Defiance (Spoilers) [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Kitten Champion

2013-04-16, 11:55 PM

It's a western, I enjoy westerns. I enjoy them even knowing the genre is pretty much using the same few ideas over and over again.

I kind of find the video game-y stuff is going to be an albatross on the neck of this. Not because of the quality of CGI which I don't care about. Movies like LOTR, District 9, Avatar, and even Who Framed Rodger Rabbit have shown how writing, acting, art direction, and capable animators can work together to humanize purely imaginary characters and make us sympathize with them. The issue is video games specifically.

Westerns are almost entirely man-versus-man conflicts, while characters can quickly be reduced to archetypes if not stereotypes - the ones which stick with you develop the protagonist and antagonist characters over the narrative leading to some very, very thick tension going into the climax. The stories are simple, the conflict is usually something you can reduce to a sentence or paragraph at most. What drives the genre are a few memorable characters be they villains, heroes, or something in between.

Video games, are much more about wave after wave of disposable enemies. Something you don't really have ethical problems slaughtering wholesale. Sure, there are Big Bads who get character development and drive the plot, but otherwise there are lots of pixels to hack, shoot, or ATTACK command your way through. There are no emotional qualms or even any real dislike for zombies you're clubbing to death.

For reference, consider "Cowboys versus Aliens". The idea of gunslingers coming together to fight an apocalyptic alien invasion does sound cool, but well... it quickly loses your interest as CGI replaces more understandable human conflict. I'd rather see Harrison Ford and Daniel Craig fight one another as morally ambiguous but complex characters who end up on opposite sides of some petty conflict over pride, money, women, or what have you. Aliens are cool and all, but if you can replace them with any generic faceless enemy rather than a civilization with sufficient intelligence to build space ships that transverse the stars - they are just... meh.

Now consider Firefly, where even the Reavers - the closest to mindless monsters that setting has - are interesting. Whedon spends enough time to introduce them slowly that there's genuine payoff when they do appear. Every other villain in the world stands out in some way.

Sure, the conclusion of the Defiance pilot wasn't terrible. Very Magnificent Seven, which is fine. You want to show the spirit of hope, bravery, and resilience underlying the seeming bleakness of the setting - that the town has to matter to those living in it or why should we bother caring.

However, alien monsters with mechs which you've only introduced minutes previously doesn't leave much of an impact. They could have replaced them with the raiders from the beginning, give them some build up and distinction, have one of those shouted conversations where hero tries to convince them "it's not worth their trouble" from behind makeshift fortification, all while stalling for time while their contraption is put into place until they realize what's going on an start the gun-fighting. The aliens might fulfill their role as generic game antagonists but lack the sophistication to be more than that at this point.

Hiro Protagonest

2013-04-17, 06:15 PM

Well, I thought the pilot was meh.

Since I haven't actually seen a lot of shows like this, I can't really name anything, so I'll focus on the thing I actually know about, the battle.

1. Why the hell were there so many fully automatic weapons, and the only person to use a shotgun was the policeman (for lack of a better term)?

2. If they chose the automatics over the shotguns for the purposes of range and rate of fire, then why the hell did I see MP5Ks? Their range sucks, and I have no idea how pistol rounds could even dent the enemies' heavy armor (I'm going to assume that... wait, I just realized I can't remember anyone's name. I'm going to assume that the main character's pistol is .45 caliber or something). And hell, the main character knew they were climbers, why didn't he assign some shotguns to knock the Vulge off the cliffs (although apparently, MP5s work fine for that)?

TheEmerged

2013-04-18, 07:32 AM

Well, I thought the pilot was meh.

...(I'm going to assume that... wait, I just realized I can't remember anyone's name...

I missed the pilot due to real world stuff, but I have to say - if I were the writer of this show, what you just said would scare the <censored> out of me. I can't think of a worse insult to a show. :smalleek:

Hiro Protagonest

2013-04-18, 01:21 PM

Hopeless

2013-04-19, 06:44 AM

I'm hoping to catch this tonight!

TheSummoner

2013-04-19, 01:11 PM

I missed the pilot due to real world stuff, but I have to say - if I were the writer of this show, what you just said would scare the <censored> out of me. I can't think of a worse insult to a show. :smalleek:

To be fair, Game of Thrones had the same problem when it premiered. If you hadn't read the books (and thus had no prior knowledge) there were just too many characters introduced in too short a timeframe to remember many names.

I missed the premiere as well, though the previews did catch my interest. Sci-fi really isn't my thing, but I did want to give this a shot.

Callos_DeTerran

2013-04-20, 12:06 AM

I don't watch much Sci-Fi to be honest, but I think I'm going to watch Defiance...maybe play the game too!

Nolen is a fun protagonist to have, the mayor (...Anna? Jenna? I think it's Anna) is as well.

...And the Indogene doctor is hilarious!

Silverraptor

2013-04-20, 12:36 AM

I'm disappointed that they're charging $60 to play their game. I have enough FPS already that I don't have the means or the money to pay that much for another. If they really wanted to promote the show, making it F2P with bonus content you can purchase might've been the better option, but oh well.

Hopeless

2013-04-20, 04:22 AM

Only managed to watch a portion of the two part opener... agree about the doctor left wondering as I missed far too much to get a handle on the cast although... interesting leadership figures!:smallwink:

Sounded like something is buried beneath Defiance, given the lead actor was present there when the new arrivals first arrived makes me wonder if he knows what they might be looking for?

JadedDM

2013-04-20, 10:09 AM

Nolen is a fun protagonist to have, the mayor (...Anna? Jenna? I think it's Anna) is as well.

Amanda.

As for the show, I was...intrigued. At least enough to give the second episode a chance.

It seems character driven so far, which I like. I had to check the wikipedia page for it, though, just to get a basic understanding of what was going on, what all of the races are, and the bulk of the backstory, however.

Hiro Protagonest

2013-04-20, 02:37 PM

Amanda.

Yeah, it was Amanda.

I realized that was the sole name I remembered, because I remembered the scene with the line "please, call me Amanda".

Sgt. Cookie

2013-04-20, 02:48 PM

I rather liked it, to be honest. It's a little standard fare right now, but I'm willing to give it a shot.

If nothing else, it's better than almost everything else on telly.

JadedDM

2013-04-21, 02:12 AM

Yeah, it was Amanda.

I realized that was the sole name I remembered, because I remembered the scene with the line "please, call me Amanda".

I remembered it for the same reason, although it actually happened at least twice (she said it to two different characters, I believe).

I rather liked it, to be honest. It's a little standard fare right now, but I'm willing to give it a shot.

If nothing else, it's better than almost everything else on telly.

Wow, talk about damning with faint praise. But I agree. It didn't blow me away, but it was interesting enough to keep me interested for now, and there's not a whole lot of good stuff on TV right now, especially on Monday nights.

Sgt. Cookie

2013-04-21, 10:10 AM

Tuesday for us Brits. We get it a day after you Americans.

Don't get me wrong, I liked it, but it didn't really change up the formula all that much.

Emmerask

2013-04-22, 07:44 AM

I think it was okay but I have some doubts for the future.

The biggest problem I have is that they most likely will now stay in the city, I would it prefer much more if the show would focus on the two main characters traveling this new earth though that would maybe be too expensive.

I did not really like the main cast as much as the firefly one, the daughter is kind of annoying (though at least she is not helpless, annoying helpless characters are the worst ;))
The protagonist was okay, hes not a Nathan Fillion but well.

The main problem however remains that I just don´t see it going in a fun (for me) direction in the future.
Some scavenging episodes (they could be fun)
Some we have problems due to the variety of beings living here episodes... :smallfrown:
Then we will get episodes with the daughter having this and that problem :smallfrown::smallfrown:

And yes I agree that it should have been the raiders attacking, these gorilla/mech aliens where never introduced and came completely out of nowhere.

Overall I think it would have been much better to actually introduce the aliens that are now on earth with a few short sentences in the beginning of the show.

Hopeless

2013-04-22, 08:43 AM

It made me wonder how people would react if the closing scene showed one of the cast seemingly walk through a door going home and then looking out of the window on the other side of the room and we realise she's looking out on the present day...

Exactly who are considered "alien" would make an interesting subplot.

Sorry couldn't help feeling it would work better if they hinted at something extraordinary that noone else in the cast knows about.

Probably deserves a thread of its own a sort of what would you like to see in a show like Defiance that would interest you kind of thing...

Mando Knight

2013-04-22, 01:48 PM

Sounded like something is buried beneath Defiance, given the lead actor was present there when the new arrivals first arrived makes me wonder if he knows what they might be looking for?
Given only basic knowledge of the setting and a few trailers... I'd say it's most of St. Louis. There's serious terraforming going on there... as in, the landscape is completely unrecognizable except for the Gateway Arch.

Which means that obviously, people are looking for the recipe to either toasted ravioli or frozen custard. :smalltongue:

navar100

2013-05-01, 02:30 PM

Defiance continues its recycling of stories, though admittedly this one I haven't seen in awhile: Bad guy's parents killed for land, child grows up to get revenge on the killers and escalates it to everyone. The ending is the same as always. The stolen land is returned then leased to the current users since what they're using it for is so vital to the Community.

Naturally someone gets visions. I was wondering when that would show up. I'll be surprised if she gets them every episode from now on in a regular basis. Usually it doesn't happen again until the season finale. Odds are strong she won't have them next episode. We'll see.

Actually liking the show, though.

navar100

2013-05-06, 10:07 PM

Finally a non-repetitive plot! Character development is still cliche, such as the shady nightclub owner getting on the town council with the aid of his scheming wife, but that's old news. The main plot is at least different. Granted it's not truly original, a basic kidnapping of the loved one of a main character, but it was at least unpredictable which direction they would take it. The "fake escape" isn't new, but at least I hadn't been able to call on it. I was able to remain interested in what was going on.

I did call it there wouldn't be any visions this episode. They took the easy way by not having the character appear at all, just one non-talking scene to show she was there. The coming attractions have her be more prominent next episode, and I think there was a hint she had a vision. I'll have to wait until next week for that.

While the Hero is a Good Guy and Smart, I am liking they aren't making him a "Saint".

Hiro Protagonest

2013-05-06, 10:18 PM

Crap, I forgot to watch! Luckily, they have 10 pm replays (11 for you east coasters)... only missed about a quarter so far.

warty goblin

2013-05-06, 11:02 PM

Now consider Firefly, where even the Reavers - the closest to mindless monsters that setting has - are interesting. Whedon spends enough time to introduce them slowly that there's genuine payoff when they do appear. Every other villain in the world stands out in some way.

The Reavers are completely uninteresting on their own merits; they only work because the actual characters are consistently and convincingly crazy scared of them. But outside that they're almost entirely boring.

*gun stuff*
Getting the gun-wank correct is not what makes a narrative show work. Or in other words, this is why we can't have nice things.

navar100

2013-05-13, 11:11 PM

Got bored a third way through and stopped watching. More of the same. VIctim captures past torturer for revenge. Don't really care if he was innocent as he claimed, as I didn't see the ending. Transport gets robbed while transporting prisoner. Yawn. Throw in some good old fashion She-Woman Man-Sissiness for a post-apocalyptic world. At least it's not Man-Hating. My enthusiasm, such as it is, is waning.

Corvus

2013-05-21, 03:38 AM

The latest ep threw an interesting twist into things.

Turns out that the artifact and the glyphs predated the arrival of the Votan, if I understood what they were saying. Or maybe at least the official arrival...

Silverraptor

2013-05-21, 12:14 PM

Okay, the show is starting to lose my interest now. I mean, they throw us into a completely terraformed earth, and they don't do anything, and they don't explain anything either. I look at this and say, hey cool, that's an alien, now who completely changed earths landscape and who are we suppose to root for? I mean, they could have picked a completely different planet and nothing would have changed.:smallannoyed:

JadedDM

2013-05-21, 05:51 PM

The latest ep threw an interesting twist into things.

Could make things interesting, depending on where they go with it.

I mean, they could have picked a completely different planet and nothing would have changed.

I have a suspicion the whole 'terraformed earth' thing was just an excuse to have alien locales and monsters for the video game.

navar100

2013-05-22, 06:05 PM

I was away for a long weekend. Missed this week's episode. Not unhappy about that. I'll consider seeing it the hour before next episode. I guess it's really not one of my 'must sees' as is "Revolution" afterwards.

Silverraptor

2013-05-22, 06:16 PM

Could make things interesting, depending on where they go with it.

I have a suspicion the whole 'terraformed earth' thing was just an excuse to have alien locales and monsters for the video game.

Which is not really working, for me atleast. Why would I pay $60 for a First Person Shooter when I have a number of other FPS I play regularly, especially for a FPS that I'm losing interest of the story it relates to? Now, if the game was free, that might, depending on the game, pique my interest into keep watching the show. But they rather price it as if it was a Call of Duty game being released.:smallannoyed:

Edit:

@V Another good point. If your going to establish a story based around an entirely changed earth, make us care. I don't know enough about these alien races. I don't know which ones are originally friendly to humans and which aren't. I don't know what happened in the invading war. I only have this preconceived notion that all 6 of these alien races dropped in and started invading and changing our planet and then in the middle of this war decided, "Okay, we'll stop fighting now." I mean, if your going to have 7 different alien species, give us back stories and developed "How we got here" explanations on the first episode or very early on so we can care about the characters better.

If your going to write a series with aliens we know nothing about, get us to care by giving us enough information to form our own opinions.:smallannoyed:

Mando Knight

2013-05-22, 06:59 PM

I have a suspicion the whole 'terraformed earth' thing was just an excuse to have alien locales and monsters for the video game.

...Which couldn't have been easily set on another planet?

Hiro Protagonest

2013-05-22, 07:40 PM

I guess it's really not one of my 'must sees' as is "Revolution" afterwards.

...Are you saying Revolution is or isn't one of your must sees?

Calemyr

2013-05-23, 10:18 AM

For my part, I've tried to give the show a fighting chance. I really did. What I read about the background and interplay of the Votan races was fascinating and the basic concepts are intriguing.

But the actual show is just... insufficient. This show lives in the land of "Almost but Not Quite". Every aspect of the show is filled with promise that is hinted at, but never used in a meaningful way. Every scene, every character is handled in a way that is just... off... by the smallest degree. It tries very hard, but doesn't actually get anything right.

And then there's the just blatant overuse of "love scenes" (and I use the term loosely), which seem included in every episode by some contractual obligation and only serve to make things uncomfortable. This crew definitely includes people who made the Battlestar Galactica reboot, and what they apparently walked away with from that show is "next time, we will show more skin and less class".

My brother and I have the latest episode on the DVR, but we just can't bring ourselves to watch it. The show is just a line of disappointments interspersed with moments "was that really necessary?" thrown in for good measure.

navar100

2013-05-23, 02:24 PM

...Are you saying Revolution is or isn't one of your must sees?

Is.

It's disheartening watching David Lyons as the villain after his heroic turn in "The Cape". I know he's done plenty of other stuff before that, but "The Cape" is the first thing he's done where I became aware of him. I liked that show.

Hiro Protagonest

2013-05-23, 05:14 PM

Is.

Bleh. I wanted to like it. I really did. It's a similar premise to the Emberverse books, at least the original trilogy. But I went from "come on, just gotta keep watching" to "yeah, I don't care enough" to "this show sucks". I watched up to the episode with the train. Miles is the only sensible person. Maggie was decent, but they killed her off for shock value. Charlie is the most irritating character in the world, and her brother isn't much better. Nora is as bad about splitting white hats and black hats as the siblings, but is otherwise more pragmatic. Aaron is too busy wallowing in self-pity to do anything more than follow along. Jason is there for some stupid romantic conflict stuff. And Monroe is slipping, there's nothing gray about him being the bad guy.

I also don't get a proper sense of scale. We saw a map once outlining the new national borders. Monroe talking to a high-ranking officer of his about an actual war going on. And nothing else. The main characters have no clue about this stuff, or at least, they don't care. I want to see how the world at large looks, not follow some isolated villagers and hopeless rebels in their Quest to Kill the Bad GuyTM. Defiance also has the whole small scale thing, but it does it properly. You're following a guy who's trying to keep the peace in an independent city-state, not a Plucky Band of MisfitsTM on some grand quest.

/off-topic rant

navar100

2013-05-23, 09:27 PM

You need to watch more. Everyone knows what's going on. Atlanta was almost nuked. Georgia is at war with Monroe and losing despite early confidence and friends with England. There is a race between turning the lights back on and keep them off. In theory Ben Affleck rules California, seriously. We only know for certain the last name.

Hiro Protagonest

2013-05-23, 09:40 PM

Palanan

2013-05-31, 12:09 PM

Well, I finally watched the second episode online last night--the last I've seen of the six (or seven?) they've aired so far. Watching it out of sequence...didn't really matter that much.

This is officially my Brain-Dead-Watch-It-Because-It's-There show. --Ye GAWDS this is pathetic, horrible stuff. Every single character is a dimensionless archetype, with acting that barely rates the term. The plots are insipid and usually absurd, and for most episodes the last few minutes are absolutely painful to experience.

The roustabout-turned-lawkeeper, whose name I can't remember, doesn't even qualify as cardboard; he's more like wet newspaper that's long since dried in the sun. Absurdly idealistic mayor; completely unconvincing brothel-running sister; a scatter of other characters, mainly trite and forgettable. Ah yes, the wild-child alien girl with a thoroughly contrived background.

The only actor who actually knows what he's doing is Graham Greene, who deserves something far, far better than this; but as it is, he makes Rafe McCawley and his family the only really compelling characters in town. In fact, the only believable interactions between any of the characters are between Rafe and his children, especially his younger son, and I have a feeling that's owing to Graham Greene's influence on the younger actor.

And I have to confess that it's a nice touch, the subculture of alien youth who rebel against their parents by wearing human clothes and dyeing their hair; but it only stands out as a creative parenthesis because the rest of the show has absolutely nothing to say. The most intriguing aspect of this new Earth is the forced terraforming, which has reshaped everything and apparently wiped out nearly all native life--almost like the Genesis device--and yet, we hardly see any of it, apart from some extremely cheesy and unimaginative CG creatures.

The show also unintentionally reinforces the wisdom of the BSG approach to humans in unknown space: no aliens whatsoever, just humans and machines in an empty, indifferent universe. Defiance tries to go the opposite route, and just ends up demonstrating what Trek proved twenty years ago: that it's almost impossible to create believable aliens on a television budget, and what you end up with is usually ludicrous. Rather than developing one or two really detailed and extraordinary alien species, Defiance gives us a sad hodgepodge of third-rate makeup jobs.

What also frustrates me--and I might have missed some key information somewhere--is the lack of a coherent explanation for what's happened to the Earth in the last thirty years. BSG set it up perfectly in the first two minutes of the series: the Cylons fought a war of rebellion, withdrew, and have now returned with a vengeance.

Defiance has a messier backstory, which is fine, except there are a lot of elements that simply don't connect for me. Clearly one species or faction of aliens was organized enough to implement a terraforming program--apparently taking place in just a few years, rather than centuries as humans do it--and yet, by the time Defiance begins there's a junkyard of drifting spacecraft in low Earth orbit, falling frequently enough for scavengers to make a living off their contents.

How does this connect to the first images of the arrival, with spacecraft dramatically nosing through the clouds in the best invading-alien style? Unraveling the history of successive waves of alien colonization may be part of the series storyline--but if so, the execution is painfully clumsy and imprecise.

And that, to me, sums up the series so far: they have the merest seed of an interesting idea, but so poorly developed and realized it's almost embarrassing to watch. It may pick up during the second half of the season...but if so, they've got a long, steep climb ahead of them.

Whew. Long rant. That's been building for a while.

:smalltongue:

EDIT:

Originally Posted by Silverraptor
I don't know enough about these alien races. I don't know which ones are originally friendly to humans and which aren't. I don't know what happened in the invading war.

Okay, looks like I'm not the only one who's a little frustrated and bewildered at the incomplete backstory here. Like Silverraptor, I just don't care enough about any of them to really want to know.

.

JadedDM

2013-06-01, 08:28 PM

Yeah, I had to read the wikipedia article to understand most of the backstory. At first I assumed, after watching the pilot, that they would fill in those blanks later on. But so far, they really haven't.

Palanan

2013-06-01, 10:01 PM

Wait, Wiki has a backstory?!

*google*
*google*
*google*

--huh. Now it almost makes sense. Now all the random references are actually almost connected. I've been wondering for weeks who the "Votan" are and how they relate to the other races.

Why couldn't the producers have just...explained this? Briefly? It's science-free schlock, but at least there's something vaguely like a story there.

They need to watch the first three minutes of Serenity. That's how it's done.

t209

2013-06-01, 11:03 PM

MLai

2013-06-02, 02:24 AM

[DELETED]

Oops! Yeah I meant to post in the Worm thread. Sorry.

Palanan

2013-06-02, 11:21 AM

Originally Posted by t209
I take it as Laziness since they wanted to make it like Wakfu (Series/ MMORPG Connection), but it failed. They just need to write it on show instead of forcing us to read wiki on the story's origin.

No idea what Wakfu is myself, but I was thinking that the Defiance writers might have been assuming that their entire audience would be plugged into the online game, and somehow absorbing series backstory from there.

The concept of having to read a wiki to understand a series is a little foreign to me. Also no idea if it's now standard to assume that everyone is simultaneously running the game and watching the show. For myself, I like to watch a show and understand it as a self-contained experience. Color me old-fashioned.

Originally Posted by MLai
I'm up to "Insinuation 2.3". It's a great read. But Taylor is a moron and I honestly couldn't give a damn if something bad happens to her at the end of the novel. I want her to die right now.
I say this as a nerd in JHS and HS. One good thing about this is, I'll only feel angry reading this story, rather than upset or sad.

Edit: Ok, now I'm getting to 2.9, and the author is blatantly bonding me (the reader) to the Undersiders. Am I supposed to feel guilty about it later, rooting for the lawbreakers? Surprise, author: I was probably going to root for them whether you "tricked" me into it or not.

Edit 2: Man I wish this got made into the TV series instead of that Avengers spin-off.

Umm...did you mean to post this in the Worm thread? Seems to have a general Worm connection, at least.

JadedDM

2013-06-02, 09:25 PM

Yeah, I don't play the game at all (can't stand MMORPGs), so I'd be totally lost right now if I hadn't found the wikipedia article.

As for Wakfu, I've never heard of it, but it has a wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wakfu), too. Evidently it is similar to Defiance, in the way that it's an MMORPG that also has tie-ins with other media.

BRC

2013-06-03, 02:50 PM

I've been able to enjoy the series without playing the game or reading any wikipedia articles. They built a very complex (not necessarily good, just complex) universe. If they told you everything it would mean lots of awkward exposition, especially since all the characters should theoretically know these details.
It would be like two people saying
"Hey, I'm going to New York to see my grandmother"
"Oh, New York, you mean the large city on the east coast which serves as a major economic and cultural center for the united states"
"Yes, because my grandmother lives there!"
"And in our culture it is traditional to visit and respect one's relatives, especially elderly ones!"

The show leans heavily on Archetypes for the various characters, so I've had little trouble understanding them, and the World gets filled in as needed.

navar100

2013-06-03, 10:29 PM

I've caught up, having seen the episode I missed. While the stories aren't new at least these last two hadn't been that predictable. It was easy to figure out Sukar was trying to save Defiance but the journey was alright. The War Criminal plot was also done in Babylon 5 and the same results with Defiance adding a friendship twist.

It was nice we didn't have to wait until the finale for another vision. The lesbian angle felt rather fanboyish than sincere, but scenes for next week's episode at least hints of a repercussion so maybe a concrete story will develop after all.

Defiance hasn't lost me yet.

BRC

2013-06-04, 11:54 AM

A great episode in my opinion. The Razor-Rain setup was perfect for some pressure-cooker character development.

That said, it used my least favorite plot device ever: A Character doing good things with violence instead of trying to tell somebody what's going on.

Space Biker Dude clearly knew exactly what he was doing, so why didn't he just tell somebody? Ginger Klingon Girl (I'm bad with names) was following him out of sheer bewilderment anyway, and Sheriff Dude is fairly reasonable. If they told him "I'm hacking that ship's engines so it doesn't hit the town" he would probably say "Okay, throw the switch", and get into the whole Nanites vs Chosen-by-spacegod debate later.

It's really a shame. Space Biker Dude was a cool character. They Coma'd him so he could be brought back, but still.

That said, Ginger Klingon Girl is really the worst deputy ever. I think she's so far committed more on-screen crimes than any other character on the show.

Palanan

2013-06-13, 09:13 PM

Originally Posted by BRC
Space Biker Dude clearly knew exactly what he was doing.... Ginger Klingon Girl (I'm bad with names) was following him out of sheer bewilderment anyway, and Sheriff Dude is fairly reasonable.

I had to laugh at this. In a good, I-really-needed-a-laugh kind of way. "Ginger Klingon Girl" is hilarious. Much better than the actual names, which fall somewhere beneath random placenames from Kingdoms of Kalamar in terms of inventive plausibility.

I keep forgetting to watch this on Monday nights--and besides, I just powered through Season 2 of Falling Skies--so I've caught up with the last couple episodes online.

Complete agreement with BRC on the absurdity of the Space Biker Dude not taking thirty seconds to gasp out, "Ark fragment falling--need to kick in thrusters!" And on the general plot device itself, which was absurd. And the extremely clumsy attempts to present their half-baked, Elf-Klingon kitbash of Irathi "culture."

That said, for some reason the razor-rain episode seemed to be slightly less terrible than the previous half-dozen. This may have been partly due to the fact that I watched it after a very tense two-day trip out of town, which culminated in a six-hour traffic nightmare that left my brain in a state of quivering tapioca.

However, having skimmed through the wiki articles a week or two ago also made a tremendous difference in understanding the who-what-where riding beneath the surface of the episodes. If I hadn't, I doubt if the falling space wreck would've made the slightest sense to me.

(But if the nanites are in Space Biker Dude, and they want him to remotely activate the ark-fragment's thrusters...but they were in the fragment of the ark that fell as razor-rain, so they were in the ark originally, so why couldn't they have just--

--no, no, you lose karma when you try to apply logic to plot devices.)

As for the latest episode, being the mysterious-astronaut episode....

I can't be the only one who thought, "Hey, I saw this movie back in April!"

--Seriously, it's as if the writers went to see Oblivion and came back saying, "That was awesome! Now how can we fit this into a forty-minute episode with all our favorite characters?" Substitute the Votans for the Tet, get sloppy with the flashbacks and the silver blood, and if you squint a little the astronaut looks like Tom Cruise.

Okay, not really. But come on. Astronaut cloned by invading alien force with flashbacks of his wife. Astronaut discovers true identity...and in the movie, at least, then something interesting happens.

And yet, this episode was slightly less awful as well. My brain-tapioca levels were only moderate tonight, so could it be there's some minute increase in quality going on? I can't put my finger on it...except for Graham Greene, of course, who continues to be the only person on the show with acting talent. (Well, Stephanie Leonidas, but too much makeup. And speaking of whom....)

Originally Posted by BRC
That said, Ginger Klingon Girl is really the worst deputy ever. I think she's so far committed more on-screen crimes than any other character on the show.

Nepotism is bad. Even adopted alien nepotism.

.

Felhammer

2013-06-13, 09:38 PM

Been watching this show since day 1. I read the wiki before watching, so I don't know how much that affected my interpretation of the show.

There's a dirth of Sci-Fi on TV right now (at least for my tastes), so it's nice to see a new show pop up. I've enjoyed the show since episode 1 and continue to watching week in and week out. It's not the most ground breaking of shows but I don't think you need to be that ground breaking when Reality TV is dominating the airwaves. Good old fashioned story telling is what's needed and this show has it (even if it is a bit simplistic at times).

I've grown to really like the characters of Datak Tarr and Rafe McCawley, both seem to have the strongest characterization of the principle cast. Nolan is still a bit of a caricature of the N/G Lawman but he's acted well thus far. I love Stahma Tarr but I think the show's producers are getting a bit... HBO/Showtime-y with her. That scene in the tub last week was... Bordering on gratuitous.

I think the show has done a fair job of defining who the Castithans and the Irathients are and what they believe. To a lesser extent, they have done the same with the Indogene. However, all of the other Votan species remain, more or less, ill-defined in terms of the show. Liberata and Senoth appear in the background quite often but they aren't used for anything other than window dressing.

I know the show is locale-based but I wouldn't mind a trip to New York or Brazil to see how the Votanis Collective and the Earth Republic have organized themselves.

Palanan

2013-06-13, 10:17 PM

Originally Posted by Felhammer
I've grown to really like the characters of Datak Tarr and Rafe McCawley, both seem to have the strongest characterization of the principle cast. Nolan is still a bit of a caricature of the N/G Lawman....

I think your comments here are spot-on. Rafe and Datak were presented as fierce competitors and bitter personal enemies, and clearly more thought was put into their background and development than just about anyone else, including Generic Lawman Dude.

They're probably the two most interesting characters in the show. Rafe is a tough old coot who smacks sentimentality with his boot-heel, but he seems better able than anyone to appreciate the beauties of the under-earth. Datak is thoroughly dislikable, and paranoid about respect--and the reasons why are genuinely interesting.

Originally Posted by Felhammer
I love Stahma Tarr but I think the show's producers are getting a bit... HBO/Showtime-y with her. That scene in the tub last week was... Bordering on gratuitous.

Pretty much all the tub scenes were gratuitous. Suds, anyone?

:smallannoyed:

BRC

2013-06-13, 11:13 PM

I kept waiting for them to use the Astronaut as an excuse to infodump about the history, but no, no they did not. I don't know how I feel about this.

I saw somewhere somebody saying that Astronaut Dude was not charismatic enough, but I thought he was actually perfect for the role. He spent the entire episode looking overwhelmed, which is reasonable. He seemed exactly like the type of guy who would get massively hyped about post-mortem.

That said, I like how the whole "Doctor Lady is a War Criminal" arc is coinciding with the plague AKA the time when they most need Doctor Lady's help.

JadedDM

2013-06-14, 10:42 AM

I kept waiting for them to use the Astronaut as an excuse to infodump about the history, but no, no they did not. I don't know how I feel about this.

Hey, you're right. I didn't even think about that, but that would have been a perfect excuse to actually explain the setting without it seeming too weird.

Felhammer

2013-06-15, 04:55 PM

I think your comments here are spot-on. Rafe and Datak were presented as fierce competitors and bitter personal enemies, and clearly more thought was put into their background and development than just about anyone else, including Generic Lawman Dude.

They're probably the two most interesting characters in the show. Rafe is a tough old coot who smacks sentimentality with his boot-heel, but he seems better able than anyone to appreciate the beauties of the under-earth. Datak is thoroughly dislikable, and paranoid about respect--and the reasons why are genuinely interesting.

The Lawman has had a lot of history explained, far more than most other characters yet I don't feel that connected to him the way I do to Datak and Rafe. Maybe its because he hasn't shown much of his personality than your bog standard N/G Sheriff that wanders into town.

I am kind of upset that they killed off the Biker Leader Guy. He actually seemed like a great tool to help develop Irathient culture and further Lawman's Daughter's mystical powers. His death was, more or less, pointless. I think it would have been more interesting to see Irisa struggle between her adopted culture (via her "father") and her true culture (via the man she loves). Instead, they went for the generic "Daddy killed my friend, so now I have an excuse to be moody and mean."

Pretty much all the tub scenes were gratuitous. Suds, anyone?

:smallannoyed:

Last week was super gratuitous though.

But I agree, why don't they have bubbles? Maybe that would be too erotic? They could put food coloring into the water... But that might stain the actor's skin. They could make it steamy but then you'd have to ask where they are getting all that heat from. They could have Stahma wear more clothing but that would defeat the purpose of the scene.

So... Yeah... Bubbles are probably the best bet. Sure it's erotic but at least it isn't gratuitous.

I kept waiting for them to use the Astronaut as an excuse to infodump about the history, but no, no they did not. I don't know how I feel about this.

They did explain quite a bit. We now know why there are no planes (radiation). We know the Votans were here before they made first contact. We know they were willing to kill humans and replace them with spies. We now know that much of the southern USA is still around.

What I am most interested in finding out is how the other continents have fared. We know the Americas are being split into two camps - the Earth Republic and the Votanis Collective, with lots of small, independent settlements lying between them. But what about Asia, Africa, Europe, Australia, etc.?

Palanan

2013-06-15, 06:56 PM

Originally Posted by BRC
I kept waiting for them to use the Astronaut as an excuse to infodump about the history, but no, no they did not.

Originally Posted by JadedDM
I didn't even think about that, but that would have been a perfect excuse to actually explain the setting without it seeming too weird.

I see this as another lost opportunity, one of too many to count.

One of my great frustrations with the show thus far is that it's lazy. They slapped together a grab bag of tropes and archetypes, hardly any of which are really interesting or inventive, and sent them out into the brave new world with tacky gear and plots so poor they're painful.

Apart from being a complete Oblivion knockoff, the Astronaut Episode (let's call it "Oblivious") only really accomplished one thing, which is to Reveal Dark Secrets about the Doctor, the Indogenes and possibly the Votans as a whole. (The Doctor described it as a "rogue program," and it's not clear if this involved the entire Votan fleet or just an Indogene cabal.)

The Astronaut himself...did what, exactly? Discovered he was a copy of his original self...and then sort of, well, walked away. It's a scenario that's come up countless times in science fiction, and yet rather than try to do something new with it--or even just copy one of the better approaches--they ended up doing nothing at all.

Originally Posted by Felhammer
I am kind of upset that they killed off the Biker Leader Guy. He actually seemed like a great tool to help develop Irathient culture and further Lawman's Daughter's mystical powers. His death was, more or less, pointless.

Agreed on all counts, and I would add that he was actually just beginning to become an interesting character in his own right. But I have a feeling those nanites aren't done with him yet.

Originally Posted by Felhammer
We now know why there are no planes (radiation).

I'd been wondering about planes from the beginning, and the radiation explanation doesn't really make sense. Atmospheres are so well-mixed that if there were a zone of deadly radiation only four hundred feet above the ground, everyone would be dead from lung cancer within a year.

And there's another little catch, which I don't think the show's writers stopped to think about. According to official sources (http://www.gatewayarch.com), the St. Louis Gateway Arch reaches a height of 630 feet. This means that Alak Tarr has been spinning tunes from above the danger zone pretty much every day now. Sure, you can say that his species is radiation-tolerant or whatever...but his young human wife has been up there too, without ill effects. Not to mention Lawman Dude had his little shootout with Biker Guy up there, while Ginger Klingon Girl looked on in horror. No one had the slightest trace of radiation sickness.

--Sure, Mayor Babe was half-drunk when she mentioned the height of the radiation zone, and maybe she meant to say "four thousand feet" or something. But one way or the other, it's sloppy. They just...didn't think too hard when they put this show together.

Originally Posted by Felhammer
What I am most interested in finding out is how the other continents have fared. We know the Americas are being split into two camps - the Earth Republic and the Votanis Collective, with lots of small, independent settlements lying between them. But what about Asia, Africa, Europe, Australia, etc.?

You've actually summarized the American situation far better than the show's managed so far. :smallamused:

I think they mentioned in the pilot episode that Antarctica, everyone's favorite getaway paradise, might not even be real--just a fantasy for desperate dreamers. With no air travel, and apparently no more communications satellites, probably the other continents are just as isolated and difficult to reach as in the days of the pharoahs.

What I've been wondering--which touches on both this point and air travel in general--is why the Votans are apparently no longer able to reach low-Earth orbit. They must have had some sort of landing craft, if they'd managed to establish a foothold on the surface before the wars began; and if the Votans were migrating in search of a new homeworld, they probably built their landers to be rugged, self-sufficient explorers. They should be able to handle a little radiation with no trouble at all--and yet, no sign of them.

My only guess would be that they were all destroyed in the wars--possibly pressed into service as bombers, just like the shuttle in Avatar, and then lost in action one by one. It would actually make a great plot for an episode: discovering an abandoned Votan lander, which the Mayor would want for the Defiance air force, Lawman would want for long-range scavenging, and the Doctor would want to return to the ark fleet for potentially sinister reasons.

Ah well. I can dream.

.

Felhammer

2013-06-15, 11:42 PM

The Astronaut himself...did what, exactly? Discovered he was a copy of his original self...and then sort of, well, walked away. It's a scenario that's come up countless times in science fiction, and yet rather than try to do something new with it--or even just copy one of the better approaches--they ended up doing nothing at all.

He couldn't stay in Defiance as the evil Earth Rep would kidnap him in the middle of the night, while anyone who has any fealty to the Votanis Collective would kill him (and ditch the corpse).

He could have killed himself, which is what many shows do with clone-centric episodes. I thought letting him escape and find his 60 year old wife was nice. It also leaves it open for Astronaut Man to come back in the future.

Agreed on all counts, and I would add that he was actually just beginning to become an interesting character in his own right. But I have a feeling those nanites aren't done with him yet.

It's weird. This show does a really terrible job of making the main characters feel like anything but caricatures while the secondary cast has great characterization. I really don't get it.

I'd been wondering about planes from the beginning, and the radiation explanation doesn't really make sense. Atmospheres are so well-mixed that if there were a zone of deadly radiation only four hundred feet above the ground, everyone would be dead from lung cancer within a year.

And there's another little catch, which I don't think the show's writers stopped to think about. According to official sources (http://www.gatewayarch.com), the St. Louis Gateway Arch reaches a height of 630 feet. This means that Alak Tarr has been spinning tunes from above the danger zone pretty much every day now. Sure, you can say that his species is radiation-tolerant or whatever...but his young human wife has been up there too, without ill effects. Not to mention Lawman Dude had his little shootout with Biker Guy up there, while Ginger Klingon Girl looked on in horror. No one had the slightest trace of radiation sickness.

Maybe the unique shape of the Arc reflects alien radiation? Maybe St. Luis has sunk down into the Earth due to the alien terraforming? I'm sure we'll get some retcon answer for this.

Additionally, it seems to me coastal areas could avoid that entire altitude restriction by building crafts that fly 300 feet off the ground and make their journey over the ocean (where there are no surprise mountains and such).

I think they mentioned in the pilot episode that Antarctica, everyone's favorite getaway paradise, might not even be real--just a fantasy for desperate dreamers. With no air travel, and apparently no more communications satellites, probably the other continents are just as isolated and difficult to reach as in the days of the pharoahs.

I wonder how the writers are explaining the lack of boats. I mean sure a boat is going to take weeks to cross the Atlantic but it can still be done on a regular basis. My only guess is that there are horrifying, monstrous sea critters now. Nothing deters sailors more than the prospect of getting eaten by gargantuan sharks.

What about old fashioned wired telecommunications? Sink those lines under the sea and have instant communication with Europe and Asia. Hmm... Who knows, maybe the Earth Rep has those (not like we'll ever get to see New York).

What I've been wondering--which touches on both this point and air travel in general--is why the Votans are apparently no longer able to reach low-Earth orbit. They must have had some sort of landing craft, if they'd managed to establish a foothold on the surface before the wars began; and if the Votans were migrating in search of a new homeworld, they probably built their landers to be rugged, self-sufficient explorers. They should be able to handle a little radiation with no trouble at all--and yet, no sign of them.

My only guess would be that they were all destroyed in the wars--possibly pressed into service as bombers, just like the shuttle in Avatar, and then lost in action one by one. It would actually make a great plot for an episode: discovering an abandoned Votan lander, which the Mayor would want for the Defiance air force, Lawman would want for long-range scavenging, and the Doctor would want to return to the ark fleet for potentially sinister reasons.

Ah well. I can dream.

My bet is that 90% of them were destroyed during the war. The brave new world in which everyone finds themselves now is not technologically advanced enough to produce or even repair the advanced vehicles. Those that remain are probably in use by Politicians and the Votanis military.

I believe they talked about how there's too much debris in space since most of the Votan Ships were destroyed. So even if you could get to Orbit, you run the risk of being pelted by debris, both big and small. That would help explain why there aren't any satellites (which would make trans-continental communication simple).

I like your plot idea. Don't forget, I'm sure the Earth Rep would love to get their hands on a working lander, not only to deprive their enemy but to learn more about Votan technology.

Palanan

2013-06-16, 10:52 PM

Originally Posted by Felhammer
I mean sure a boat is going to take weeks to cross the Atlantic but it can still be done on a regular basis. My only guess is that there are horrifying, monstrous sea critters now.

That was my first thought, too. Given the sort of creatures nesting under Defiance, I'd say the oceans of the world are no safe place. I'd hate to think what a Votan-hybrid sperm whale would look like.

:smalleek:

Originally Posted by Felhammer
I believe they talked about how there's too much debris in space since most of the Votan Ships were destroyed. So even if you could get to Orbit, you run the risk of being pelted by debris, both big and small. That would help explain why there aren't any satellites....

That would make sense for satellites in low-Earth orbit, which is where the Ark wreckage seems to be concentrated, but there are also communications satellites much farther out, in geosynchronous orbit, roughly 22,000 miles above the surface. That's a lot higher than LEO, and probably a lot farther out than the cloud of Ark debris could reach.

--I know, I know, it was a lot of Ark debris. Or those pesky Indogenes took them out.

One option for shorter-range communication might be a series of high-altitude balloons; but given new-normal hazards like razor-rain, that might not be a long-term solution.

Originally Posted by Felhammer
It's weird. This show does a really terrible job of making the main characters feel like anything but caricatures while the secondary cast has great characterization. I really don't get it.

Again, a very nice summary of the situation. The blonde NeedWant girl with her pixie outfit (evidently her working togs) has more of a personality than the brothel's owner, who needs to take Companion Life 101 from Inara. The actress who plays the madam is terrible, and the character lacks the hard-edged pragmatism and basic professionalism you would expect from someone in her position.

It just all feels...tired. As if they spent their brief surge of creative energy on backstories for the aliens, and didn't really think too hard about the main characters themselves. Nolan could just as easily be the cop-guy from Terranova--a walking archetype, with zero personality and a generic tough-guy attitude. All the other cliches just sort of patter down around him like a bag of dropped marbles.

Calemyr

2013-06-17, 12:10 PM

It just all feels...tired. As if they spent their brief surge of creative energy on backstories for the aliens, and didn't really think too hard about the main characters themselves. Nolan could just as easily be the cop-guy from Terranova--a walking archetype, with zero personality and a generic tough-guy attitude. All the other cliches just sort of patter down around him like a bag of dropped marbles.

Made infinitely more irritating because they won't show any of the alien back-stories. The Liberati (troll people) with a speaking part are a little snarky, but what is there to suggest this is their cultural nature? Or that it is their cultural nature because they feel they deserve their lowly status because they squandered and lost their power and influence? Or that the Sensoth (sasquatch people) have a 200-year life span and that as a result they tend to be more patient and thoughtful than any other race - including the Indogenes? I mean, egad, they've got some good ideas there, but... screw it... constant love scenes and bathing scenes can cover a multitude of narrative sins. Like having no narrative.

Felhammer

2013-06-17, 11:11 PM

And the plot thickens.

I'll admit that I did not see Nicky working with Doc Yewll, that goes completely against the narrative of Human v. Votan. I quite like it, most especially considering all of the insidious stuff Doc Yewll had been up to prior to the start of the show.

I am loving how deviously manipulative Stahma is turning out to be. I think we all saw the fact that Datak was going to be the Mayor's opponent in the election. I laughed when I saw Alak unplug the Mayor's mic. That whole family is so shrewd.

What is with this show and killing off the side characters that have good character growth? I was actually beginning to like the Ambassador! I had hopes that he would become a full time cast member! And more Iraths die, just when they were starting to become important to Irisa. I'm beginning to think that is going to be a theme for her character - everyone of her people that she befriends winds up dead.

Definitely one of the stronger episodes of the series because, unlike most, we actually learn interesting bits of information and we get a lot of plot progression.

Avilan the Grey

2013-06-18, 01:54 AM

Isn't this the show where the MMO is canon, and runs parallell with the show? and they said they would alter the show if something big happened in the MMO?

Felhammer

2013-06-18, 02:49 AM

Isn't this the show where the MMO is canon, and runs parallell with the show? and they said they would alter the show if something big happened in the MMO?

Indeed.

For the last few weeks they've been running adverts for the game showcasing some kind of plague that's running through San Francisco. Guess what happened today? The Plague came to Defiance!

Hiro Protagonest

2013-06-18, 03:59 PM

I totally spaced out yesterday and forgot it was Monday, and therefore Defiance and Warehouse 13 were on.

I did manage to catch the second half of Warehouse 13.

Palanan

2013-06-18, 10:05 PM

Just got around to watching the plague episode online.

--Huh. It was almost, almost not terrible. There were moments of genuine moral crisis. There were parallels to (okay, cheap knock-offs of) painful historical situations. They even managed to make the E-Rep guy slightly sympathetic.

...but, but, but. It was still within the same hokey matrix, the same limitations of actors, concepts, environs. And the same Mad-Max-meets-Knight-Rider set of lawkeeper wheels. (What does he do for new tires?)

What strikes me is how okay everyone was at the very end of the show. Despite most of her closest people being killed, Irisa is back to hugging Nolan and happily tagging along. Despite losing his girlfriend, Alak is back to puttering at the radio station and pulling pranks on the mayor. Despite losing Someone Important To Her, said mayor is back to politicking and speechifying.

Apart from a brief nighttime scene involving stretchers, a firepit and a lukewarm attempt at portraying anguish, there was no real effect. No mention of the final death toll; no mention of what the Irathi will be doing now that they've been caged and humiliated and their trust of humans thoroughly, perhaps irrevocably violated. No mention of the E-Rep blockade being lifted. No mention of Rafe's reaction to losing his only daughter.

What really bothered me was the music at the end, which to me destroyed whatever wisp of solemnity they might have managed to convey. It was too modern, too stylish, and far too distracting to have any resonance with the emotional arc the episode was trying to create. On episodes which end on happier notes, the music which Alak chooses tends to reinforce the mood, but in this case it broke apart just when everything should have come together.

So: it started out surprisingly strong, went on a shallow glidepath down to mediocrity, and then--like most episodes before it--crumbled into a ridiculous mess.

Originally Posted by Felhammer
What is with this show and killing off the side characters that have good character growth? I was actually beginning to like the Ambassador! ...And more Iraths die, just when they were starting to become important to Irisa.

The E-Rep guy was definitely growing on me. And in fact, so was Irisa's "tribe," or at least the small group who seemed to be part of Sukor's gang.

As for the Indogene doctor's former collusion with Nicolette...well, not that surprising. The doctor is pretty much implicated as a war criminal anyway. (Why can't she get taken out? I can't stand the character, for too many reasons to list.)

Originally Posted by Felhammer
I am loving how deviously manipulative Stahma is turning out to be.

Apart from Rafe, she's probably the most interesting character in the series. Far more intelligent and far-seeing than her husband, a mastermind in her own right. Datak despises humans, and holds his nose to work with them, but he makes no real attempt to comprehend them.

Stahma, on the other hand, understands just how and where humans are vulnerable, and how best to manipulate them. She acts as though she's doing the best she can, given the constraints of her culture--but I think she relishes the subtle maneuverings far more than if she were on center stage herself.

Originally Posted by Avilan the Grey
Isn't this the show where the MMO is canon, and runs parallell with the show? and they said they would alter the show if something big happened in the MMO?

Really? Haven't looked at the game, had no idea.

...That's actually kind of cool, at least the basic concept. Has that ever been done before?

BRC

2013-06-18, 10:25 PM

This was actually a great episode, by which I mean it had a lot of Daytak Tar.
For all that Sheriff Dude ,Ginger Klingon, and to a lesser extent Mayor Girl come across as Archetypes, Daytak kind of defies Archetype.

He's a mob boss, but he's portrayed as more of a community leader than a scheming criminal. His defining features are Ambition, Pride, and Ruthlessness a cocktail that usually leads to a villain. However, the show doesn't treat him as a villain, just another character in a frequently conflicted cast.

Technically Sheriff Dude and Mayor Lady are the Heroes of the show technically, and Old Mayor Lady is the Villain, but they are given by far the least interesting plotlines. The show lets them put out various fires affecting the town while Daytak, Stahma and Rafe get the interesting character driven stuff.
And then there's Stahma, another character who defies classification. She takes a very passive role as a devoted wife and mother, but is in many ways one of the most active characters in the show. She's got this soft "I only want what's best for my son/husband" way of speaking, but she's clearly this very driven, highly intelligent woman.

The Tarrs, plus Rafe, bounce between being Sheriff Dude and Mayor Lady's Allies and Antagonists between episodes, and it's all perfectly in-character for them. It's like they created Sheriff Dude and Old Mayor Lady to fulfill the obligatory roles of Hero and Villain so they could create this second tier cast of far more interesting characters.

Say what you will about the show, there is some

Palanan

2013-06-18, 10:45 PM

Originally Posted by BRC
It's like they created Sheriff Dude and Old Mayor Lady to fulfill the obligatory roles of Hero and Villain so they could create this second tier cast of far more interesting characters.

It really seems to work out that way, doesn't it? It's as if they sketched the simplest of outlines for the supposed protagonists, and then built a community around them with some honestly intriguing, much-better-realized individuals.

We've heard far more about Rafe's family history, and Datak's, than we have about Nolan's own past; and the fact is, I'm much more interested in Rafe's family and Datak's family than I am in anything Nolan has to say. Despite the fact that given his wandering background, he supposedly has more interesting stories to tell.

Thing is, he never tells them. He rarely even alludes to them. It's as if the writers just can't be bothered to even try to make us care about him.

Originally Posted by BRC
And then there's Stahma, another character who defies classification. She takes a very passive role as a devoted wife and mother, but is in many ways one of the most active characters in the show. She's got this soft "I only want what's best for my son/husband" way of speaking, but she's clearly this very driven, highly intelligent woman.

I think her passive role is ostensibly due to the subservient nature of women in her society--but in fact she wears that like a comfortable mantle, allowing her the freedom to operate at a certain remove. She's superlative at manipulating her husband, and she uses that to further both his aims and her own. Datak's absurdly inflated pride won't allow him to admit it, but he really relies on her to steer him in the most favorable direction.

And I agree, to judge by what we've seen so far, she's one of the most involved and effective personalities in the community. In just a handful of episodes she's gotten her husband to within a hair's-breadth of becoming mayor. From now on, the current officeholder needs to be very, very careful. There are no airlocks in Defiance--at least none that open onto vacuum--but I'm sure Stahma could think of something equally effective.

Corvus

2013-06-19, 05:52 AM

No mention of Rafe's reaction to losing his only daughter.

I didn't get the impression she died - i went back and watched the end and there is no mention of her dying. The last we see was she was very sick but the cure was retrieved not long after.

Palanan

2013-06-19, 10:00 AM

Well...hmmm.

They didn't come out and say it, but I had the strong impression she did, since they showed Rafe consoling Alak in the hospital tent. They didn't show her in the final scenes, and especially not when Quentin left home. The last time we saw her she looked pretty far gone.

That said, my impression must have been mistaken, since her page on IMDB (http://www.imdb.com/character/ch0379779/filmoseries#tt2189221) lists appearances in ten episodes, three of which haven't aired yet. That does suggest she made it through--which would explain why Alak was looking so chipper in the penultimate scene. Maybe not all the Tarrs are as bad as I thought.

:smallredface:

Calemyr

2013-06-19, 10:13 AM

Maybe not all the Tarrs are as bad as I thought.

:smallredface:

I thought that was kind of the point. The parents come from the "old country", as it were, and the cultural standards from there are very deeply engrained in their hearts and minds. Nothing the Tarrs do is all that out of line by their own standards, after all.

The boy, however, was born on Earth. The only world he's ever known, the only culture he's ever actually seen is this multicultural mishmash. He's the classic American-born child of immigrants, caught between the world he knows and the world he's never seen but his parents insist he revere.

navar100

2013-06-19, 12:19 PM

According to scenes for next week's show Datak angrily says the wedding is off, so Rafe's daughter made it.

Felhammer

2013-06-25, 03:57 PM

Anyone watch last night's episode?

Spoilers:

WOW! This show's meta plot is definitely jumping by leaps and bounds. Now we know why that Astronaut was in the show - because the old mayor is a freaking alien! The way the Doctor just casually kills the old mayor is... Frightening. Completely justified but still kinda spooky. I wonder what she will do with the macguffin...

I like the way Alak stood up to his father, it really exemplifies the cultural divide between the generations. Alak risked getting his throat cut by his father just so he could marry the woman he loves. As an aside, I find it quite funny that Stahma went to all the trouble of making a veil and the girl didn't wear it properly! :smalleek:

navar100

2013-06-25, 05:36 PM

I have to admit, for the first time, Defiance surprised me. I knew there was no way Datak was the murderer. He was too obvious. It could have easily been the Prostitute or the Mayor then tossed aside and forgiven as self-defense to continue the soap opera plots the show does. However, the fact that they gave the flashback motive so early in the show was a clue it was neither of them.

That the murderer was the former Mayor was a little surprising but not out of left field. That the Doctor knew and was there was a surprise. The motive for the murder, however, that was the shocker. I was totally not expecting that. Then Defiance surprised me again. The Doctor kills her! I was expecting the former Mayor's plot line to continue while we're in on the joke of her true nature getting a new perspective. If she is killed it would have been in the season finale after her secret got out. That's how plots like hers always work out, but nope, she's killed off now. The McGuffin itself is still around, but the former Mayor's role in its plot is done.

Watching the episode I felt something I never felt before about the show. Interest. I actually cared about what was happening. I wanted to know what was going on. This is all because I was surprised. Even the wedding arc was made interesting as a result. It followed trope writing like everything else in Defiance, but Stahma making the wedding veil was also a little surprise. Maybe she's still being conniving, but for this episode there was genuine appearance of just being a loving mother. She really approves of the wedding for her son's sake.

Palanan

2013-06-26, 09:02 PM

Just watched it online last night.

So, another not-terrible episode. Looks like several of us actually partway liked it. :smalltongue:

In fact, I may have enjoyed this one more than any of the others so far, simply because it stayed very close to home and didn't try too hard. Unlike nearly every other episode, this one didn't try to impress us with how strange, alien, dangerous and hokey-cool this new Earth can be; it just told a couple of personal stories. Even if it wasn't in the slightest ambitious, at least it didn't overextend and disappoint.

But it does make me wonder exactly what kind of show they're trying to be. The backstory--the famously wiki'd, inscrutably referenced, never-actually-presented backstory--is full of grand concepts and alien metaplots, which only occasionally dribble down into the episodes themselves. Sadly, the episodes never really seem equipped to deal with the fullness of the world they're set in, and I have this craving to get out and explore. More than anything, this show needs a road trip.

Instead, we're limited to one small town, and for this latest episode we had a couple of small-town storylines. Joe Unsolved Case, which reveals some contrived backstory among several major characters; and for me the more interesting one, As the Castithan Turns, or possibly Dataks of Our Lives, in which we really start to see glimmers of depth and complexity in some of these secondary characters. Rafe in particular seems far better able to relate to Alak than Datak himself--not surprising on Datak's part, but an interesting modulation for Rafe. He needs a son, and Alak needs a father who can actually live in this world rather than the last.

Meanwhile, Nolan was relegated to a mild supporting role as walking cliche and plot device--or even subplot device, depending on how you look at it. For my part, I like him there. This way, he can grin stupidly and strut around, embody all the TV-cop tropes, and otherwise not interfere with the more interesting people. Apart from occasionally arresting them in a contrived, lamely back-justified fashion.

Also, the absolute best line of the episode:

Datak: I believe in love.

I howled at that, and this episode had some other great one-liners sprinkled throughout. (As well as some rather questionable dialogue at Alak's bachelor party....) I also really liked the hints of Casti culture at the beginning and the end--Alak's mock-duels with his friends (which had just an edge of earlier savagery) and the interesting forest theme for the wedding scene itself. There's a sense that these rites and rituals have changed somewhere along the way from the Casti homeworld, but you're never quite sure how. If it was intentional, it was nicely done.

There's thought here; it's just buried beneath generally bad acting, tacky concepts and the aforementioned trope-writing. I wasn't especially surprised that Doc Unpronounceable was in cahoots with Mayor Nicky, but I was a little startled that they killed her off so soon. As Navar mentions, her story arc seems cut strangely short, as if they wanted to rush her out for some reason. Maybe to set up the Doc as the real villain for the season finale?

Also, two nitpicks from this episode:

First, when Datak storms home and announces the wedding is off, he angrily whips out his hailer and says he's calling the priest, apparently to let the fellow know that he won't be needed. --But if a priest is required for a Casti wedding, why was Mayor Babe the one officiating at the end?

And second, if Nicky is really an Indogene, why did she bleed red when she cut herself a couple of episodes ago? (The astronaut-clone bled silver.)

Originally Posted by navar100
...Stahma making the wedding veil was also a little surprise. Maybe she's still being conniving, but for this episode there was genuine appearance of just being a loving mother.

The more you like Stahma, the more you need to watch out.

:smallamused:

Kitten Champion

2013-06-27, 03:13 PM

I was iffy about this show at first. The video-game aspects were really to its detriment and the setting required me to wiki it to not feel so confused. It's come into focus since then, and they've done a far better job with the characters. It's a show which has room to go places, now that they've gotten over their paint-by-numbers approach.

I think the choice of exposing and eliminating the old mayor is going to lead to an interesting drama with the election. While Amanda Rosewater has been relying on the support of her now-stigmatized predecessor and being the moderate human voice that will keep things in line, we've also seen how Datak Tar has been manipulating his image to be this strong heroic leader and appear more congenial to the other races. His apparent support of own son marrying a human while starting as a power-grab can be used to cement the image of him being supportive of Defiance's pluralist ideology. All the events throughout the season have been leading, subtly or brazenly, to a genuine power-struggle. I'm be curious how they'll handle it.

Felhammer

2013-07-01, 10:31 PM

Fascinating episode (err, well fascinating for Defiance).

So Irisa might actually die? That would be crazy! Maybe the Lawman is going to get kicked off the show? No sense leaving his daughter alive if that is the case.

Alak is definitely stuck between a rock and a hard place. He has two father figures, both of whom are yanking him in opposite directions culturally. It'll be interesting to see if he stands up for his adopted or biological culture.

I find it funny how the General from a few episodes ago was portrayed as the level headed one, allowing the Lawman to go get the cure, yet in this episode he's feeding Datak all the dirt he can muster. The ERep truly is duplicitous.

navar100

2013-07-02, 11:38 AM

I knew when Stahma told the Prostitute Datak was planning on killing the Mayor it was all a set-up. We're not shown if Datak was in on it, including the lesbian affair after the fact, but given how it's played out we can guess he is even if Stahma came up with the idea. I'm actually pleased the lesbian affair was Stahma's scheming plot device. It means the fanboyishness was a ratings attempt side-effect and not the whole reason for existing. Defiance's reputation with me caused the cynicism, but I am pleased it proved itself legit. I'm looking forward to the finale. Defiance has left the borderline and is now fully in the I like it will watch next season box. It's still close to the border but is in the box.

Palanan

2013-07-02, 10:50 PM

Just watched it online.

Um...what? It--they--bu--what--?

...brain...hurts....

I enjoyed the first half, more than any other episode to date. Stahma was clearly playing Kenya from the get-go in this one, and evidently all along. She says she and Datak are a team; she's the strategist and manipulator, guiding Datak's barely-concealed brutality. If nothing else, this episode highlights just how smoothly and deviously these two can operate.

What's especially interesting is that Datak and Stahma have their human targets pegged to the nth degree--Datak knows exactly how to twist the mayor where he wants her, and Stahma plays Kenya with deft perfection. And yet the humans allow themselves to be suckered, maneuvered and completely outflanked. The Castithans have a finely functional understanding of human psychology; but the humans consistently misunderstand the Castithans, expecting them to behave like humans instead of aliens.

It's nicely done, if that's in fact what's going on, but you have to wonder how these people can be caught so constantly flat-footed by species--and often by individuals--they've lived alongside for years on end. "Cunning as a Castithan" is a phrase that should be an aphorism all across the new Earth; people shouldn't be wary around Castithans, they should be compulsively paranoid. That should've been made plain through daily life for years on end.

And yet, two of the people in Defiance who should most know better--the supposedly politically adroit mayor, and the supposedly knowing and worldly madam--are each played like a lute, or maybe a kazoo. It really beggars belief that they could be so naive, having grown up in the brave new Earth with not only Castithans, but four or five other species who can probably tell them countless stories of just how devious, deceptive and duplicitous the pale guys can be.

That said, this latest installment of "Dataks of Our Lives" was great fun to watch, not least for all the small details that this show seems to do rather well with. "Hey, little man," was absolutely hilarious and completely unexpected--and also helped set a mood of false levity for Alak, which Datak instantly crushed. I enjoyed the scene of Alak with his (soon-to-be-doomed) friend, especially their talking in English with the exception of culture-specific words which couldn't really be translated--as well as "scary bad ---," which was apparently a back-formation from English using Castithan elements.

So all that was great. Politics, duplicity, betrayal, Castithan family values: tons of fun.

--And then, gawd, the whole "Chosen One" thing comes back, and the &%#$@!! Indogene doctor has to be #@$%&!! stupid and start experimenting with the #&$%@!! destructive unknown alien artifact, which she herself described as "genocidal." So hitting it with alien gamma rays or whatever is suddenly supposed to be a good thing?

And after that...confusion reigned, dream sequences, sappy music, the truly annoying disappearing-child-in-a-vision thing, and they just lost me. Alien artifacts implanted in people, running through the curiously lit woods, yadda yadda.

I liked the last episode because it stayed simple and close to home. This one started out following the same approach--and then veered back into alien-metaplot territory, in a way that left me confused, annoyed and not really caring at all.

Or maybe I'm just tired and wanted more Castithan shenanigans. They're far more interesting than the humans at this point.

Kitten Champion

2013-07-03, 12:40 AM

The McGuffin stuff could seriously have been less McGuffin-y.

I agree, it's confusing for the sake of confusion. There's only so long you can hold that back before it just feels like they're being annoyingly obtuse.

Felhammer

2013-07-08, 08:05 PM

Watching the season finale now.

Let's just start the episode off with the Tars having carnal knowledge of one another... :smalleek:

Creed

2013-07-08, 08:10 PM

Felhammer

2013-07-08, 08:21 PM

Watching the finale live as I type... and this EREP guy basically just explained everything.

Well, talk about exposition. Thanks for waiting until the last episode to tell us about the... Death Star?:smallconfused::smalltongue:

At this point, they kind of have to just shove it out there. Enough mystery, time to decide the fate of the world.

Felhammer

2013-07-08, 08:31 PM

Stahma... Wow... :smalleek:

Creed

2013-07-08, 08:49 PM

I just realized this, but Defiance is basically "Science Fiction TvTropes: The Show".

Felhammer

2013-07-08, 09:01 PM

Talk about gigantic status quo changes!

The Prostitute is dead, Datak and Stahma are villains, Irisah is embracing her destiny and the ERep has taken over!

This show is rife with tropes but it's rare to see a show that embraces so many, so often. It's exciting in a weird way.

navar100

2013-07-08, 10:43 PM

Felhammer

2013-07-09, 12:26 AM

Nothing new in the finale, but I was engaged to the story. For a brief moment I did consider Nolan would stay dead. Earth Final Conflict killed off its hero at the end of season 1, so it was possible, but I was more expecting his daughter to go all magic on him to cure him. She finally did, but not so direct.

Don't forget about Babylon 5! Often a second season replacement for the main character has more to do with bad chemistry, a bad actor or set politics than anything else. I haven't heard of any such complaints or issues on the set of Defiance, so I think Nolan is safe (for now).

So it turned out Datak was not in on the lesbian affair plot but just enjoyed the political spoils. Interesting. I'm not quite convinced the Prostitute is dead. It's still possible Stahma just knocked her out and sent her on a transport away, but I'll allow the possibility she is killed off for real.

Half of me was shocked that Datak didn't know about the affair but the other half wasn't. The writers played it deftly enough to leave it open for either possibility to hold true.

I'm sure the survival of the Prostitute will rely heavily on whether the writers/producers want that actress back or not. Personally, I always go with the mantra of no body, no death. Leave the murder with just enough plausibility so that the actress can come back if the character is needed for the story at some future date.

The daughter did cure her Father but had to make a deal with teh devil. There will obviously be major repercussions for this, both for her personally and psychologically. It'll be interesting to see the Devil interact with the Daughter more in season 2.

The question now is if next season Earth Rep will be run out of Defiance in the season premier or if the whole season will be about resistance to their rule. Either way is trope, but I'm expecting the daughter will use her magic to get rid of them in the first seasons then some how convenient circumstance will take away the magic/she turns it off. It will be a long wait until June 2014. That's risky. People might lose interest. They'll have to do a heck of a lot of publicity to announce its return.

I'm hoping for a Season of Resistance. Break down the social structures of the town, force everyone to make new alliances and new enemies, then in the finale, have the Daughter magic up a win button to expel the ERep, which will set the third season up to be a very interesting in terms of the characters dealing with the fallout.

Showtime and HBO seems to manage short running shows very well. SyFy just has to copy their methods - publicize on the internet, put season one episodes up On Demand and run a few marathons in the weeks leading up to the premier. :smallsmile:

navar100

2013-07-09, 11:37 AM

Michael O'Hare left Babylon 5 due to health reasons, not because of any personnel issues. That wasn't publicly known at the time.

Calemyr

2013-07-09, 01:07 PM

Don't forget about Babylon 5! Often a second season replacement for the main character has more to do with bad chemistry, a bad actor or set politics than anything else. I haven't heard of any such complaints or issues on the set of Defiance, so I think Nolan is safe (for now).

For him to be safe, he'd have to have some chemistry. As in, at all. He's little more than a well-meaning thug who has a similar "doing the right thing" tally as Firefly's Jayne. Seriously, he was never trained as a lawman, he doesn't have a lawful disposition, and he does the wrong thing at every turn. Datak's right on one point: what the hell was Amanda thinking? "I need muscle and this guy fits the bill?"

Felhammer

2013-07-09, 05:06 PM

Michael O'Hare left Babylon 5 due to health reasons, not because of any personnel issues. That wasn't publicly known at the time.

Huh, I always heard it was an amicable split (i.e. we fired him but not in a way that looks bad publicly). From what I've read his illness was not publicly known at the time because J. Michael Straczynski and O'Hare went to great lengths to not mention O'Hare's illness due to the fact that, if it came out, could have been career ending.

I'm not sure if Babylon 5 would have been as popular as it was if O'Hare hadn't left. Bruce Boxleitner was much better equipped for the lead role. O'Hare always reminded me of a stage actor that didn't quite make the transition - in terms of acting style - to TV/Film.

Perhaps Defiance could find a better lead actor as well, one who isn't as stiff as Grant Bowler... However, a lot of his problems are with the writing. It's hard to act well when you aren't given good dialogue (look at Natalie Portman in the Star Wars Prequels - amazing actress + terrible writing = bad performance).

For him to be safe, he'd have to have some chemistry. As in, at all. He's little more than a well-meaning thug who has a similar "doing the right thing" tally as Firefly's Jayne. Seriously, he was never trained as a lawman, he doesn't have a lawful disposition, and he does the wrong thing at every turn. Datak's right on one point: what the hell was Amanda thinking? "I need muscle and this guy fits the bill?"

What was Amanda thinking? "Look at that hunk with the rocking bod! I want to sleep with him so bad! But he's going to leave town... How can I keep him here... Oh, I know, we need a Sheriff! He'll make a great Sheriff! I'll get to talk to him every day and, eventually, he'll fall in love with me and we can start a family! Oh this is the best idea ever!"

He doesn't make the wrong decisions, he just makes the... On the classic D&D alignment axis he is Neutral/Good. He does what he thinks is right for the betterment of everyone, be it a convenient in terms of politics or not. The problem is that he's embroiled himself in a game of small town politics and he's not astute enough to realize it. There are lots of different ways he could have gone about certain situations, that would have easily helped get Amanda re-elected and keep Tar out of office. His problem is that he has tunnel vision and doesn't see the bigger picture. This is also a failing on Amanda's part because she DOES see the bigger picture and does nothing to stop her agent from running around and doing politically inconvenient things. She needed to put a leash on her Lawman and nudged/yanked him into doing what she really needed him to do.

He will remain as a part of the cast because - regardless of what we see - he is the main character. The plot and all of the game pieces revolve around him.He is our window into this world, which can't easily be replaced. Plus, the metaplot involving his Daughter basically requires him to be present, at least for the next season.

Corvus

2013-07-09, 06:15 PM

Hrm, so the Votan ship crashed on earth 3000 years before?

Maybe we should attempt to do an attempt at alignments for the cast. Given
the way that some of them move around it can be a bit hard.

Datak Tarr: LE.
Stahma Tarr: LE.

Both use the laws, political and cultural, for their own power. The definition of LE.

Alak Tarr. TN. Despite his parents he hasn't turned out evil - but I wouldn't call him good either.

Nolan. TN-NG. Swings around a bit between them.

Irisa. CN-CG. A bit of a wild child.

Tommy. NG.

Amanda Rosewater. NG.

Kenya Rosewater. TN-NG.

Rafe McCawley. TN-NG.

Christie McCawley. NG.

Doc Yewll. NE-TN.

Calemyr

2013-07-10, 09:07 AM

He doesn't make the wrong decisions, he just makes the... On the classic D&D alignment axis he is Neutral/Good. He does what he thinks is right for the betterment of everyone, be it a convenient in terms of politics or not. The problem is that he's embroiled himself in a game of small town politics and he's not astute enough to realize it. There are lots of different ways he could have gone about certain situations, that would have easily helped get Amanda re-elected and keep Tar out of office. His problem is that he has tunnel vision and doesn't see the bigger picture. This is also a failing on Amanda's part because she DOES see the bigger picture and does nothing to stop her agent from running around and doing politically inconvenient things. She needed to put a leash on her Lawman and nudged/yanked him into doing what she really needed him to do.

His constant (albeit well-meaning) screwing up would be one thing if he maintained a competence regarding it. Moments like where he catches the Irathian prisoner, showing that his skill makes up for his inadequate disposition, are too rare and he falls for stupid mistakes so easily. Comparing him to Jayne may not be fair, in that Nolan wants to do the right thing (Jayne doesn't much care), he just reliably does more harm than good in his zeal.

I would argue, however, that Tommy is Lawful Good. He believes in what he's doing, he believes that upholding the law is to the benefit of all. For all he used to be a low-grade card sharp, Tommy now sees the law as something worthy to uphold, rather than a convenient excuse to do good (such as Nolan) or an obstacle that frequently needs to be worked around or flat-out ignored (such as Irisa).

Doc... Doc is more interesting. I believe her goal IS to be Good, but she is far too pragmatic for the alignment. If getting her hands dirty or cooperating with the enemy will place her in a better position to turn the tide when it matters, she doesn't think twice.

navar100

2013-07-10, 11:31 AM

Doc only pretends to cooperate, not actually do it. That's a difference. She pretended to help Earth Rep foremost to save her life but also have some control of the situation with the McGuffin. When in position to do so, she told Irisa to do magic to escape. We don't know what the Doc wanted to do with McGuffin, so that leaves room for doubt. She put the found McGuffin into Irisa to go along with the one already inside her. She did not take out the one in Irisa when she had the chance. In her Evil days she probably put in the one inside Irisa in the first place. For now we can say the Doc is Good and seeking Atonement, and while she's no saint, so far she's been sincere to audience however duplicitous we know she's being to the rest of the party.

CletusMusashi

2013-07-11, 09:09 PM

I'd put Datak and Stahma as NE. If they were using this alignment system themselves, no doubt they'd consider themselves some form of Lawful. They're striving to be what we'd call LE, although I'm not too sure they consider it Evil.

But Datak, for all his admiration of things Lawful, is far too Chaotic at heart. When push comes to shove, he'll do whatever it takes to win. And I'm not talking about "winning at saving the world." I mean that, when it comes to advancing himself, he would much rather look classy while doing it, but if lying and slitting your throat is the only way to increase his own social standing then he'll do that. In fact, sometimes the only push or shove involved is his own temper tantrum.

And Stahma, while she's much better at keeping her cool than Datak is, is also quite willing to use chaos. Again, like Datak, she would probably justify it by citing enough tradition to make it sound arguably Lawful, but, no. I mean, she thought it was perfectly appropriate to shove the guy her family wanted her marry out an airlock! Hilgya flashbacks, anyone?

Palanan

2013-07-11, 09:20 PM

So, owing to a hard week, I just now watched the last episode online.

...Um. I think I missed the part where I was supposed to care. At all.

The only part I mildly enjoyed, as usual, was Days of Our Castithans. Stahma played Kenya perfectly. The gloves should've been a giveaway, but it hit me just a little too late. Presumably Stahma is handy with a spade.

Otherwise...urf. The Contriv-O-Plot meter is suddenly off the scale. Ahh, yes--yet another buried alien starship lying innocently beneath our heroes' hometown. I've never seen that before.

So, maybe now we know why the Votans came to Earth, out of all the potential habitable worlds they could've aimed for. Evidently their society has been poking around interstellar space for a little longer than we've been led to believe. But how does the late Colonel Marsh, of all people, know all this?

Oh yeah, Nolan was shot. While he was breathing his "last," I was trying to see if I actually cared: and didn't, because I knew for a fracking fact that he'd be back on his feet before the credits rolled. All I really felt was a dim optimism that they might actually have a better male lead for Season 2. Alas, that hope was quickly and predictably dashed.

So, Irisa has now bonded with an alien superweapon in order to save Nolan's life. Yawn. The long-lost starship is actually the Irathients' higher power. I think Star Trek did an episode like that.

And, E-Rep has taken over. This was mildly interesting, because they've been building up to this all along--if not in the way I'd been expecting. Like Nicolette's sudden demise, this seemed to happen a little too quickly, as if they were under pressure to wrap up a certain number of plot threads in time for the final cliffhanger.

And yet...the Care-O-Meter is reading 0.000 millicares. Apart from the Macawleys and the Tarrs, I genuinely don't care about anyone else in the show. Somehow this show has run a dozen episodes without providing me a single wispy, translucent reason to care about a central character.

I gather it's been renewed for a second season. I may watch it, whenever that comes out, but I doubt if I'll give it much thought until then.