[3.5] Epic Levels and Cherrypicking ToB

[Phelix-Mu]

Alright, just what it says. The character is an Int-based grey elf monk17/conjurer1/abjurant champ5/swordsage1/shadow sun ninja1. I want to know where to go from here. The campaign is all over the place, but the relevant fact is that my character is the tank, and everyone else except the druid's animal companion is a caster (sublime chord bard, sorcerer incantatrix, druid).

I was thinking of more swordsage, or maybe dipping Eternal Blade. Or warblade to improve my recharge mechanic for the most important maneuvers that I have (Diamond Mind Mind over Body and the other one for Fort saves). I'm not 100% clear on the ways that multiclassing between martial adept classes affects my IL, though.

If anyone has any non-ToB suggestions, too, that would be fine. Really just not sure where to go next. Thanks in advance.

[Carth]

Swiftblade? An (EX) 50% miss chance is pretty darned hard to beat for tanking.

[Phelix-Mu]

Swiftblade? An (EX) 50% miss chance is pretty darned hard to beat for tanking.

Hmm. I was informed in the past that I don't have the feats required. And I'm pretty strapped for feats as it is.

Carmendine Monk
Weapon Finesse
Stunning Fist (monk bonus)
Deflect Arrows (monk bonus)
Combat Reflexes (monk bonus)
Knowledge Devotion
Improved Natural Attack
Sun School
Combat Casting
Robilar's Gambit (Martial Wizard variant)
Snap Kick
Exceptional Deflection
Adaptive Style

I regularly use a wand of heroics to get access to Power Attack and such, another wand for wraithstrike, necklace of natural weapons to defeat DR and random coolness.

[Carth]

Improved natural attack can be had by wearing a fanged ring. Serpent armor from the Magic Item Compendium grants combat reflexes, and there's the mobility armor property that grants the mobility feat. You could throw these things on a robe or bracers instead of leather armor, if your DM will allow you the wiggle room. That frees up 3 feats.

[Phelix-Mu]

Improved natural attack can be had by wearing a fanged ring. Serpent armor from the Magic Item Compendium grants combat reflexes, and there's the mobility armor property that grants the mobility feat. You could throw these things on a robe or bracers instead of leather armor, if your DM will allow you the wiggle room. That frees up 3 feats.

Fanged Ring is a decent option. Combat Reflexes is a monk bonus feat (should have listed that).

I don't have Mobility, but I assume that is necessary for Swiftblade? I'd prefer not to qualify for stuff with equipment, if that can be avoided (apologies if that isn't what you are suggesting).

[Carth]

Yeah, mobility (and dodge) is required for swiftblade. If you're willing to give up scribe scroll, you could use the Unearthed Arcana wizard variant to replace it with a fighter feat. The place a fanged ring would give you the two feat slots needed to qualify for swiftblade.

[Phelix-Mu]

Hmm, swiftblade is definitely attractive.

Any other suggestions?

[dspeyer]

You have 25 hit dice, 2 of which are swordsage initiators. That means that another swordsagy level would have initiator level 14 and qualify for 7th level maneuvers, and starting warblade would be IL 13 and also qualify for 7th level maneuvers. Taking 2 levels of swordsage would get you 8th level maneuvers, while 2 levels in warblade would not, but a level in warblade followed by a level in swordsage would. Note that when I say swordsage, I include a swordsage-advancing prc.

You also have 6 levels of wizard casting, so one more would get you 4th level spells, which are pretty nifty.

So my actual thought is crusader 1 / jade phoenix mage X. Since JPM provides Devoted Spirit, the initial crusader level should take care of the prerequisites. It's probably worth taking martial study(diamond nightmare blade) at 27th level because that's such an awesome maneuver, even though it probably isn't worth shuffling the classes for diamond mind.

[Vaz]

Are you able to retrain the monk levels into monk variants, cobra strike monk gets dodge and mobility as bonus feats for 1 and 2; is exceptional deflection very useful for you?

[Phelix-Mu]

Are you able to retrain the monk levels into monk variants, cobra strike monk gets dodge and mobility as bonus feats for 1 and 2; is exceptional deflection very useful for you?

Yes, because the enemies almost all have homebrewed guns and giant plasma cannons, which have both been ruled to be ranged touch attacks covered by Exceptional Deflection. I sometimes use the friendly fire spell (via rings of spell storing and such), but that has proved to be less reliable. The damage of the plasma cannons, in particular, is pretty much impossible to mitigate, so it's imperative not to get hit by those.

Otherwise I could probably retrain freely, as the DM has been very liberal with our cheese and op allowance, as he is throwing some pretty powerful stuff at us.

It looks like the best stuff I'm looking at is swiftblade or Jade Phoenix Mage. JPM looks pretty good, especially since I don't need to pick up two essentially useless feats to get it's benefits. Swiftblade would be nice, but 95% of everything misses me anyway (my AC is regularly north of 75, not even particularly optimized, touch AC only about 15 points lower); crit immunity would be almost as effective as the miss chance (since the bosses that hit me are somewhat likely to bypass miss chance). As I already have 10' step and Abrupt Jaunt, Spring Attack is less useful (though it would be nice...not sure 2 feat tax nice).

Ah, at least I have a while to think about it....:smallamused:

EDIT: @dspeyer: I don't see that JPM requires a Devoted Spirit maneuver. It can grant them, but I'm pretty sure I already meet all of the requirements. Good thought with the Diamond Nightmare Blade. The Diamond Mind maneuvers are delicious, and combo well with Sun School and some of my other typical tactics. Most of my maneuvers known are Diamond Mind and Shadow Hand.

[Carth]

Yes, because the enemies almost all have homebrewed guns and giant plasma cannons, which have both been ruled to be ranged touch attacks covered by Exceptional Deflection. I sometimes use the friendly fire spell (via rings of spell storing and such), but that has proved to be less reliable. The damage of the plasma cannons, in particular, is pretty much impossible to mitigate, so it's imperative not to get hit by those.

Imagine how much you're getting hit now. Cut that amount in half exactly. That's what swiftblade will do. :smallbiggrin: The rest of its class features are also pretty good, notably an extra standard action every round. Also, you might consider grabbing mettle from somewhere, to pair with evasion so that you can avoid all things that are save for half.

[Phelix-Mu]

Imagine how much you're getting hit now. Cut that amount in half exactly. That's what swiftblade will do. :smallbiggrin: The rest of its class features are also pretty good, notably an extra standard action every round. Also, you might consider grabbing mettle from somewhere, to pair with evasion so that you can avoid all things that are save for half.

As I already mentioned, several types of creatures that we've fought seem to be able to ignore miss chances. EX miss is nice, but the DM is homebrewing many of the boss abilities, so it's really anybody's guess as to what abilities will or won't work.

Otherwise, swiftblade is nice, even if I have to stick with it for a while for the benefits to really kick in. Having to retool my feats would be sub-optimal, but the payoff is good, so I'll have to think about it.

Still farming for suggestions, if anyone else out there wants to weigh in. ToB is still fairly new to me, so any tricks or tips would be helpful.

[Phelix-Mu]

So my actual thought is crusader 1 / jade phoenix mage X. Since JPM provides Devoted Spirit, the initial crusader level should take care of the prerequisites. It's probably worth taking martial study(diamond nightmare blade) at 27th level because that's such an awesome maneuver, even though it probably isn't worth shuffling the classes for diamond mind.

If I already meet all of the JPM pre-reqs, what is the point of the crusader level?

[Essence_of_War]

Gives you a WAY better recharge mechanic for your JPM maneuvers.

Also adds +1 to your Swordsage IL.

[Phelix-Mu]

Can someone give some tips on crusader maneuver choices? I'm looking at a few handbooks, but it's all rather vague. I really wish handbooks for ToB stuff would list # of pre-reqs for maneuvers when ranking them...I also wish I had a real copy of the book. Grrrr....:smallannoyed:

Any help would be appreciated. Crusader does look good, as I'm the only melee powerhouse in the party, and I'm holding up a good 1/3- 1/2 of our round-to-round damage output (thanks, Greater Mighty Wallop). So some White Raven Tactics would be...mmmm...delicious.

[dspeyer]

The point of crusader is maneuver prerequisites. Anything 1 / JPM 1 gets a maneuver of up to 8th level from Desert Wind or Devoted Spirit, but the maneuver itself has prereqs. You might have some DW to speak of, but you presumably don't have DS. Rather than waste the potential 8th level maneuver on a maneuver with no prereqs (likely no higher than 3rd), use the unconstrained level to learn a bunch of DS. Note that this is viable because of IL rounding -- delaying JPM doesn't delay 8th level maneuvers.

[Phelix-Mu]

I am having some trouble with the selection of maneuvers. I really wish the pre-reqs were more consistent; I'm pretty sure they didn't use any real system when determining this stuff. And what's with no bonus maneuvers for high stats? Tsk, tsk, WotC. You giveth, you taketh away.

I have focused so far on DM, SH, plus a smattering of SS. (I'd like some TC...sudden leap...very nice, but then I have to blow a maneuver on Wolf Fang Strike...my Jump bonus is over 120...ah, so many choices.)

Diamond Mind
Moment of Perfect Mind
Mind over Body
Ruby Nightmare Blade

Shadow Hand
Child of Shadow/Dance of the Spider (depending on the DM waiving the stance must be 1st level)
X (might need something based on DM ruling to qualify for Shadow Sun Ninja)
Shadow Step/Blink (if it's the maneuver from Shadow Sun 1, I think I can take Blink...both would be pretty useful...Sun School synergy!)


Setting Sun
Mighty Throw (requirement for Shadow Sun Ninja)

And Now the Crusader stuff. I get 5 + 1 stance, and can choose up to 7th level? I think.

Wish list:
White Raven Tactics (bet no one saw this coming)
??

Just not sure here. I have 10' step from sparring dummy of the master, so any of the 5' step stuff sounds crazy awesome (considering I have 30 Dex and Combat Reflexes and spend much of the time under enlarge person). Lacking pounce, charging seems less cool, so unless it's a pre-req, that's out. I like the crusader attack/heal mechanics, and I tend to full attack most rounds (for 7+ attacks), but Shadow Sun is very nice for the healing, too.

I ordered a copy of the book, cause staring at this .pdf is going to make me go blind.