Help For A Pack of 3.5 Newbies

[PrinceOfMadness]

So I've finally managed to convince my group to play a game of 3.5 (yay!) and I'm looking for anything that will make the process of getting into the game easier. Only one of has played straight 3.5 (not me), a couple of us have played 3.5 variants, and the rest have at least played 4e.

Time spent lurking on these boards (among others) has led me to suggest that we limit the game to core 3.5 material (which is to say, books published by Wizards and excluding Dragon Magazine), but I'd be interested to see what optional rules people think are worth taking(in particular, what people think of the traits/flaws system and gestalt characters introduced in Unearthed Arcana), as well as what houserules commonly are implemented.

On a more personal note, I'm already in the process of building a character for the game (which is getting ahead of myself, I know - I don't even know what level we'll be starting at yet!). I'd really like to build a character that specializes in illusion magic, since it's an interesting departure from my traditional glass cannon builds. I'd be interested to see links to resources that discuss how to effectively build and utilize a primary illusionist.

Any and all suggestions are very welcome!

Edited for clarity.

[The Trickster]

So I've finally managed to convince my group to play a game of 3.5 (yay!) and I'm looking for anything that will make the process of getting into the game easier. Only one of has played straight 3.5 (not me), a couple of us have played 3.5 variants, and the rest have at least played 4e.

Time spent lurking on these boards (among others) has led me to suggest that we limit the game to core 3.5 material (which is to say, books published by Wizards and excluding Dragon Magazine), but I'd be interested to see what optional rules people think are worth taking(in particular, what people think of the traits/flaws system and gestalt characters introduced in Unearthed Arcana), as well as what houserules commonly are implemented.

On a more personal note, I'm already in the process of building a character for the game (which is getting ahead of myself, I know - I don't even know what level we'll be starting at yet!). I'd really like to build a character that specializes in illusion magic, since it's an interesting departure from my traditional glass cannon builds. I'd be interested to see links to resources that discuss how to effectively build and utilize a primary illusionist.

Any and all suggestions are very welcome!

Edited for clarity.

Welcome to the fun, fun world of 3.5! :smalltongue:

May I suggest the Beguiler from PH2? They give you all the illusion spells you'll ever need, plus some enchantment spells, a solid amount of skill points, and they make for some fun characters to play (get ready to bluff...a lot). They are one of my favorite classes, by far.

Personally...I wouldn't recommend gestalt characters for a group of new players, but flaws might be alright.

I'll post some other stuff later. :smallbiggrin:

[Gwazi Magnum]

Pretty much all the books are made by wizard, there are few that aren't.

For a new group still learning 3.5 I highly suggest you limit player options to the PHB and DMG. Feel free for the dungeon master to use all three of the monster manuals though for monsters to use, the more variety/options you have in that regard the better, just don't open it for PC building, it will over complicate things at the start.

As for house rules, there are two (and two maybes) off the top of my head:

1. No Multi-class XP penalty, destroy it like the demon it is
2. Once a class skill, always a class skill

The two maybes are

1. No rolling to confirm critical hits. It's not that big a deal and does make a feat or two kind of void, but it makes it one less dice roll for combat so people have an easier time learning and transitioning over.

2. Make Listen, search and spot one skill called Perception, and maybe merge hide and move silently into stealth. It's ridiculous how if most people want to be aware or good at stealth that it's normally costing them all their skill points.

As for the illusionists build.

Sadly I don't use spell casters that often and when I do I never specialize in a certain spell tree. However, I can suggest make sure your spell casting attribute is high, try to keep a Constitution of 14 cause you're squishy enough as it is and remember to try to stay back and play support for the people more suited to charge into head on danger.

[Barsoom]

My suggestion would be to keep to core, except swapping the three least mechanically-competent classes [Paladin, Monk, Fighter] with their Tome of Battle equivalents [Crusader, Swordsage, Warblade]. Makes for a much more fun and balanced game than just core.

[Chaosvii7]

Gestalting is a different approach to playing the game that gives more power to the characters, but with a different system of advancement. In some areas, it can close the gap between more powerful classes and more mundane ones, so it can be good.

Traits and flaws is a good system for giving characters depth and is usually more rewarding than it is limiting, but don't go crazy with flaws. I usually play with two traits and one flaw for a fair power level that still gives me a meaningful character to work with.

[Joe the Rat]

Unless your 3.5 sage is particularly savvy, and wants to walk everyone through builds, keep it simple to start with. Once your group gets some legs under them, then you can start branching out.

Retraining & feat swap should be allowed as you get the feel of the system.

[PrinceOfMadness]

How does one define 'core' 3.5? Is it the PHB I and II + DMG?

@Gwazi Magnum: So Listen, Spot, and Search would all be rolled into Perception...which would, I assume, be WIS based? How would you handle abilities that give penalties to Spot (as an example) while buffing Search? Would the bonuses cancel out?

@Purple Nurple: I hadn't even considered Beguiler because I was so focused on Wizard, but I'll give it a looksee tonight.

[BWR]

Core is the PHB, DMG and MM. Stick to these for a while. Once everyone gets a feeling for how the rules work, you can start adding other stuff.
Get rid of the multi-classing xp penalty, once a class skill always a class skill, but keep the rest of the rules. A good rule of thumb for any new system is to play it the way the book says just to get an idea of how it works. If there are things you guys feel are really grating, fine change it when it comes up, but other than the multiclassing/class-skill thing, I suggest going by RAW to start with

[DMVerdandi]

Well, friend... Don't get too nerf crazy.

I don't know where you got your information, but CORE, as in the phb is the most unbalanced set of rules in the game. All of the melee characters are underwhelming and require system knowledge like you wouldn't believe, just to be able to stand up to CR challenges.

Spellcasters are okay, and only get really unbalanced with someone who actually knows what they are doing, but at the same time, at low levels, they don't get along very well without some knowledge.

Honestly, 3.5 is not an entry level game, and hopefully you guys can get along fine.
Here is the thing, limiting options is not going to make this game easier, but much harder. Each update makes the player characters more apt to surviving. 3.5 in the beginning is far less balanced than 3.5 in the end.

Keep all options open, Encourage your players to read online handbooks, and honestly, gestalt is totally a good idea. Especially at low levels. Remember, the game isn't pvp, it is against monsters, and low level 3.5 is hard as heck.

More options = easier time = less Total party kills= more opportunities to roleplay and engage in combat effectively = more fun.

[Regitnui]

Hey, nice to know there's someone else new out there.:smile:

Right now, I'm getting started on a new campaign, and these are the books I'm using: PHB, DMG, MMI-V. It's an Eberron campaign, so I'm also using pretty much all of those splatbooks: Eberron Campaign Setting, Five Nations, Explorer's Handbook, Races of Eberron, etc.

The players are using Races of Eberron. PHB, and Player's Guide to Eberron. I expect them to know how their respective characters work, so I can concentrate on the NPCs. I also find that not knowing everything makes them role-play better.

[ericp65]

Core is the PHB, DMG and MM. Stick to these for a while. Once everyone gets a feeling for how the rules work, you can start adding other stuff.
Get rid of the multi-classing xp penalty, once a class skill always a class skill, but keep the rest of the rules. A good rule of thumb for any new system is to play it the way the book says just to get an idea of how it works. If there are things you guys feel are really grating, fine change it when it comes up, but other than the multiclassing/class-skill thing, I suggest going by RAW to start with

This is probably the best advice for getting started with 3.5e, so I heartily support it!

[Gwazi Magnum]

How does one define 'core' 3.5? Is it the PHB I and II + DMG?

@Gwazi Magnum: So Listen, Spot, and Search would all be rolled into Perception...which would, I assume, be WIS based? How would you handle abilities that give penalties to Spot (as an example) while buffing Search? Would the bonuses cancel out?

Core = PHB1, MM & DMG

@Perception question

Yes I would make it WIS based.

I would go one of two approaches here depending on the group...

1. The more simple/new guy friendly way, roll it into one, so you if you have -2 to spot but +2 to search it will even out.

2. The more realistic way, make them individual modifiers. This is what I'd probably use for a group that's both more experienced with d&d and doesn't mind the extra numbers.

Basically you keep track of things separately such as "I have a -2 to perception when I'm just trying to spot something not on purpose, but +2 to perception when I'm actively looking".

Note: No matter which variant you go, stuff that buffs both spot and listen do NOT double up. So Elves gain a +2 bonus to Perception, not +4 or +6.

[PrinceOfMadness]

So we're getting to the point where everyone is starting to pick what they want to play as, and we've hit something of a rut. One of our players really likes to play 'Ironman' characters (basically loves having automatons and walking around in a giant suit of mechanical genius). Problem is, I can't find anything that meets this criteria within 3.5 Is there a class, race, or miscellaneous that I'm missing I can direct him to? He also wants to play something that can tank and still deal appreciable damage.

[RunicLGB]

I wouldn't recommend this for newbies but a Warforged Artificer would be the way to go.

Essentially you would be Ironman in the sense of being a living machine, with incredible crafting skill for magical items, and the ability to evetually create your own personal army of homunculi and constructs.

I can't stress how bad this is for newbies though. Artificer is one of if not the most complex class in the system. Artificer is in Ebberon campaign setting, as are Warforged (which can also be found in Monstrous Manual III and Races of Ebberon).

[Yael]

Two words: Sunless Citadel.

Also, you should be aware that they must read the Player's Handbook at least once, the rules are well explained and they should play core.

Stick to core and do not meld ToB, MoI, XPH and else, try to make them to read PHB and stick to it like the momma book it is.

Tell them the importance of the roles of a party. Give them restrictions and else.

I read up there that you should take away Spot, Listen and Search and meld them into Perception. Don't do it, if you want so, play Pathfinder instead.

They should know what skill points are, what do they cost, how they are used and, lastly, be cool. Don't be that strict. If they mess up, help them.

Oh, one final thing.

Explain what metagame is and tell them to do not do it.

[PrinceOfMadness]

@UrashimaJamez: I'm not the one DM'ing the game, I'm just trying to collect what information I can on the 3.5 system before we leap in. I'm passing on most of the advice in this thread to the guy who IS DM'ing, though.

I don't believe anyone except me has started actually building characters yet and most of my character building has been straight out of PHBI and II. I'll admit that I've been eyeballing the whisper gnome in Races of Stone and the Traits and Flaws in Unearthed Arcana, however.

@RunicLGB: Yeah, I was afraid of that. He wants to play something simple, tanky, with moderate-to-high damage more than he wants to be Ironman, but that desire for Ironman is still there. He might be able to work something out with the DM though.

[TuggyNE]

Oh, one final thing.

Explain what metagame is and tell them to do not do it.

I'd agree with this except that "metagaming" is not as well-defined as one might like, and some forms are a necessary evil, especially for newbies. For example, avoiding party friction is probably a good idea, even if it requires a bit of metagame-based adjustment of your characters' ideas or personality.

[RunicLGB]

I'd agree with this except that "metagaming" is not as well-defined as one might like, and some forms are a necessary evil, especially for newbies. For example, avoiding party friction is probably a good idea, even if it requires a bit of metagame-based adjustment of your characters' ideas or personality.

That's the DMG's listed version of good metagaming actually. :smallbiggrin:

When I think of Metagaming in negative context its usually because of the Abuse of Player Knowledge. You might not think that newbies would have much of this, but it can crop up quick.

[KillingAScarab]

As RunicLGB says, Warforged may be something to consider for the race of your friend's character. If your friend chose to play one, the character would not be a person in a suit, but a living machine, which has a specific set of feats available to them which may be used to represent how it was constructed, but also upgrades. The ones reflecting construction would be ones taken at 1st level, such as unarmored body (http://dndtools.eu/feats/races-of-eberron--10/unarmored-body--3004/). The ones which might reflect upgrades must be taken later, such as shocking fist (http://dndtools.eu/feats/players-guide-to-eberron--13/shocking-fist--2615/). They also get some of the benefits (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_livingconstructsubtype&alpha) most constructs have.

Warforged come with some downsides, however. One of them, I have already touched upon; normally, they have a sort of armor built into them and you have to decide at character creation whether or not you would rather have it removed or replaced with different built-in armor. This is something which takes a bit of foresight to figure out what you'll be happy with; the safest route would be to use the character's 1st level feat to get unarmored body and ensure the character can choose to wear (or not wear) whatever armor they need.

Another downside: normal healing spells (cure ADJECTIVE wounds) are not as effective upon them. They heal half as many hit points from those spells, and they don't heal at all naturally. There is a line of "repair" spells (repair ADJECTIVE damage) which are available to sorcerers and wizards for fixing constructs which works on them just fine, but they aren't in the core rulebooks. Complete Arcane has them, but they're almost identical to the cure spells a cleric gets; replace the spell school of conjuration (healing) with transmutation and replace the target of creature touched with construct touched. It would be a shift from the usual party dynamic, though, possibly making one of the other characters into their personal magical battle mechanic.

[TuggyNE]

When I think of Metagaming in negative context its usually because of the Abuse of Player Knowledge. You might not think that newbies would have much of this, but it can crop up quick.

Indeed. But generally speaking, "abuse" of something means there's legitimate uses too, which definitely applies in this case. So it's not just "oh metagaming is RONG", that's far too simplistic.

[Corundum Dragon]

MACHINIST
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=262484
Clockwork armor