[PF] Ranger Fell Into Vital Strike Trap. Now what?

[OverdrivePrime]

A while back, when I was level 7, Vital strike looked great, and I gave it to my ranger (guide archetype, 2-handed weapon path). In the last couple months, I've come to understand that Vital Strike was a mistake. And now I just made level 9.

Should I just suck it up and continue down the Vital Strike path of mediocrity and get Devastating Strike? Or is there a better way? I'm the group's secondary warrior (after the intimidation-based fighter), and am backed up by a wind Druid and a very odd necromancer.

Current feats:
Fey Foundling
Fast Learner
EWP Bastard Sword (yes, I know!)
Power Attack
Furious Focus
Cleave
Vital Strike
???

[JusticeZero]

It's not a BAD feat, per se, if you're finding that you are having to move around a lot and as such losing your full attack actions. I don't know that it really leads to anything much, though, unless you are adding it into other abilities that are triggered by a standard attack.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Is retraining an option?

If you have to keep it, I would not dig yourself a deeper grave. "Well, I already started investing in it..." is the textbook definition of the sunk cost fallacy.

I'm not sure where you should go... not many good combat feats in PF, and you already have an Intimidation focused Fighter whose toes I assume you don't want to step on... Which is a shame because Dreadful Carnage (available next level as a bonus feat) is awesome...

I'll try to think of something to do with this build... I wouldn't normally take, well...most of those feats...

[JusticeZero]

Well, if you can find a way to build around a strategy that uses STANDARD attacks, it's a nice perk. I'm not sure what one would look like though.

[Keneth]

Well bastard sword is kind of pointless. To maximize Vital Strike efficiency you need a bigger weapon, like a greatsword or a fullblade (if allowed). Then you need to get bigger yourself (such as with enlarge person) to increase the number of dice further. And finally you need to improve your critical hit chances to hit even harder.

With Greater Vital Strike, enlarge person, and a greatsword, you can go around hitting stuff for 12d6 damage + bonuses. Not really that great at 16th level, but it's not awful either. Each feat basically adds 10.5 points of damage on single attacks.

The feat line is much better for ginormous monsters with massive attacks.

[Krazzman]

Well bastard sword is kind of pointless.

Seconding this. EWP: Bastard Sword isn't even needed if you are going for two-handed combat.

Taking Vital Strike instead of something different depends strong on your character+the type of campaign you are running. Can you pick up Critical Focus? (To get bleeding critical afterwards? Or something like that. combined with a Falchion?)

[Xerxus]

Go for improvisation, become a semi-skill monkey, forget that you ever even dreamed of fighting in close quarters.

[OverdrivePrime]

I'll talk to the DM about retraining, but I think I'm stuck with the rest. I took those first several feats for character reasons (he's a guide who ws raised by fey and he does a lot of treaty negotiation between fey and humans who want to travel through fey lands). Sadly, I'm already the second most effective character in a fight (after the fighter - I'm happy so report that I built his character for him), but that's not saying much.

In battle, I cast Lead Blades at the earliest opportunity. That brings my sword up to 2d8. If one of the casters was kind enough to prepare an Enlarge Person for me, that helps even more. Unfortunately, I don't have a single rank in Intimidate, and not much in bluff. I do have diplomacy out the wazoo, but u don't know of any combat tactics that leverage diplomacy

I know I've got a bunch of sub optimal feats. If I can retrain, and want to stay a 2-Handed fighter (and I do), what path would you suggest to make me more effective without going the Intimidation route?

We fight an amazingly bizarre range of monsters, due to the random nature of the campaign. The last episode took place in a volcano where we beat down fire giants. Before that, an army of zombies. Before that, a pack of dire boars, and then an Ice Devil. The DM populates the world through random tables. It's why I picked the guide archetype.

[Chained Birds]

First off, get rid of the bastard sword feat. It is literally like a Good-aligned Oracle picking CLW as a Spell Known. You can already 2hand a Bastard sword, the feat just makes it so you can use it One Handed.


Sword, Bastard
A bastard sword is about 4 feet in length, making it too large to use in one hand without special training.

Description: Due to its size, a bastard sword is an exotic weapon. A character can use a bastard sword two-handed as a martial weapon.

Now, we'd need to know your Fighter friend's build a bit so your build doesn't look too similar.

I see you took Cleave. You could take Great Cleave and Cleaving Finish. If I recall, the two feats work well together and can have you destroying everything around you.

Furious Focus is really only good for an Intimidate Build with Dreadful Carnage. Though it isn't too bad of a feat is you literally only make a single attack a round like you've already been doing...

[Krazzman]

If I can retrain, and want to stay a 2-Handed fighter (and I do), what path would you suggest to make me more effective without going the Intimidation route?

Current feats:
Fey Foundling
Fast Learner
EWP Bastard Sword (yes, I know!) Power Attack (and take a Falchion or Bastard Sword [EWP Bastard Sword is only needed to use it One-handed.])
Furious Focus
Cleave
Cleaving Finish
Vital Strike Improved Critical? dunno if you can take this here already, else make your weapon keen.
Critical Focus

[Chained Birds]

Current feats:
Fey Foundling
Fast Learner
EWP Bastard Sword (yes, I know!) Power Attack (and take a Falchion or Bastard Sword [EWP Bastard Sword is only needed to use it One-handed.])
Furious Focus
Cleave
Cleaving Finish
Vital Strike Improved Critical? dunno if you can take this here already, else make your weapon keen.
Critical Focus

Great Cleave for the Vital Strike Replacement maybe? Though I guess Cleaving Finish does a pretty good job... Hmm, Improved Cleaving Finish then?

[Krazzman]

Great Cleave for the Vital Strike Replacement maybe? Though I guess Cleaving Finish does a pretty good job... Hmm, Improved Cleaving Finish then?

Don't know, going from memory... and that is quite limited in the way that I only play a Sorcerer in PF right now... and I don't need feats that often when I'm dming... and the campaign I'm playing in right now is a Core + APG only everything else is DM decision.

But jeah that could go, focusing on hitting multiple times due to cleave and greater cleave and cleving finish and etc to generate a few critical hits with a falchion (for a high threat range). And then when the char is level 11 getting bleeding critical for 2d6 bleed damage... tasty or any other status effect the fighter isn't tacking on it.

[JusticeZero]

It's possible (not necessarily likely, but possible) that the attacks that the Cleave tree makes - since Cleave is an attack action - can be ruled to use the Vital Strike tree. I don't think I would, since Vital Strike triggers on a standard Attack Action, and Cleave seems to be worded as a special action ("I cleave" instead of "I attack").

Lose the EWP (because useless to you).

[navar100]

Vital Strike is not a trap, but it is misunderstood. Vital Strike is useful for those times you are only getting one attack anyway, such as you moved more than 5 ft. It's not something you specifically strategize around unless always moving is part of your strategy.

[The Boz]

Vital Strike + Spring Attack is very effective for flankers.
HIDEOUSLY expensive, feat-wise, but still.

[OverdrivePrime]

Sadly, Vital Strike specifically doesn't work with Spring Attack. It's not supposed to work on a charge, either, but my DM things that's BS, so he allows it.

Thanks so much for all of your replies. I am hugely entertained by just how much people hate EWP: Bastard Sword. I've actually found it to be pretty useful - my guy spends a lot of time in trees and on cliffs, so I like having the option to swing my weapon one-handed. And no, I don't want to step down to long sword.

Anyway, I like the idea of building more around Cleaving Finish. I'll be getting Great Cleave for my 11th level ranger combat style feat. (Because the other choices are terribad.) My character is fairly mobile, and tends to jump around a lot, thanks to a high acrobatics check and a lot of ranks in climb.

My guy is becoming sort of the Swiss Army Knife fighter. Against a boss, I've got solid damage and to-hit thanks to being a Ranger Guide. With Vital Strike, I can hit hard when I need to get a single solid hit in. And with the cleave line of feats, I can mop up mooks and get in extra hits when I need them.

[The Boz]

Oh my god, I just read that errata...
Good god, Vital Strike is horrible. What's the point of that feat?

[Krazzman]

Sadly, Vital Strike specifically doesn't work with Spring Attack. It's not supposed to work on a charge, either, but my DM things that's BS, so he allows it.

Thanks so much for all of your replies. I am hugely entertained by just how much people hate EWP: Bastard Sword. I've actually found it to be pretty useful - my guy spends a lot of time in trees and on cliffs, so I like having the option to swing my weapon one-handed. And no, I don't want to step down to long sword.

Anyway, I like the idea of building more around Cleaving Finish. I'll be getting Great Cleave for my 11th level ranger combat style feat. (Because the other choices are terribad.) My character is fairly mobile, and tends to jump around a lot, thanks to a high acrobatics check and a lot of ranks in climb.

My guy is becoming sort of the Swiss Army Knife fighter. Against a boss, I've got solid damage and to-hit thanks to being a Ranger Guide. With Vital Strike, I can hit hard when I need to get a single solid hit in. And with the cleave line of feats, I can mop up mooks and get in extra hits when I need them.

This makes quite a difference... but how often do you attack with only one hand? Does it really come up that often?

[Evard]

Vital Strike + Spring Attack is very effective for flankers.
HIDEOUSLY expensive, feat-wise, but still.

Doesn't work together sadly.

Edit: I started posting earlier but my phone didn't load until I got ninja'ed ... dang phone.

[Chained Birds]

I wouldn't say hate, though we initially thought that you might be doing the EWP just to wield the weapon as you are doing the Two-Handed Weapon Style of Ranger. But seeing as you like the occasional One-Handed aspect the feat gives you, then that is fine. Though it still feels like a waste considering you will probably 95% of the time be wielding it Two-Handed.


Oh my god, I just read that errata...
Good god, Vital Strike is horrible. What's the point of that feat?

The point... I guess Sniping? Like an Assassin trying to make that 1 lethal shot from a long distance or something. Cause in Melee, this feat is completely Worthless!

[Frosty]

Vital strike serves the same purpose as the old 3.5 Multishot does, except it takes like 3 feats. You take it with some ranged weapon, and ready an action (using vital strike) to shoot a spellcaster if he starts casting. Good luck making that concentration check.

[Khantin]

if you use size stacking to get your weapon dice up, vital strike can get pretty mean. A large sized greatsword in the hands of a huge ranger with lead blades going does 8d6 weapon damage... Each vital strike feat adds an average of 24 more damage to his standard action attacks and aoos.

Add in feather step and something like entangle or stone call and you have some pretty mean bfc guaranteeing you some aoos every round.

[Evard]

Vital strike serves the same purpose as the old 3.5 Multishot does, except it takes like 3 feats. You take it with some ranged weapon, and ready an action (using vital strike) to shoot a spellcaster if he starts casting. Good luck making that concentration check.

Well everytime my group fights archers we have windwall up... Though funny enough the PF casters don't carry defensive spells like that whereas we 3.5 casters do.

I need to see if wind wall in pathfinder is as horribly broken as 3.5....

*edit: Our casters have awesome initiative and since there is more than one... Even if you ready an action it won't help. Plus all day displacement.... Fun times :D

Archers are waaaay better in PF than 3.5 but trying to make a caster fail a concentration check isn't the way to make an Archer.

[Xerxus]

The point is playing a Dwarven Drunken Brute Barbarian with a gazillion potions and tankards of ale, wielding a Large Dwarven Waraxe and just swinging away while enlarged.

[OverdrivePrime]

This makes quite a difference... but how often do you attack with only one hand? Does it really come up that often?


I wouldn't say hate, though we initially thought that you might be doing the EWP just to wield the weapon as you are doing the Two-Handed Weapon Style of Ranger. But seeing as you like the occasional One-Handed aspect the feat gives you, then that is fine. Though it still feels like a waste considering you will probably 95% of the time be wielding it Two-Handed.

It winds up being something like 10-15% of the time that I'm swinging one-handed, either due to carrying something (or someone), climbing, or swinging from a rope.

The game occurs on a plane where shards of different worlds keep getting slammed into one another. Once they connect, they're permanently fused. So I started in a mountainous rain forest, which suddenly butted up against a glacier with a series of holes and ice caves, which butted up against a land of canyons, which butted up against a volcano and a desert. In both the ice cave area and the cliff area I've been in extended fights that occurred while climbing - fighting off swarms of ice bats (?), mephits and flying demons. Our DM loves three dimensional combat, and none of us can fly yet (except the druid, who always forgets. Never mind that she's a Wind Druid.) Ropes, climbing and acrobatics has been how we get the job done.

I don't want to seem snarky - I definitely can appreciate that there are more efficient weapons. If I wanted to be pure damage, I'd take a page from our big stupid fighter and just wear spiked armor and carry a greatsword. But that's his thing and he's comically proud of it.

Here's my character as he currently stands with the addition of Cleaving Finish: Orion Alesworn, 9th Level Ranger (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=432487)

[Krazzman]

It winds up being something like 10-15% of the time that I'm swinging one-handed, either due to carrying something (or someone), climbing, or swinging from a rope.

The game occurs on a plane where shards of different worlds keep getting slammed into one another. Once they connect, they're permanently fused. So I started in a mountainous rain forest, which suddenly butted up against a glacier with a series of holes and ice caves, which butted up against a land of canyons, which butted up against a volcano and a desert. In both the ice cave area and the cliff area I've been in extended fights that occurred while climbing - fighting off swarms of ice bats (?), mephits and flying demons. Our DM loves three dimensional combat, and none of us can fly yet (except the druid, who always forgets. Never mind that she's a Wind Druid.) Ropes, climbing and acrobatics has been how we get the job done.

I don't want to seem snarky - I definitely can appreciate that there are more efficient weapons. If I wanted to be pure damage, I'd take a page from our big stupid fighter and just wear spiked armor and carry a greatsword. But that's his thing and he's comically proud of it.

Here's my character as he currently stands with the addition of Cleaving Finish: Orion Alesworn, 9th Level Ranger (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=432487)

Looking over your sheet. Seems ok. But what I spotted was that you have a +3 Bastard Sword, did you find this or are there actually Special Properties? Like Flaming to match it's name?

[OverdrivePrime]

Looking over your sheet. Seems ok. But what I spotted was that you have a +3 Bastard Sword, did you find this or are there actually Special Properties? Like Flaming to match it's name?

I've had the sword for 7 game sessions now, but my character just named it after last week's game. It landed two crits against three fire giants, and struck the finishing blow against two of them. It had been a +2 sword, but the ghost dragon whose curse we lifted by killing the giants did some DM-Handwave magic that gave each of our characters an improvement to one of our items.

While it's pretty excellent, the sword doesn't have any fire powers. It just looks cool and cuts through most things.

[Chained Birds]

Character looks fine. It is too bad you might not be able to get rid of the Vital Strike for something like Improved Cleaving Finish (Reorganizing your 7th and 9th feats around for it). Though, if you are able to retrain, I'd suggest Improved Cleaving Finish so the Love Train Cleaving won't stop with just one dead guy. Also, if your DM is kind enough, you might be able to convince him to allow Vital Strike to work with Cleave or Cleaving Finish. But I fear this may have been nixed a while ago...

Best of luck to you in this pretty interesting sounding game world.

[CombatOwl]

People always seem to underestimate the sheer utility of full movement in a fight. So much stuff becomes kind of trivial when they're only getting one attack a turn. It's extremely useful in actual encounters, even if it is suboptimal on paper... simply because paper calculations often fail to account for things not going precisely according to plan. And Vital Strike is great for those situations.

You never know when you need to move your full movement to get into range on someone, or to force a monster to give up its full round attack, or to let the rogue get flanking--and even if you don't need to move, you might need to attack, then draw a potion for use in the following round, or stand up from prone and attack, or open a door and attack what's on the other side. All of these things are assisted with Vital Strike, and all of them are at least reasonably common. Way more common than actually being able to use crit feats without focusing on scimitars or falchions.

[magwaaf]

our ranger loveds the vital strike tree and he is a bow guy (dual wielder if melee is needed) and its amazing on boss and mini boss fights. he uses the many shot/rapid shot ridiculousness for mook fighting but overall he loves and plans on going all the way down to the 4x vital strike feat.""his bow is a +1 keen holy collision mighty +5 greatbow with a runecaster's mini collision rune on it.

house rules on it are that holy is at a +1 because of an in game thing we did, the mini collision rune adds +2 damage and our greatbows do 2d6 damage because "f" it we like it that way.