategies :smalltongue:

But that aside, then he will be a much better mobile skimisher. Mobility rocks, and it has at least been my experience that a high movespeed is a great asset during both tactical combat and general gameplay.

And he can also be a lot harder to shut down, making him much better suited for annoying creatures and casters with a lot of save-or-lose spells, powers or spelllike abilities, all the way from level 1 to 20.
Because 3 good saves, evasion and SR really does add up to a very solid defence.

[Threadnaught]

If the only way can win is to resort to leadership cheese, then you have allready admitted defeat.QUOTE]

[QUOTE]If someone brough a gestalt build to a regular arena duel between 2 players that i was GM'ing, then i would laught at him.
Then i would laught a bit more, and continue laughting for a while, before i would finaly be able to say "No" :smallamused:

And yet, this is the only help I'll offer the OP. You can tell how seriously I'm taking this fight/thread, if the only help I offer is a joke post.

I seriously hope the Monk kicks his Gestalt Leadership abusing ass. And if he isn't using a Gestalt or Leadership, I hope the Monk wins anyway, I kinda like Monks and dislike Fighters.

[WhatBigTeeth]

However, one thing that was misleading in your post: monks can twf to attack at a -2 for 6 attacks, while fighters can do the same for 5 attacks. However, fighters do have 5 points of BAB on the monk. You might wish to add that into the math.
Okay.

Since we're talking about 5/6 attacks, let's look at level 20 with only TWF or Gloves of the Balanced Hand.
Assuming both have +5 weapon enhancements and 32 Str, but no other abnormal attack bonuses like Law Devotion+Holy Monk or Invisible Fist for the Monk or the Weapon Supremacy line for the fighter, the monk's attacking at +29/+29/+29/+29/+24/+19, while the Fighter's attacking at +34/+34/+29/+24/+19.

Against the average ECL 20 AC of 37, the fighter expects to hit .9*2+.65+.4+.15=3 times in a full round attack, while the monk expects to hit .65*4+.4+.15=3.15 times in a full round attack. But with every +1 added to the attack roll through gear, feats, race or other optimization, the monk's expected number of hits increases at a faster rate than the fighter's, up until the monk's highest attacks hit on a 2, at which point its advantage remains a solid .95 of a hit per round.

[Eldest]

Okay.

Since we're talking about 5/6 attacks, let's look at level 20 with only TWF or Gloves of the Balanced Hand.
Assuming both have +5 weapon enhancements and 32 Str, but no other abnormal attack bonuses like Law Devotion+Holy Monk or Invisible Fist for the Monk or the Weapon Supremacy line for the fighter, the monk's attacking at +29/+29/+29/+29/+24/+19, while the Fighter's attacking at +34/+34/+29/+24/+19.

Against the average ECL 20 AC of 37, the fighter expects to hit .9*2+.65+.4+.15=3 times in a full round attack, while the monk expects to hit .65*4+.4+.15=3.15 times in a full round attack. But with every +1 added to the attack roll through gear, feats, race or other optimization, the monk's expected number of hits increases at a faster rate than the fighter's, up until the monk's highest attacks hit on a 2, at which point its advantage remains a solid .95 of a hit per round.

Again, to clarify. I meant to compare against this, specific, monkish fighter build. I apologize for leaving that out of my post.

Monkish Fighter (for reference, not my creation)
1: Improved Unarmed Strike
1(Human): [Stunning Fist]->Combat Expertise
1(Fighter): [Power Attack*]->Blind Fight
2(Fighter): Improved Grapple
3: Deflect Arrows
4(Fighter): Improved Disarm
6: Combat Reflexes
6(Fighter): Improved Trip
8(Fighter): Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike)
9: Weapon Specialization (Unarmed Strike)
10(Fighter): Greater Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike)
12: Greater Weapon Specialization (Unarmed Strike)
12(Fighter): Melee Weapon Mastery (Bludgeoning)
14 (Fighter): Martial Study (Wall of Blades)**
15 Superior Unarmed Strike
16 (Fighter): [Martial Study: Overwhelming Mountain Strike]->Stunning Fist
18: [Martial Stance: Roots of the Mountain]->Freezing the Lifeblood
18 (Fighter): Weapon Supremacy
20 (Fighter): Robilar's Gambit


To start with the Monk can actualy pick feats to compliment his abilities, or diversify his strategies :smalltongue:

But that aside, then he will be a much better mobile skimisher. Mobility rocks, and it has at least been my experience that a high movespeed is a great asset during both tactical combat and general gameplay.

And he can also be a lot harder to shut down, making him much better suited for annoying creatures and casters with a lot of save-or-lose spells, powers or spelllike abilities, all the way from level 1 to 20.
Because 3 good saves, evasion and SR really does add up to a very solid defence.

As did this particular fighter: there are feats in there for tripping and disarming and defense, oh my! :smalltongue: Yes, the monk is much better at movement: however, I do not believe that the monk is better at being a skirmisher, as while it is a highly mobile class, it does not have many abilities related to moving and attacking. Sun School, I'll give you, is certainly one: any others you know of?
Edit: Because I forgot to address it, the Monk is a better survivor of magical attacks, that's true. However, it can not do much against the attacker. (Note: I am not claiming that the fighter can do better.)

[ShneekeyTheLost]

You know, you could always do the same thing back at him... take a normally sub-par class and twink it out.

For example, there's a build with 10 levels of CW Samurai I know of which could take him down. Eventually. Look up 'Takahashi no Onisan' in my sig. It's only 13th level, but it only really needs to be. If you want seven more levels, throw four of them into CW Samurai (giving Improved Staredown and obviating the Fearful enchantment) then the rest into Ronin for more damage.

In brief: "Make a DC 50ish HD Check. It's not a saving throw, so you can't use your maneuvers to make a concentration check in place, nor do you automatically succeed on a natural 20. Oh, there's no way you can make it? Well, looks like you're going to be cowering every round."

Failing that, there's a simple Fighter build which does effectively the same thing, only better. It uses Zhent ACF for swift-action intimidate to demoralize combined with Imperious Command. This let him make a full attack rather than a standard action to kill things with, making it strictly superior against single targets (Takahashi works in area-effect, so he is more effective against crowds).

So, Fighter with Dungeon Crasher and Zhent ACF's ought to deal with him quite handily.

[Vaern]

Can't use gauntlets as unarmed strikes though, unarmed strikes are attacks made 'without' weapons. (PHB 314)


Gauntlet: This metal glove protects your hands and lets you deal lethal damage rather than nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes. A strike with a gauntlet is otherwise considered an unarmed attack. The cost and weight given are for a single gauntlet. Medium and heavy armors (except breastplate) come with gauntlets.

I don't see what the problem is.

[Zombulian]

I fail to see why there are people still posting here. I'm pretty sure the thread has been fulfilled, the OP will be back with the results whenever, now is the time to wait.

[lord_khaine]

As did this particular fighter: there are feats in there for tripping and disarming and defense, oh my! Yes, the monk is much better at movement: however, I do not believe that the monk is better at being a skirmisher, as while it is a highly mobile class, it does not have many abilities related to moving and attacking. Sun School, I'll give you, is certainly one: any others you know of?
Edit: Because I forgot to address it, the Monk is a better survivor of magical attacks, that's true. However, it can not do much against the attacker. (Note: I am not claiming that the fighter can do better.)

No, that fighter spend all his feats becomming an enferior monk, something the monk doesnt need to spend feats on, allowing him to spend them on something else, like mage slayer or Touch of Golden Ice.

And as for skirmishing, you move over to someone with a move action, and then trip them with a standart action. I dont know what other abilities you want or need here?
(though a bit of martrial study allows for pounce)

And i strongly disagree about the last part, all the way up though level 1 to 20 you are going to face tons of opponents with supernatural/spell-like abilities up the wazoo. And the monk can do a lot more than a fighter who is either burned to a crips, or dominated.

[Eldest]

No, that fighter spend all his feats becomming an enferior monk, something the monk doesnt need to spend feats on, allowing him to spend them on something else, like mage slayer or Touch of Golden Ice.

And as for skirmishing, you move over to someone with a move action, and then trip them with a standart action. I dont know what other abilities you want or need here?
(though a bit of martrial study allows for pounce)

And i strongly disagree about the last part, all the way up though level 1 to 20 you are going to face tons of opponents with supernatural/spell-like abilities up the wazoo. And the monk can do a lot more than a fighter who is either burned to a crips, or dominated.

Might I ask which feats are spent mimicking the monk? Since I actually only count 3 or 4 (Improved Unarmed Strike, Superior Unarmed Strike, Deflect Arrows, Stunning Blow) and the others are spent on improving it.
Skirmishing, I would prefer for there to be a bit more to it than move over and hit it. An example might be pounce, or abilities that function better when you move around before using them. By that statement, pretty much everyone can be a skirmisher.
And yes, large numbers of enemies will have supernatural abilitites and the monk is better at defending against them. However, there are a large number of monsters whose only method of attack is as a beatstick: against those, the fighter will likely fare better, as the fighter can be better armored and will in all likelyhood have a higher hit point total.

[Pickford]

I don't see what the problem is.

Wait, I'm thinking of flurry. Can't flurry with it (which is why I was thinking it's not an unarmed strike, bleh).

Eldest: Poison, Fighters can't use poison, that's a long term strategy.

[TuggyNE]

Eldest: Poison, Fighters can't use poison, that's a long term strategy.

Not that this is addressed to me, but I do like running numbers…

A Monk gets immunity to poison at level 11. Of 38 CR 11 and 12 enemies in MM I, 12 are outright immune to poison, 5 can save against the two highest-DC Con damage poisons (black lotus and deathblade) even on a 2, and 21 have a 60-90% chance of success; none of them have even a 50% chance of failing that save. Because poison DCs are static, that will only get worse as you hit higher levels. And, of course, that's ignoring the action economy and gp cost of using poisons; 4500gp or 1800gp/dose isn't cheap.

Yes, it's a long-term strategy, but it's one that is neither especially effective nor very affordable.

[lord_khaine]

Might I ask which feats are spent mimicking the monk? Since I actually only count 3 or 4 (Improved Unarmed Strike, Superior Unarmed Strike, Deflect Arrows, Stunning Blow) and the others are spent on improving it.

Yes, so if he first spend 3-4 feats on mimicking some of the monks abilities, and then the rest of those feats on improving said abilities, then he also spend all of his feats on it.


Skirmishing, I would prefer for there to be a bit more to it than move over and hit it. An example might be pounce, or abilities that function better when you move around before using them. By that statement, pretty much everyone can be a skirmisher.

Yes, there is a bit more, namely being able to get into range with someone in a singel move or charge action, who doesnt want to get into melee.
Someone dragget down by heavy armor, or for that matter just a regular move speed and no tumble, is a good example of a person who isnt usefull as a skirmisher.


And yes, large numbers of enemies will have supernatural abilitites and the monk is better at defending against them. However, there are a large number of monsters whose only method of attack is as a beatstick: against those, the fighter will likely fare better, as the fighter can be better armored and will in all likelyhood have a higher hit point total.

But its those monster with supernatural abilities who are the most dangerous ones, a good example of this is the poor tarrasque, where being only able to move and eat things has turned it into a joke.

[Arcanist]

Yes, so if he first spend 3-4 feats on mimicking some of the monks abilities, and then the rest of those feats on improving said abilities, then he also spend all of his feats on it.

Human: Feat
1st: Feat
2nd: Improved Unarmed Strike
3rd: Superior Unarmed Strike

At 3rd level, the Fighter is now a Lesser Monk.

>
at 4th level you now take Deflect Arrows

At 6th level you can pick up Combat Expertise and Improved Trip.

at 8th level pick up Stunning Fist.
<
You've lost very little resources (> to < feats are... unnecessary, but fun to have). Enjoy! :smallbiggrin:

Expand upon this and call yourself Master Monk Guan right after you take Weapon Focus (Longspear) and expand on this and get Weapon Supremacy for your Spear of Guan.

[Sith_Happens]

Expand upon this and call yourself Master Monk Guan right after you take Weapon Focus (Longspear) and expand on this and get Weapon Supremacy for your Spear of Guan.

http://www.absoluteanime.com/xiaolin_showdown/omi.jpg

AHA! I have spotted the thing that did there! Your reference was most tasteful!