Help Optimize a Druid?

[Sivarias]

I have 12,12,14,14,16,18 for stats and am restricted to PH1 and PH2. I am a cleric of Heronious and the DM isn't allowing multiclassing.

The rest of the Party is a Ranger (CC and my "wife" ((actually my girlfriend))), a demon possessed 10 year old sorc (who we don't know about the possession but my "wife" and I have adopted) a fighter with three 18's, and a cleric of obed-hai whose general play style is jerkish and very "I'm the main character! bow down and obey me!"

The party wants me to be party face so he isn't the one talking all the time. I'm playing a forest protector who's wife is the ranger in the area. Adopted son was in a village near our homes that got attacked by demons.

Can you guys help me pick feats and skills? I always get lost in that soup and this is my first spell caster. We are playing at seven so by then I need this character fleshed out numbers wise.

P.S. The DM is going to be pissed because this is the 5th character change I've made since he started prepping, but in my defense that was two months ago and this is our first session. Last night I had decided on a druid. lol.:smalltongue

Edit: it's been ruled that I have to do a druid. (was originally about a cleric).

P.S. Would kind of like some sort of father figure protecting the party type deal going if a druid can do that.

[dantiesilva]

So wait do you want a cleric or a druid? And with only PHB and PHB2 Druid would be best choice.

Extend spell
Power attack
Improved bullrush
Cleave
Great cleave
Improved initative

Keep in mind if a lot of undead then the feats would change

[Gereo]

If you're gonna be perma-locked into one class be sure it's a class you dig. If you must be the party face and you only have phb 1+2 consider bard and beguiler, they're easier picks for your first caster. But if you have your heart set on cleric, go classic.

[Tvtyrant]

I have 12,12,14,14,16,18 for stats and am restricted to PH1 and PH2. I am a cleric of Heronious and the DM isn't allowing multiclassing.

The rest of the Party is a Ranger (CC and my "wife" ((actually my girlfriend))), a demon possessed 10 year old sorc (who we don't know about the possession but my "wife" and I have adopted) a fighter with three 18's, and a cleric of obed-hai whose general play style is jerkish and very "I'm the main character! bow down and obey me!"

The party wants me to be party face so he isn't the one talking all the time. I want to play a noble's son who is called by Heronious to protect the weak. standard paladin fluff.

Can you guys help me pick feats and skills? I always get lost in that soup and this is my first spell caster. We are playing at seven so by then I need this character fleshed out numbers wise.

P.S. The DM is going to be pissed because this is the 5th character change I've made since he started prepping, but in my defense that was two months ago and this is our first session. Last night I had decided on a druid. lol.:smalltongue:

Your stats are fine. A high charisma Cleric works fine, even if your offensive spells will not stick as well.

18 in charisma or wisdom, 16 same, 14 con and strength, others are 12s. You are going to have a lot of turn undead uses, but not a lot to do with them unless you are in an undead heavy environment. If yes you might try the sun domain for destroy undead, if not you will simply have a dangling class feature.

[Sivarias]

DM just said I can't change my character again so yah I'm stuck with the druid. Any tips with PH1 and 2? We are starting out at lvl 4 and I've never optimized before.

[Tvtyrant]

At level 4 you are still stuck in the pre-wildshape era. For Animal Companions you probably want the Ape, Bison or Dire Bat. Dire Bat works as a flying mount, so I would take that.

For your stats focus on Con and Wisdom, as once you get wildshape you are going to ditch strength and dex for your forms strength and dex.

[Gerrtt]

Are you playing with the Wildshape Variant from PH2 or the regular PH1 druid?

It makes a difference because with the PH1 version you'll take Natural Spell and with the Wildshape Variant from PH2 you wont.

[Waker]

DM just said I can't change my character again so yah I'm stuck with the druid. Any tips with PH1 and 2? We are starting out at lvl 4 and I've never optimized before.

You are playing a druid now? Alright, what roles did you want to fill with this character? The only things I can suggest so far are Natural Spell and Augment Summoning.

[Vaz]

Just take Druid 20, with Natural Spell. It's a Feat Tax to amplify your power x200.

[Sivarias]

I still would like a party face/leader type role

there's a cleric who may or may not heal (player's a ****)

10 year old who is willing to party face but doesn't want to

Fighter for tanking

two-weapon ranger with kitty familiar
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15102160

[Vaz]

Diplomacy is a class skill. Even if Cha is a dump stat, with maxed skill ranks (what else would you spend it on, aside from Concentration and Knowledge Nature?) You are still pushing +22 on checks without item boosts.

Use the cityscape web enhancement to replace unusedclass skills for more face-time skills. Perhaps city slicker feat as well if really desperate.

[Randomguy]

For your stats, I'd go with 18 Wisdom, 16 Con, 14 Cha, 12 Int. If you'd prefer archery or blasting put the other 14 in Dex, otherwise put it in Strength.
Druids aren't normally build to be the party face, but it can be done. Just put max ranks in diplomacy.

Here are two options:
1. Summoner druid. These tend to be very powerful.

A possible feat progression would be:
1: Spell focus (conjuration).
1: (Human): Augment Summoning.
3: Free
6: Natural Spell.


Some feats that you could take to fill free slots: Extend spell, Imbued Summoning, Craft Wondrous Item, Empower spell, Quicken spell (This one's mandatory for level 12 or 15) and Skill Focus (Bluff or Sense Motive).

2. Melee druid. You'll get a lot stronger when Wildshape comes into play.
Feats to choose from: Natural spell (mandatory for level 6), quicken spell (at level 12 or 15), Extend spell and Skill focus. Instead of Spell Focus and Augment summoning, though, you'd take Power Attack and Multiattack (from the Monster Manual).

[Sivarias]

Really I'm kind of stuck between summoner druid and melee druid. I want to be able to help my girlfriend out by doing things like buffs and stuff so she can shine and help out. But I also want to able to play. The cleric player has a tendancy to effectively run the show and I don't want that to happen. I want to be able to make him shut up and sit down because this is the DM's first session and I'm not sure he'll be able to.

I want an effective quiet powerhouse who can run the show but chooses not to. I want Gandalf.

[dantiesilva]

Be a summoner druid then Laugh as he can do nothing as your animals kill everything and protect your GF. Take quicken spell at 3rd level Now you are summoning a creature to attack, and full attacking in the same turn.

Ask your DM if you can get greenbound summoning as well or some other Druid feats as those two books mostly have buffs for your spells. Extend spell will also be a mandatory now as well.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Looking here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125732) can help you out with learning to depend more on Charisma for your social idea or have social depend more on wisdom.

Sadly I myself can't seem to find much on that regard though other than Combat Panache.

What it lets you do is make an Intimidate Check (A Charisma skill) against an enemy you damage, and if you pass they take a penalty to their attack rolls equal to your charisma modifier until the encounter ends of until you change targets.

Doesn't mix well with Druid as a whole, but it's something you want to focus on one guy and gain some extra use from Charisma.

Like others have suggested though, natural spell is a must and you should max out Diplomacy. Even with a Charisma of 10 you can do well with it, though some magic items boosting Diplomacy would help.

One way you could use your high wisdom to help as a party face is to invest into Sense Motive. Doing so you can see how the NPCs feel and use this information to better use your Diplomacy skill and what you say.

Combat wise to avoid taking the center, either focus on one enemy at a time so aren't ending the encounter for everybody, and/or focus on buffs and healing spells. You are probably doing the most to aid the fight, but nothing to steal glory from others and everyone loves you for it cause they're both stronger and healed.

[eggynack]

Really I'm kind of stuck between summoner druid and melee druid. I want to be able to help my girlfriend out by doing things like buffs and stuff so she can shine and help out. But I also want to able to play. The cleric player has a tendancy to effectively run the show and I don't want that to happen. I want to be able to make him shut up and sit down because this is the DM's first session and I'm not sure he'll be able to.

I want an effective quiet powerhouse who can run the show but chooses not to. I want Gandalf.
Ooh, a summoner druid? I like summoner druids. If you're stuck in core+phb, then you're probably doing spell focus(conjuration), augment summoning, and natural spell. Your stats are pretty crazy, and you're starting at 7, so most of them don't matter. You're going to want 18 wis, 16 con, 14 int, 14 cha, 12 dex and 12 strength. For skills, that build can max out 6 of them. I like concentration, diplomacy, listen, spot, spellcraft and knowledge(nature). You can switch one of those out for handle animal, if you want that route, but I like the list I gave.

If you're a summoner, then one of the most important things is what to summon. Brown bears and giant crocodiles are great for combat. Giant crocodiles in particular are running a grapple mod of +23, which makes them great for pinning down enemy spellcasters. Additionally, you're going to want to use unicorns, because they have great utility. Their spell likes heal more than just about anything else at that level, and magic circle against evil is often quite useful. For lower level summons, I'd suggest dire wolves at 3, hippogriffs at 2, and just whatever you want to hurl into a trap at 1. Monkey's are pretty good at utility, but you're not really using anything at this level for combat. One of the druid's greatest advantages is that they can prepare a wide variety of spells that are sometimes excellent, and spontaneously convert them to something that's just about universally useful.

[Randomguy]

Really I'm kind of stuck between summoner druid and melee druid. I want to be able to help my girlfriend out by doing things like buffs and stuff so she can shine and help out. But I also want to able to play. The cleric player has a tendancy to effectively run the show and I don't want that to happen. I want to be able to make him shut up and sit down because this is the DM's first session and I'm not sure he'll be able to.

I want an effective quiet powerhouse who can run the show but chooses not to. I want Gandalf.

Remember that they're not completely mutually exclusive. Even if you build towards summoning, you'll still be able to turn into a bear at level 5 and out-fight just about anything. And even if you build towards melee combat you'll still have loads of buffs and battlefield control.

Check the Druid Handbook. (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=roncjll38a130v20qp90ua5v97&topic=940.msg5875#msg5875) From what you've described I wouldn't go for summoning and use the free feats to focus more on melee and buffing, but take melee feats at higher levels. You'll want feats like Natural Spell, Multiattack, Improved Natural Attack, Extend Spell, Quicken Spell, and Empower Spell and Power Attack, and possibly some feats to boost social skills.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Note on the Summoner Druid.

We have one in our current group and she summons so many animals that the fight becomes mostly her and her legion of pets and combat slows down to a standstill.

If you care about the rest of the groups sanity I highly suggest avoiding going down the summoning route.

[Rubik]

Note on the Summoner Druid.

We have one in our current group and she summons so many animals that the fight becomes mostly her and her legion of pets and combat slows down to a standstill.

If you care about the rest of the groups sanity I highly suggest avoiding going down the summoning route.You can use summoning for utility, but unless your group is far too light on meatshields, I basically agree with this. However, summons are still useful on the battlefield for use as mobile walls, flankers, and so on. Try to think of what you can do with them beyond hitting enemies -- they're surprisingly versatile if you can think outside the box.

Plus you already have access to wild shape and a (potentially) extremely powerful animal companion, so think carefully (and tactically) before you summon stuff.

[dantiesilva]

Summons in my eyes work like this, protect the spellcasters in the back so they can make sure everyone in the front can do there job. thus they only fight if they get past the front liners. Use one to summon a brown bear and you and it charge into battle, now your player will not be thinking he is the only person in the group, especially if your bear is hungry... Using SM! for scouting is a favorite of mine. Also see if you can get natural bond at least once. Increases your druid level by 4 for the purpose of your animal companion so now those pesky penalties become none existent.

[Bnox]

gonna say something that might get me kicked in the face :)


Planer sheppard?

[eggynack]

gonna say something that might get me kicked in the face :)


Planer sheppard?
There's actually three separate problems with that idea. First of all, and the one you likely meant when you said you were going to be kicked in the proverbial face, is that planar shepherd are crazy overpowered. The second problem is that the book list only has player's handbook I and II. The final problem is that it's spelled planar shepherd. Seriously, is this a druid PrC designed around flattening surfaces or something?

[Gwazi Magnum]

You can use summoning for utility, but unless your group is far too light on meatshields, I basically agree with this. However, summons are still useful on the battlefield for use as mobile walls, flankers, and so on. Try to think of what you can do with them beyond hitting enemies -- they're surprisingly versatile if you can think outside the box.

Plus you already have access to wild shape and a (potentially) extremely powerful animal companion, so think carefully (and tactically) before you summon stuff.

Unless if he's prepared and fast with what he does with them though it will lead with the same issue of slowing combat down to a stand still.

I agree though that if he can do it quickly it can become powerful indeed.

[Threadnaught]

Three things.

1: Augment Summoning.
2: Natural Spell.
3: Additional character sheets for Wild Shape forms and favoured summons so your DM doesn't smack you every time you do something.

Try not to remind your DM about what he should be doing every time something takes a move in battle.

[Vaz]

gonna say something that might get me kicked in the face :)


Planer sheppard?

Depends if it's a Grammar Nazi, or if they're in the Spelling SS. Either way, writing that terrible is likely to get a kick in the face.

Please, don't type with your knee, it doesn't work.

But yeah, it's not PHB 1 or 2, and to be fair, a Druid 20 doesn't need much help. I'd love to see a Druid actually have the Planar Shepherd incorporated within it's class features (not so much the Bubble), but the gradual assimilation.

[Sivarias]

I'm not sure why people think we are starting at lvl 7 but we are starting at lvl 4.

The concensus seems to be go melee because summoning makes the game boring for everyone else?

Also, what buff do you recommend when?

And can a druid be a blaster in a heaven vs. hell campaign?
-Because don't devils and demons have fire resistance?
--He's doing the lawful ones, whichever those may be can't remember right now

Basically tactical advice would be appreciated

[eggynack]

Probably because "We are playing at seven". I'm a fan of summoning optimization, especially if you're basically too low level to punch stuff. You're slightly low level to summon stuff, but less so. I don't think druid melee really comes into its own till level 8. Also, I think that optimizing summoning gives more help to summoning, than optimizing punching gives help to punching. Also, even if you don't want to make your whole life about summoning, it still helps to pick up augment summoning. Summoning is basically a free resource, given that you can spontaneously convert your spells into animals. Shooting animals isn't something you need to do all the time, but in situations where your prepped spells aren't that useful, shooting animals lets you make a big impact on any problem. Also, I kinda like book keeping, though I might be unique in that.

[Gavinfoxx]

Devils tend to have...

immunity to fire and poison
resistance to acid and cold
Dr/good and/or DR/silver
SR

So, you want to REAR THE DRUID HANDBOOK linked in this thread
And focus on buffs that increase per hit damage, animal companions with a single big attack, summons with a single big attack, blasty spells that do crazy amounts of acid damage or cold damage that isn't affected by SR, or slashing or piercing or bludgeoning damage that isn't affected by DR, or force or sonic damage (provided it is Sr no), or spells like silvered claws, or battlefield control spells that don't care about SR. You'll probably need to go out of core. At this point, big burly summons, big burly animal companion, some minor buffs, and silvered claws (beg for access to it) is about the best you can do.

[Gavinfoxx]

Anyway, here is a better link to the Druid Handbook:

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=940

Things of note (this list goes beyond core...)

Spells:
-Enrage Animal (SpC)
-Magic Fang
-Silvered Claws (BoED)
-Shillelagh (see if you can ask the GM for greatclub proficiency, and for Shillelagh to work on greatclubs... then do the math of fighting with a Shillelagh/Brambles Greatclub at level 4!!)
-Align Fang (SpC)
-Bull's Strength
-Bite of the Wererat (SpC)
-Brambles (SpC)
-Dessicate (Sandstorm)
-Kelpstrand (SpC)
-Rhino's Rush (SpC)

Animal Companion:
-Crocodile

Summon Nature's Ally II creatures:
-Hippogriff
-Crocodile

Summoning-useful feats:
-Ashbound (ECS)
-Augment Summoning

Let's say you have....
-14 base strength
-time to pre-buff (bull's strength, shillelagh, brambles for when you actually go in to fight, a Rhino's Rush)
-The DM okayed the Greatclub Shillelagh stuff, and you have a Masterwork Oak Greatclub
-You are charging

Here's your to hit and damage
To hit:
Bab +3, +4 strength (from net 18 strength), +1 enhancement to attack (from brambles/ shillelagh), +2 charge
Damage:
3d8 (Shillelaghed greatclub) + (4 enhancement to damage, from brambles), + 6 from strength
doubled (for another 3d8+10), for:

6d8+20, or an average of 47 damage, on a hit. Of course, you are getting a favorable houserule, and expending FOUR SPELLS (many noncore spells!) to do this, and are prebuffing, AND are charging (thus you need a chargelane), so you can pretty much only do this if you ambush someone...

[Sivarias]

The DM is adament about core + PHII.

Since fleshraker is in PHII I was thinking that I would use him.

The DM is using a lot of tieflings and such I think. I'm honestly not sure how he's going to handle this.

I've been using the Druid Handbook. and I think I'm doing summoning. Tactics would still be nice though.

Isn't Bull rush a minute/lvl spell though and a full round is 2 minutes right?

[Scow2]

Isn't Bull rush a minute/lvl spell though and a full round is 2 minutes right?
What? A full round is 10 seconds.

[Tvtyrant]

What? A full round is 10 seconds.

Pretty sure a round is 6 seconds. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm)

[Sivarias]

So Bull's Strength lasts for 10 of my turns per caster level?

[dascarletm]

Yes, 1 minute is 10 rounds, so 10rounds/lvl

[Sivarias]

My mistake, I though each turn in the initiative roster was 6 seconds.

1- Dave (6 seconds)
4-Sven (6 seconds)
20-Mary Sue (6 Seconds)

so 6 Seconds*20 turns= 2 minutes

[Gavinfoxx]

Lengths of Time in 3.5e:

A Round is 6 seconds

A turn is what you do within a round, when you get to go

You can take a Swift/Immediate, Move, Standard, and a few Free actions during your turn in that round, and that is what you do within that 6 seconds, but doing that doesn't take a full 6 seconds.

A full round action spell, ie 1 that takes '1 round' to cast, starts on your turn in that round, and comes into effect just before your turn starts next round.

A minute is 10 Rounds.

Also, initiative scores can be more than just 1 - 20. They can go into the thousands or negative, and are merely describing the order in which things happen within a round.