Song of the White Raven Archer

[Piggy Knowles]

Hey, all,

I'm working on adding more entries to my google doc full of interesting archer builds, and I was hoping for some refinement on the last.

This is an attempt to make a Song of the White Raven archer. Should be pretty straightforward, but I've never tried to put together a ToB archer before, so I thought I'd post it here.

Some general things I'd like to refine:

1. As written, I'm basically stuck with a shortbow, since neither class gives longbow proficiency. Should I try to finagle EWP (Greatbow) into the build? The early feats are kind of tight, and while I could maybe rearrange some of the later feats, it just seems silly to me to switch out my weapon at level 15 or 18. I could also dip a level in something else (losing Diamond Defense isn't going to kill me), but I don't want to delay my initiating too much. EDIT: Gah, completely forgot about Bracers of Archery. That solves that issue neatly.

2. How screwed will I be if I don't fit Melodic Casting into the build? On a typical bardsader I'd definitely take it so that I could use a wand chamber and get some more bard spells, especially things like Whirling Blade, but I'm not sure how handy it will be here. The feats are pretty tight, so it's tough.

3. With only three bardic music uses, I'm going to be pretty ridiculously tight until very late levels, so usual tricks like having both regular IC and DFI up won't really fly. Is it worth bumping Woodland Archer back a bit to get Extra Music earlier? Or even one of the base archery feats?

4. Roots of the Mountain is a pretty ho-hum stance. It's entirely situational, I just couldn't think of anything else at that level. Any thoughts for swapping it out? I could maybe pick up a level one stance like Hunter's Sense (handy out of combat, although it overlaps with Hearing the Air) or Stance of Clarity (+2 AC for a stance seems even more ho-hum than Roots of the Mountain, though - at least Roots of the Mountain is handy in some situations, even if those situations are rare). And is Supreme Blade Parry the best choice for an 8th-level stance for an archer? EDIT: Switching Supreme Blade Parry out for Stance of Alacrity.

EDIT:
5. I've been considering switching to Bard 4/Warblade 16. That means an extra bardic music use, which is nice (especially at low levels) - lack of music uses per day has been bothering me about this build a lot. I'd also get a second level spell, which again will be handy at the low levels but more or less useless by the end. IL and BAB stay the same, although I would have one fewer high-level maneuver (I'd probably have to drop Diamond Defense, since I'll have to use my level 16 retrain in order to pick up both Raging Mongoose and Time Stands Still). Thoughts?

BUILD:
Silverbrow Human, Savage Bard 3/Warblade 17

FEATS:
1- Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot
3- Rapid Shot
6- Song of the Heart
8- Improved Initiative
9- Song of the White Raven
12- Dragonfire Inspiration, Iron Will
15- Woodland Archer
16- Great Fortitude
18- Extra Music
20- Blind-Fight

MANEUVERS:
1- Sudden Leap, Moment of Perfect Mind, Leading the Attack
2- Wall of Blades, Action Before Thought
3- White Raven Tactics, Iron Heart Surge
4- Covering Strike
5- Iron Heart Focus, Mountain Hammer
6- Order Forged from Chaos
7- Iron Heart Endurance, Quicksilver Motion
8- Raging Mongoose, Diamond Defense
9- Time Stands Still

STANCES:
Blood in the Water, Roots of the Mountain, Hearing the Air, Stance of Alacrity

Thanks, all!

[avr]

Another 1st level stance is probably more useful than Roots'. Similarly, I would't trade out Moment of Perfect Mind over, say, Covering Strike for an archer who's probably dumping wisdom. Higher level isn't always better.

At that level (19+) I'd go for Stance of Alacrity over Supreme Blade Parry, assuming I had Moment of Perfect Mind available.

[Piggy Knowles]

Another 1st level stance is probably more useful than Roots'. Similarly, I would't trade out Moment of Perfect Mind over, say, Covering Strike for an archer who's probably dumping wisdom. Higher level isn't always better.

At that level (19+) I'd go for Stance of Alacrity over Supreme Blade Parry, assuming I had Moment of Perfect Mind available.

Fair enough. For an archer, the only real level one options (beyond Blood in the Water, which I already have as my main offensive stance) are Hunter's Sense and Stance of Clarity. Hunter's Sense seems better overall, especially since it could have some usefulness outside of battle, but that feels like it overlaps a bit with Hearing the Air.

I liked the idea of Covering Strike because, as an archer, I can help out my party by shutting down opposing AoO's from afar. But I can see why keeping Moment of Perfect Mind is probably a better option.

My other thought, from looking this over, is to switch to Bard 4/Warblade 16. I'll end up with the same BAB and IL in the end, but one fewer maneuver (and I lose the last bonus feat, but whatever). In return I'd end up with an extra use of bardic music per day... and the lack of bardic music uses has been a worry. Not really sure which method will be better.

[rypt]

Just want to mention that Bracers of Archery will give you proficiency with any bow.

[Piggy Knowles]

Just want to mention that Bracers of Archery will give you proficiency with any bow.

Good lord, I can't believe I forgot about them. Yeah, I'd much rather spend 5k than worry about shoehorning in a better bow proficiency. Anyhow, the more I think about it, the more I realize that it wouldn't be worth upgrading even if I did have the extra feat - I'm getting enough bonus damage on my shots that the 1d6 versus 1d8 really isn't a significant difference.

[Vaz]

An Ardent 10/Warblade 10 gets you an IL of 15th, and the ability to Manifest 9th level powers (although shy of Expanded Knowledge, you only know 1), which means that although you miss out on Time Stands Still, and the goodies of later Warblade class features. Although you do get through that the ability make two Full Attacks in a Full Round action, the Ardent 10 gets you the ability to Manifest Linked Synchronicity/Sychronicity alongside Schism for a Full Attack, Standard Attack, and a purely mental action on top of that (Manifesting Linked Power Synchronicity again?). Your BAB should by 17.

It trades your Full Attack (3 Rounds, gets you 20 Bow Attacks, compared to 15 Bow Attacks), but more actual use within the party outside of combat.

Of course, that doesn't actually benefit your goal of Song of the White Raven, so go figure.

[Darrin]

Fair enough. For an archer, the only real level one options (beyond Blood in the Water, which I already have as my main offensive stance) are Hunter's Sense and Stance of Clarity. Hunter's Sense seems better overall, especially since it could have some usefulness outside of battle, but that feels like it overlaps a bit with Hearing the Air.


Consider Bolstering Voice. +2 to will saves (and +4 on fear saves) is nothing to snear at.

My notes on Ranged Warblades (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10296220&postcount=420).



I liked the idea of Covering Strike because, as an archer, I can help out my party by shutting down opposing AoO's from afar.


I did not consider Covering Strike as working with ranged attacks... but now that I'm reading through it... that might work. It says "make your attacks as normal", and doesn't really specify melee, except when it refers to your opponents taking damage. I don't see any wording that explicitly forbids ranged attacks. Hmm. I may need to revise my list of ranged-friendly maneuvers.



My other thought, from looking this over, is to switch to Bard 4/Warblade 16. I'll end up with the same BAB and IL in the end, but one fewer maneuver (and I lose the last bonus feat, but whatever).

Consider slipping in a 1-level dip into Crusader. Crusaders are proficient with all ranged martial weapons, including longbows. Hmmm...

Bard 3/Warblade 5/Crusader 1 lets you grab Lion's Roar, White Raven Tactics, Defensive Rebuke, Mountain Hammer, Shield Block, and... that "attack a tree, heal 2 HP" stance.

[Piggy Knowles]

Thanks, Darrin - I'm reading through your notes on ranged Warblades, and there's a lot of good stuff there.

I'll have to think about that Crusader dip. It might be nice to open up what I have access to, although the longbow proficiency is now less of a concern, since rypt reminded me of the Bracers of Archery.

Vaz, that's not a bad build idea, but not really the direction I'm going with this one.

[Vaz]

YeahnInstarted typingnthen realised I couldn't fit in the requisite Bard Levels for the upper maneuvres.

[kulosle]

I don't have that many suggestions but i love bards and think the build could be help by optimizing IC better and then just trying to get as many attacks. I look forward to seeing what this turns into.

[Piggy Knowles]

I don't have that many suggestions but i love bards and think the build could be help by optimizing IC better and then just trying to get as many attacks. I look forward to seeing what this turns into.

Well, this has the bardic music of a 20th level bard, plus Song of the Heart and Inspirational Boost. Add on a Badge of Valor and Vest of Legends and I'm looking at +8 IC. I'm not sure how I could do better without Words of Creation.

So I guess I could try to fit Words of Creation in, but even with 32-point buy, I am having a heck of a time finding a way to meet its stat requirements. Requiring a 15 in a dump stat, and another 15 in a stat that is tertiary at best, is pretty tough. Also, I don't like sticking [Exalted] feats onto characters unless that's their whole deal - the A-Game Paladin (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/29110689) works with Words of Creation because the Exalted code is only a minor step up from the paladin's code in the first place. I don't like the idea of locking this build into being Exalted, though.