Keeping Thieves Out of the Mint

[Skysaber]

Ok, it's happened. Your PCs find themselves in charge of a kingdom (or any smaller-scale equivalent, even a business). The point is, they now have wealth that they are not wearing 24/7.

How do you keep the thieves from owning everything you once did?

I look at the rogue class, and particularly optimization board threads where they produce thieves that could sneak up to a dragon and crawl up its nose to steal its teeth while it was still awake and talking, and I despair.

There are loads of ways that PCs could end up in charge of something. Power of Faerun is all about this, as are numerous adventure paths, all the way back to first ed with Bloodstone Keep, on up to PF's Kingmaker, to say nothing of passing mentions here or there. It's all over the books and genre.

Particularly in a situation like Kingmaker. You're on the frontier, no particular support from any established nation, you've got a gold mine, even a silver one. There is nothing to prevent you from issuing your own currency, except that how on earth are you going to do so without rogues walking in and out with all of your money?

Could you even keep a determined rogue out of a room? What about a place the normal people, not super-powered adventurers (say your employees) had to have access to?

Since I really don't see how anyone is keeping a really optimized thief out of anyplace he wants to go, perhaps we should cut up the challenge into categories, ie, stuff that is effective against CR5 thieves, then CR10, CR15, CR 20, and just for the sake of it an Unlimited category (not that I expect any entries into this last one).

Seriously, does anybody have any ideas?

[DeltaEmil]

Hire the thieves to rob your rivals. Or hire them to make them your security chiefs, giving them a very luxurious pay that is enough for them to not rob you for that secure job, but still not too much for you that it would be less costly to let them rob you. Give them privileges like having discount prices when visiting a whorehouse or a temple of the god/dess of lust and sex. Marry them to your daughters/sons (make sure they produce a son/daughter) to bind them to your family.

Or just hire a mighty wizard who simply kills all the rogues. But beware, such wizards can of course also kill you and take over your kingdom, or simply mind control you.

[Marnath]

I imagine the solution would involve Wondrous Architecture from the Stronghold Builder's Guide.

[Grod_The_Giant]

The answer really depends on how much the DM optimizes. A basic truism about 3.5/PF is that if you try hard enough, you can break anything, to an arbitrarily high level of broken.

Are we talking straight core halfling rogues? Rogue/PrC with some decent feats and equipment? Rogue-with-five-level-dips, 10 feats from 10 books and equipment from 20, all aimed solely at robbing static strongholds?

At the most basic, a bunch of alarm spells, good lighting, and some competent guards-- maybe undead for the immunities-- should go a long way.

Dimension Lock and some permanancied prismatic walls should stop almost anything. Bonus points if you surround the area with antimagic fields.

[Ranos]

The point is, they now have wealth that they are not wearing 24/7.
Doesn't have to be that way. If a room can hold it, a good bag of holding will carry your entire kingdom's treasury as well.
Even better if each PC has one, so you can split it up.

[Marnath]

Doesn't have to be that way. If a room can hold it, a good bag of holding will carry your entire kingdom's treasury as well.
Even better if each PC has one, so you can split it up.

And then your steward can't use it to pay the guards salaries, or to buy them new equipment. In order to run a kingdom or whatever, the money has to actually be available for use.

[Ranos]

So instead of going to the treasury room to get the money, he goes to a PC to get the money ? Takes the same amount of time.

[Magnera]

So instead of going to the treasury room to get the money, he goes to a PC to get the money ? Takes the same amount of time.

And if said PC is off adventuring?

[Rhynn]

Why are there so many high-level thieves in your campaign world?

Or are you worrying about thieves in the more general sense? There's not a whole lot anyone can do against a sufficiently higher-level barbarian or wizard, frankly. But why are they stealing this wealth, and not doing something more useful with their time? High-level characters in particular should have better things to do than sneak around stealing every little kingdom's treasures.

What sort of high-level thieves are you worried about, exactly, anyway?

I suggest an experiment: make your players' PCs protect something from thieves. Let them plan in secret from you, writing their defenses down (on separate cards or whatever), then you try to have a thief you built rob the place - the players essentially acting as a collective DM, noting when their defenses come into play. This should give you an idea of what sort of thief could actually break in.

Edit: Also, why keep your (entire) wealth in a physical location instead of as lines of credit with bankers, merchant houses, and other realms? Certainly, you need some for solvency, but probably only enough to cover any one debt-holder's demands at a time...

[Randomguy]

And then your steward can't use it to pay the guards salaries, or to buy them new equipment. In order to run a kingdom or whatever, the money has to actually be available for use.

This isn't a substantial difficulty. Just divide the money up into several bags of holding/portable holes (better than keeping it all in one place) and keep those safe, maybe each character will be in charge of protecting one. Then the characters set up a schedule so that every month a different one of them hands the steward X gold to pay for all monthly expenses.

In terms of actually keeping something unstealable on your person, or anywhere:
Method 1: The inexpensive method. Put valuables in a bag of holding and cast Greater Alarm on it. Then cast Magic Mouth to set off if someone tries to steal it.

Method 2: The safer method. Get a Short Sword with a Wand Chamber in it. Put your valuables in a portable hole, and roll up the portable hole and put it in the wand chamber. Then get yourself a magic item, preferably an Eternal Wand at high CL, of Absorb Weapon. Keep the short sword absorbed at all times. A Magic Mouth on the sword to shout if someone tries to steal it anyway would be a decent precaution, too.

[Ranos]

They're in charge, aren't they ? I can see one or two of them leaving for diplomatic reasons once in a while, but all the rulers leaving at once ?

I guess it depends how you rule your kingdom. Worst case scenario, if there's a world ending threat that no one else can take care of and they have to abandon their city for a long while, they designate a regent and leave a bag or two to him.

[Zero grim]

You can never overstate misdirection and intimidation, perhaps have an almost unbeatable vault that apparently houses the treasure, put in some well hidden flaw that can be exploited that would be the easiest way in, for example have the key carried by the owner of the bank, then just curse the key (or mark of justice) all else fails have the vault be fake so eevn if they pass the curse they gain nothing.

Or just guard the real vault with golems or other such expensive and powerful creatures (better to spend some money on defence then lose it all to a robber)

Last solution, line the entire bank with lead and have the only way in be a passwall or teleport circle in a hidden spot.

[Glimbur]

Or are you worrying about thieves in the more general sense? There's not a whole lot anyone can do against a sufficiently higher-level barbarian or wizard, frankly. But why are they stealing this wealth, and not doing something more useful with their time? High-level characters in particular should have better things to do than sneak around stealing every little kingdom's treasures.

This is wisdom. You don't have to make the vault impenetrable, you just have to make it not worth doing.

Of course, you'll also have to consider those who do it for the challenge, but making it tedious to enter could help. Throw in some puzzles that can be brute-forced but take a while, and are otherwise expensive to get around. Think about what makes a boring/bad dungeon and do some of that. Also, don't spend too much or your treasury is easy to guard because it is all spent on traps.

[Matticussama]

I almost always use Leadership to build my character's Steward/Castellan who stays to guard the keep/treasury/etc. In my experience, DMs are much more willing to allow Leadership when they serve mainly a RP and defensive purpose (guarding your keep) rather than always adventuring with them. Build your Cohort sufficiently optimized to deal with equal level optimized builds, so that they can deal with those sneaky Rogues. Combine that with the Landlord feat from Stronghold Builder's Guide so that you can build an extremely well-defended keep without having to sink your entire character wealth into it, and it should be able to defend itself from most reasonable threats.

If after all of that enemies still manage to sneak through and cause problems, it is probably in the realm of DM fiat where no level of prep work would keep the enemies from doing something. The DM at that point is probably just using it as an easy plot hook.

[Skysaber]

Hire the thieves to rob your rivals. Or hire them to make them your security chiefs, giving them a very luxurious pay that is enough for them to not rob you for that secure job, but still not too much for you that it would be less costly to let them rob you. Give them privileges like having discount prices when visiting a whorehouse or a temple of the god/dess of lust and sex. Marry them to your daughters/sons (make sure they produce a son/daughter) to bind them to your family.

Sadly, such a situation historically has always ended with a knife in your back and the thief on the throne.


Or just hire a mighty wizard who simply kills all the rogues. But beware, such wizards can of course also kill you and take over your kingdom, or simply mind control you.

Proactively killing all of the rogues you can find is an approach I hadn't thought of. But unless you've got a very, very good excuse, it's apt to garner you a few poor reputation - and they do their best not to get caught doing things bad enough to give you those excuses.


I imagine the solution would involve Wondrous Architecture from the Stronghold Builder's Guide.

Possibly, but what exactly? All I find there are walls and locks, some of which wouldn't keep out a determined badger, to say nothing of an optimized thief (or even a very common thief, most of them).


The answer really depends on how much the DM optimizes. A basic truism about 3.5/PF is that if you try hard enough, you can break anything, to an arbitrarily high level of broken. .

So can that be applied in reverse? Can you make a defense so broken they can't get in? Or out again?


Are we talking straight core halfling rogues? Rogue/PrC with some decent feats and equipment? Rogue-with-five-level-dips, 10 feats from 10 books and equipment from 20, all aimed solely at robbing static strongholds?.

As a general concept a defense does not get to pick what threats will come against it. The ideal is they have to be ready for anything, as anything is available, and may come at you at any time. However, in practical terms, just stopping whatever you can is already a tall order.

The less optimized the thief, the more common they are. But they come in all styles and levels, so potentially anything could be out there (and most won't bother if they don't feel they can make it).

I suppose it is a bit like making a water resistant watch. Nothing can survive everything, but if just a few raindrops can short out your watch you'll never be able to tell time. So the more it can be put through and still function, the better.


At the most basic, a bunch of alarm spells, good lighting, and some competent guards-- maybe undead for the immunities-- should go a long way..

I can't think of many PC thieves that would do more than slow down, except at 1st level.


Dimension Lock and some permanancied prismatic walls should stop almost anything. Bonus points if you surround the area with antimagic fields.

And access? Because rogues have Disguise and Bluff skills as well.


If a room can hold it, a good bag of holding will carry your entire kingdom's treasury as well. Even better if each PC has one, so you can split it up. So instead of going to the treasury room to get the money, he goes to a PC to get the money. Takes the same amount of time.

Doesn't this just effectively make the PCs their own stewards? That's a full time job, as there is both money coming in and going out more or less all of the time, and most PCs have things they'd rather be doing than managing their own accounts like that. Rather short-sighted, I know, as that would be the most secure way. But they'd rather be out adventuring or ruling than doing accountancy.

Also, it doesn't help if someone has to be doing something with that wealth. For example, if you have received raw nuggets from your mine that you'd like to mint into coins.

Unless you just Fabricate it, I suppose. Bypass the mint entirely is another approach I hadn't considered.

[Telonius]

Usually I have the highest-level thief running the mint...

[Grod_The_Giant]

Alternate answer: I take reasonable precautions (build a nice, secure dungeon vault, magic it up a bit), and assume that the DM isn't going to randomly say "hahahaha, you didn't take [x optimization trick] into account, now all your money is gone, you lose lolz!!1!" If he wants a huge theft to be part of a story, it'll happen regardless of what I do, so why waste the time?

[fryplink]

Keep the gold on the PC's, but either keep enough around for running expenses, or use vouchers. Most transactions in the US don't involve actual currency, they just involve a bank(s) changing the values on the bottom of two ledgers. The PC's carry the gold around, and when they come home for a bit, they just top off everyone who needs topping off. Meanwhile, all physical currency needs are met by local banks.

When Joe McSoldier turns in he voucher, the bank gives them currency from their reserves. Then when Fighter McPC comes home, he reimburses the bank, and maybe gives them a little extra for their trouble (if the local economy isn't powered by various forms of lending).

Tada. The vast majority of your wealth is as safe as it needs to be, while back home continues to work.

[zlefin]

the primary defense against thieves isn't wards or spells or traps.
The primary defense is threat: if you take our stuff, we'll try to get it back. Angering high level adventurers by stealing their stuff leaves you facing an angry party of adventurers.
It's kind of like stealing from the mob; there's people who do it; but not many, as there's a lot of risk involved.

[Ranos]

If there are people brave enough to steal from dragons, you bet there are people who'll steal from high level adventurers.
As ruler, you're a choice target. If you don't take care, it only takes one Vecna-blooded optimized thief in the entire world for your treasury to be gone with no hope of recovery.

[Skysaber]

My players rejected the idea of the Bag of Holding tricks in general, saying that it's fine for personal wealth but when thieves know you've got the kingdom's treasury in your pocket (and it would be known eventually) you'd attract pickpockets like nobody's business.

A pickpocket attempt is their Sleight of Hand opposed by your Spot, and rogues excel at opposed skill checks like those. In fact, they'd rather do something based on a skill check than just about anything else.

It's the same reason traps are generally a bad idea. For them it's just a simple skill check to get past them, and any moderately competent rogue could beat just about any trap DC in the game. They love skill checks.

Similarly, vouchers got rejected as a bad idea when it got pointed out that only opened up another avenue of theft: Forgery. It's another skill check, and you'll never beat a rogue at skill checks. Their forged papers would pass as originals easier than yours would.

Our games are adaptive. If players take enough precautions against something bad happening, it generally doesn't even happen. But if you leave yourself open, well, you get what you deserve.

Asking other banks/countries to hold your wealth and just give you letters of credit has both the voucher problem (well, this guy showed up with your letter of credit, so naturally we disbursed your gold to him) but also it just defers the problem, to whit: Somebody has got to guard the gold.

IRL Fort Knox has an armored division. It also has walls and bars and gates and such, but it's the armored division that really does it.

With all of the spatbooks and campaign guides at our disposal, can we really not come up with some better method than "guys with guns"?

[Pickford]

Ok, it's happened. Your PCs find themselves in charge of a kingdom (or any smaller-scale equivalent, even a business). The point is, they now have wealth that they are not wearing 24/7.

How do you keep the thieves from owning everything you once did?

I look at the rogue class, and particularly optimization board threads where they produce thieves that could sneak up to a dragon and crawl up its nose to steal its teeth while it was still awake and talking, and I despair.

There are loads of ways that PCs could end up in charge of something. Power of Faerun is all about this, as are numerous adventure paths, all the way back to first ed with Bloodstone Keep, on up to PF's Kingmaker, to say nothing of passing mentions here or there. It's all over the books and genre.

Particularly in a situation like Kingmaker. You're on the frontier, no particular support from any established nation, you've got a gold mine, even a silver one. There is nothing to prevent you from issuing your own currency, except that how on earth are you going to do so without rogues walking in and out with all of your money?

Could you even keep a determined rogue out of a room? What about a place the normal people, not super-powered adventurers (say your employees) had to have access to?

Since I really don't see how anyone is keeping a really optimized thief out of anyplace he wants to go, perhaps we should cut up the challenge into categories, ie, stuff that is effective against CR5 thieves, then CR10, CR15, CR 20, and just for the sake of it an Unlimited category (not that I expect any entries into this last one).

Seriously, does anybody have any ideas?

Make sure it's well lit without any cover. No cover, no hiding (short of hide in plain sight).

Then put up permanent symbols in plain view that drive the uninitiated insane, or whatever. That'll do it for anyone trying to sneak in without major warding. Finally: Have a door/gate that has to be opened in view of people to proceed with a nice kill-zone. and layer the treasure room itself with a permanent dimensional lock and/or anti-magic zone.

Edit: And if you want to be a real jerk, put in a fake entrance that passes over a permanent teleportation circle sending the person who steps on it (no saves!) somewhere fatal. Like the Negative Energy Plane or the center of some Volcano.

[Matticussama]

At very high levels, Living Vault becomes a good go-to solution. Of course, that requires getting into Epic before it becomes viable. In the same vein, there is the high level (but not epic) demiplane option.

[Ranos]

A pickpocket attempt is their Sleight of Hand opposed by your Spot, and rogues excel at opposed skill checks like those. In fact, they'd rather do something based on a skill check than just about anything else.


I don't think there's a way to use Sleight of Hand to steal someone's bag. Can't see it in the Epic Uses of Sleight of Hand anyway.
It would work as a disarm+run/teleport away, but that's much easier to defend from (and a lot less people in the world are going to be optimized for that).

Mostly I suspect you'd get muggers, not pickpockets, but that's everyday adventurer life.

[Hyde]

If you want to borrow my treasure golem, you can.

It doesn't take much to whip up, it's basically a "mass animate object- hive mind" spell.

In this instance, your collection of gold pieces becomes its own guardian. I give mine blindsight and tremorsense in squares where there's treasure. It has a breath weapon (a cone of gold rapidly propelled) that does its HD in d10 bludgeoning damage. It can grapple, engulf, and constrict. Any particular piece can be broken off (the spell dismissed) with a command word, and any piece tossed into the pile becomes a part of the treasure golem (like a boneyard).

I could stat it out again for you, but it's been years and it's pretty easy to figure out.

[Hyde]

It also has the bonus of if thieves are fighting it, they're destroying its value as currency.

[Zaq]

I feel like this is something you bind very strong and very lawful outsiders to help you with.

[Skysaber]

I don't think there's a way to use Sleight of Hand to steal someone's bag. Can't see it in the Epic Uses of Sleight of Hand anyway.

Generally if you can show a DM that it's possible in RL they'll allow it in a game. There are certain exceptions (firearms are a good one) but generally speaking, if it's possible in RL they'll allow it in the game.

Now I want you to go to youtube and search up pickpockets. They have performances on there where they'll steal not only watches, but ties, shirts, underpants, belts, you name it, while the audience is watching - and while the marks are forewarned and on guard against it.

There is even a name for a specialized bag thief. They are called Purse Snatchers.

Stuff is belted, buttoned, tied or otherwise clamped to your body? No problem. Go watch those pickpockets again.

And while PCs generally spend virtually all they have optimizing against combat encounters, few if any have any real defense against pickpockets. So, truly, it is only through DM kindness that most adventuring parties don't regularly get stripped to their boxer shorts before leaving town.


If you want to borrow my treasure golem, you can.

It doesn't take much to whip up, it's basically a "mass animate object- hive mind" spell.

In this instance, your collection of gold pieces becomes its own guardian. I give mine blindsight and tremorsense in squares where there's treasure. It has a breath weapon (a cone of gold rapidly propelled) that does its HD in d10 bludgeoning damage. It can grapple, engulf, and constrict. Any particular piece can be broken off (the spell dismissed) with a command word, and any piece tossed into the pile becomes a part of the treasure golem (like a boneyard).

I could stat it out again for you, but it's been years and it's pretty easy to figure out.

Would you? That's actually a really, really nice solution to this problem.

Misdirection and threats were the other answers I was really impressed by.

Well, and lawful outsiders, obviously.

[TypoNinja]

Good bars, Sentries, good lighting, and clear sight lines are where its at.

Everybody forgets, it doesn't matter what your hide check is, you still need something to hide behind.

Things like a airlock (not actually needing to be airtight), just a small room with two doors, where only one can be opened at a time. (There are purely mechanical ways to accomplish this). If you are really feeling paranoid, make it an anti-magic room too.

Don't go overboard, balance cost vs accessibility, with a high enough escape artist check you can walk through a wall of force, on the other hand anybody with an escape artist check that high isn't interested in your vault.

[Flame of Anor]

Okay, how about this:


Put serial numbers on your gold bars.
Make a super-secret list of, say, 1 in 100 of the bars.
Put a horrible curse on every bar on the list.
Only use the non-cursed gold bars when you need gold.
Thieves steal gold and get horribly cursed.

[Regitnui]

If you want to borrow my treasure golem, you can.

It doesn't take much to whip up, it's basically a "mass animate object- hive mind" spell.

In this instance, your collection of gold pieces becomes its own guardian. I give mine blindsight and tremorsense in squares where there's treasure. It has a breath weapon (a cone of gold rapidly propelled) that does its HD in d10 bludgeoning damage. It can grapple, engulf, and constrict. Any particular piece can be broken off (the spell dismissed) with a command word, and any piece tossed into the pile becomes a part of the treasure golem (like a boneyard).

I could stat it out again for you, but it's been years and it's pretty easy to figure out.

I like this. It sounds like a good thing for a DM to spring on the players, and fits in quite well with the setting I'm using at the moment...

[avr]

If you want something likely cheaper there's a packmate homunculus (Eberron Campaign Setting, I think.) It's a self-propelled treasure chest. Stealing from it pretty much requires killing it or deceiving its owner, picking pockets or disarm won't work. Though as it is no sort of combat monster you'll need effective guards around.

[TypoNinja]

If you want to borrow my treasure golem, you can.

It doesn't take much to whip up, it's basically a "mass animate object- hive mind" spell.

In this instance, your collection of gold pieces becomes its own guardian. I give mine blindsight and tremorsense in squares where there's treasure. It has a breath weapon (a cone of gold rapidly propelled) that does its HD in d10 bludgeoning damage. It can grapple, engulf, and constrict. Any particular piece can be broken off (the spell dismissed) with a command word, and any piece tossed into the pile becomes a part of the treasure golem (like a boneyard).

I could stat it out again for you, but it's been years and it's pretty easy to figure out.

Me want. I'd love a copy of not just its stats but instructions on how to build one myself. I've got a game where I am a dragon, the idea of a self guarding hoard is just too good to pass up.

[Yahzi]

With all of the spatbooks and campaign guides at our disposal, can we really not come up with some better method than "guys with guns"?
Nope.

1) It's how it works in the real world. Your average bank can't withstand even a moderately equipped group of bandits. It is fear of being caught that deters most thefts.

2) The entire point of D&D spells, skills, and classes is to overcome static defenses. Like dungeons, vaults, and safes. So no, you cannot build anything that a PC class cannot defeat. By design.

D&D is a game, not a simulation, and you've just discovered the glaring hole that proves it. Defensive spells are outnumbered by offensive spells 10 to 1.

In my world the answer is: low levels (you only need to stop 9th level or lower thieves), fear of getting caught (clerics abound and Commune will lead them right to you), and investment (your wealth is in castles and armies, not huge piles of gold just sitting around not doing anything - you spend the gold as fast as it comes in).

[supermonkeyjoe]

If its rogues that you're worried about then cater to their weaknesses, heap the treasure in a huge well lit featureless room, covered in an anti-magic field with a group of undead, oozes, plants and golems to guard it. your average thief type isn't going to be able to sneak up due to lack of cover, and if by some wonder they manage to reach the treasure they wont be able to carry much because all their extradimensional bags are shut down by the AMF.

The thieves also need to be able to do something with the treasure, keep it in a form other than easily-spendable gold coins, if the treasure is stored in 5'x5'x5' gold blocks then few thieves are going to be able to move that, let alone sell it on, Just employ some court mages to cast fabricate on one of the blocks if you need quick coinage, you can get the golems to help move it out of the AMF for you.

You can also make sure that stealing the treasure is a massively unattractive proposition, publicly announce every failure. set a standing reward for any news of stolen treasure, if a thief tries to fence the ill-gotten gains then theres a chance they'll be handed in for the reward. Announce publicly the terrible retribution for being caught stealing.

[Jack_Simth]

Well, as others have stated, there really isn't a perfect defence in D&D. If nothing else, a few readied actions + the Transport Traveler's clause of wish (twice) by three people or so can snag almost anything portable.

However, you can make it very expensive.

1) Get a Demiplane from Genesis.
2) Have a Dweomerkeeper duplicate a Supernatural Spell of Forbiddance (via Miracle) over the entire demiplane except for a single well-marked five-foot cube.
3) Have a perfectly loyal minion (simulacrum that you made yourself) permanently reside on said demiplane.
4) Place a five-foot cube of solid materal (Riverine, ideally; you want it to affect incorporeal critters) in that non-forbiddanced spot.
5) Whenever you need in, you Send the simulacrum some orders (there's an identity response built in to Sending) involving moving the cube out of the way. Then you plane shift in, step aside, and have the simulacrum put the cube back.
6) To get out, you move the cube, order the simulacrum to put it back after you're gone, then plane shift out.

You can easily add anyone to the list - just bring the person for the simulacrum to meet, let the simulacrum know they're authorized... but the person to come in has to be able to do Sending and Plane Shift, so this limits your list). It can still be broken into short of Wish (a very small thief hitching a ride on someone who is authorized, really good timing, and suborning someone who is authorized come to mind), but there's a pretty hefty barrier.

[Hyde]

What CR do you want this thing at?

[Vaz]

Antimagic Field/Dead Magic Zone in an Exitless Room buried deep in the crust. It is filled with completely stagnant, oxygen deficient highly poisonous water, and some purely mechanical traps.

The deoxygenated water is fine if you've only got non-perishable goods, or everything so perishable is kept within multiple waterproof lined boxes. Mechanical traps could include some some trapdoors for say Undead Pirahna Swarms; or some kind of other non-breathing swimming swarm.

Have two (or more) Necropolitan Archivists of Mystra with the Initiate of Mystra Feat. Perhaps a couple multi-class into Psionic characters so that they can manifest powers in a Psionics is different campaign. One (or more) stay in the exitless room and be the permanent guardians. The gold and goods is kept here. They have Greater Anticipate Teleport up at all times. They ready things like Force Cage or Dominate, or what not, that essentially render the enemies immobile under they suffocate and die.

As the Anticipate Teleport allows the Necropolitans in the box to recognise Type, Size, and number of teleporters, anything that is not; presumably, a single Medium Undead creature (or any sort of unique identifying combination for your Necropolitan) that is teleporting into the room is targeted by a ton of spells, in the event that the room itself has its method of access known, and they have the ability to fight within that location; they are immediately neutered.

On the surface, have a "treasure room" that is little more than an Illusion, maintained by a Shadowcraft Mage, but the remaining Necropolitan is the go-to guy. Anytime anyone wants some coins/stored wealth, they send an exact request to the guy in stores. The guy in stores then teleports downstairs, has a good rummage about (despite the delay from Greater Anticipate Teleportation) and brings up the goods; essentially, within the space of at least 5 turns, you have whatever you need.

[Krobar]

My epic sorcerer went ahead and burned the experience to use wishes to protect his treasure vault. 1) no creature other than him can enter, 2) no creature other than him can remove treasure from it, and 3) to immediately know, if and when something IS removed from the treasure room by a creature other than him, everything about all of the creatures who were complicit in the removal of the treasure.

There are a few other things as well, such as Forbiddance, Hallow and Mage's Private Sanctum, but the wishes are the most important aspects.

These can easily be modified at casting time to allow specified others to enter and remove treasure if needed.

[TentacleSurpris]

You can't steal land.

Have your PCs do what actual rulers do with their money, which is investing it in infrastructure. Hire tradespeople to build cathedrals, build bridges, build mills, dam rivers, cut down forests, plant new crops, educate the children of the land. Plant gardens, build aqueducts, pave roads, train tradespeople, breed horses and livestock, build markets, etc etc etc.

Re-invest that wealth back into the kingdom. High-level thieves can't steal a university or a fountain.

Then appoint barons and knights to each manage their territory and the finances therein (set up a feudal system), thereby decentralizing your wealth. There is no central vault, there are hundreds of manor houses whose income is only marginally higher than their infrastructure project costs, thereby keeping low cash on hand. These barons and knights owe you fealty and owe their prosperity to you, give them authority to raise armies but don't keep an army yourself. The threat of high-level PCs will keep the barons in line, armies or no.

Feudal national governments were never really rich, their barons held all the wealth, but the barons had a vested interest in keeping the royal government in place because it gave them a lot of freedom. There just wasn't much reason to seize the throne, and the other barons provided disincentive.

[JusticeZero]

If you keep it all in one place, it WILL be stolen eventually. Invest, and put it in a lot of smaller reserves so that a treasury being ransacked will be an annoying setback, not a disaster.

[Vaz]

You can steal from the Land; but the guys who are in charge of making it can steal from the pot; Corruption is common.

That wealth, however, is not accessible by you.

Edit; if it's all going to be stolen by being all in one place, using the "vault" I have created above, how would a party steal the wealth from there?

[JusticeZero]

By either becoming vault guards or by creating invalid orders for money.

That said, a stash of coins isn't doing you much good; invest it.

[hewhosaysfish]

Well, as others have stated, there really isn't a perfect defence in D&D. If nothing else, a few readied actions + the Transport Traveler's clause of wish (twice) by three people or so can snag almost anything portable.

However, you can make it very expensive.

And you can work out how expensice you should make it. Since a Wish spell can create a 500lb gold ingot ("a nonmagical item of up to 25,000 gp in value") you just have to make sure that that:

Amount Stolen - (Cost To Steal + Price of Pissing Off Authorities) < 50,000gp


5) Whenever you need in, you Send the simulacrum some orders (there's an identity response built in to Sending) involving moving the cube out of the way. Then you plane shift in, step aside, and have the simulacrum put the cube back.

Nitpick: As always with 3.5, there's a spell for that - False Sending from the BoVD allows you to impersonate another caster.
(For bonus fun, False Sending is an Illusion spell rather than an Evocation like regular Sending. One more reason to take Evocation as a banned school.)

This isn't a fatal flaw in the plan but the Simulacrum would need to be outfitted with True Seeing, Anticipate Teleport and enough ass-kicking power to fend off any two Medium Humanoid thieves the ability to cast Sending itself to verify any Sendings it receives.

[Krobar]

You can't steal land.

Have your PCs do what actual rulers do with their money, which is investing it in infrastructure. Hire tradespeople to build cathedrals, build bridges, build mills, dam rivers, cut down forests, plant new crops, educate the children of the land. Plant gardens, build aqueducts, pave roads, train tradespeople, breed horses and livestock, build markets, etc etc etc.

Re-invest that wealth back into the kingdom. High-level thieves can't steal a university or a fountain.

Then appoint barons and knights to each manage their territory and the finances therein (set up a feudal system), thereby decentralizing your wealth. There is no central vault, there are hundreds of manor houses whose income is only marginally higher than their infrastructure project costs, thereby keeping low cash on hand. These barons and knights owe you fealty and owe their prosperity to you, give them authority to raise armies but don't keep an army yourself. The threat of high-level PCs will keep the barons in line, armies or no.

Feudal national governments were never really rich, their barons held all the wealth, but the barons had a vested interest in keeping the royal government in place because it gave them a lot of freedom. There just wasn't much reason to seize the throne, and the other barons provided disincentive.

What if you don't want to be king?

[Vaz]

How would you become a Vault Guard? You'd have to be one who could cast within the AMF within the Vault, capable of surviving the lack of oxygen. Otherwise, you'd just be some mook outside the door as a "mundane guard". And even if you got within the Vault, perfectly recreating the type and size of the Necropolitan "Doorman", and were able to survive that long within the Vault (non-magical ability to breathe, immunity to the diseased and poisoned water)
, if you weren't recognised to be someone authorised within the Vault, then the traps would be triggered, and you'd be subject to the typical spells and powers of the current guards, who would question you and determine your reason for being there.

If you don't meet their expectations, and divinations, they will simply Mindrape you, or Microcosm, and then destroy you at their leisure.

Still, the question was not "should I invest", but rather "how to protect" the gold. Being fair, though, by the time that they are powerful enough to do them tricks, particularly to have such powerful individuals as the Necropolitan Guards, they are pretty much making jigsaw puzzles out of the little pieces of reality anyway. Still, it's a fairly effective Tippyverse "bank"; provided that tippyverse hasn't removed the need for money.

It does give a whole new meaning to the bank manager saying "No", to a loan though. Push him any further, and if he says "The Undead clerics of Ultimate Cosmic Power said so".

[TentacleSurpris]

What if you don't want to be king?

Well that's the whole point of the exercise. If you don't want to be king, put your stuff in a bag of holding, wear it on your back, and keep adventuring.

[Quietus]

So can that be applied in reverse? Can you make a defense so broken they can't get in? Or out again?

Emphasis is mine. I like this approach - have a minimal resistance to sneaking into the place. Solid stone walls, locks, round the clock guards with Spot and Listen trained, and Alarm spells to alert those present to unauthorized entry. That'll keep the low level thieves out.

The real trick is in ensuring no one can get back out. Create a hostile environment in the vault; constant waves of electricity and cold, preferably exactly 40 points of each, so that after reductions your coins won't be harmed - 1/4 damage from electricity/cold, and metals tend toward hardness 10. If your game rates gold at a different hardness, you want the damage to equal 4x whatever its hardness is. Better yet, store everything in adamantine boxes, then you can go up to 80 damage in each.

Fill the vault with antimagic, and poison fog, and cloudkill. Surround it in walls of force. Fill it with as many lethal things as you can manage without damaging the gold. Essentially, getting into the vault is the easy part. Getting out again is the hard part.

[Krobar]

Well that's the whole point of the exercise. If you don't want to be king, put your stuff in a bag of holding, wear it on your back, and keep adventuring.

Maybe so. But the question was how to protect a vault room... not how to invest your wealth in the kingdom.

[Regitnui]

There's something in Stormwrack called airless water. It's to water-breathing races what water is to air-breathers (which technically makes it not water, I guess, but it's magic). Water-breathers can 'hold their breath', but all you need is a vault filled with airless water, a couple of construct/undead guards who can be in the water without ill-effects, and you're golden (no pun intended).

[Bakeru]

I'd like to suggest the retroactive solution:
Step one, once the first person steals your treasury, track him down, murder him (and everyone, or at least a few of those he loves if you're that kind of character) gruesomely, and take your stuff back.
Step two, repeat step one with any other person daring to steal from you until people get the message.

The danger is that you might not recover the full treasure, but at least you get XP on the side.

(Yes, I made this a very dark shade of blue, because it's only partial sarcasm. It is, at the very least, a viable backup plan.)

[Beldar]

In general, it is skills that make Thieves so scary. They have lots of them and they can be pumped to scary-high levels.
Reasonably optimized, a thief can:
* Defeat any trap (magical or mechanical) via disable device/search/open lock
* Open any lock, (same skills as above).
* Impersonate anybody you trust (Disguise/bluff checks plus some Gather-Information research to find out who to impersonate & what they act like)
* Fake any voucher/passport/token/badge etc (Forgery)
* Sneak past any guard (massive hide/move silently checks). Some have suggested simply having no cover, so they can't hide. But there are hide-in-plain sight options, plus old-timey favorites such as making your own cover via smoke-bombs & similar.

So, while guards, locks, traps etc are still useful (they keep the commoners from wandering in & taking stuff, at least), they aren't much of a barrier to a skilled thief.
Similarly, while anti-magic fields are helpful, they do not bother skill checks & things like alchemical smoke-bombs.

You don't want to try to beat them in their area of strength. That is, don't depend on things that can be defeated by skill checks.
In a few cases this can work (Linked Perception in PH2 is a good example - with it & a bunch of friends, you can get arbitrarily high spot & listen checks: build it into Wondrous Architecture & your guards can see everything), but mostly it won't.

Instead, defeat them by opposing your strength to their weakness (or at least lack of strength).
Thieves are not particularly strong (no stronger than other classes & weaker than some) in the following areas:
* Getting to hard-to-reach places (Deep underground, inside volcanoes, and demi-planes were mentioned and are good examples).
* Finding out secrets (If the populace don't know it, then Gather information can't reveal it. And if you don't talk about it anywhere a person hiding could overhear it, then thieves have no advantage over anyone else in learning it).
* Combat - Assuming a guard can find them & takes steps to prevent backstab, then thieves have no advantage in combat over anyone else. So good tough guards helps.
* Environment manipulation. Stuff like getting through solid stone many feet thick & with no door.
* Covering their tracks. There are many magical ways to find out what happened somewhere. Thieves have no particular advantage in defeating things like that.

Variants of the usual defenses -
* Open Lock won't get you thru a lock that isn't there. For example, you could take a trick out of the Beholder's book and use Blackstone (non-magic stone that goes away briefly under Dispel Magic or Antimagic Fields) to make your 'door'. To anyone not using dispel magic or antimagic, it is a solid stone wall or arbitrary thickness.

* Traps that don't count as traps because they are 'attacks'. An old favorite here is to have some traps (giant rolling stone ball like in Indiana Jones, or even just hail of darts traps) which have no triggers for thieves to detect. Instead they are triggered by a skeleton watching thru a peephole at the far end of a dark hallway (ie, huge penalties to spot it).


So, I'd go for an approach that is primarily
1) Obscure. Security thru obscurity (nobody knows key aspects to it but the mage-king), plus
2) Inaccessible. Stuff that is severely accessibility-impaired (a demi-plane with forbiddance, as previously mentioned, is a good example),
3) Reactive. If you do break in we have many ways set up to find out who did it & come after you.
4) Then throw in all the usual defenses (traps locks etc) to layer the defense. Combining defense types makes it harder for any who come after it & anything you can do to make it harder is to the good.

Some specific ways to do the above (Many have already been mentioned by others, like Teleporting to/from your vault - I will try not to repeat those).
* The idea of a dummy vault is a good one, but eventually news will get out (probably via those who successfully get in & out again) that it is a dummy. Then it servers no further purpose. Unless you have multiple vaults. Say you have a dozen & randomly move the treasure between them. Then at any time, if a thief breaks into one, the treasure is not likely to be there. News will get out that that is a dummy vault & its safety factor then goes up.
* In aid of the above, you can have obscurity *within* your vault. Say a thief breaks into a vault & finds nothing. Perhaps he uses a magic item or a potion or two to detect magic or similar. Finding nothing on those, he eventually gives up & goes away, assuming the vault is a dummy. But there are ways to hide the treasure in plain sight. Maybe the stones he was standing on were the gold, hidden via Polymorph Any Object combined with Nystul's "this isn't magic" aura.
* Or perhaps you leave a bit of real coin in each vault. Considering the cost of defenses, something like 1000 gold may not be that much. This gives you a few benefits. First, you can tell when you've been robbed - the 1000 from your dummy vault is gone. That gives you warning that high-powered thieves are onto you and getting close. You can now take active measures. And, in finding "the gold" (your 1000) they may give up & go away, not finding your paving stones are polymorphed into stone from gold. But it also sets up situations where you can react and hunt them down. Say that some of the coins among the 1000 are Arcane Marked so you can identify them. Say that some of them are permanent "Listening Coin" spells - you've now got an audio-bug onto your thief. (combine all this with Nystul's "this isn't magic" aura as before, of course). There are similar magic ways to capture his image. You can do things like Stone Tell and Speak with Plants (with the fungus you put on the walls for the purpose) to get his description & what was observed about his methods.
All this helps you track him down & whack him, & that gives you deterrence.
* Have a bunch of the stones of your vault room be animated (Minor Servitor gives an intelligence score, so they can have skills like Spot, and if you maximize the spell they can actually be good at spotting) & the room itself be enchanted with Linked Perception. They don't have to do anything but watch & listen, but they will do that very very well. But they could also trigger traps manually. Say each stone is set into an alcove deeper than it needs to be, and in its depth, behind the stone, is a lever that they pull to, say, flood the room with quick-drying cement, or shoot hails of poisoned darts, release poison gas etc. There is no trigger mechanism visible - this 'trap' is an attack by an animated rock using mechanical assistance: not something thieves have a special advantage against.

Then you have the possibility of a more active 'defense' style available:
In most of my campaigns, any king worth the name has, at the gates to his city (thru which all must pass) Wondrous architecture that does at least the following:
Know Protection, Discern Bloodline, and Power Sight
Coming into the city by any means other than that gate is punishable by death, no questions asked.
Anybody coming thru the gate who shows up as powerful (Say, a polymorphed dragon, a doppelganger, or someone of sufficiently high level) is interviewed in a separate room (with the brute squad nearby) & asked what they're up to etc, with appropriate measures taken (with adventurers, this may just be taking down their names & noting they're in the city).
Throw in to that mix the following: Detect Evil, Detect Good, Detect Law, Detect Chaos & Detect Balance. Then if anybody doesn't show up at all, they get interviewed too, since they clearly have a way to block detection spells.
With such a detection system in place, it would be possible to set up a registration system, whereby you eventually have a listing of all the powerful players, including thieves, in town.
If a major robbery happens, you go interview all those who had the capability to do it. If you have the Oomph, you can even require they voluntarily fail their will saves via Detect Lie (for instance) or face combat. That gives investigators a huge advantage in finding the thief (you can at least eliminate whole categories of suspects & whole areas). You cold at least find out that the thief wasn't from here & wasn't helped or seen by anyone local.


Re: the underground Vault idea:
A good idea, with some quibbles.
In D&D the deep underground isn't as safe as it is in real life. In fact there are many denizens down there who could stumble on your vault in a "just passing through" kind of way.
So, while good it isn't perfect (not that you said it was).
In case of underdark dwellers, passing Xorn etc, you'd probably want to add some combat ability (Golems perhaps, or more undead).
And in the case where an underdark passerby just notes it & comes back with an army, you'd want some kind of ability to "bug out" - like having some guards hold off the attackers while others scoop the treasure into a portable hole & teleport away with it.

[Shining Wrath]

At higher levels, create your own demiplane and store most of the wealth there. Just like 7-11 has only $20 in the till after dark, the seneschal only has access to a tiny fraction of your total wealth, just enough to keep things running for a while.

Then populate your demiplane with creatures that will let you and people you designate remove treasure, and kill anyone else that tries. Different varieties of creatures with different key abilities, and they run around in mixed groups. Use the power of combined arms.

[tyckspoon]

Similarly, while anti-magic fields are helpful, they do not bother skill checks & things like alchemical smoke-bombs.



Not completely true- while an AMF or similar effect won't stop a potential thief from attempting a skill check, it can drastically reduce his effectiveness at them, since a significant percentage of his bonuses are likely to come from magic items. An invader in an AMF is much more likely to miss a trap, much more likely to be detected, and far more vulnerable to any traps he does miss or attacks that are launched on him by guards.

[Xervous]

Beldar, what is this "Know Protection" you speak of? I can't find it anywhere.

[Beldar]

I got Know Protections (Wiz and Bard 1st level spell) from an RTF file spell compendium that seems to be 3e (ie, not 3.5). It was downloadable from several D&D resource websites. I forget which one I got it from (I've had it a long time).

The main substance of it was this:
"You learn many of the unusual defenses the target creature has. The spell tells you the creature’s damage reduction, spell resistance, and any resistances or immunity to energy attacks."

It is largely unnecessary if you are doing Power Sight and Discern Bloodline, but kinda nice to throw in.

[CombatOwl]

The solution to this involves a long-term program of murdering every would-be thief in the kingdom while they're still level one. While this will not get rid of the already existing high level thieves, it will eventually reduce their numbers to a manageable level. Do your dynasty a favor, perform executions for petty theft today.

[Telonius]

I got Know Protections (Wiz and Bard 1st level spell) from an RTF file spell compendium that seems to be 3e (ie, not 3.5). It was downloadable from several D&D resource websites. I forget which one I got it from (I've had it a long time).

The main substance of it was this:
"You learn many of the unusual defenses the target creature has. The spell tells you the creature’s damage reduction, spell resistance, and any resistances or immunity to energy attacks."

It is largely unnecessary if you are doing Power Sight and Discern Bloodline, but kinda nice to throw in.

Appears to be from Magic of Faerun.

[Jack Zander]

Set up a thieve's guild. Cut deals with them. As long as they leave any government official (including guards) alone, you'll look the other way. Thieves are typically very territorial, and will force thieves not in their guild to leave town or follow their rules.

Then you can tax the guild for some extra profits :smallamused:

[TuggyNE]

A surprising number of these suggestions seem to be about stopping thieves that are Rogue 20s. That's not necessarily sufficient, since a thief could reasonably have a full casting class (perhaps with a level of Rogue or Factotum in to get the skills). So anything that relies on "oh this vault is hard to find" is going to fail.

Actually, those generally fail in the real world too, against non-magical thieves. "Security through obscurity", anyone?

[Hyde]

A surprising number of these suggestions seem to be about stopping thieves that are Rogue 20s. That's not necessarily sufficient, since a thief could reasonably have a full casting class (perhaps with a level of Rogue or Factotum in to get the skills). So anything that relies on "oh this vault is hard to find" is going to fail.

Actually, those generally fail in the real world too, against non-magical thieves. "Security through obscurity", anyone?

I think half of these have had AMFs and nondetections and mine is a grappling engulfing treasure immune to magic (that allows for SR). Most of these work better against casters than they do a rogue with the darkstalker feat.

[CombatOwl]

A surprising number of these suggestions seem to be about stopping thieves that are Rogue 20s. That's not necessarily sufficient, since a thief could reasonably have a full casting class (perhaps with a level of Rogue or Factotum in to get the skills). So anything that relies on "oh this vault is hard to find" is going to fail.

Actually, those generally fail in the real world too, against non-magical thieves. "Security through obscurity", anyone?

As strange as this sounds, stopping magical intrusion is way less complex than stopping the level 20 thieves with the ridiculously epic skill bonuses. You can enchant stuff to make anti-magic fields to keep people from using magic to get in. There is no magic that can stop a high level rogue from doing a DC 80 escape artist check to secretly climb inside your guard's rectum and let the guard carry them into the vault.

I mean, once we start talking about epic uses of the rogue skills all logic goes out the window and they can perform feats of intrusion far beyond the abilities of any wizard or cleric. Hell, a rogue with a high enough bluff check can just claim to be the king in disguise or something and make a withdrawal, no further questions asked. They could even forge undetectable fake paperwork to make it legit.

[Hyde]

As strange as this sounds, stopping magical intrusion is way less complex than stopping the level 20 thieves with the ridiculously epic skill bonuses. You can enchant stuff to make anti-magic fields to keep people from using magic to get in. There is no magic that can stop a high level rogue from doing a DC 80 escape artist check to secretly climb inside your guard's rectum and let the guard carry them into the vault.

I mean, once we start talking about epic uses of the rogue skills all logic goes out the window and they can perform feats of intrusion far beyond the abilities of any wizard or cleric. Hell, a rogue with a high enough bluff check can just claim to be the king in disguise or something and make a withdrawal, no further questions asked. They could even forge undetectable fake paperwork to make it legit.

Heck, I think at certain levels of UMD and certain interpretations, they could impersonate a specific person to the friggin magical traps.

[Skysaber]

What CR do you want this thing at?

Personally? If my steward mysteriously drops dead in the treasure room and an epic thief emerges from his rectum and squelches over to my treasure pile, I'd like him to be met by appropriate force.

I'd like to see a CR 20 hydra based version of this thing able to make use of any magic items that might be part of the treasure pile (like a spare magic armor and sword, or possibly even a Belt of Battle) able to wipe out an entire thieves' guild in case the guy brought his cohort and followers with him.

But others have asked, and probably have more reasonable needs, so for them perhaps a CR 10 or 14 version?



some amazing stuff...

Wow! Thanks, Beldar, that was exactly what I was looking for! Got any more where those came from?

[Hyde]

Personally? If my steward mysteriously drops dead in the treasure room and an epic thief emerges from his rectum and squelches over to my treasure pile, I'd like him to be met by appropriate force.

I'd like to see a CR 20 hydra based version of this thing able to make use of any magic items that might be part of the treasure pile (like a spare magic armor and sword, or possibly even a Belt of Battle) able to wipe out an entire thieves' guild in case the guy brought his cohort and followers with him.

But others have asked, and probably have more reasonable needs, so for them perhaps a CR 10 or 14 version?

I can probably whip up a few once I get rolling. I can probably find time this weekend, if that's alright.

[Skysaber]

I can probably whip up a few once I get rolling. I can probably find time this weekend, if that's alright.

Not a problem. You are generous to even offer.

Thank you.

[TuggyNE]

As strange as this sounds, stopping magical intrusion is way less complex than stopping the level 20 thieves with the ridiculously epic skill bonuses. You can enchant stuff to make anti-magic fields to keep people from using magic to get in.

Magical intrusion? Yes, probably (other than the already-mentioned wish shuttling, and certain types of minionmancy). Magical guidance/aid? Not so much; a vault with the primary distinguishing feature of "we totally didn't let anyone know we were building this as a decoy for the one over there" is going to be cracked in short order.

[Skysaber]

Magical intrusion? Yes, probably (other than the already-mentioned wish shuttling, and certain types of minionmancy). Magical guidance/aid? Not so much; a vault with the primary distinguishing feature of "we totally didn't let anyone know we were building this as a decoy for the one over there" is going to be cracked in short order.

Really? I'd be curious to see how, as I'd like to hide things and knowing how they'd find them goes a long way toward that.

So presuming basic precautions of lead lining all of the walls/floors/ceilings of the vault building, and Forbiddence up over all of that structure, how do you expect they ought to crack that quickly?

I'd like to know.

As for wish shuffling, it's been mentioned enough times that I am wondering now about making a vault be in the room you're allowed to have in the back of a Juggernaut construct, barding the thing just so I could put armor spikes on it, and enchanting those armor spikes with Spellsword, out of PGtF, keyed to Wish.

Any Wish targeting my vault (and transport does 'target' a location) gets absorbed and can now be used by said vault against those who had designs against it. Do the same with a set of brass knuckles keyed to Miracle you put on one of its six arms.

[TuggyNE]

Really? I'd be curious to see how, as I'd like to hide things and knowing how they'd find them goes a long way toward that.

So presuming basic precautions of lead lining all of the walls/floors/ceilings of the vault building, and Forbiddence up over all of that structure, how do you expect they ought to crack that quickly?

I'd start with divinations that don't target the objects, such as contact other plane and commune, and perhaps move on to powers such as hypercognition or metafaculty (if you know who's involved in constructing/maintaining the place). Tricks like scrying until you're cut off might help as well.


As for wish shuffling, it's been mentioned enough times that I am wondering now about making a vault be in the room you're allowed to have in the back of a Juggernaut construct, barding the thing just so I could put armor spikes on it, and enchanting those armor spikes with Spellsword, out of PGtF, keyed to Wish.

Any Wish targeting my vault (and transport does 'target' a location) gets absorbed and can now be used by said vault against those who had designs against it. Do the same with a set of brass knuckles keyed to Miracle you put on one of its six arms.

No, wish transportation targets the creatures being transported, who get a save against it if unwilling. There is no other sense of targeting that can apply. That doesn't work.

If you do come up with a good way of foiling wish-hopping, the TO community at large would love to hear about it, because as far as I know that's an unsolved problem.

[Skysaber]

If you do come up with a good way of foiling wish-hopping, the TO community at large would love to hear about it, because as far as I know that's an unsolved problem.

Third party there's nothing easier. Dark Ceremonies out of Complete Guide to Drow can at sufficiently high DC change just about anything - including how certain magic works on a global scale.

Wish no longer transports anything.

[TuggyNE]

Third party there's nothing easier. Dark Ceremonies out of Complete Guide to Drow can at sufficiently high DC change just about anything - including how certain magic works on a global scale.

Wish no longer transports anything.

That's … not terribly helpful for general TO, because the usual attitude seems to be that you can find even more of anything in 3rd-party than in WotC, and the challenge just isn't there.

It's a lot like abusing epic spells, except worse.

[Skysaber]

That's … not terribly helpful for general TO, because the usual attitude seems to be that you can find even more of anything in 3rd-party than in WotC, and the challenge just isn't there.

It's a lot like abusing epic spells, except worse.

Hey, if you want to go into a boxing ring with both hands tied behind your back because you like the challenge that's ok with me, but my group has always used third party freely, so as far as my play is concerned the problem is solved.

I know you're not the same way and I'm ok with that.

[Skysaber]

My players pointed out that a vault is a single point, and that monetary handling requires several, along with transport. They also pointed out what several of you have, that the less money stored in one place the less secure it has to be. So they started with 'Armored Car' equivalent, figuring at that level that it did not have to be perfect, only reasonably secure, as it would be dealing with hopefully more limited amounts of cash than the main vaults.

They chose my 'vault in the back of a Juggernaut' concept as a decent place to start. It's already a tough opponent, now all it needs is to carry money securely. Build it so there are no entrances of any sort to the room in the back except a single coin-sized one for pouring money in and out. Then fill entire Vault area with permanent horizontal Walls of Force exactly two inches apart. There is no area within the vault itself that a caster can safely Teleport to, even via Wish. Then have something Fine, like smurf constructs, going in through two inch Passwall holes set to them to go store/retrieve individual coins, however many you want. Build smurf-scale chutes and ladders into the insides of the walls of the Juggernaut itself so they can access every floor created by those walls of force, and you've got a warehouse equivalent set to a really small scale.

Put in something like a thousand smurfs and they can each pick up a coin and move during a single round, so can transfer a thousand gold per round in or out. Two if you let them use both hands. Have the coin chute in or out of the warehouse area lead to an attached basket they can fill or empty, possibly themed as a mouth and throat, that way the construct can close its mouth to shelter the activity going on inside. People don't have to know what is going on, only that the Juggernaut can open its mouth to reveal that gold has appeared or disappeared as needed. Also apply an airlock theme so to open the outer door the inner one must be closed and vice versa, then lead-line the whole interior and apply one of several methods for making it safe from incorporeal foes.

What you have now is basically magic ATM machines on wheels. These can roll around to the various businesses making pick ups and drop offs as needed. Ensure that there is always a limited amount of money inside, so they never become too tempting a target to thieves.

This system safe enough for anything that has to be ready to access by a large number of people. It's not ready for exposure to end users, not having a secure system for avoiding deception by really cleverly disguised thieves wanting to make withdrawals from other people's accounts, but providied it is only carrying coinage to places that have such setups, it works alright.

Put an upper limit of like 5,000gp in the construct at any one time, and even should a thief overcome the juggernaut and loot it, HE is going to feel robbed!

But if he'd rather go out and rob dragons because the threat is lower and the payout better that's fine by me. And it should be easy enough to come up with a similar themed 'waaay too much challenge for too little pay out' system for a shop's strongbox of a few hundred gp.

So hopefully all our thieves can take up dragon hunting as a safer and more rewarding hobby.

[8wGremlin]

I like having an awakend black sand entity, in the treasure vault floor, with some undead guards in there, preferably shadows, or wraiths depending on levels.
add in the Stone Metamorphosis (sickstone) on the entrance to the vaults
You'll have to have undead or constructs to get in