[PF] Kobolds (5 RP)?!

[Chained Birds]

Kobold (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/featured-races/arg-kobold)

Why do these guys suck so much?

Did Paizo hate the Pun-Pun thing so much?

I really did not think much about how terrible these guys are until the SRD started posting all the races RP points...

I'm just wondering if these guys are good for anything other than fodder or a class that would do far better with any other race?

[Rhynn]

Why do these guys suck so much?

Why should they be "balanced" ? They're still monsters first, surely. And they're weak, scrawny, small, slow, stupid, kind of pathetic monsters, at that. That's what kobolds are, ridiculous post-3E draconic might notwithstanding.

Not every choice needs to be equal, especially when it's a bit of an "outside" coice.

[Chained Birds]

Why should they be "balanced" ? They're still monsters first, surely. And they're weak, scrawny, small, slow, stupid, kind of pathetic monsters, at that. That's what kobolds are, ridiculous post-3E draconic might notwithstanding.

Not every choice needs to be equal, especially when it's a bit of an "outside" coice.

But aren't goblins in the same category of "Useless bunch" as Kobolds? Though Goblins have better stats and a lot more support. They even have the Roll With It feat, which is one of the best single feats in PF.

What do Kobolds have? Nothing...

[GoatBoy]

It's a side-effect of the RP system. Kobolds didn't get a gross stat boost like every other race in Pathfinder (I can't think of a mental stat that kobolds exemplify, can you?). They were pretty lousy in 3.5 too, until Races of the Dragon came out.

At least it's not as bad as the early playtest for the RP system, where every core race trait was shoehorned into having them all add up to exactly 10 RP. A +2 bonus to one skill is NOT as potent as a +1 to natural armor or all saves. I'm really glad they figured that out and accepted that not all core races are on perfectly equal footing.

[Joe the Rat]

Overcompensation for the whole dragon-phylum business?

Historically Kobolds were the bottom rung humanoid. Paizo may be trying to reset the clock in that regard.

I suppose you could make the argument for -LA...

[Slipperychicken]

Isn't it Kobolds' purpose to be an extremely weak intelligent monster for level 1 adventurers to handily defeat?


They aren't dumb, though. The only difference in mental stats is they don't get the +2 to a stat of choice. This is part of what makes Tucker's Kobolds so awesome: Kobolds, although they have awful stats, can still be hammered into an effective fighting force through good strategy.

[Blyte]

I really like the kobold sorcerer bloodline (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/bloodlines/bloodlines-from-paizo/racial-bloodlines/kobold-bloodline-sorcerer-kobold)

the trap rune is pretty neato.

I actually asked to bring in a kobold in my king maker game, but was denied :smallconfused:

I was going to play a kobold master summoner with eldritch heritage kobold so I could make rune traps.

[Chained Birds]

I really like the kobold sorcerer bloodline (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/bloodlines/bloodlines-from-paizo/racial-bloodlines/kobold-bloodline-sorcerer-kobold)

the trap rune is pretty neato.

I actually asked to bring in a kobold in my king maker game, but was denied :smallconfused:

I was going to play a kobold master summoner with eldritch heritage kobold so I could make rune traps.

I did check that out. It is really too bad that all the rest of the bloodline is just... Just terrible. Especially that capstone of +5 to Acrobatics... Yeh...:smallannoyed:

As an Eldritch Heritage, the trap ability is fine. Maybe some Trap Master character using PF Cryptic. But then again, can you just overlook the whole Kobold thing entirely as Eldritch Heritage seems to bypass the whole "Need to be Kobold" thing? Or is being a Kobold still required?

-----

I really do like Kobolds, which is why I'm so upset by all these worthless options for the race. At least other races have their Ability Scores or at least 1 unique-ish aspect to them.

[Alefiend]

I did check that out. It is really too bad that all the rest of the bloodline is just... Just terrible. Especially that capstone of +5 to Acrobatics... Yeh...:smallannoyed:

Are you sure you checked it out completely? Because that capstone includes a +5 to Reflex saves, as well as the ability to breathe while in the earth using your Earth Glide power. Neither of those suck.

I wouldn't argue that this is an especially powerful or must-have bloodline, but credit where credit's due—how else would you make a kobold bloodline that isn't focused on the dragon heritage?

[GoatBoy]

The obvious solution to the Kobold woes is to grab a copy of Kobolds Ate My Baby and allow your DM to let you roll for one of the random edges.

"Troll Blood - One of your ancestors was a bit of a swinger. You have the wondrous ability to regenerate damage. You can spend 1 full turn (doing nothing else), to lick your wounds and gain 2 HITS."

And of course, there's Bark Like A Kobold.

[Keneth]

Well, goblins are sort of the poster monsters of Pathfinder, so it makes sense they'd get a bit more love, but really the only thing that makes kobolds weaker is their stat bonuses. I don't particularly hate that they're a bit weaker, certainly not after all the 3.5 kobold shenanigans, but making an advanced kobold race if a player wanted to play one is really as simple as giving their stat mods a little boost. At 8 RP they become pretty standard fare.

[Spuddles]

they're weak, scrawny, small, slow, stupid, kind of pathetic monsters, at that.

They're as fast as any man and as smart as 5 out of 6 humans.

[BWR]

Kobolds are supposed to be jokes (Tucker's (http://www.tuckerskobolds.com/) and those nasty elites in Baldur's Gate not withstanding).
Just don't get started on xvarts.

[Baroncognito]

I suppose you could make the argument for -LA...

I did that in a 3.5 game. But I wouldn't do that anymore.

I prefer point-buy to rolling for stats these days, so if everyone else was at a 20 point buy, I'd put someone playing a kobold on a 25 point buy.

[Slipperychicken]

They're as fast as any man and as smart as 5 out of 6 humans.

And in 3.5, they were exactly as smart, wise, and charismatic as any man.

[nyarlathotep]

Goblins of Golarion has already come out Kobolds of Golarion has yet to be published. That is literally the entire answer.

[Chained Birds]

Goblins of Golarion has already come out Kobolds of Golarion has yet to be published. That is literally the entire answer.

I hope this day will come...

Really, I'm just looking for an Archetype, Feat, or anything that only a Kobold can do, that is either really nifty looking or might be fun to build around. Until that day...



Are you sure you checked it out completely? Because that capstone includes a +5 to Reflex saves, as well as the ability to breathe while in the earth using your Earth Glide power. Neither of those suck.

I wouldn't argue that this is an especially powerful or must-have bloodline, but credit where credit's due—how else would you make a kobold bloodline that isn't focused on the dragon heritage?

Admittedly, I saw a +5 and immediately stopped paying attention. :smallredface:

Though I would have probably made the focus towards more powerful trap construction for those last two abilities. I mean, the flavor of Kobolds is there, but the Earth Glide + Breathing in the Earth seems a bit off to me. I do like how they can sacrifice spells to boost their companions (with limitations but okay), that they can place a bunch of Magic Traps everywhere, and even the trap sense. I just feel like they could have gone further...

[Blyte]

I like the bloodline a lot. I like how it tries to bring out their tunnel rat ambusher lot in life they have adopted, and ignores the (overdone) draconic heritage thing.

Seems like it would be fun to play, and also great for an NPC.

I hope that it's just a taste of the kobold love to come.

[Saidoro]

Kobolds are one of my favorite arguments against the RP system, on account of the fact that they're just as playable as the 15 point aasimars and almost as playable as the 9 point hobgoblins. Don't look at the point value, look at what they actually do, kobolds are by no means a strong race but they are also by no means a worthless one.

[Spuddles]

Kobolds are one of my favorite arguments against the RP system, on account of the fact that they're just as playable as the 15 point aasimars and almost as playable as the 9 point hobgoblins. Don't look at the point value, look at what they actually do, kobolds are by no means a strong race but they are also by no means a worthless one.

That just speaks to the strength of the class you use.

[Khantin]

Really, I'm just looking for an Archetype, Feat, or anything that only a Kobold can do, that is either really nifty looking or might be fun to build around.
Kobolds are the only ones who meet the requirements to use the only paizo weapon with reach that is a light weapon.

Reach plus weapon finesse is interesting for a dex based battlefield controller.

[Saidoro]

That just speaks to the strength of the class you use.
No, it really doesn't. Kobolds can make competent but unimpressive wizards magus's and bards among a fair number of other options. In no cases are they the best choice, but they can do alright. Aasimar is in a similar boat, you can make some classes competently with them(cleric, sorcerer, etc) but they will never be the best choice for anything. You can even choose a class that either of them will be competent at like cleric and have the kobold turn out more powerful than the aasimar: an enabler or buffer doesn't really care about their primary casting stat as much as most and the +3 to AC from being a kobold can really pay off when delivering those touch range buffs. Kobolds have a few options they can't effectively exploit, anything strength-based for example, but we don't say dwarves are underpowered because they make poor sorcerers.

[nyarlathotep]

I hope this day will come...

Really, I'm just looking for an Archetype, Feat, or anything that only a Kobold can do, that is either really nifty looking or might be fun to build around. Until that day...


I have some good news for you (http://paizo.com/products/btpy8ux0?Pathfinder-Player-Companion-Kobolds-of-Golarion).

[Larkas]

For what is worth, RoD Kobold changes apply perfectly to PF's Kobold, and bring them up to roughly 10 RP.

[Spuddles]

No, it really doesn't. Kobolds can make competent but unimpressive wizards magus's and bards among a fair number of other options. In no cases are they the best choice, but they can do alright. Aasimar is in a similar boat, you can make some classes competently with them(cleric, sorcerer, etc) but they will never be the best choice for anything. You can even choose a class that either of them will be competent at like cleric and have the kobold turn out more powerful than the aasimar: an enabler or buffer doesn't really care about their primary casting stat as much as most and the +3 to AC from being a kobold can really pay off when delivering those touch range buffs. Kobolds have a few options they can't effectively exploit, anything strength-based for example, but we don't say dwarves are underpowered because they make poor sorcerers.

Exactly. It doesn't matter a whole lot what your race is when the chassis of your build is t2 or t1. Spells > all.

[Saidoro]

Exactly. It doesn't matter a whole lot what your race is when the chassis of your build is t2 or t1. Spells > all.
...While true, that is in no way what I was saying. A kobold could make a perfectly competent rogue or gunslinger or whatever as well. I chose casting classes because I mostly play casting classes and they tend to be the first things I think of.
Perhaps I should be a bit clearer:
The 5 RP Kobold is actually a reasonably powerful race when in a class that plays to its strengths. The 15 RP Aasimar is only barely a reasonably powerful race even when in classes that play to its strengths. From this I conclude that the number of RP a race possesses is not actually indicative of its power.(Granted, kobold still needs a boost but the same could be said about the aasimar or tengu or really most things that aren't human.)

[Greenish]

Why should they be "balanced" ? They're still monsters first, surely. And they're weak, scrawny, small, slow, stupid, kind of pathetic monsters, at that. That's what kobolds are, ridiculous post-3E draconic might notwithstanding.

Not every choice needs to be equal, especially when it's a bit of an "outside" coice.And that, ladies and gentlemen, is the thinking that brought us the PF Vow of Poverty.

[Chained Birds]

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is the thinking that brought us the PF Vow of Poverty.

At least 3.5 VoP was a pretty looking trap. I'b be flabbergasted if I saw a non-joke thread on these forums about how to make PF version VoP not so OP!

Both Newbs and Noobs avoid it.

[CombatOwl]

Who cares about Kobolds? Humans are still the master race of d&d, as they have always been. Nothing beats a free feat of your own choosing and a huge pile of skill points.

And, oh my god, the Human sorcerer favored class bonus...

Seriously, kobolds never should have even been a PC race. Even more annoying than goblins.

[Saidoro]

Who cares about Kobolds? Humans are still the master race of d&d, as they have always been. Nothing beats a free feat of your own choosing and a huge pile of skill points.

And, oh my god, the Human sorcerer favored class bonus...

Seriously, kobolds never should have even been a PC race. Even more annoying than goblins.
There are a few other races worth playing from a mechanical standpoint: Ifrits, tieflings, dwarves, halflings, gnomes, ratfolk, oreads and merfolk all have builds in which they can noticeably outperform humans.(Also: Half-elfs iff you're playing summoners or abusing paragon surge and strix in certain games.)

That being said, I strongly disagree with you about kobolds. I've never been particularly interested in playing one but there are people who are and they should have that option without intentionally gimping themselves.(And personally, gnomes annoy me far more than kobolds or goblins ever have. Too much contamination from Dragonlance.)

[RFLS]

Seriously, kobolds never should have even been a PC race. Even more annoying than goblins.

Yeah, I really think we should inflict one person's opinion about what constitutes a reasonable player race on everyone else.

[Keneth]

I've never been particularly interested in playing one but there are people who are and they should have that option without intentionally gimping themselves.

Why should they, exactly? :smallconfused: If you want to play a monster race, that's fine, you have that option. But that doesn't make you in any way entitled to being equally powerful as other races. That's like saying you should get an extra feat just because you decided to take Endurance. If you want to play a weak race, you're gonna have weak stats, otherwise there's no point in races having stats at all.

[CIDE]

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is the thinking that brought us the PF Vow of Poverty.

The even-****tier-than-3.5 Vow of Poverty?

[VeisuItaTyhjyys]

Kobolds are the only ones who meet the requirements to use the only paizo weapon with reach that is a light weapon.

Reach plus weapon finesse is interesting for a dex based battlefield controller.

Combine that with Kobolds' armor class shenanigans and you can make a pretty unstoppable bulwark of defense, at least until the levels where nothing mundane matters any more.

[Spuddles]

Why should they, exactly? :smallconfused: If you want to play a monster race, that's fine, you have that option. But that doesn't make you in any way entitled to being equally powerful as other races. That's like saying you should get an extra feat just because you decided to take Endurance. If you want to play a weak race, you're gonna have weak stats, otherwise there's no point in races having stats at all.

I present to you the elements that make SKR a less than steller game designer.


Combine that with Kobolds' armor class shenanigans and you can make a pretty unstoppable bulwark of defense, at least until the levels where nothing mundane matters any more.

Kobold AC shenanigans? What are those?

[StreamOfTheSky]

"Unstoppable" bulwark of defense is an oxymoron.

I'm actually surprised Kobolds are not fewer RP...then again the entire RP system is a joke anyway. Hell, Oread is listed as 6 RP...they are NOT a weak race, not even close!

EDIT: Kobolds could have merely been +2 dex, -2 str. Or +2 dex, -2 str and con, and been a clearly weak race in a system where most races have a net +2. But they're still much worse than that. Weak races are fine, but there's no need to make them that ridiculously underpowered.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Kobold AC shenanigans? What are those?

That's where you pretend that:

a) AC is a good defense compared to having miss chance and high saves

b) You win fights by being almost as hopeless to harm as you are hopeless of harming the enemies

And then make a Kobold "tank" that uses a tower shield and armor (whatever the optimal armor bonus + max dex sum that you can afford at a given level is) and combines it with kobold's whopping +1 natural armor bonus and +1 size mod to AC. To get a marginally higher AC than a human similarly gimping himself. You also fight defensively and combat expertise for good measure, because your own offense can always stand to be even more worthless.

[Bhaakon]

I present to you the elements that make SKR a less than steller game designer.

He has problems, but I don't think this is an example of one. If you have a race designed to be fodder for level 1 groups to stomp on, then almost by definition they should be an underpowered race. I think it's bad game designed when the core races are unbalanced, but non-core/monster races probably should be a bit outside the core race baseline.

The problem, really, is that they decided to release all these races in a core-line product and didn't clearly label which ones were designed to be PCs and which ones were meant to be NPCs/play at your own risk race (you can generally tell by their RP totals, but it's not explicitly stated).

[Keneth]

"Unstoppable" bulwark of defense is an oxymoron.

It's not an oxymoron, but it is silly. "Unstoppable" implies the defense is used to "push" ahead in combat (not uncommon), but then "of defense" redundantly affirms the purely defensive meaning of "bulwark". :smallbiggrin:

[VeisuItaTyhjyys]

Basically what StreamOfTheSky said, but with less sarcasm and more "Improved Natural Armor." It's really only viable at low levels and really falls apart when it falls apart, though.


That's where you pretend that:

a) AC is a good defense compared to having miss chance and high saves

b) You win fights by being almost as hopeless to harm as you are hopeless of harming the enemies
I think your eye may have skipped over "at least until the levels where nothing mundane matters any more." Above, like, level five, one should obviously be a full caster. At level three, though, I'd rather have an AC of 33 all day long than spend like ten minutes a day with a miss chance.

EDIT: "Unstoppable" is a silly word to have used, given that there is no figurative component to our language and thus the only possible use of the word is that to refer to something whose forward motion cannot be halted.

[StreamOfTheSky]

It's never viable, because all you're good for is having an AC that still gets hit 5% of the time anyway. That's *if* foes don't just ignore you completely to kill your party, which they likely will.

Wasting 1/4 of the party members on a guy who can't kill things, in fact, would make (other) PC fatalities much more likely to happen because the enemies are alive for longer to do more damage.

[VeisuItaTyhjyys]

Well, if we assume it's totally incapable of killing anything and every enemy ignores it, that's certainly true. I guess we'll agree to disagree.

[Larkas]

Unstoppable? I think it was meant to be "unmovable".

[StreamOfTheSky]

Unstoppable? I think it was meant to be "unmovable".

Not even true there. Armor, nat armor, and tower shield all are not adding to CMD. The kobold likely is quite easy to move. :smallsmile:

[Spuddles]

Wait, +3 armor counts as shenanigans? Bwuh? -4 str isn't worth it for that, especially at low levels! At least if you want to be melee. I suppose a small utility cleric in the front lines to distract for a couple rounds of combat could work.

Kobold just isn't worth it, unless you really want to play as a scaly dog creature.

[Keneth]

Unstoppable? I think it was meant to be "unmovable".

I think "unyielding" would be a better word, or maybe "unrelenting". Or even "inexorable" if you're big on SAT words. :smallbiggrin:

[Chained Birds]

I wonder if any creature with a natural tail (Like Tieflings or Ratfolk) can have access to those Kobold Tail Attachments? I mean, as least maybe Vanara, who are essentially Monkey People with a useful tail.

[PlusSixPelican]

The obvious solution to the Kobold woes is to grab a copy of Kobolds Ate My Baby and allow your DM to let you roll for one of the random edges.

"Troll Blood - One of your ancestors was a bit of a swinger. You have the wondrous ability to regenerate damage. You can spend 1 full turn (doing nothing else), to lick your wounds and gain 2 HITS."

And of course, there's Bark Like A Kobold.

Kobolds Ate My Baby! <3

Anyways, I for one love Kobolds. I love the flavor, I love the smallness, I like how silly they can be, I like the draconic heritage thing, all of it. I just want to huggle them and pat their heads. I think my brain registers them as stuffed animals and responds accordingly.

I am a bit upset that Pathfinder made them terribad, but people are probably going to bring in the compatible 3.X stuff to make them fit in with everyone else in their games anyways.

There should be a plush Kobold. Waaaaaaannnnt.

[Saidoro]

Wait, +3 armor counts as shenanigans? Bwuh? -4 str isn't worth it for that, especially at low levels! At least if you want to be melee. I suppose a small utility cleric in the front lines to distract for a couple rounds of combat could work.

Kobold just isn't worth it, unless you really want to play as a scaly dog creature.
There are plenty of classes for which strength simply is not relevant to character power, even at low levels.

[Joe the Rat]

I'd say "indefatigable" bulwark, but they have than CON penalty...

Fluff-wise, you'd think they'd make obscene Rogues, but they don't seem to work out well in that regard (well, no better than any other Small creature).


Wait, +3 armor counts as shenanigans? Bwuh? -4 str isn't worth it for that, especially at low levels! At least if you want to be melee. I suppose a small utility cleric in the front lines to distract for a couple rounds of combat could work.

Kobold just isn't worth it, unless you really want to play as a scaly dog creature.

If you want scaly dog creature, you're probably barking up the wrong edition/subforum. The pointy pinnae totally make the look, biology be hanged.


Kobolds Ate My Baby! <3

Anyways, I for one love Kobolds. I love the flavor, I love the smallness, I like how silly they can be, I like the draconic heritage thing, all of it. I just want to huggle them and pat their heads. I think my brain registers them as stuffed animals and responds accordingly. Welcome to the club.

[Chained Birds]

Kobolds Ate My Baby! <3

Anyways, I for one love Kobolds. I love the flavor, I love the smallness, I like how silly they can be, I like the draconic heritage thing, all of it. I just want to huggle them and pat their heads. I think my brain registers them as stuffed animals and responds accordingly.

I think might be confusing Kobolds with Cutebolds? :smallconfused:
Kobold
http://images.epilogue.net/users/weeman/KOBOLD_CLASSES_CJC_FI.jpg
Cutebold
http://tgchan.org/kusaba/tg/src/124623245142.jpg

[otakumick]

I think the Kobolds are cute and the cutebolds are creepy... but that might just be me *shrugs*

[VeisuItaTyhjyys]

"Unyielding" might be the wrong word, since one on horseback might yield to pedestrians; "Unrelenting" isn't the right word because the character could be good aligned, and therefor give in to kindness or compassion; "Inexorable" is wrong because a DM can very easily prevent such a character by banning Kobolds; "Indefatigable" is wrong because AC in no way prevents fatigue.

Did I miss any?

[Joe the Rat]

"Unyielding" might be the wrong word, since one on horseback might yield to pedestrians; "Unrelenting" isn't the right word because the character could be good aligned, and therefor give in to kindness or compassion; "Inexorable" is wrong because a DM can very easily prevent such a character by banning Kobolds; "Indefatigable" is wrong because AC in no way prevents fatigue.

Did I miss any?
Inconceivable? Though I'm not sure it means what I think it means

[VeisuItaTyhjyys]

Obviously, the character can be conceived. How else would he be born? Jeez.

[otakumick]

Obviously, the character can be conceived. How else would he be born? Jeez.

somebody was just cloning around obviously... it seems like rum could have something to do with it... or a nice assassin :p

[VanIsleKnight]

I'm currently in a campaign with a substantially powerful group of 9th level characters, with middling levels of optimization. So far the main opponent has been kobolds. We aren't afraid of the ones that are meant to be easy fights, and we did rather well against a fight that was supposed to hard enough for us to run away from. I think the DM has fudged things in our favour slightly though, because he doesn't want his hard work to go to waste so we have some Plot Armour to go through.

One of us has died, but he got better without me having to revive him. Something's happening with him, not sure what, but it was Plot related.

That being said, there was one kobold mini-boss fight that happened which was -much- more difficult, and scary, than the actual boss fight with a dragon later on. We then had to fight 5 more previously established stronger versions of that mini-boss who only became stronger when we killed each of them in turn.

All of that aside, we would have died 1000 times over from the traps those "stupid" kobolds set if we hadn't have had an earth elemental. Kobolds (or any other 'monster' used by the DM) is only as stupid, weak, or pointless as the DM allows them to be. He made them a legitimate threat while maintaining their 'culture' and style.

In short, kobolds are fine. Individually they aren't that great, nor are they meant to be.

[Vknight]

Kobolds 5RP
The RP system has major problems but I like it for the basic idea of making your own races for NPC's and figuring out what there CR would be at Lvl 1. With lots of abilities be really strong like the Drow etc.

Ok lets start off

Tuckers Kobolds can be done with any small sized monster.... First and foremost is that. Anything small that can be smart can do that

The Dragon silliness that Kobolds had in 3.X was there main redeeming feature.

Lets talk game stats not fluff. If we get all hard worked on fluff then we can not do the math
It is innate that some things are really weak.
And kobolds fall into the category of the weakest of the weak.
So there stats represent that.
With the correct application of skill, development etc
They can become better but it should still show that though a Kobold is really good he's suffering from minor fall back from his birthright

Also I can never get why people like Kobolds. Goblins were always cooler. From the natural insanity, the more tribal look, that they didn't just set traps but warning devices, they were not easily cow-eyed to a giant flying lizard[P.S. Dragons are awesome]
When I think Goblin traps I think bones that break under your heel and spinning doors, a fun house made by a group of mad men
When I think kobolds I think narrow corridors and dungeon crawls. Something that bores me to no end

[Saidoro]

Kobolds 5RP
The RP system has major problems but I like it for the basic idea of making your own races for NPC's and figuring out what there CR would be at Lvl 1. With lots of abilities be really strong like the Drow etc.
Drow really aren't that powerful(Unless you're talking about drow nobles which you shouldn't be). More to the point, I disagree with your statement about the RP system being useful. Maybe for someone without even the slightest grasp of how the game functions, but then they'd be just as likely to accidentally create something entirely overpowered or completely worthless and become convinced that it's balanced because of its point value.

Tuckers Kobolds can be done with any small sized monster.... First and foremost is that. Anything small that can be smart can do that
True enough, but trapmaking is rather more iconic of kobolds than anything else. Furthermore, Tucker's Kobolds are entirely irrelevant to this discussion because that is an NPC tactic, not a PC one. NPCs can already have any stats the GM wants to give them so racial modifiers are far less significant there.

Lets talk game stats not fluff. If we get all hard worked on fluff then we can not do the math
We have been talking about game mechanics.

It is innate that some things are really weak.
Having some things be innately weaker that others is poor game design. (And did you mean given?)

And kobolds fall into the category of the weakest of the weak.
So there stats represent that.
The first varies by game world but the second is most definitely false.

With the correct application of skill, development etc
They can become better but it should still show that though a Kobold is really good he's suffering from minor fall back from his birthright
Why should one race be inherently weaker than another? What does that add to the story being told or the world being simulated?

[Bhaakon]

Why should one race be inherently weaker than another? What does that add to the story being told or the world being simulated?

Because divorcing mechanics and fluff completely threatens verisimilitude. They must inform one another to work successfully, which, given that the later is copyrightable and the former isn't in the case of Pathfinder, means that the later will often win.

In virtually every fantasy world (Golarion included) kobolds live in the same regions as the core races, with the same access to resources, yet fail to establish cities, nations, or civilizations much beyond semi-nomadic bronze age clans. Based on the way kobolds are routinely presented, it would be strange if they weren't at some sort of intrinsic disadvantage (the same with goblins, frankly, but Paizo decided to go another way with them because they're the company mascot).

[Squirrel_Dude]

Kobolds have always been a joke. It wasn't until dragonwraught that they were even remotely respectable. I'm not saying that it's good to have a joke playable race, but that this isn't a situation unique to Pathfinder.


But aren't goblins in the same category of "Useless bunch" as Kobolds? Though Goblins have better stats and a lot more support. They even have the Roll With It feat, which is one of the best single feats in PF.

Goblins get played for their stealth capabilities. They have the potential to have a +18 (+4 size, +4 goblin, +1 rank, +3 trained, +6 dex) stealth modifier at level 1. It's not the only thing going on with them, but it's damn nice.

[nyarlathotep]

Yeah goblins also have their race specific book out giving a host of nice feats and abilities, though it used to also give them by far the best favored class bonuses until it was overwritten by the advanced races guide.

[Vknight]

Kobolds have always been a joke. It wasn't until dragonwraught that they were even remotely respectable. I'm not saying that it's good to have a joke playable race, but that this isn't a situation unique to Pathfinder.

Goblins get played for their stealth capabilities. They have the potential to have a +18 (+4 size, +4 goblin, +1 rank, +3 trained, +6 dex) stealth modifier at level 1. It's not the only thing going on with them, but it's damn nice.

Exactly when people complain that Kobold were at a point good to play or shouldn't be so bad they always go to Dragonwraught.
I remember the Gnome vs. Kobold thread. And the Kobold people wanted them to have Dragonwrought, well the Gnomes could not have Whisper Gnomes
It is nit picky and bother me



More to the point, I disagree with your statement about the RP system being useful. Maybe for someone without even the slightest grasp of how the game functions, but then they'd be just as likely to accidentally create something entirely overpowered or completely worthless and become convinced that it's balanced because of its point value.

Yeah someone with no knowledge of the system would mess up like that.
Its a guide to help with, so you need to know how to use it, I mean yeah sure you can abuse it. I have a crow people somewhere that are 14 points(or so) with Scent and a good fly speed
If you work with your Gm on things and handle everything reasonably(and make sure one of you or a third person is there that really knows the system)


NPCs can already have any stats the GM wants to give them so racial modifiers are far less significant there.

We have been talking about game mechanics.
More its been about how people love kobolds and they were not bad with 3.X, and how we want the mechanics to be fair for all races. Based on like/love of the fluff
When all are not made equal


The first varies by game world but the second is most definitely false.
Again fluff. Though I would agree a game with the right setup it could be interesting for a kobold town. There is going to be a Kobold district in my city game(several, of varying sizes). They will be these large buildings with big rooms and holes everywhere to get around, so if your not small sized your not moving around it easily unless you in the entrance room
No no its not. If I look up the stats for kobolds in the book. Yeah yeah they are really really weak. I mean so weak there CR is lowered and they tell you this so you can use even more


Why should one race be inherently weaker than another? What does that add to the story being told or the world being simulated?
Simulates predator, prey relations
Simulates overcoming adversity through ingenuity, a kobold can't beat that wolf but he can lead it into a trap and injure it or capture it.
Same when a human fights a giant and they are not a adventurer what are they going to do? Similar things
When out-classed, out-matched you adapt change tactics and secure victory.
After All It's the Most Dangerous Game (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Most_Dangerous_Game)

[Kaerou]

I dislike the whole description part of that page in PF (to me the race evolved past the 'omg weak hateful snively horrid people' thing before RotD and it was way past gone after RotD was published, the fandom has mostly very much accepted Kobolds and I really wish they would be made a player race in 5th)

I don't care much about the unbalanced (bad) stats. In fact I find it helps me get to play one (since they are actually weaker so there are no real balance reasons a DM might deny the option to play one)

Additionally they are an underdog race. Everyone loves the underdog.

[Vknight]

I dislike the whole description part of that page in PF (to me the race evolved past the 'omg weak hateful snively horrid people' thing before RotD and it was way past gone after RotD was published, the fandom has mostly very much accepted Kobolds and I really wish they would be made a player race in 5th)

I don't care much about the unbalanced (bad) stats. In fact I find it helps me get to play one (since they are actually weaker so there are no real balance reasons a DM might deny the option to play one)

Additionally they are an underdog race. Everyone loves the underdog.

Kaerou you speak sense.
Though I disagree with them starting out in the PHB, I can respect why people would but there would then be 3 small races. Gnome, Halfling, Kobold

And if you make them into a PHB race then the developers will want to balance them to those scales and/or want to remove them as monster fodder early on in the game

[otakumick]

Kaerou you speak sense.
Though I disagree with them starting out in the PHB, I can respect why people would but there would then be 3 small races. Gnome, Halfling, Kobold

And if you make them into a PHB race then the developers will want to balance them to those scales and/or want to remove them as monster fodder early on in the game

Easy solution, ditch gnomes... I kid, I kid. I actually like gnomes when I'm not playing characters that hate gnomes...

I don't understand why anyone would say no whisper gnomes in a gnome v. kobold argument and allow dragonwrought... if you are arguing vanilla gnome v. vanilla kobold then kobolds obviously win because garl glittergold is a horrible excuse for a good deity... however, Include dragonwrought... and whispergnomes... and chaos gnomes... its just more fun to include all the options... I'll vote kobold over gnome any day, but thats just cause tiny dragons are awesome and I almost never get a dm that lets me play a pseudodragon with a human hireling that claims that I'm their familiar :p

[VeisuItaTyhjyys]

One of my friends once played a monster-race wizard that had a human familiar. Obviously not the RAWest thing around, but it was pretty funny. I think we just statted the human out as a medium sized mephit with no powers or something.