Build Advice - Charismatic Con Artist/Gambler/Thief Type - D&D 3.5

[NewWorldMan]

Long time D&D player of close to 20 years here, looking for opinions on a build. I've searched the forums and found tons of similar threads and builds, but nothing quite spot on for what I'm looking for. I'm confident in all of the characters that I build and play, but I thought it would be nice to view a character through someone's eyes for a few and see if anyone puts a spin on the character I may not have thought about. Without further ado, here's my guidelines...

Character Level - Starting at 5th level, will advance from there.
RP or Optimized - I'm not concerned with making the most advanced, god-like character possible. I want someone that exemplifies the persona I'm shooting for, and the character will be role-played during sessions. Character optimization and min-maxing isn't as important to me as capturing the essence of the character.
Point Buy - Character is built from a point buy system. Starting stats are 17, 16, 15, 15, 14, 12 with 4 additional points to add, taking no stat above 18 (before racial modifiers). Get +1 to 2 different stats every 4 levels instead of 1, so this character would also have +1 to 2 stats achieved at Level 4.
Source Material - Anything from the official books from Wizards for 3.5 (some 3.0 if it's not covered by 3.5), as well as the updates from the website. No Dragon Magazine or 3rd party books.

What I'm looking for a swashbuckling, charismatic con artist. A guy who uses his wits as much as his blades to get out of trouble. He's a fast talker and a charmer, seduces a king's daughter to get into a vault and lift some high priced jewels - not because he wants the money, but because he likes the sport of it. He's a thrill seeker and risk taker. He loves to gamble (would have ranks in "Profession: Gambler") and uses his looks, charm and wit to get him through life. Always seems to have a solution for every situation, whether it be through tricks and skills or makeshift gadgets. He slips out of bonds, slides down railings, swings from chandeliers, and has assumed more identities over time than he can count, though he never stays with one.

Playing a Feytouched or running a Half-Elf with a Half-Fey Template (taking just the first level of it per the Savage Progressions tables) is appealing to me, viewing his mother as a Nymph and father as a Half-Elf that was enthralled with her (lending his looks and charm) with the template, or having the Feytouched that's an Elf with a Nymph in his lineage (perhaps grandparent). The other option would possibly be a Lesser Aasimar, though I'm less intrigued by it - unless I used the Lesser Aasimar and then added one level of the Half-Fey template, giving him a little of both in his lineage, though that may border on insanity... :P

It seems like a Bard or Rogue (or some variation) would fit the bill, possibly a Daring Outlaw type (Swashbuckler/Rogue), but I'm open to your suggestions. Can be straight leveled or multi-classed. Factotum seems like it may make the most sense overall, or a Factotum multi-class. I'd rather stay away from caster builds unless we're talking about dipping a level or two.

Anyway, let me know what you come up with, and thanks for any insight provided!

[Diovid]

Glimmerskin Halfling (Dragon Magic) Bard going into either Luckstealer (Races of the Wild) or Fortune's Friend (Complete Scoundrel) or both? See the note in Complete Scoundrel about how Luckstealer can be used with Luck feats. Possibly use one of the Bard acfs so that you debuff your opponent instead of buffing your allies.

Alternatively use a Fighter with the Zhentarim substitution levels (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a), the Sneak Attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighter) variant, the Dead Levels (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20061013a) variant and either the Thug (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighterVariantThug) variant or the Hit-and-Run variant (Drow of the Underdark). Then use Skilled City-Dweller (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) to switch your skills around. Take Scarlet Corsair (Stormwrack) as your prestige class. Focus on bluffing, feiting and intimidating. Possibly be a Desert Half-Orc (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/environmentalRacialVariants.htm#desertHalfOrcs), take 1 level of Half-Orc Paragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/racialParagonClasses.htm#halfOrcParagon) and the Manacing Demeanor feat (Races of Destiny). Also see: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3809. Go for something like Fighter 5 / Half-Orc Paragon 1 / Fighter +4 / Scarlet Corsair 10.

[Person_Man]

So Dexterity/Charisma, Skillful, and mobile. Right?

If so, my thoughts:

Sociable Personality Feat: You can reroll any Diplomacy or Gather Information check. Requires that you be a Half-Elf (which is generally considered one of the weakest races in the game). Races of Destiny pg 153.
Snowflake Wardance: As a Free Action you can burn a Bardic Music use to gain your Cha bonus to hit for a number of rounds equal to your Perform Skill. Frostburn pg 50.
Combat Panache: Offers several maneuvers. The main benefit is that you can make an Intimidate check (Move Action) to impose your Cha bonus as a penalty to hit against one enemy until the end of the encounter. In addition, after an enemy hits you, you can make a Bluff check to play dead. So if you’re close to death and afraid of multiple attacks before you can heal or run away, this will make your enemies ignore you for until you choose to get up. The only downside is that the feat requires 8 ranks in Bluff, Intimidate, and Perform, so it'll probably be your 6th level Feat if you want it. PHBII pg 93.
Swordsage/Crusader/PrC: Lots of fun, dramatic that move you around the battlefield, plus Tumble, Diplomacy, etc.
Binder with Naberius and/or Paimon vestige. Binder is Cha based. Naberius gives you large buffs to Disguise, Diplomacy (which can be rushed/used in combat without penalty), and Bluff, plus at will Command once every 5 rounds, and the ability to heal ability damage every round. This last ability is very important for using several potent feats (check out Chosen of Evil, Dark Speech, Dark Whispers, Insane Defianc, Evil Blessing), drugs (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8235956&postcount=11), and the Festering Anger (Book of Vile Darkness) disease or if you want to eventually head into Hellfire Warlock. Paimon gives +4 Dex, Uncanny Dodge, Whirlwind Attack, Dance of Death (move and hit everyone you move past) and some Skill buffs.
Incarnate: A ridiculously complex class. But the big draw is that it multi-classes well, and at ECL 5ish it can grant a floating +10 bonus to almost any Skill, and can grant a wide variety of useful defensive abilities (flight, Evasion, Energy Resistance, Damage Reduction, Spell Resistance, etc) which you can swap out every morning.

[gorfnab]

What I'm looking for a swashbuckling, charismatic con artist. A guy who uses his wits as much as his blades to get out of trouble. He's a fast talker and a charmer, seduces a king's daughter to get into a vault and lift some high priced jewels - not because he wants the money, but because he likes the sport of it. He's a thrill seeker and risk taker. He loves to gamble (would have ranks in "Profession: Gambler") and uses his looks, charm and wit to get him through life. Always seems to have a solution for every situation, whether it be through tricks and skills or makeshift gadgets. He slips out of bonds, slides down railings, swings from chandeliers, and has assumed more identities over time than he can count, though he never stays with one.


Factotum (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=8685) would fit your description.

[NewWorldMan]

Thanks for the suggestions! After looking over what everyone is suggesting, I think I'm leaning towards a Feytouched Factotum right now, and just staying true in the advancement.

The starting level actually moved up to 7, and starting cash is now at 28,500 (1.5 times starting for a 7th level character per the DMG). I've arranged my stats as follows...

Essentially, what I did was was arrange my starting stats (17, 15, 15, 14, 13, 12) as follows:

STR 12, DEX 14, CON 15, INT 17, WIS 15, CHA 13

I then had 4 points to add where I saw fit (taking nothing higher than 18 before racial modifiers (so I went +1 to CON, INT, WIS, CHA). Added in racial modifiers (+2 DEX, +2 CHA, -2 CON) and then added in +1 to 2 stats at Level 4 (INT and DEX) finally landing me at:

STR 12, DEX 17, CON 14, INT 19, WIS 16, CHA 16

Anyone see a better way of assigning those stats for the character as I intend to play him? At Level 8, I would then take my DEX to an 18 and my INT to a 20.

For weaponry, I was considering going the light crossbow route, getting a +1 (or +2) Quick Loading Light Crossbow and picking up the feats for Rapid Shot to sit at 3 shots per round (as a free action, still having my move action) and being able to pick and choose between various bolts per shot for various purposes with the extradimensional space of the quick loading (poison, bane, etc).

That's my current thoughts, at least. I haven't thought too far into what gear would work well for him.

[Vaz]

Bind Vestige for Naberius if you don't want a Binder dip, although it is highly advised.

Half Elf Bard for the reroll diplo checks.

[OzymandiasX]

I like the Invisible Blade prestige class for this concept with levels of Swashbuckler.

The free-action feint with dagger-type weapons seems perfect, as it makes use the the Bluff ranks (and high Cha) you'd probably have with a con artist. It lets him work well even when alone or if he gets caught in the middle of a scam.

The fact that he specializes in daggers also helps with the concept that he can easily conceal how deadly he is. All with plenty of skill points to go around and full sneak attacks...

[Gwazi Magnum]

I have to ask why you're increasing your intelligence more and more during level ups.

RP wise an Intelligence of 16 perfectly captures your concept, plus you do not gain skill points from past levels when you increase Intelligence (unless if you house-ruled it in, if so ignore this statement).

Though Intelligence seems like the icing for your characters, while most of it seems to be dependent around Dexterity and Charisma.

So you might want to increase your Charisma some more, I mean 16 is still enough to get your job done both from an RP and mechanics perspective, but the higher your Charisma the even more looks, charm and wit he'll probably have (and the knowledge to use them well) which seems to be a prime focus on your person.

For your Nymph history, if you want one parent to be a half-elf and you to be a half-elf then the Nymph will also need to be a half-elf.

All Nymphs are either Elves, Humans or Half-Elves.

If a half-elf has a child with a human or elf the child is the race of the other parent because then it's dominant human genes or dominant elf genes. So from that standpoint the only way to be a half elf whose parent was a half elf would be for both of them to be half elves.

As for classes?

I'm thinking either Bard or Martial Rogue.

Bard is you either don't mind your character singing in battle or making a variant where he's not singing. Because Bard seems to fit your bill almost perfectly, has a blade, sweet talks, charismatic etc.

Martial Rogue is a bit more skilled and can have good use for Charisma if you focus on a lot of skills being social based. Reason I suggest Martial though is because from your description he probably won't be the kind to hide and sneak attack a lot, so the Martial Rogues bonus feats can allow you to get more into the dueling blade concept rather than a dagger holding sneak attacker.

However Bard is probably your best bet from the two.

I'm not the best when it comes to Factotum, but note with him he is not truly skilled in every skill. He just acts like it once a day. If you want your guy to be more charming, skilled, bright across the board and not depend on one time a day things, Factotum may not be for you.

Plus you can take the Bard's Bardic Knack variant so you are decently skilled in any skill anyways.

[NewWorldMan]

I hadn't really given much consideration to Invisible Blade. I'll check it out!

How about Factotum 5/Uncanny Trickster 2? Seems like that may fit what I'm shooting for as well. I could round that out to Factotum 7/Uncanny Trickster 3 by 10th level, and I'd essentially have all the abilities of a 9th level Factotum, with 6 more skill points, 1 point better REF save, 3 bonus tricks (including 3 favorite tricks), and tricky defense. I'd have the exact same BAB. The only thing I'd be missing out on would be 3 HP's (on avg) and I'd be 1 level behind in Spell Level and Inspiration point progressions, which doesn't seem like a hight price to pay.

Am I missing something here? The advantages seem like taking all 3 in Uncanny Trickster would be win-win.

[Gwazi Magnum]

If there's a ton of skill tricks you find you want to use then good ahead with Uncanny Trickster. It looks like it will compliment you a lot.

Otherwise avoid the class, if you don't have much use for most skill tricks then the entire basis of the class is pointless for you.

[NewWorldMan]

I have to ask why you're increasing your intelligence more and more during level ups.

RP wise an Intelligence of 16 perfectly captures your concept, plus you do not gain skill points from past levels when you increase Intelligence (unless if you house-ruled it in, if so ignore this statement).

Though Intelligence seems like the icing for your characters, while most of it seems to be dependent around Dexterity and Charisma.

The INT bumps were based on running with the Factotum angle. It's central to the Factotum's abilities, plus the extra bumps in skills from Brains Over Brawn are taken from INT. If I go with a Bard or other, then INT wouldn't be such a high focus for me.


So you might want to increase your Charisma some more, I mean 16 is still enough to get your job done both from an RP and mechanics perspective, but the higher your Charisma the even more looks, charm and wit he'll probably have (and the knowledge to use them well) which seems to be a prime focus on your person.

I guess my thought was that I'd likely never take the CHA higher than an 18 (unless it's a Bard I make), so a 16 would get the job done from RP and a mechanics perspective (only being 1 point less in face skills when the extra attribute points could be spent elsewhere).


For your Nymph history, if you want one parent to be a half-elf and you to be a half-elf then the Nymph will also need to be a half-elf.

All Nymphs are either Elves, Humans or Half-Elves.

If a half-elf has a child with a human or elf the child is the race of the other parent because then it's dominant human genes or dominant elf genes. So from that standpoint the only way to be a half elf whose parent was a half elf would be for both of them to be half elves.

I wasn't necessarily looking to be a Half-Elf. I was just stating I'd have - from a RP and background perspective - the father be a Half-Elf and the mother be a Nymph, hence, he would have Human, Elven, and Nymph blood in his lineage, though from a mechanical perspective, he'd run as a Half-Elf with a Half-Fey template (1 level from the Savage Progressions). There's no advantage to running as a Half-Elf and not another race with the template. It's simply for story and RP implications. Same to be said of the Feytouched, where I'd just view his parents as being an Elf and Human, with a Nymph in that bloodline leading to him being Feytouched.


As for classes?

I'm thinking either Bard or Martial Rogue.

Bard is you either don't mind your character singing in battle or making a variant where he's not singing. Because Bard seems to fit your bill almost perfectly, has a blade, sweet talks, charismatic etc.

Martial Rogue is a bit more skilled and can have good use for Charisma if you focus on a lot of skills being social based. Reason I suggest Martial though is because from your description he probably won't be the kind to hide and sneak attack a lot, so the Martial Rogues bonus feats can allow you to get more into the dueling blade concept rather than a dagger holding sneak attacker.

However Bard is probably your best bet from the two.

I'm not the best when it comes to Factotum, but note with him he is not truly skilled in every skill. He just acts like it once a day. If you want your guy to be more charming, skilled, bright across the board and not depend on one time a day things, Factotum may not be for you.

Plus you can take the Bard's Bardic Knack variant so you are decently skilled in any skill anyways.

I'm still heavily considering Bard, but I hadn't thought about a Martial Rogue! That's something to check into!

What's your thoughts on the Factotum 7/Uncanny Trickster 3 progression, or even a Bard 7/Uncanny Trickster 3?

[NewWorldMan]

If there's a ton of skill tricks you find you want to use then good ahead with Uncanny Trickster. It looks like it will compliment you a lot.

Otherwise avoid the class, if you don't have much use for most skill tricks then the entire basis of the class is pointless for you.

Sniped! :P I just asked about this above. I probably will grab at least a handful of skill tricks to give him a cinematic feel, so I may add this into whatever primary route I go, whether it's Factotum, Bard, Rogue, etc. I don't see much downside to it.

[Gwazi Magnum]

The INT bumps were based on running with the Factotum angle. It's central to the Factotum's abilities, plus the extra bumps in skills from Brains Over Brawn are taken from INT. If I go with a Bard or other, then INT wouldn't be such a high focus for me.

Ah I see, that makes more sense.




I guess my thought was that I'd likely never take the CHA higher than an 18 (unless it's a Bard I make), so a 16 would get the job done from RP and a mechanics perspective (only being 1 point less in face skills when the extra attribute points could be spent elsewhere).

Fair enough.
Though normally from my experience a very social character/face of the party normally wants Charisma to be the highest or one of their highest scores.

Only exception being if you're able to munchkin/power-build your way around being low Charisma but still social, or you simply power-built your other skills really high for other purposes.

That being said though, the face shouldn't have really high Charisma for the sake of being the face.
You should always be gaining other benefits off of Charisma or you're crippiling yourself.

For Bard's it's music and spells per day.
For Rogues honestly it's not much, but unless if you go sneak attacker their based around their skills anyways.
For Paladins it's the saving throws

etc.


I wasn't necessarily looking to be a Half-Elf. I was just stating I'd have - from a RP and background perspective - the father be a Half-Elf and the mother be a Nymph, hence, he would have Human, Elven, and Nymph blood in his lineage, though from a mechanical perspective, he'd run as a Half-Elf with a Half-Fey template (1 level from the Savage Progressions). There's no advantage to running as a Half-Elf and not another race with the template. It's simply for story and RP implications. Same to be said of the Feytouched, where I'd just view his parents as being an Elf and Human, with a Nymph in that bloodline leading to him being Feytouched.

I'm just saying if you're using the half-elf template your character is probably a half-elf so the Nymph would have to be a Half-elf too.

Unless if you're going re-skin, but if it's a re-skin why use the Half-elfs stats?

For example: My 1st d&d 3.5 character was skin wise a half-elf for flavour reasons, but so it wouldn't cripple me too much in game my DM allowed me to use Humans stats instead.



I'm still heavily considering Bard, but I hadn't thought about a Martial Rogue! That's something to check into!

What's your thoughts on the Factotum 7/Uncanny Trickster 3 progression, or even a Bard 7/Uncanny Trickster 3?

I have not read much into Factotum tbh.
I've looked at it before but it wasn't really much I interest.
I personally found it to be too 'daily skill use' dependent for my liking.

I want my characters to be naturally good in something, not only good once a day and then forgets what the hell he just did. Just imagine Albert Enstein giving a lecture on his newest theory and then walking off stage to simply forget what mixing vinegar and baking soda does. Then waking up the next day to remember it all again and repeat.

That's my personal take on the class though, if you like Factotum then go ahead and use it, more power to ya.

Uncanny Trickster I can only suggest if you're a big fan of a good amount of skill tricks.
If there's only a small handful you like, Uncanny Trickster may be a class to pass on.

Bard I would suggest if you either:

a) Don't mind the fact your characters main use in many situations will be singing
b) House rule a variant with the DM where he's doing something other than singing to use his bardic music abilities

But note that's not even all the Bard offers, there's Bardic Knowledge (Or Knack if you'd rather be more skilled across the board than knowledgeable on rumors of each town you find), and the spells which is powerful enough to be a very good tool in your arsenal but not broken like a Wizard or Sorcerer so you'll resort to diplomacy and sword fighting a lot of the time too.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Sniped! :P I just asked about this above. I probably will grab at least a handful of skill tricks to give him a cinematic feel, so I may add this into whatever primary route I go, whether it's Factotum, Bard, Rogue, etc. I don't see much downside to it.

Sniped! :P

In that case, Uncanny Trickster probably would be a good choice for you then.

[gorfnab]

8th level of Factotum is awesome. Cunning Surge nets you extra standard action which is huge in terms of action economy. For a 10th level build Factotum 8/ Uncanny Trickster 2 is okay. Factotum 8/ Chameleon 2 is really nice. Invisible Blade is okay in some builds. One problem though is because of an unfortunate errata its Uncanny Feint ability can only be used once per round. However, the feat Surprising Riposte (DotU) can make it so that the opponent stays flat-footed for the entire round after a successful feint.