Racial Skin - No stat changes?

[Gwazi Magnum]

There was one system I had in mind during the beginning of my experience in d&d.

The idea was, race doesn't effect your stats.

There would be no skill changes, different ability scores etc for it.
The motivation being so you could be something like an Half-orc Wizard, Elven Fighter or Half-Elf anything without feeling like you're weakening yourself and constantly being reminded of it through out the game when you're less effective than typical or optimized character would be.

Now, obviously this goes out the window when races outside of the Players handbook comes in, but just in regards to races from the players handbook, what do you guys think of this sort of approach?

[Regitnui]

I'm... wary of this idea at best. Part of the flavour of the core races is lost when you start chopping their ability modifiers. And it's already largely cosmetic. If you want to roll a half-orc wizard or an elf fighter, there's no reason not to. You'll be slightly disadvantaged, but I can imagine that some players would enjoy that challenge.

So I don't like that idea much.

[Amnestic]

I'm curious as to how you address the Size differences (Halfling/Gnome) since those sizes have specific modifiers. It's part of the reason why Strongheart Halfling measures up well against Humans in some builds.

[Greenish]

Having the racial differences be purely cosmetic may work, but in general D&D doesn't quite go for that much of abstraction. In the system, it would feel… weird. I can't quite explain why, though.

[Telonius]

You'd have to keep the size modifiers for Halfling and Gnome. But otherwise there's not really any mechanical difference among the races. It would definitely be mechanically balanced, since everybody would essentially be playing the same race.

But I'm not sure I'd really want that. Half-elves just as strong as half-orcs? Dwarves just as nimble as elves? It just feels wrong.

[Gwazi Magnum]

I'm... wary of this idea at best. Part of the flavour of the core races is lost when you start chopping their ability modifiers. And it's already largely cosmetic. If you want to roll a half-orc wizard or an elf fighter, there's no reason not to. You'll be slightly disadvantaged, but I can imagine that some players would enjoy that challenge.

So I don't like that idea much.

This was the typical reaction to the idea.

But when restricted to PHB material (which was when I thought up this rule) it is a lot harder to make up for lower ability scores.


I'm curious as to how you address the Size differences (Halfling/Gnome) since those sizes have specific modifiers. It's part of the reason why Strongheart Halfling measures up well against Humans in some builds.

How I ruled it was everyone is treated a medium in a mechanic stance.

Not the best approach I know, but that was the idea a year or so ago and the idea/goal was to allow more abstract characters without penalties to your stats.

[Boci]

What about the racial substitution kobold fighter aproach? Races trade class features to make up for their poor stats, which represents them training to overcome their shortcoming for their chosen task.

[Gwazi Magnum]

You'd have to keep the size modifiers for Halfling and Gnome. But otherwise there's not really any mechanical difference among the races. It would definitely be mechanically balanced, since everybody would essentially be playing the same race.

But I'm not sure I'd really want that. Half-elves just as strong as half-orcs? Dwarves just as nimble as elves? It just feels wrong.

I forgot to mention the modifiers stay for NPCs.

It's just PC's who are different to represent they're adventurers and outside the norm.

Besides, you still got your ability scores to divide up, so if you didn't want a really strong half elf, just don't be a half elf with high strength.

[Gwazi Magnum]

What about the racial substitution kobold fighter aproach? Races trade class features to make up for their poor stats, which represents them training to overcome their shortcoming for their chosen task.

Developed before I knew of stuff like that.

What I would say for it now though?
I'd probably rule they level as typical fighter or you have the choice between which to take.

However, they're not a PHB race anyways and I stated above this would probably be scrapped once non-PHB races entered the picture.

[Greenish]

What about the racial substitution kobold fighter aproach? Races trade class features to make up for their poor stats, which represents them training to overcome their shortcoming for their chosen task.It has the problem of not all classes having equivalent stuff to trade out. (Also hey Boci, been a while.)

[Amnestic]

How I ruled it was everyone is treated a medium in a mechanic stance.


I know "fluff is mutable" and everything but that goes a bit beyond what I'm okay with, I think. I'd probably end up going with the other suggestion that races retain their size modifiers and not much else, if I were to go with your suggestion.

Still, I like that races are different. If I were to "fix" races to make them all more palatable from an optimisation standpoint I'd try to find ways to make them more equal to humans (by buffing them, rather than by nerfing humans).

[Boci]

It has the problem of not all classes having equivalent stuff to trade out.

Could be a problem. Fighters have feats, wizards and sorceror's have familiars. It only 1, max 2 trades though, I'm sure something could be cobbled together for each class.


(Also hey Boci, been a while.)

So it has Greenish.


Developed before I knew of stuff like that.

What I would say for it now though?
I'd probably rule they level as typical fighter or you have the choice between which to take.

However, they're not a PHB race anyways and I stated above this would probably be scrapped once non-PHB races entered the picture.

I was suggesting it as an alternative, as it would solve the problem you outlined in the OP without the hesitation people seem to have for your aproach.

[Gwazi Magnum]

I was suggesting it as an alternative, as it would solve the problem you outlined in the OP without the hesitation people seem to have for your aproach.

Ah I see, that could work.

I'd have to look more into it though and it also means a ton of racail sub classes are coming up if that's the case :P

[Fouredged Sword]

Reminds me of a setting I was working on. It was post end of the world DnD with dragon/dinosaurs being the alpha predator.

All other races intermingled after the collapse of magic and the result was a small humanoid with +2 to a stat of their choice, 2 feats at first level, and 1 extra skillpoint per character level.

Then I let there be a feat called throwback, and it allowed you to be treated like another race, and gave you that races racial bonuses except for stat bonuses, so low light/dark vision, racial skill bonuses, ect. Even Goliath for powerful build (ie count as medium)

I never got to playtest, but it seemed like a cool idea.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Sounds fun, defelently opens the door for racial customization.

Somewhat off-topic but does anyone know of a system to deal with non-typical half breeds like Dwarf and Human, Halfling and elf? Drawf and Elf? Maybe Half breed mixes like Half Orc and Half Elf?

[SowZ]

Using this for PCs would be fine. What you would have to do, I think, is take away the stat modifiers, (for PCs only. You are exceptional. As a wizard among the Orcs, you are just as smart as a human.) But you'd have to retain racial abilities and size modifiers to keep the setting consistent. (Take away bonus feats for Stronghearts and Humans.) After all, dwarves should still be more proficient with Dwarven weapons and Elves shouldn't sleep and Orcs should have darkvision. So you'd keep the other races abilities to keep them on par.

[Zombulian]

I'm not really a fan of this idea. As others have pointed out, sometimes it's fun to play someone who isn't *the best* at what they do, or maybe they are, and you just worked hard to make sure they were.
One of my favorite characters so far was a half-orc diplomancer.

[shortround]

I personally agree with Boci's suggestion. I understand that the purpose of this change is to encourage more abstractly fluffed characters, but I feel like its missing the point. The Dwarf sorcerer, for example, isn't supposed to be like a Human sorcerer. What makes the Dwarf sorcerer exceptional is that he has to adapt his magic so that it works for him (focusing on buffs and combat rather than Save-or-die/loses) and I understand that the 'exceptionalness' is the charm of playing the oddity character in the first place. Racial substitution levels help in indicating what makes the odd characters exceptional and further emphasizes that "this [sorcerer] is different from other [sorcerers] and this is how". By making all races purely cosmetic, the options remain, but now there really is no mechanical difference for making suboptimal choices.

[RevenantBob]

I'd never run a game like this myself. D&D is already a system lacking in flavor. People tend to build very cookie cutter. Race is one of the few flavors that matter in choice.

World of Gray Characters isn't my idea of a good game.

[Spuddles]

It's interesting, and I definitely would be intrigued to play it. Race optimization is a huge part of the low level games I play in.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Using this for PCs would be fine. What you would have to do, I think, is take away the stat modifiers, (for PCs only. You are exceptional. As a wizard among the Orcs, you are just as smart as a human.) But you'd have to retain racial abilities and size modifiers to keep the setting consistent. (Take away bonus feats for Stronghearts and Humans.) After all, dwarves should still be more proficient with Dwarven weapons and Elves shouldn't sleep and Orcs should have darkvision. So you'd keep the other races abilities to keep them on par.

Fair point, plus they don't effect classes so I may allow them to stay.

However, what this means is should humans then keep bonus skill points or feats? If not they become the worse race there is, if they do they suddenly become a bit OP due to lack of racial ability score optimization.


I personally agree with Boci's suggestion. I understand that the purpose of this change is to encourage more abstractly fluffed characters, but I feel like its missing the point. The Dwarf sorcerer, for example, isn't supposed to be like a Human sorcerer. What makes the Dwarf sorcerer exceptional is that he has to adapt his magic so that it works for him (focusing on buffs and combat rather than Save-or-die/loses) and I understand that the 'exceptionalness' is the charm of playing the oddity character in the first place. Racial substitution levels help in indicating what makes the odd characters exceptional and further emphasizes that "this [sorcerer] is different from other [sorcerers] and this is how". By making all races purely cosmetic, the options remain, but now there really is no mechanical difference for making suboptimal choices.

This is a fair point too.
I guess is boils down to personal preference though here.

On if you prefer the mechanical challenge against you to overcome and vary from, you just want a different skin for your guy and don't want mechanics to weaken you for it.

I admit this is a rule that would not be appropriate for every d&d group.