OOTS #884 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Amidus Drexel]

Ooh, interesting. I like V's philosophical stance on the whole thing.

[Maquise]

So V must have a bit of wisdom, in addition to Intelligence.

Also, this is why Qarr is still an imp.

[Mutant Sheep]

"Durkon probably ressed someone by now"

"He's not stopping us"

"Welp not that way!" :smallbiggrin:

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

Glad to see that V has somewhat recovered from the "room full of rotting people I killed" thing.

[Silva Stormrage]

Qarr really isn't cut out for the whole trickery thing is he? Outsmarted by Blackwing and V. I pity him if he has to talk to Haley at any point. He will spill the entire IFCC's plan :smalltongue:

[rgrekejin]

Hehehe... Qarr being outsmarted strips are some of my favorite strips.

[Nimrod's Son]

Typo in the last panel: "descended".

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Qarr gets no respect. I like that! :smallwink:

[Magnera]

Wonderful comic Giant, Its nice to see that things are still comming along nicely.

[Psyren]

Rule #1 for dealing with fiends - figure out what they want you to do, then do something else.

And someone is clearly on an April 15th kick judging by the title :smallbiggrin:

[Haluesen]

Wow I didn't expect to be online when the comic updated. O.O That rarely happens to me. Whoo!

And I guess it is good to see V actually doing something now. I'm all tense waiting for things to get to the climax of this arc.

[CoffeeIncluded]

Wow Qarr is bad at this. Though I've got to admit the title really scared me at first. I thought the fiends were calling in their debt right here, right now.

That's not to say they won't, but at least it didn't happen this strip.

[ThePhantasm]

Clever strip. Though I think Blackwings "there's something I'm missing" might foreshadow V being taken over by the Fiends again soon?

[Gift Jeraff]

I can't help but think Qarr was only pretending to try to kill Blackwing earlier, to keep up the illusion that they want V's soul for eternal damnation.

It also seems Blackwing hasn't pieced together that the "friend of a friend" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0792.html) is Sabine and that the IFCC has been manipulating things from the very beginning.

[The Giant]

Typo in the last panel: "descended".

Whoops. Should be fixed now.

[Skeletor]

You have to love deductive reasoning. I can't help but wonder how V is going to help fix the unmitigated disaster that this has been. I wonder if he is packing a control undead spell.

[SaintRidley]

Rich, you are such a tease with these titles.


You have to love deductive reasoning. I can't help but wonder how V is going to help fix the unmitigated disaster that this has been. I wonder if he is packing a control undead spell.

V can't cast necromancy spells.

[RustyVenture]

Ok V. Now you know the Order could be in trouble, and that you need to get your mind right. Get back to them as fast as you can or all will be lost.

[Psyren]

While the thread is in its infancy I'll explain the title joke (in case someone wonders about it later.)

"Credits and deductions" is a twofold pun. The first meaning is that these are terms related to filing your taxes, the deadline for which in the United States was yesterday, 4/15. The Giant likely had taxes on the brain (or knew we would) when he came up with the comic title.

The second meaning is in two parts: first, "Credit" also means "being responsible for" (as in "I took credit for my hard work.") Qarr's lie is that the splices, rather than V, are responsible for Familicide, but V sees through the charade and owns up to the evil he has committed, taking credit for it himself.

Second, "deduction" has the other meaning "to arrive at a conclusion on a logical basis" (as in "I deduced that he was the murderer based on the evidence at the crime scene.") This is related to Blackwing and V attempting to figure out Qarr's angle, and do anything but what he wants them to do.''

As a possible third layer of the pun - credits and deductions are good things to have on your tax return, because they reduce the final bill you owe to the government (or maximize your tax refund.) In the comic, credits and deductions are a good thing for V as well, because they prevent him from arriving at the false conclusions Qarr is attempting to bait him with.

[Starscream]

This is why V is a fantastic character. It's not easy to write intelligent characters who actually act intelligently. Look at how many Hollywood movies feature alleged geniuses who make incredibly stupid decisions because the plot says so.

But scenes like this and V's battle with Xykon (post splice, where s/he actually uses smarts to get the upper hand) show that his/her INT score is more than just a number on a character sheet.

[TaiLiu]

Heh. The smug smile on his face, ruined a few panels later...

[Gnomish Wanderer]

V acting smart is best ^.^ Super happy with this.

[Sky_Schemer]

Strips like this remind me of how awesome V can be.

[Fates]

Thank the powers that be that's over. I really like the direction the strips have been going- the tensions just keep building!

Also, first...page!

[Forikroder]

i love how much info they can get out of Quarr so easily

the IFCC should really jsut give him que cards to read or at least an earpiece

[Agnostik]

Yep, Qarr and the Linear Guild are made for each other.

[MoonCat]

Yes! V-being-functional time!

[JSSheridan]

Thanks Giant!

[Chaotic Queen]

Now this is why Vaarsuvius is my favorite character. She's really clever to use Quarr's lie against him.

[ThePhantom]

Qarr, you may be evil, but you are minor at this. Kubota was the one running the show in the past, and just because you traded up in bosses, doesn't mean that you have improved.

Nice comic.

[oppyu]

Qarr is really bad at... well, everything.

[draigan]

Must be my lucky day rare is it the site updates while i am checking it :smallsmile: Glad to see V getting his/her head back in the game

[Forikroder]

Qarr, you may be evil, but you are minor at this. Kubota was the one running the show in the past, and just because you traded up in bosses, doesn't mean that you have improved.

Nice comic.

theres a big gap between him disapearing before the battle and apearing next to V

he was up to something teasing V was an added bonus

[Thokk_Smash]

Minor nitpick: In the fifth panel, V says "...if were not wholly untrue." I believe there should be an "it" there, making the sentence "...if it were not wholly untrue". Great chapter!

[FlawedParadigm]

I don't know if Qarr is specifically bad at his job so much as the main person we see him working against has 20+ Intelligence.

[Anarion]

I have to say, that was one of the best portrayal's I've seen of high int in a story. Simple deductions and a predictable imp, but I'd be surprised if very many readers picked up on Roy's descent before V did. I know I didn't.

I also love how expressive Qarr is considering he's very small in most of the panels.

[Psyren]

I don't know if Qarr is specifically bad at his job so much as the main person we see him working against has 20+ Intelligence.

And clearly a positive Wis as well.

But I don't think Qarr is truly dumb - he's still one of the smarter members of the LG. He's cocky, and hamstrung a bit by his need to play both sides, but not stupid. And as you said, his primary target is smarter than he is (when he's not distracted/wallowing in guilt) which makes him appear relatively dumb.

[Fralex]

It occurs to me that Atonement (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/atonement.htm) is a 5th-level Cleric spell a certain elf could really benefit from right about now. Too bad Durkon died in V's absence...

[137beth]

So V is exploiting what Blackwing deduced in the fight against Z:
Quarr is a moron.

EDIT: And while yes, almost anyone is not as smart as V, remember that Quarr was also outwitted by blackwing.

[Forikroder]

So V is exploiting what Blackwing deduced in the fight against Z:
Quarr is a moron.

EDIT: And while yes, almost anyone is not as smart as V, remember that Quarr was also outwitted by blackwing.

Blackwing has been shown to be smarter then ALOT of people in the comic thus far

[Doorhandle]

I am just putting this here to say that Qarr just go truly and utterly THRASHED there.

[JackRackham]

Sometimes, the elf is awesome. Way to show off that 18+ INT, Vaarsuvius.

[Icedaemon]

That imp is amazing at screwing up anything he puts his mind to.

[BobVosh]

Suck it, Imp.

[Forikroder]

i wonder if V will try to attone for his actions by spending the entirety of his life (and possibly make it so he spend his death) sitting in front of a gate in order to ensure its safe for all eternity as a way to apologize to the draketooth clan by carrying there torch

[Bulldog Psion]

Looks like V is back in the game. :smallsmile:

[homeslice]

I know it necessary, but the process of catching people up to the plot always seems so... frustrating.

I just want to shout at them and say what's going on.

[Golden-Esque]

I'm leaning towards the Xanatos Gambit on the fiend's part here, because that was a little too obvious.

Think about it. The Fiends want needless conflict. If the Order of the Stick gets knocked out of the running, then who is going to get the gate? Xyklon. The Linear Guild, even with Tarquin backing them up, is not going to be able to stand up to the Lich when he arrives. So if the Order dies, then there is a very finite amount of "needless conflict" left for the Three Fiends to pull off their plan.

So they sent Quarr knowing that he'd mess up to get V back into the fight, which is going to skew the battle more in the Order of the Stick's favor.

Of course, I'm not looking forward to V's reaction when he finds out Durkon's fate. Hopefully it'll lead to some awesome character growth for him.

[Obscure Blade]

Clever strip. Though I think Blackwings "there's something I'm missing" might foreshadow V being taken over by the Fiends again soon?
My theory: Neither V nor Blackwing has yet hit on the idea that the Fiends may intend to use V's soul-debt to take control of V while V is still alive. They are still thinking in terms of what happens to his/her soul after V dies.

[ithaqua]

I'm surprised people keep calling the imp stupid. It seems to me

that he's very, very good at pretending to be a very, very bad liar, and letting V motivate himself to go exactly where the gentlemen below want him: next to Roy, who will shortly be next to the Gate. Isn't the general consensus that the Fiendish Plan involves calling in V's soul and taking over his body in order to do something nasty and gate-related?

[Ir0npanda]

thanks for the strip, Rich. How is the thumb doing?

[Forikroder]

I'm leaning towards the Xanatos Gambit on the fiend's part here, because that was a little too obvious.

Think about it. The Fiends want needless conflict. If the Order of the Stick gets knocked out of the running, then who is going to get the gate? Xyklon. The Linear Guild, even with Tarquin backing them up, is not going to be able to stand up to the Lich when he arrives. So if the Order dies, then there is a very finite amount of "needless conflict" left for the Three Fiends to pull off their plan.

So they sent Quarr knowing that he'd mess up to get V back into the fight, which is going to skew the battle more in the Order of the Stick's favor.

Of course, I'm not looking forward to V's reaction when he finds out Durkon's fate. Hopefully it'll lead to some awesome character growth for him.

more like "sent quarr because they knew he couldnt fail" either Vs grief addled state is enough to believe Quarrs lies (like Blackwing did) or his apearence is enough to shake V out of his grief and get back in the game (like it did)

i really dont get why people keep acting like Q is as bad as Elan or Nale

[gallagher]

Does this show off V's intelligence score? I think it does. Yes, yes it does.

[JackRackham]

V isn't entirely correct, though. Just because he/she can't see what motive they would have to salve his conscience other than ensuring his eternal damnation doesn't mean one does not exist. In point of fact, there is another motive here.

They need V to move; they can't have the Order collapse just yet. We don't know what their endgame is, but we know it depends on Xykon not winning outright, or they could have simply sat back and let it happen. My guess is, as has been theorized before, it involves V being in the right place (for them) at the right time.

I'm guessing this is the part neither Blackwing nor V have figured out yet (that and, possibly, that V needn't die for them to claim their time with his/her soul).

EDIT: Ninja'd, a little.

[ericgrau]

Oh yeah, V has a high int and this is a useful thing.

[Psyren]

I'm surprised people keep calling the imp stupid. It seems to me

that he's very, very good at pretending to be a very, very bad liar, and letting V motivate himself to go exactly where the gentlemen below want him: next to Roy, who will shortly be next to the Gate. Isn't the general consensus that the Fiendish Plan involves calling in V's soul and taking over his body in order to do something nasty and gate-related?

I agree - Qarr's whole purpose in porting over to them was to get V moving again, so he's actually winning.

[Messenger]

Blackwing: "... something still isn't adding up here. I just can't put my feather on it."

Forgive me- I'm trying to figure out what Blackwing is missing and am not doing well at it. Or is it really just what they guessed in the last panel?

[pasta]

I'm leaning towards the Xanatos Gambit on the fiend's part here, because that was a little too obvious.

Think about it. The Fiends want needless conflict. If the Order of the Stick gets knocked out of the running, then who is going to get the gate? Xyklon. The Linear Guild, even with Tarquin backing them up, is not going to be able to stand up to the Lich when he arrives. So if the Order dies, then there is a very finite amount of "needless conflict" left for the Three Fiends to pull off their plan.

So they sent Quarr knowing that he'd mess up to get V back into the fight, which is going to skew the battle more in the Order of the Stick's favor.

Of course, I'm not looking forward to V's reaction when he finds out Durkon's fate. Hopefully it'll lead to some awesome character growth for him.

I'm thinking similarly - since I can see no other purpose at all for Qarr to have approached V. I doubt he would appear for the sole purpose of poorly taunting V, especially since he seemed too easily trounced in his endeavours.

[Forikroder]

Blackwing: "... something still isn't adding up here. I just can't put my feather on it."

Forgive me- I'm trying to figure out what Blackwing is missing and am not doing well at it. Or is it really just what they guessed in the last panel?

V still ahs his debt with the fiends and noone seems to really remember

[Crafty]

While the thread is in its infancy I'll explain the title joke (in case someone wonders about it later.)


As a possible third layer of the pun - credits and deductions are good things to have on your tax return, because they reduce the final bill you owe to the government (or maximize your tax refund.) In the comic, credits and deductions are a good thing for V as well, because they prevent him from arriving at the false conclusions Qarr is attempting to bait him with.

Or that he has incurred a massive debt in the grand scheme of things that will land him in the lower planes -- but hopefully it's a debt against which various good deeds will operate as credits and deductions.

[Obscure Blade]

Blackwing: "... something still isn't adding up here. I just can't put my feather on it."

Forgive me- I'm trying to figure out what Blackwing is missing and am not doing well at it. Or is it really just what they guessed in the last panel?My answer from upthread:


My theory: Neither V nor Blackwing has yet hit on the idea that the Fiends may intend to use V's soul-debt to take control of V while V is still alive. They are still thinking in terms of what happens to his/her soul after V dies.

[rodneyAnonymous]

I agree that V is smart, but I'm not sure this illustrates that Qarr is dumb. As far as we know he achieved exactly what he wanted to achieve.

[Starwaster]

My theory: Neither V nor Blackwing has yet hit on the idea that the Fiends may intend to use V's soul-debt to take control of V while V is still alive. They are still thinking in terms of what happens to his/her soul after V dies.

That's what I've been thinking since day one. Vaarsuvius didn't read that contract very well.. at all. Understandable perhaps given the circumstances but it's still going to be a costly mistake.

[zimmerwald1915]

Vaarsuvius didn't read that contract very well.. at all.
There was nothing to read. Written contracts may be for people with something to hide...but so are verbal contracts.

[The Second]

So Quarr tries to bluff V into thinking he's got an ace in the hole but V reasons that Quarr's playing with a marked deck.

So, will V continue playing Quarr's game and take a chance on a lucky draw, cash in his chips and face paying off his debt, kick the table over and let fly with the disintegrates, or run away screaming?

[Forikroder]

So Quarr tries to bluff V into thinking he's got an ace in the hole but V reasons that Quarr's playing with a marked deck.

So, will V continue playing Quarr's game and take a chance on a lucky draw, cash in his chips and face paying off his debt, kick the table over and let fly with the disintegrates, or run away screaming?

your metaphor became completely ununderstanderable avter Quarr tries to bluff V

also we know Vs next move calmly lwalk away and try to find Roy

[Cynric]

Good to see V finally getting back into it properly. I'm wondering exactly how Roy will react when V has to explain the nature of his absence, and how his actions have pretty much been the driving force of everything that has gone wrong since they arrived.
If I had to guess, it wouldn't be 'with charity and understanding'.

[Snails]

V getting on the move may serve Qarr, but not moving hardly serves V. At this split second in time, their interests do converge.

[Forikroder]

V getting on the move may serve Qarr, but not moving hardly serves V. At this split second in time, their interests do converge.

what if V living the rest of his life in that hole is actually the best thing V can do to ensure the forces of darkness dont achieve there goal?

[Psyren]

I agree that V is smart, but I'm not sure this illustrates that Qarr is dumb. As far as we know he achieved exactly what he wanted to achieve.

Precisely.


Good to see V finally getting back into it properly. I'm wondering exactly how Roy will react when V has to explain the nature of his absence, and how his actions have pretty much been the driving force of everything that has gone wrong since they arrived.
If I had to guess, it wouldn't be 'with charity and understanding'.

To be honest V deserves an upbraiding. Had he not run off like that, Durkon might very well still be alive - Malack is powerful, but it's not like he could have grappled them both, and V has a good will save too.

Not telling his teammates about the splice (and the future ramifications thereof) is just as bad, though he could indeed be operating under the (likely incorrect) assumption that the Fiends' debt won't be called until he is dead.


what if V living the rest of his life in that hole is actually the best thing V can do to ensure the forces of darkness dont achieve there goal?

Then at the very least he can Send to the others and get them to stop worrying about him/looking for him. V's absence directly led to Belkar being attacked, which subsequently led to Durkon's death.

[rewinn]

Qarr and Nale: which is more delusional in thinking he's a genius?


I know it necessary, but the process of catching people up to the plot always seems so... frustrating.

I just want to shout at them and say what's going on.

Usually it's the characters who break the 4th wall, not the readers :smallbiggrin:


V getting on the move may serve Qarr, but not moving hardly serves V. At this split second in time, their interests do converge.

Yes, except that Qarr could have told V which way to go to join Roy, but didn't. Is this because Qarr now knows V completely distrusts Q and will believe just the opposite? Or since V knows Qarr knows V completely distrusts Q, Qarr will tell the truth knowing V will consider it a lie and .... :smallconfused::smallannoyed::smallmad: :smallfurious:

[Forikroder]

Precisely.



To be honest V deserves an upbraiding. Had he not run off like that, Durkon might very well still be alive - Malack is powerful, but it's not like he could have grappled them both, and V has a good will save too.

Not telling his teammates about the splice (and the future ramifications thereof) is just as bad, though he could indeed be operating under the (likely incorrect) assumption that the Fiends' debt won't be called until he is dead.

the scenario wouldnt ahve changed, V hates Belkar and Belkar hates V, sending him would make no sense

they wouldnt have wanted to split there power as much as possible so Durkon would still ahve gone along

Durkon would still ahve been concerned of Malack controlling Elan and Haley (not to mention Belkar) so he still wouldnt ahve retreated

the only way the scenario plays differently is if V kills the hell hound before it carries belkar off(unlikely)


Qarr and Nale: which is more delusional in thinking he's a genius?

since when does Quarr think hes a genius?

[Draz74]

I'm wondering where people got the idea that Qarr is a moron ... other than Blackwing outsmarting him and calling him a moron in one solitary episode. OK, he's probably not the most silver-tongued fiend in Hell ... but overall I don't think he's dumb. I think the IFCC recruited him because he's a genuinely useful agent for them.

As regards the latest strip, I agree with the people who are saying Qarr got just what he wanted in this strip. Silver tongue or not, all temptation-focused devils know how to use reverse psychology when their mark starts making decisions based on a "do whatever the fiend doesn't want" heuristic ... and Qarr might have just pulled off a reverse psychology move with a brilliant poker face.

I will say, I am impressed with Blackwing if he is close to figuring out that V's possession by the IFCC might happen pre-mortem. After all, Blackwing wasn't even "there" personally to hear the Faustian Pact being made.

[zimmerwald1915]

the scenario wouldnt ahve changed, V hates Belkar and Belkar hates V, sending him would make no sense
I wouldn't be so sure. See panel 6 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0781.html).

[Forikroder]

I'm wondering where people got the idea that Qarr is a moron ... other than Blackwing outsmarting him and calling him a moron in one solitary episode. OK, he's probably not the most silver-tongued fiend in Hell ... but overall I don't think he's dumb. I think the IFCC recruited him because he's a genuinely useful agent for them.

note that he had blackwing fooled this strip only V saw through him

[SaintRidley]

There was nothing to read. Written contracts may be for people with something to hide...but so are verbal contracts.

Ah, but they hid nothing. Transparency was truly the best camouflage in this case, as it kept V from seeing the thing in plain sight. Not because the IFCC hid it, but because V chose not to see it.

[FireJustice]

Best way to lie.

Tell someone who will believe in you (a gullible one) a lie/the opposite-of-what-you-want and then ask this gullible one to repeat what he just heared to your target.

If your target check for lies, he will find nothing. Who's telling him must believe that the information is true. But if your target is Intelligent he may deduce that obvious lie is obvious, and do exactly what you want.

Qarr is the gullible one. And he doesn't even know.

I, also, put my money on "in to the living" that V owes the fiendish trio

[skaddix]

Overall I assume the IFFC goal was to get V moving which was accomplished so win for them and the order is now headed in to a 4 v 4 or a 4 v 6 (Counting Summons)

[Zephyr1011]

V still ahs his debt with the fiends and noone seems to really remember

Are they even allowed to take his soul whenever they want?

[Forikroder]

Best way to lie.

Tell someone who will believe in you (a gullible one) a lie/the opposite-of-what-you-want and then ask this gullible one to repeat what he just heared to your target.

If your target check for lies, he will find nothing. Who's telling him must believe that the information is true. But if your target is Intelligent he may deduce that obvious lie is obvious, and do exactly what you want.

Qarr is the gullible one. And he doesn't even know.

I, also, put my money on "in to the living" that V owes the fiendish trio

best way to lie is to tell enough of the truth that the other side assumes the rest in a way that benefits you

just look at redcloak explain his killing of Tsukiko and youll nderstand it was masterclass truth lieing


Are they even allowed to take his soul whenever they want?

topic of intense debate

[Porthos]

Are they even allowed to take his soul whenever they want?

Let's put it this way, each and every time V mentioned about how the Fiends would get his soul after he died, the IFCC was very quick to change the subject, or talk about something else V had said.

They never actually verified V's statements about his soul at any time.

And when it looked like V was about to die at the flanges of Xykon, they didn't exactly look thrilled there. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0656.html) :smallwink:

[OoTLink]

Now this is why Vaarsuvius is my favorite character. She's really clever to use Quarr's lie against him.

Same. I dunno why some people lament his presence, he (or she) is still my favorite character. XD

[DarkWhisper]

"Credits and deductions" is a twofold pun. The first meaning is that these are terms related to filing your taxes, (...)


Thank you; puns of this kind are very hard if not downright impossible to get for non-US people.

[Mike Havran]

:smallamused: Heh heh heh...since it's in the IFCC's best intentions to get V moving towards the gate, Qarr's achievement is absolutely brilliant. Not to mention that if V went up, she would probably not have the guts to kill the mummy and the mummy would kill her instead.



topic of intense debateAs far as I know, this intense debate is just between you and just about everybody else.

[Porthos]

As far as I know, this intense debate is just between you and just about everybody else.

No, there has always been a fairly decent sized minority opinion on this subject. A look at the initial disucssion thread for that comic will show that. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=105387)

Admittedly, I don't read every thread on the subject anymore, so I don't know just how prevelant the 'The IFCC gets V's soul when he pops his clogs' faction is right now. But every time I do look into it, I've seen people put forward that viewpoint. :smallwink:

[sam79]

While the thread is in its infancy I'll explain the title joke (in case someone wonders about it later.)

"Credits and deductions" is a twofold pun. The first meaning is that these are terms related to filing your taxes, the deadline for which in the United States was yesterday, 4/15. The Giant likely had taxes on the brain (or knew we would) when he came up with the comic title.

The second meaning is in two parts: first, "Credit" also means "being responsible for" (as in "I took credit for my hard work.") Qarr's lie is that the splices, rather than V, are responsible for Familicide, but V sees through the charade and owns up to the evil he has committed, taking credit for it himself.

Second, "deduction" has the other meaning "to arrive at a conclusion on a logical basis" (as in "I deduced that he was the murderer based on the evidence at the crime scene.") This is related to Blackwing and V attempting to figure out Qarr's angle, and do anything but what he wants them to do.''

As a possible third layer of the pun - credits and deductions are good things to have on your tax return, because they reduce the final bill you owe to the government (or maximize your tax refund.) In the comic, credits and deductions are a good thing for V as well, because they prevent him from arriving at the false conclusions Qarr is attempting to bait him with.

Thanks for this explaination, particularly the references to the US tax year/tax return process. That part went right over my head. I like this strip, and it's good to see V getting herself moving again, but the title is the best thing about it.

I think (like several previous posters) that the thing Blackwing can't put his feather on the possibility that the Fiends can take over V before her death (like, for example, when she joins the party neaer the Gate behind the Obvious Door).

[Chantelune]

And this is why I love V. Glad she's starting to recover, the order is in dire need of her power as of two hours ago. :smallbiggrin:

[Gitman00]

Wait - imps are lawful evil. I thought devils couldn't lie?

[Fralex]

I wonder why Vaarsuvius stopped trying to kill the imp.

[Weimann]

In this comic: high Int at work.

[JCAll]

I wonder why Vaarsuvius stopped trying to kill the imp.

Because every time he opens his mouth, or even doesn't open his mouth, it tells V something he needs to know.

[Iranon]

Hooray for the combination of single-storey "a"s, low-resolution monitors and puerile minds:

"Conversely, if the onus of my deed sits squarely upon my own brow..."
Yes, V had his/her head squarely up there.

[Kislath]

Devils don't lie.

They do, however...omit.

[GrimoireM]

I wonder why Vaarsuvius stopped trying to kill the imp.

Qarr did try to help V once, even if it lead to the splice incident with the IFCC, Qarr himself was genuinely offering aid. that at least merits not killing him. It doesn't merit being polite, however.

[Deepfriedice]

"Conversely, if the onus of my deed sits squarely upon my own brow..."
Yes, V had his/her head squarely up there.

Dammit, now I have trouble reading the page with a straight face.



Devils don't lie.
They do, however...omit.

There's no guarantee Qarr knows the straight truth either.
Actually, if the IFCC wanted to fool V, tricking Qarr might be a lot more effective than relying on him to deceive Vaarsuvius.

[factotum]

I would think the IFCC actually *want* V to meet up with the rest of the Order...they certainly don't want Tarquin to gain control of the Gate! This is presumably the only reason why Qarr has arrived at this moment, and he's either being extremely clever or (more likely) he's been coached in exactly what to say to encourage V to do what the IFCC wants him to do.

[The Pilgrim]

Given that the IFCC probably sent Qarr to put V into motion, I'd not call this a complete failure for the Imp.

[Vaylon]

Qarr is not an idiot; he is fairly perceptive, as this comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0637.html) shows. Other people have (correctly, in my estimation) pointed out that anything that ostensibly helps V actually helps the IFCC. Probably the worst outcome for the fiends at this point would be for V to die or kill himself. Remember, it was Qarr who gave Zz'dtri the coordinates (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0803.html) to the Semi-Elemental Plane of Ranch Dressing. The three fiends are actively trying to keep V alive. The fiends don't want Xykon to win; they probably want the gates to themselves for some scheme against the good-aligned gods. To that end, they sent Qarr to V in order to get him moving and make him determined to repent.

V's doom will be in his desire to make amends.

As a side note, the IFCC's goal of destructive, unnecessary conflict (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html) is in direct opposition to not only Tarquin and his group (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0758.html) but also Redcloak, both of whom desire order. I wouldn't be surprised to see these groups butt heads at some point. Interestingly, the IFCC has not indicated they know of Redcloak's manipulation of Xykon. As far as I can tell, the IFCC seems to think that Xykon is in control.

[stsasser]

I'm wondering where people got the idea that Qarr is a moron ... other than Blackwing outsmarting him and calling him a moron in one solitary episode.

His employers have a record of hiring morons (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html).

As for shifting blame onto the soul spliced, that is a feeble lie, even by Quarr standards (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0633.html).

[Needle]

I'm still on my toes, but yay V coming back! :smallbiggrin:

[Adventurer]

Too many people here say that Qarr's lie is bad and Vaarsuvius has outsmarted him and succeeded thanks to his intelligence etc. Has none of you paused to wonder whether Qarr intended to make his lie sound so feeble? His facial expression on panel 4 is that of someone who knows his lie isn't holding water, and face it, he wouldn't leave the LG's side at this point just to make sure that they will get V's soul after [s]he dies!

However, by making his lie so unbelievable, Qarr made V use his brain and afterwards take action (ie return to the pyramid) , which is exactly what the IFCC want at this point, to put V where [s]he can have an influence on what happens next in the race for the gates instead of moping alone while the events unfold on their own.

[gerryq]

"His facial expression on panel 4 is that of someone who knows his lie isn't holding water." Exactly: panel 4 with the smile and the finger in the air is the perfect depiction of someone who says "I am totally lying".

The thing is, we still can't really know.

[Silverionmox]

Are they even allowed to take his soul whenever they want?

Of course. During the fight with Xykon, they mention explicitly that, if V were to be killed, "it would all have been a huge waste of time".

[JCAll]

Given that the IFCC probably sent Qarr to put V into motion, I'd not call this a complete failure for the Imp.

Qarr obviously didn't Plane Shift, and there's no sign that the IFCC made contact. He entered the scene with the same *pop* sound as when he left Malak. So presumibly he teleported straight there. As in, the Smoke Stick Ambush is still going on above.

And since he was willing to just let V walk back up where the LG had preplanned to regroup, we can't even really say for sure that he's trying to keep V alive or help defeat the LG.

[Kish]

Wait - imps are lawful evil. I thought devils couldn't lie?
Wherever did you (or Kislath) get that idea?

[OneSpartan]

So I can clearly not choose the wine in front of me...
:smallbiggrin:

[Mike Havran]

Qarr obviously didn't Plane Shift, and there's no sign that the IFCC made contact. He entered the scene with the same *pop* sound as when he left Malak. So presumibly he teleported straight there. As in, the Smoke Stick Ambush is still going on above.

And since he was willing to just let V walk back up where the LG had preplanned to regroup, we can't even really say for sure that he's trying to keep V alive or help defeat the LG.

Well, he might have used his Commune ability (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devil.htm#imp) to ask the IFCC where is Vaarsuvius and for further instructions. Otherwise I have no idea how he could find her in the cave tunnel. If he had no idea that the tunnel existed, how could he teleport in there?

[Kaulguard]

Great strip, G!

There is no reason that a Lawful aligned character can't lie. They follow an ordered set of principles, but there is nothing that says one of those principles must be 'truth always'.

Also, I always get the sense that Qarr is like a Hell-intern. It's not that he's stupid, he's just not very experienced. Remember his awe at the 'master class' in manipulation? He'll get there.

Thank Thor that V is up off her rump, dry eyed and on the move. There is a point at which guilt becomes self absorption, and V passed that point some time ago. Here's hoping that Durkula's plight (gad, are we really calling him that?) only strengthens her determination, and does not send her back into depression-mode.

[TRH]

Qarr obviously didn't Plane Shift, and there's no sign that the IFCC made contact. He entered the scene with the same *pop* sound as when he left Malak. So presumibly he teleported straight there. As in, the Smoke Stick Ambush is still going on above.

And since he was willing to just let V walk back up where the LG had preplanned to regroup, we can't even really say for sure that he's trying to keep V alive or help defeat the LG.

That's what's going on here? Good grief, how many things are going on at the exact same time right now? Seriously, between this, the Linear Guild, the OOTS, and Xykon all moving simultaneously my head is spinning. Space is warped and time is bendable!

[Leirus]

I love that elf.


That's what's going on here? Good grief, how many things are going on at the exact same time right now? Seriously, between this, the Linear Guild, the OOTS, and Xykon all moving simultaneously my head is spinning. Space is warped and time is bendable!

A lot of things have happened since we left V, but I think that while this strip is happening, the helldog thingie that took Belkar away was coming out of the door. However Blackwing spent some undeterminated amount of time looking for V, and V has to find the rest so... he can reunite with the rest of the party at any point from now on, and I think it will still work.

[LuPuWei]

I would have reasoned things out pretty much how V did, and I really like the way it illustrates how lying is always in the interests of Evil. Excellent. :smallsmile:

EDIT: Ooh! And awesome title, truly...

[Ezekiel]

What I think is interesting now that Qarr/V are having their little chat...Qarr's information might be a little dated at the moment vis-a-vis the LG. Last he knew the LG was being attacked by OotS and then the airtight trapdoor shut...a little bit has happened since then.

[DaOldeWolf]

Truly, an awesome chapter. Great to see V moving to help hir friends. The Order needs all the help it can get. Still, I wonder what Qarr is trying to accomplish by being there, besides annoying V.

[Adeptus]

Nice strip. The calm before the storm, I think.

[137beth]

Blackwing has been shown to be smarter then ALOT of people in the comic thus far

Since V is probably level 15-16, Blackwing has intelligence 13. So not super high, but certainly more intelligence than a lot of people (where "people" includes orcs, half-orcs, Elans, and average commoners.)

[Cerlis]

Of course. During the fight with Xykon, they mention explicitly that, if V were to be killed, "it would all have been a huge waste of time".

that doesn't translate to "because we can possess him while he is alive.


V dying in the process would be the equivalent of showing your stockholders the new car design and then when you turn it on, it explodes.

If V just up and died during the soul splice it would prove that "Hey, our product isn't that good. Just gain a few levels and then become a Lich"

[137beth]

that doesn't translate to "because we can possess him while he is alive.


V dying in the process would be the equivalent of showing your stockholders the new car design and then when you turn it on, it explodes.

If V just up and died during the soul splice it would prove that "Hey, our product isn't that good. Just gain a few levels and then become a Lich"

I agree. There is virtually no evidence that they could possess V while he/she/it is still alive, aside from the fact that several people on the forums have speculated it. If that counts as evidence, then Haley is a Draketooth (see any of the 23073 threads claiming such a thing.)

[Burner28]

Good thing Qarr wasn't able to manipulate V into shifting blame.

[Forikroder]

that doesn't translate to "because we can possess him while he is alive.


V dying in the process would be the equivalent of showing your stockholders the new car design and then when you turn it on, it explodes.

If V just up and died during the soul splice it would prove that "Hey, our product isn't that good. Just gain a few levels and then become a Lich"

also would xykon have decided to start putting on the daddy pants and get the Circus on the road if V hadnt lost his Phylactery?

i dont think so i think it still would ahve been bussiness as usual he never seemed to actually get serious against V, still was just his joking unserious self until the Phylactery was lost

[Chantelune]

Wait - imps are lawful evil. I thought devils couldn't lie?

Roy is Lawfull Good, never stoped him to lie to the Order to get them to follow him on the starmetal quest.

Imp wouldn't break his promises, oath, whatever, but that won't prevent him for lying, omit and distort the truth whenever that serves his agenda. Heck, he even told Z the coordinates he gave him where for the semi-plane of extremely painfull torture. :smalltongue:

[pendell]

Roy's act was neither lawful nor good, but it didn't change his alignment because he's not a paladin. He's allowed to screw up from time to time because he really does keep trying.

Later he repented of this action (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0294.html) and stopped trying to lie, manipulate, guilt, or force the other characters to do what he wanted. Instead he chose to lead free people who would follow him of their own volition. You think about it, compelling people to act against their will because you know better than they isn't really that much different from what Tsukiko and Redcloak do to the undead.


Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Chad30]

I think it would be funny if one of the IFCC guys came to V at some point and had him do something that seems trivial, but of course helps further their goals. V might think if they want him to do something, it would be drastic like kill one of his friends or destroy something valuable to them.

But he'd stress over what they want until they say it, then stress about what harm that thing might do later. Even if it's like casting a symbol spell somewhere or crafting a totem or something.

[Forikroder]

I think it would be funny if one of the IFCC guys came to V at some point and had him do something that seems trivial, but of course helps further their goals. V might think if they want him to do something, it would be drastic like kill one of his friends or destroy something valuable to them.

But he'd stress over what they want until they say it, then stress about what harm that thing might do later. Even if it's like casting a symbol spell somewhere or crafting a totem or something.

i dont think V would get flustered so easily

pluss the IFCC guys cant come to V V has to come to them

[Chad30]

They interact while making a deal. I figured they could come if it was about him repaying his debt specifically.

Maybe he wouldn't get flustered that easily, but I think it would be funny to watch.

[Forikroder]

They interact while making a deal. I figured they could come if it was about him repaying his debt specifically.

Maybe he wouldn't get flustered that easily, but I think it would be funny to watch.

they can only act on the mortal plane while making a deal unless V sells his soul again they cant do diddly squat

[skim172]

Y'know, Qarr seems bright and all, but based on the results, he's just the worst at his job, isn't he? V and Blackwing can read him like a book. His biggest success was getting zinged by a Disintegrate, unwittingly opening the window for the Black Dragon and leading to IFCC's intervention.

Perhaps the IFCC doesn't actually respect Qarr as a "go-getter", so much as they really, really like working with total morons (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html).

[Forikroder]

Y'know, Qarr seems bright and all, but based on the results, he's just the worst at his job, isn't he? V and Blackwing can read him like a book. His biggest success was getting zinged by a Disintegrate, unwittingly opening the window for the Black Dragon and leading to IFCC's intervention.

Perhaps the IFCC doesn't actually respect Qarr as a "go-getter", so much as they really, really like working with total morons (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html).

re-read the chapter (panel 4 especially) Blackwing believed him it was V who saw through his charade and in panel 9 he doesnt even seem completely sure of Vs deduction

the only point BW gets is noticing that Quarr wasnt stopping them but then it was V who made something of it

[Fitzclowningham]

that doesn't translate to "because we can possess him while he is alive.


V dying in the process would be the equivalent of showing your stockholders the new car design and then when you turn it on, it explodes.

If V just up and died during the soul splice it would prove that "Hey, our product isn't that good. Just gain a few levels and then become a Lich"

Forgive me, but I don't understand this reasoning. The IFCC bargained with V for control of his soul; that's what they got in return for giving him/her the huge power boost of the soul splice. The fiends said right at the beginning that they cannot directly influence events on the Prime Material, so having pawns to do their bidding there could be valuable to them (as in the case of Qarr). If V's dying (aka leaving the PM plane) makes the bargain "a huge waste of time," doesn't it follow that the fiends intend to control V while he/she's still alive?

[Sir_Leorik]

Wait - imps are lawful evil. I thought devils couldn't lie?

Devils lie all the time. Being Lawful Evil means that you keep your word unless you can get away with not keeping your word. So they tell the truth when they know they can gain more by doing so, or there's no way to lie without getting caught. The trick is to lie to people who are less like to catch them lying or to have alibis to back up the lie.

Which is what the IFCC did when they tempted V into selling his/her soul to them in exchange for the splices. They mostly told the truth, even giving V a convoluted and far-fetched way to avoid dealing with them. Given V's state of mind he/she did not notice the holes in their story, nor notice the blatant lie about the splices.

As for Qarr, he's really bad at tempting people and at lying. He does well at tempting those who already crave power and have loose morals, like Kubota, but he failed to tempt V until V was completely desperate, by which point Qarr had nothing to offer V. And while he can trick morons like the giant Devil, he has trouble keeping his stories straight when dealing with clever characters, like Blackwing and V (when V is not Trance-deprived and desperate to save loved ones).

I can't imagine Qarr's resume looking very impressive...

[Sir_Leorik]

Y'know, Qarr seems bright and all, but based on the results, he's just the worst at his job, isn't he? V and Blackwing can read him like a book. His biggest success was getting zinged by a Disintegrate, unwittingly opening the window for the Black Dragon and leading to IFCC's intervention.

Perhaps the IFCC doesn't actually respect Qarr as a "go-getter", so much as they really, really like working with total morons (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html).

Total morons are easier to manipulate. :smallbiggrin:

[zimmerwald1915]

i dont think V would get flustered so easily
Based on what? Certainly not her behavior in either this book or the last.

[Sir_Leorik]

Given that the IFCC probably sent Qarr to put V into motion, I'd not call this a complete failure for the Imp.

True, but it would have been an actual victory if Qarr had manipulated V into doing the IFCC's bidding without spilling any of their plans. This counts as an own goal on Qarr's part.

[Forikroder]

Forgive me, but I don't understand this reasoning. The IFCC bargained with V for control of his soul; that's what they got in return for giving him/her the huge power boost of the soul splice. The fiends said right at the beginning that they cannot directly influence events on the Prime Material, so having pawns to do their bidding there could be valuable to them (as in the case of Qarr). If V's dying (aka leaving the PM plane) makes the bargain "a huge waste of time," doesn't it follow that the fiends intend to control V while he/she's still alive?

no it doesnt because they dont care if V died there... assuming he did what they wanted

if he ahd died there the next day Xykon would still be loitering around Azure city having fun torturing Ochul

they needed V to actually do enough damage to make Xykon stop wasting time and get moving

if Xykons meteor swarm had gone off and killed V they wouldnt ahve cared because at that point he had already lost Xykons Phylactery

they needed Xykon to think that there were forces out there as strong if not stronger then him and he needed to hurry before they managed to take him out

[Knight.Anon]

I was hoping that the imp would spill the vampiric beans.

[Chad30]

Personally I don't think Qarr is a moron. I guess he hasn't accomplished a whole lot on screen, though he did give Z the means to defeat V. Also the fact that the giant devil lost wasn't his fault. He just needs to work on keeping things close to his chest and keep a tighter lip on secrets.

I think he's been doing good work. He's just not hypercompetent.

[Sir_Leorik]

that doesn't translate to "because we can possess him while he is alive.

V dying in the process would be the equivalent of showing your stockholders the new car design and then when you turn it on, it explodes.

If V just up and died during the soul splice it would prove that "Hey, our product isn't that good. Just gain a few levels and then become a Lich"

Except that the speech the IFCC gave V was complete baloney. They were scrying on V (and probably the rest of the OotS) ever since Sabine told them about the Gates back in Volume 3. They were waiting for an opportunity to turn one of the Order's members into a pawn, and concluded that V was the best candidate. They then waited for V to try to sell his/her soul and pounced. Their goal is to seize control of one of the Gates and summon the Snarl into the Upper Planes. (They probably know more about Redcloak's plans then anyone else but Redcloak and the Dark One.)

In any event, you're not even interpreting their lie properly. Their "business model" wasn't splicing V with three souls, it was showing that Demons, Devils and Daemons could work together. They already know that to be true. Their actual "proof of concept" will be the destruction of the Upper Planes by the Snarl, which they hope will unite the fiends into one race. That's what they want: to kill every god and angel of good alignment and then enslave all mortals under the heel of a united fiend-kind.

[Chad30]

what's the difference between a demon and a daemon, anyway?

[Kish]

Demons are chaotic evil and represent one side in the Blood War.

Daemons are neutral evil and play both sides in the Blood War (demons and devils) against each other for their own gain.

[Forikroder]

Except that the speech the IFCC gave V was complete baloney. They were scrying on V (and probably the rest of the OotS) ever since Sabine told them about the Gates back in Volume 3. They were waiting for an opportunity to turn one of the Order's members into a pawn, and concluded that V was the best candidate. They then waited for V to try to sell his/her soul and pounced. Their goal is to seize control of one of the Gates and summon the Snarl into the Upper Planes. (They probably know more about Redcloak's plans then anyone else but Redcloak and the Dark One.)

In any event, you're not even interpreting their lie properly. Their "business model" wasn't splicing V with three souls, it was showing that Demons, Devils and Daemons could work together. They already know that to be true. Their actual "proof of concept" will be the destruction of the Upper Planes by the Snarl, which they hope will unite the fiends into one race. That's what they want: to kill every god and angel of good alignment and then enslave all mortals under the heel of a united fiend-kind.

we have no proof they want the snarl in fact we cant even be sure there still is a snarl theres strong evidence to the contrary

i dont think they want V as a pawn they were just trying to find a way to bring the order back together and make them and TE fight over the gates again and V was jsut the best way that was available

[Sir_Leorik]

no it doesnt because they dont care if V died there... assuming he did what they wanted

if he ahd died there the next day Xykon would still be loitering around Azure city having fun torturing Ochul

they needed V to actually do enough damage to make Xykon stop wasting time and get moving

if Xykons meteor swarm had gone off and killed V they wouldnt ahve cared because at that point he had already lost Xykons Phylactery

they needed Xykon to think that there were forces out there as strong if not stronger then him and he needed to hurry before they managed to take him out

This is the strip in question, where the IFCC are scrying on V and O-Chul's battle with Xykon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0656.html) By this point V has lost all of the splices, is unable to teleport and is trapped in Xykon's throne room in Azure City. V is invisible, running away from Xykon and O-Chul.

Here's Lee, Neero and Ceedrik's dialogue:


"There we go."
"Making a beeline for the stairs."
"Good. Get out of there already, I say."
Qarr: "Can't you guys, I don't know, Plane Shift her out of there?"
"We can only act directly on the mortal plane when we're making a deal"
"That's the main reason we need imps like you to run errands for us."
"If the elf dies here, this whole thing was a huge waste of time."

The IFCC aren't interested in claiming V's soul post-mortem. They are interested in controlling V while he/she's alive. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0667.html) V's soul is "little more than the free soup-or-salad to our main course of wickedness." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html)

They want to cause conflict in order to seize the Gate themselves. But they have a limited amount of time in which they exersize control of V's soul, so they're biding their time, relying on Qarr to not botch things up.

[Fitzclowningham]

no it doesnt because they dont care if V died there... assuming he did what they wanted

if he ahd died there the next day Xykon would still be loitering around Azure city having fun torturing Ochul

they needed V to actually do enough damage to make Xykon stop wasting time and get moving

if Xykons meteor swarm had gone off and killed V they wouldnt ahve cared because at that point he had already lost Xykons Phylactery

they needed Xykon to think that there were forces out there as strong if not stronger then him and he needed to hurry before they managed to take him out

They said all of this before they knew (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0656.html) anything important was going to happen to the phylactery. They had no idea at that time that (or how) V was going to to impact Team Evil's behavior.

[Snails]

what if V living the rest of his life in that hole is actually the best thing V can do to ensure the forces of darkness dont achieve there goal?

To the best of our knowledge, V not trying to help could easily lead to a TPK for the Order. That would seem to guarantee that Team Evil or Team Tarquin win a Gate.

Obviously the IFCC has some clever and likely to succeed plan employing V, but assuming their plan is bulletproof is premature.

[Sir_Leorik]

we have no proof they want the snarl in fact we cant even be sure there still is a snarl theres strong evidence to the contrary

i dont think they want V as a pawn they were just trying to find a way to bring the order back together and make them and TE fight over the gates again and V was jsut the best way that was available

Sabine learned about the Gates and the snarl from Nale. She told the IFCC about the Gates. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0380.html)

:sabine: "So the planet is holding a nigh-unstoppable god-killing terror that will consume everything if it gets out."

:nale: "Apparently."

She then runs off to tell the IFCC.

The only characters that know about the world in the Rift are Blackwing and V. While the IFCC did see Blackwing hesitate in front of the Rift, they did not know what he saw. They are working on the assumption the Snarl is still contained within the world.

[Forikroder]

They said all of this before they knew anything important was going to happen to the phylactery. They had no idea at that time that (or how) V was going to to impact Team Evil's behavior.

if he at least gets out alive then Xykon has to think its possible hell come back as strong as he was and do it all over again

the best case scenario for them is Xykon starts moving and the OoTS gets back together (the scenario taht happened)

the next best would be the OoTS to remain at full strength and Xykon possibly moving sooner (the scenario if V had gotten away with the invisibility)

the worst case is V dies and Xykon doesnt leave any sooner (the scenario if V had died before the Phylactery was lost)


She then runs off to tell the IFCC.

The only characters that know about the world in the Rift are Blackwing and V. While the IFCC did see Blackwing hesitate in front of the Rift, they did not know what he saw. They are working on the assumption the Snarl is still contained within the world.

if anything thats evidence that they dont care about the gates, they jsut realised those gates are going to attract bloodshed and its a good way to create there needless conflict

[Sir_Leorik]

They said all of this before they knew (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0656.html) anything important was going to happen to the phylactery. They had no idea at that time that (or how) V was going to to impact Team Evil's behavior.

They did suspect that V would try to destroy Xykon while spliced (and were counting on that) but did not know with 100% certainty. That's what made their initial manipulation of V so masterful, especially compared to Qarr's ham-handed attempts. V managed to sow distrust between Xykon and Redcloak, which ended with Redcloak murdering Tsukiko. V also managed to convice Xykon to abandon Azure City for good, and V also freed O-Chul, allowing the Sapphire Guard to get involved in defending the other Gate. They got all of that, plus time to control V, for the cost of having to hire the Ghost Busters to retrieve Gononron, Haera and Jephton's souls for them. (Ooh, that would make a nice bonus comic!)

[MaximKat]

A few more times like this and Quarr might actually figure out that he can manipulate V by acting the opposite of usual.

[rewinn]

Good thing Qarr wasn't able to manipulate V into shifting blame.

Blame Shift is a cantrip that is often attempted IRL. In OOTSverse it might be a good bardic spell.


I dunno why some people lament [V's] presence, he (or she) is still my favorite character. XD

IMO, the single most heroic panel in all of OOTS so far is Panel 7 of 657 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0657.html).
V is escaping to safety, but chooses to go back to rescue someone who is almost a stranger. That's heroism.

V is of course a Flawed Hero, even a Very Flawed Hero. That makes for better stories!


Devils don't lie.

They do, however...omit.

(reply omitted)


So I can clearly not choose the wine in front of me...
:smallbiggrin:

Heh. That's the uberpunchline ... at some point, the switcheroo is some complicated that you CAN'T logic it out; you just have to build up your immunity to Iocaine powder.



I think he's been doing good work. He's just not hypercompetent.

One of the really good things about OOTS is that the characters tend to be more than just templates with stats. They have good points and bad points, and the story is generated where these points run into each other; for example ...



Obviously the IFCC has some clever and likely to succeed plan employing V, but assuming their plan is bulletproof is premature.

... even the IFCC's plans have flaws, and therefore we have story.

[enh]

V's capabilities with logic amazes me sometimes. Skill Level: Jesuit.

Also, masterful title. :-)

[Sir_Leorik]

if anything thats evidence that they dont care about the gates, they jsut realised those gates are going to attract bloodshed and its a good way to create there needless conflict

Go reread strip #668 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html). The IFCC want to sieze the Gates. They say as much to Qarr in panel three. Director Lee apeases Tiamat by convincing her that the Familicide spell was part of an attempt to destroy the Gods of good. Which is what they'll be able to do with the Snarl, which can kill Gods.

They want to set the OotS, Team Evil and the Linear Guild against each other, in the same way that the Demons and Devils were set against each other in the Blood War (with the Daemons serving as mercenaries to the highest bidder; see the Planescape Campaign Setting for details.)

[FlawedParadigm]

I want a dime for every time someone types "Quarr." If I can get that set up, my next move would be to plan my retirement.

[Sir_Leorik]

Obviously the IFCC has some clever and likely to succeed plan employing V, but assuming their plan is bulletproof is premature.

That goes without saying. The IFCC are aware that their plan is not fool proof, but they have been taking steps to mitigate the possibility of failure.

[Sir_Leorik]

I want a dime for every time someone types "Quarr." If I can get that set up, my next move would be to plan my retirement.

Can I have a piece of that action? Qarr's been bugging me to pay him the money I owe him from the last poker game... :smallcool:

[zimmerwald1915]

I want a dime for every time someone types "Quarr." If I can get that set up, my next move would be to plan my retirement.
Do foolish autocorrects count?

[Sir_Leorik]

Do foolish autocorrects count?

Only if the Autocorrect doesn't make it "Quarry".

[Snails]

They did suspect that V would try to destroy Xykon while spliced (and were counting on that) but did not know with 100% certainty. That's what made their initial manipulation of V so masterful, especially compared to Qarr's ham-handed attempts. V managed to sow distrust between Xykon and Redcloak, which ended with Redcloak murdering Tsukiko. V also managed to convice Xykon to abandon Azure City for good, and V also freed O-Chul, allowing the Sapphire Guard to get involved in defending the other Gate. They got all of that, plus time to control V, for the cost of having to hire the Ghost Busters to retrieve Gononron, Haera and Jephton's souls for them. (Ooh, that would make a nice bonus comic!)

Now that you mention it, killing Xykon probably was a big hoped for item on the agenda from the beginning. I would also suggest they probably knew of the bloodline connection to Clan Draketooth.

The ideal result would have left Xykon/Redcloak dead, Clan Draketooth annihilated, and V their ace in the hole. Thus Draketooth Gate wide open to be seized at leisure. The Order might have been done with this quest at that point; if not they would have tried to contact Girard, and the IFCC would have two double agents in LG (Qarr & Sabine) and one in the Order (V) while the LG/Order dukes it out over Girard's Gate.

The IFCC was batting 2 for 3. They killed the Draketooths and got V, while failing to squash Team Evil. A well played game really.

[Adaon Nightwind]

Varsuvius is really a capable person. Already at guilt, maybe even realization and acceptance. S/He is an elf, still rather young; a possible course of action could be to dedicate a life to redemption, for example by raising as many victims as possible.. after the World is saved, of course.

[Killer Angel]

This comic needs a quote...
...are you the sort of man who would put the poison into his own goblet or his enemy's? Now, a clever man would put the poison into his own goblet, because he would know that only a great fool would reach for what he was given. I am not a great fool, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you. But you must have known I was not a great fool, you would have counted on it, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of me.

Vaarsuvius and Vizzini, they even share the same V.! :smallbiggrin:
(hope the end will be different...)

[SaintRidley]

They want to set the OotS, Team Evil and the Linear Guild against each other, in the same way that the Demons and Devils were set against each other in the Blood War (with the Daemons serving as mercenaries to the highest bidder; see the Planescape Campaign Setting for details.)

Not just mercenaries, but the puppeteers behind both sides.

[warmachine]

I've forgotten how exactly Blackwing knew the imp is working for the three fiends.

[NihhusHuotAliro]

Blackwing tricked Qarr into telling him way back in the strips where Mister Scruffy was shot.

It was a really neat moment for Blackwing, being able to contribute and do something actually pretty clever.

I'll see if I can find the strip, just give me a few minutes...

[NihhusHuotAliro]

[[http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0792.html Here it is!]]

[Sir_Leorik]

Not just mercenaries, but the puppeteers behind both sides.

That's a bit debatable. The Hellbound: the Blood War accessory indicates that the Yugoloths (aka Daemons) were manipulating the Ba'atezu (Devils) and Tannar'ri (Demons) into fighting each other, with the 'Loths profiting from the carnage. Other sourcebooks show the Blood War beginning in other ways, namely that the Lawful nature of the Devils and the Chaotic nature of the Demons was so incompatible that they began to fight. Asmodeus hoped to gain enough power from crushing the Demon Princes that he could launch an assault on the Upper Planes and avenge the "fallen" status of the Devils. Demogorgon was a major proponent of the Blood War on the Demonic side; he views himself as the Prince of Demons, and his divided personality leads him to be unable to tolerate the orderly and militaristic ways of the Devils.

In 4E the origins of the Blood War are very specific: Tharizdun, god of Entropy, corrupted part of the Elemental Chaos by inserting a shard of pure Chaos and Evil that he drew from within himself. That shard of Chaos and Evil became the heart of the Abyss. Asmodeus led an assault on the Abyss, and stole a fragment of the shard, which he fashioned into his Ruby Rod. He also sent the ArchDevil Graz'zt to hold onto territory taken in the initial assault. The Demons felt the absence of the piece of the shard, and have been trying to get it back ever since. Asmodeus wants to get the rest of the shard, in order to make himself more powerful. Graz'zt was corrupted by the Abyss and became a Demon Prince, albeit a less Chaotic one than most.

[NihhusHuotAliro]

I thought that The Nameless One started the Blood War, and that was why he was cursed?

[Sir_Leorik]

I thought that The Nameless One started the Blood War, and that was why he was cursed?

It's a cool story, but I don't know if it was meant to be canonical, even in Planescape. It isn't realy mentioned at all in 3.X products (the Blood War had petered out by the time the 3.0 Manual of the Planes came out) and like I mentioned, 4E gave a new origin for the Blood War which tied together Tharizdun's creation of the Abyss, Asmodeus' fall from grace for murdering He Who Was and Graz'zt's more Diabolical traits.

[Morty]

Besides, the Blood War is a good thing for the rest of the multiverse, since it keeps the two fiendish races occupied with fighting each other instead of attacking the Upper Planes. It's why the IFCC wants to end it. I can hardly imagine someone being cursed for starting it.

[FlawedParadigm]

Do foolish autocorrects count?

Everything counts. There's a backspace button for a reason. :p

[Nymrod]

So curious, any chance V has hit lvl 15? Cause as an evoker in V's position, I'd pick Sunburst as my free learned spell. And Sunburst would be enough to get rid of both vamps (and deal insane damage to xykon when the time comes, which is why I'd pick it if I were V, especially knowing xykon has a lot of energy immunities and resistances through items and being a lich).

[Adeptus]

Sunburst sounds like a good pick, though it has failed V before... even cast with epic power.

[Neoriceisgood]

I like V. :smallamused:

Curious to see what he'll do next.

[Snails]

That goes without saying. The IFCC are aware that their plan is not fool proof, but they have been taking steps to mitigate the possibility of failure.

The bottom line is that we do not have a strong case that the world would be better off if V stayed put. We only know that the IFCC is probably better off if V gets moving.

It is logically possible for both (A) the world is more likely to be safe if V gets moving, and (B) the IFCC is more likely to gain control of a Gate if V gets moving, to be true at the same time.

Such seems likely IMHO, because, based on the facts we know, Team Evil seems the most likely to prevail.

[endplanets]

This was a very meaty and well thought out strip. If you understood what was going on you learn the motivations and who-know-what of multiple people.
And we get to see V use his INT score to the fullest.

[Vectner]

I'm glad to see V getting hir stuff together. Now lets get this story line moving!

[AgentofHellfire]

I really, really like the way Rich does Qarr. In how Qarr is supposed to be a manipulator but in the end isn't actually all that bright or, consequently, good at the manipulation front. XD


And this comic...really just puts that on display.

[rgrekejin]

So curious, any chance V has hit lvl 15?

V has been at least level 15 since strip 716, where she uses an 8th-level spell. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0716.html)

[elros]

One thing is bothering me: what was Qarr trying to do? Is he trying to keep V away from OOTS so the LG can wipe them out?
If that's the case, then the "law of drama" suggests that V will tip the battle toward OOTS and allow them to win, right?

[Dire Lemming]

I would have thought that V lacked the wisdom for a discernation of that type. :smallwink:

(Please note that I'm referencing objective wisdom, regardless of their Wisdom stat.)

[pearl jam]

I would think that wisdom, defined by a number on a stat sheet, is about the most objective type of wisdom you could encounter.

[Dire Lemming]

I would think that wisdom, defined by a number on a stat sheet, is about the most objective type of wisdom you could encounter.
A Paladin of Miko's caliber requires high Wisdom for the appropriate divine spells. We saw how wise she was. :smallwink:

Take any stat and it isn't an objective derivation of what the stat as a word entails.
Intelligence, for instance, affects reasoning in its most basic definition; however, Vaarsuvius is largely lacking in social if not also emotional intelligence.

[Forikroder]

Go reread strip #668. The IFCC want to sieze the Gates. They say as much to Qarr in panel three. Director Lee apeases Tiamat by convincing her that the Familicide spell was part of an attempt to destroy the Gods of good. Which is what they'll be able to do with the Snarl, which can kill Gods.

They want to set the OotS, Team Evil and the Linear Guild against each other, in the same way that the Demons and Devils were set against each other in the Blood War (with the Daemons serving as mercenaries to the highest bidder; see the Planescape Campaign Setting for details.)

if they want the gates, why have did they go through so much effort to ensure that team evil and the OoTS were back in the game? why not let both times wallow in innefectiveness and take a gate while noones guarding it?

seeing the OoTS and TE whittle each other down is good but why wait all those months for that when they can take the gate without having to fight them?

and Girards gate has been unguarded for weeks why havent they done whatever they wanted to do?


The ideal result would have left Xykon/Redcloak dead, Clan Draketooth annihilated, and V their ace in the hole. Thus Draketooth Gate wide open to be seized at leisure. The Order might have been done with this quest at that point; if not they would have tried to contact Girard, and the IFCC would have two double agents in LG (Qarr & Sabine) and one in the Order (V) while the LG/Order dukes it out over Girard's Gate.

BUT they should ahve realsied that would never happen, V wasnt powerful enough to take out Xykon AND redcloak AND Tsukiko thats such a high risk gamble i cant imagine them taking it plus Cykon+RC+MiTD is stronger then the entire draketooth clan sicne Girard is dead

also look at what they say in panel 7 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html) they dont want Xykon dead they want him alive and wreaking havoc

smarter plan would ahve been to gather a force strong enough to jsut go conquer Kraagars gate

the gates factor into the IFCCs plan but i dont think there plan revolves around it

[Rogar Demonblud]

This is up there with the Shell Game strip for a character being back in action.

[rgrekejin]

if they want the gates, why have did they go through so much effort to ensure that team evil and the OoTS were back in the game? why not let both times wallow in innefectiveness and take a gate while noones guarding it?

seeing the OoTS and TE whittle each other down is good but why wait all those months for that when they can take the gate without having to fight them?

and Girards gate has been unguarded for weeks why havent they done whatever they wanted to do?


Because the IFCC doesn't know exactly where the gates are. Only the Order is actually in possession of that information.

No, I haven't forgotten that we've had this debate before. Yes, I know you think that Nale knows the exact coordinates of the gate, despite not ever showing any indication that he possesses such knowledge. But I thought I'd include the explanation here for completeness' sake.

[Forikroder]

Because the IFCC doesn't know exactly where the gates are. Only the Order is actually in possession of that information.

No, I haven't forgotten that we've had this debate before. Yes, I know you think that Nale knows the exact coordinates of the gate, despite not ever showing any indication that he possesses such knowledge. But I thought I'd include the explanation here for completeness' sake.

so, assuming you are correct, the IFCC figured it would be easier to take all of there enemies, put them back on there feet and into the action then just finding one for themselves?

at the very least they can get a general idea of where Kraagors gate is, and they could try to find Serini and use her to pinpoint the gates

also if they were after the gates theyd want the order to win so the gates would be as easy to nab as possible, in fact if V had killed Xykon then they may never have gone to the Desert and that gate would ahve been completely up for grabs

AND by that point the LG had already pinpointed where the gate was so theres no reason for them to say they dont want either side to win since if V had won then its checkmate for them

hell Sabine would ahve told them at least a few weeks before that they had found out where a gate was so obviously they didnt splice V so that he could lead them to one

[Chad30]

Actually I think if V had held onto Haerta, and had spells to protect against level drainage and such, that she could have won. Redcloak and Tsukiko weren't really able to do anything until Xykon used superb dispelling. From a story telling perspective, I'm sure it wasn't a coincidence that he just happened to lose the soul that was the necromancer before fighting the undead lich.

Of course he was still fighting like a sorcerer instead of a wizard, but I doubt Xykon would have won if V was as powerful as he was when he fought the dragon.

[Forikroder]

Actually I think if V had held onto Haerta, and had spells to protect against level drainage and such, that she could have won. Redcloak and Tsukiko weren't really able to do anything until Xykon used superb dispelling. From a story telling perspective, I'm sure it wasn't a coincidence that he just happened to lose the soul that was the necromancer before fighting the undead lich.

Of course he was still fighting like a sorcerer instead of a wizard, but I doubt Xykon would have won if V was as powerful as he was when he fought the dragon.

V did seem immune to level dain but the souls werent and i dont think it would be possible to buff them as well

only thing that would ahve changed is a disjunction instead of empowered sunburst

[Chad30]

Well hopefully she'd have a negative energy absorption spell, or something to make her immune. If Haerta had something to keep them from losing high level spells so quickly, they'd have a better chance.

[Forikroder]

Well hopefully she'd have a negative energy absorption spell, or something to make her immune. If Haerta had something to keep them from losing high level spells so quickly, they'd have a better chance.

and how is V supposed to buff a soul that has no physical body? and why would he? he was in the biggest hurry of his life and he didnt even comprehend that the souls could be level drained

when Xykon hit him he just laughed it off despite him actually losing epic level spell slots without him knowing

the only difference if Haerta was there is instead of a sunburst it would be a disjunction

[Chad30]

If one spell can effect a soul, another spell can. I'm not sure why things happened the way they did, but if the difference would have been so little, why would Rich have him lose all his necromancy spells? Besides, from the discription I read of what disjunction does, it would have kept Xykon from using greater dispell. I'd say that's a big difference, since that's the main move that let him win.

Edit: Actually I reread it, and it just said ending the spell as a dispell magic does. I read that slightly different the first time.

[Kish]

Xykon didn't use Greater Dispel anyway. He used Superb Dispelling, a spell more powerful than Disjunction itself.

[Forikroder]

If one spell can effect a soul, another spell can. I'm not sure why things happened the way they did, but if the difference would have been so little, why would Rich have him lose all his necromancy spells? Besides, from the discription I read of what disjunction does, it would have kept Xykon from using greater dispell. I'd say that's a big difference, since that's the main move that let him win.

Edit: Actually I reread it, and it just said ending the spell as a dispell magic does. I read that slightly different the first time.

Haerta may come back its possible shes a powerful enough necromancer to raise herself from the dead (or at least find a host of some sort)

also it sets up V losing his other 2 splices by getting hit by the rock

[Cerlis]

Except that the speech the IFCC gave V was complete baloney. They were scrying on V (and probably the rest of the OotS) ever since Sabine told them about the Gates back in Volume 3. They were waiting for an opportunity to turn one of the Order's members into a pawn, and concluded that V was the best candidate. They then waited for V to try to sell his/her soul and pounced. Their goal is to seize control of one of the Gates and summon the Snarl into the Upper Planes. (They probably know more about Redcloak's plans then anyone else but Redcloak and the Dark One.)

In any event, you're not even interpreting their lie properly. Their "business model" wasn't splicing V with three souls, it was showing that Demons, Devils and Daemons could work together. They already know that to be true. Their actual "proof of concept" will be the destruction of the Upper Planes by the Snarl, which they hope will unite the fiends into one race. That's what they want: to kill every god and angel of good alignment and then enslave all mortals under the heel of a united fiend-kind.

When dealing with manipulative people the thing "they get" (V's soul) is rarely what they actually want. Based of what they said would happen and what actually happened (the fact that the Soul Splice was literally tied to V's will) meant that V could have only retained it for a few seconds.

The purpose of the whole "Demons devils and Daemons" working together was to achieve a product that only THEY could give. it would have been worthless if their product failed. As things stand when they show other potential candidates what V was able to do in a few scant hours that they are going to have every ambitious soul coming to them. You can imagine the Anarchy (which is what they want) in the material and other planes if you have people temporarily gaining 3 sets of epic level magics at a time and having their way with reality.

Also the thing about getting Xykon off his boney butt.

Yes it is entirely possible that the Fiends have some way of calling in their debt early. But i believe the aggreement was stated as "As we just agreed verbally" or some other wording of that, in which V aggreed. And that aggreement was that after he dies they get his soul for the amount of time he held onto their soul. Sure they could reinterpret their contract since it wasn't an exact wording , and they may indeed do so.

But there is no evidence to suggest they can or will. Its mostly a bunch of "these are really evil manipulative bastards so nothing they say is true." Sure its possible, but something being possible doesn't mean its going to happen.

[thatSeniorGuy]

... And that agreement was that after he dies they get his soul for the amount of time he held onto their soul....

Link (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0633.html)
Using Purple, Orange and Yellow for the fiends (because I can never remember which is which).
:vaarsuvius: And for this, you would have eternal dominion over my immortal soul once I died?
P: What? No! No, No, No! [Emphasis mine]
Y: How would that be fair?
O: No, all we ask for is an even trade.
P: Each one of use will get your soul for the same amount of time that you are under the effects of their Soul Splice.
Y: So, maintain all three splices for an hour, your soul spends one hour with me, then one hour with each of my two associates.
O: Exact order of custody to be determined at a later point.

[Edited in response to Forikroder's comment, which is fair enough.]
V suggests that the fiends will get hir soul after hir death, which is immediately rejected by the fiends. They then stipulate that part of the contract, at no point mentioning when this will take place. So it is entirely valid that they can take control hir soul whenever they want.

[Amphiox]

If V had kept Haerta AND had fought that fight intelligently (say, like preparing against energy draining attacks which he knows Xykon has before teleporting in and swinging about wildly) s/he may well have won.

Also, Haerta is canonically the strongest (read: higher level?) of the splices, so V lost more than just one third of the epic-level magic when s/he lost her, and it is even possible that Haerta if she had been there would not have lost all her epic spell slots like the other two, because she's likely to be higher level than they were.

But the way V fought, s/he could have had ten epic splices and probably would still have lost. Within the subtext of Xykon's famous "power is power" speech is that no matter how much power you think you have access to, it doesn't count as your power if you don't use it properly.

[Forikroder]

Link (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0633.html)
Using Purple, Orange and Yellow for the fiends (because I can never remember which is which).
:vaarsuvius: And for this, you would have eternal dominion over my immortal soul once I died
P: What? No! No, No, No! [Emphasis mine]
Y: How would that be fair?
O: No, all we ask for is an even trade.
P: Each one of use will get your soul for the same amount of time that you are under the effects of their Soul Splice.
Y: So, maintain all three splices for an hour, your soul spends one hour with me, then one hour with each of my two associates.
O: Exact order of custody to be determined at a later point.

V suggests that the fiends will get hir soul after hir death, which is immediately rejected by the fiends. They then stipulate that part of the contract, at no point mentioning when this will take place. So it is entirely valid that they can take control whenever they want.

except noone has proved that owning someones soul means they have to be your puppet

and later when they were talking to Quarrrr they reffered to his soul as the free soup or salad

[Chad30]

If V had kept Haerta AND had fought that fight intelligently (say, like preparing against energy draining attacks which he knows Xykon has before teleporting in and swinging about wildly) s/he may well have won.

Also, Haerta is canonically the strongest (read: higher level?) of the splices, so V lost more than just one third of the epic-level magic when s/he lost her, and it is even possible that Haerta if she had been there would not have lost all her epic spell slots like the other two, because she's likely to be higher level than they were.

But the way V fought, s/he could have had ten epic splices and probably would still have lost. Within the subtext of Xykon's famous "power is power" speech is that no matter how much power you think you have access to, it doesn't count as your power if you don't use it properly.

Xykon does make a good point about power.

[Zmeoaice]

I was hoping that the imp would spill the vampiric beans.

I don't think Qarr knows about Durkula.

[Cerlis]

Link (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0633.html)
Using Purple, Orange and Yellow for the fiends (because I can never remember which is which).
:vaarsuvius: And for this, you would have eternal dominion over my immortal soul once I died?
P: What? No! No, No, No! [Emphasis mine]
Y: How would that be fair?
O: No, all we ask for is an even trade.
P: Each one of use will get your soul for the same amount of time that you are under the effects of their Soul Splice.
Y: So, maintain all three splices for an hour, your soul spends one hour with me, then one hour with each of my two associates.
O: Exact order of custody to be determined at a later point.

[Edited in response to Forikroder's comment, which is fair enough.]
V suggests that the fiends will get hir soul after hir death, which is immediately rejected by the fiends. They then stipulate that part of the contract, at no point mentioning when this will take place. So it is entirely valid that they can take control hir soul whenever they want.

I said it was entirely possible that they could TWIST those words. However, all standard rules of conversation* point to them countering the "eternal dominion" aspect (and i dont know why you are emphasising the fact that they aren't asking for eternal dominion, or the fact that such emphasis is yours).

*I'm no english major, but I believe that the notion of adverbs, identifying the subject, as well as which subjects/verbs certain abjectives/adverbs modify.... would show that since the first thing they talked about regarding the deal was the Duration, that the original interjection was interjecting the notion of the Duration.



-----------Again, they COULD have worded it such in order to have leeway in the contract they suppisidly signed with V. But it would be like someone in the world of transformers seeing a suspicious car and assuming it is an Autobot. Sure there is a lot of premise to be suspicious of strange vehicles, just as there is premise to not trust what evil monsters are saying. But logically since there is no evidence the best you can do is say "this is a possibility"

[SaintRidley]

It's a linguistic bait and switch. One of them says "No" objecting to everything V said, another elaborates specifying while the first did not, and the third sets up the sell. Then the first outlines, in detail, terms contradicting the part of what V says which only began to be specified as point of interest by the second, and the others elaborate and corroborate that. It feels complete and cohesive because it is so perfectly synchronized that we are not meant to notice that while they appear to act as a union they are each individually pulling strings. They have deliberately structured their objection in a way that feels like and reads like a single, continuous thought. Their chosen appearance, their speaking style, everything about the IFCC directors is a performance built to make it seem like any one of them speaks the mind of all of them. It hides their individuality, and that is where the trap is - they are individuals, no matter how easy it is to forget, and that's what lets them play this game at this level. I do not believe a lone devil could have pulled this off.

And it deflects attention from the actually important matter at hand. The whole goal is to get V away from any line of inquiry that touches on when. Duration is safe, duration they can use as a Trojan horse to slip in their objection to the question of when unnoticed, duration allows them to elaborate and make a statement which feels as if it addresses V's objection. They can leave when unstated, and V, like any mortal, will unconsciously fill in the unobserved blank - it goes beyond even thinking "Fiends always take your soul after you die"; it is so assumed it's enormously difficult to conceive of it being any other way. And that's exactly what any fiend wants when making a deal. They want you to assume and they want to play with your assumptions, because your assumptions can be manipulated in order to make the deal happen. V assuming they would have V's soul for eternity was a risky assumption, something they needed to dispel to make the deal happen.V coupling that assumption with the "after death" part? A convenient way to dispel one assumption (and strengthen the chances of the deal) while seeming to uphold the other but never actually touching it, always keeping the hidden option open.

A master class in temptation indeed.


To take your Transformers analogy, this is more like being in a parking lot and seeing two cars and having Megatron show up. And you tell Megatron that if he's here, then those two cars are almost certainly agents of his. And Megatron tells you that no, you are mistaken. That car? That one's an Autobot, one he'll be taking care of before it can relay the information gained in overhearing this conversation to Optimus Prime. Don't worry about a thing, Megatron will take care of the Autobot presence. And all the while the other car is a normal car. The other Decepticon, of course, is that third car you didn't even notice, all the way across the lot and parked next to the building so you didn't even realize it was in the lot.

[thatSeniorGuy]

Well, I was planning on coming here and clarifying my statement; now I see that SaintRidley went and absolutely owned it.

@ Cerlis, were this an ordinary conversation between two people than I might agree with you; however, we're dealing with fiends, and this is exactly the sort of manipulation they do. A certainty, no, but a very strong possibility. (Also, I was a bit rushed when I made the post and I didn't get my point across very well, my apologies about that).

[Bulldog Psion]

There would be little point, in terms of either their avowed purpose of controlling the Gates for their own purposes, or of the story, if all the IFCC wanted was to get V's soul for a few minutes each after he's dead.

It would be dull, boring, and pointless from a storytelling viewpoint to grab his soul and torture it a bit after he's already kicked the bucket.

It's exciting and interesting to have the elf "taken over" by the IFCC at a crucial moment.

Guess which one my money is on as being what the fiends are looking for, and what is actually going to happen?

[skaddix]

While V is alive makes sense simply because what good would it be to have V's soul for a couple hours before letting it continue on to another plane. I just don't see any benefit they derive from a few hours of torture.

[Proud Tortoise]

Save the day, V!

[happycrow]

I still expect to see the IFCC negotiating with Tarquin shortly, with Kilkil analyzing all the fine print and big words to keep Tarquin where he wants/needs to be.

[Forikroder]

While V is alive makes sense simply because what good would it be to have V's soul for a couple hours before letting it continue on to another plane. I just don't see any benefit they derive from a few hours of torture.

waht benefit is there to having a free boul of soup before your main course?

to kill a few minutes while waiting for the real thing

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html they call it a free soup or salad, then say they have a 50-50 chance of winding up with it anyway HEAVILY implying that they have no actual plans for Vs soul

[Sir_Leorik]

if they want the gates, why have did they go through so much effort to ensure that team evil and the OoTS were back in the game? why not let both times wallow in innefectiveness and take a gate while noones guarding it?


Because they can't enter the Material Plane to seize one of the Gates! Unlike Xykon, Redcloak, Tarquin or Malack, Lee Neero and Ceedrik are not native to the Material Plane. They have a limited ability to Plane Shift from the Lower Planes in order to tempt mortals and make deals with them. They can't do so otherwise.

Why this is so has not been made clear. One possibility is that they operate under restrictions placed upon them by the Archdevils, Demon Princes and Ultrodaemons, who might be unsure of why Lee, Neero and Ceedrik are working together. Sure they claim to desire an end to the Blood War and a new era of fiends working together to invade the Upper Planes, destroy the Powers of Good and enslave mortal-kind, but only an addle-pated sod would believe that. No, they're probably planning something, and until the Archdevils, Demon Princes and Ultrodaemons know the Dark of it, they'd be barmy to the Spire to let these three loose cannons go gallivanting around the Material Plane as they wish.

Another possibility is that Lee, Neero and Ceedrik needed to give up some of their ability to Plane Shift freely in order to gain more power. Maybe they made a pact with a Vestige, or drank from some dark chalice; whatever the case they are now limited in their ability to Plane Shift.

Whatever the reason, they need minions like Qarr and Sabine, as well as pawns like Nale and V, to carry out their plans. The IFCC needed to get the OotS and Team Evil moving towards the Gate, while making sure that neither can seize it. The Linear Guild's role is to keep the OotS off balance, long enough for V to get within a few feet of the Gate. V is an unwitting double agent for the IFCC. They need V alive to make their plans work. But they have limited amount of time in which they can control V, so they need Qarr to manipulate V into heading towards the Gate.

Too bad Qarr is awful at his job...

[Samalpetey]

if they want the gates, why have did they go through so much effort to ensure that team evil and the OoTS were back in the game? why not let both times wallow in innefectiveness and take a gate while noones guarding it?

seeing the OoTS and TE whittle each other down is good but why wait all those months for that when they can take the gate without having to fight them?

and Girards gate has been unguarded for weeks why havent they done whatever they wanted to do?

When V was invisible in xykons tower and Qarr suggested Plane Shifting him/her out of there, didn't one of the fiends say they could only act on the mortal plane while making a deal? That would explain why they didn't take a gate themselves.

EDIT: Feth, ninja'd

[Forikroder]

Too bad Qarr is awful at his job...

Quarr is not awful at his job, failing to fool the smartedt person in the comic (and that failure actually causing the end result your lie was trying to achieve ANYWAY) is not failure it is a qualified sucess

also just because they cannot doesnt mean **** they could ahve had the LG at girards gate since FAmilicide (actually even before that) but they didnt they jsut let them sit in the capital

they could ahve SAbine working with a competent group of adveturures but they didnt they specifically chose incompetent adveturers

they have never actually done anything that in any way shows they want to capture a gate

[Rig]

Given that Vaarsuvius has been obsessing over this ever since, and is now being productive with that, and the possibility that Qarr is smarter then he might appear, I see things getting very interesting :D. She'll have clicked over the imprecise terms of the contract even if blackwing hasn't, and as for Qarr, he has some salt to display.

Also!


V has been at least level 15 since strip 716, where she uses an 8th-level spell. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0716.html)

Seems she may have leveled up with that familicide. Planned or not, i wonder how it will work.

[Forikroder]

Given that Vaarsuvius has been obsessing over this ever since, and is now being productive with that, and the possibility that Qarr is smarter then he might appear, I see things getting very interesting :D. She'll have clicked over the imprecise terms of the contract even if blackwing hasn't, and as for Qarr, he has some salt to display.

Also!



Seems she may have leveled up with that familicide. Planned or not, i wonder how it will work.

not really Vs ECL was so high during familicide she would have barely got any experience at all for even the strongest BDs so any XP he gained would be miniscule it would ahve already been 99.9% of the way to the next level to have actually leveled up

[Sir_Leorik]

To take your Transformers analogy, this is more like being in a parking lot and seeing two cars and having Megatron show up. And you tell Megatron that if he's here, then those two cars are almost certainly agents of his. And Megatron tells you that no, you are mistaken. That car? That one's an Autobot, one he'll be taking care of before it can relay the information gained in overhearing this conversation to Optimus Prime. Don't worry about a thing, Megatron will take care of the Autobot presence. And all the while the other car is a normal car. The other Decepticon, of course, is that third car you didn't even notice, all the way across the lot and parked next to the building so you didn't even realize it was in the lot.

SaintRidley, you just made my day! :smallsmile:

Basically fiends (and Decepticons) deal in misdirection, deception, and trickery. Continuing SaintRidley's analogy, many times in the various Transformers continuities, Megatron, Starscream, Swindle, Scorponok and other Decepticons have made deals with humans. Dr. Arkeville, Sean Berger, President-for-Life Abdul Fakkadi, Lord Mo Zarak, Mr. Dante, Isaac Sumdac, the Angry Archer; the list goes on and on. The humans always get the raw end of the deal (with the occaisional exception of Lord Zarak in some continuities). They lie, they use half truths, they use misdirection, they leave Ravage or Laserbeak lying around in plain sight to record conversations, they create human replicants to infiltrate governments and industries, they repurpose benign human inventions into WMDs. And you never know how they are going to betray the humans, only that they inevitably will. Megatron, Starscream (except in Armada), Swindle, Scorponok (pre-binary bonding); they consider humans to be a type of vermin, infesting a world that they need to acheive victory against their real enemies: the Autobots.

The IFCC views mortals the same way. They need mortal pawns, and mortal souls (to create new fiends), but their real goal is to unite the fiendish races into a single force able to storm the Upper Planes. They honestly don't care about V's soul, except insofar as V is a perfect pawn for their plans. So they lied to V, used misdirection, spoke to V one after the other to confuse him/her, targeted V when V was most vulnerable (had not tranced in weeks, worried about mate and adopted children), then tried to convince V they were honest brokers by providing a highly implausible alternative to dealing with them. Then they went for the jugular: they targeted V's biggest weakness: Pride. V has always been the most arrogant member of the OotS, taking offense at Elan and Belkar's jibes about wizards (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0126.html), not being (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0180.html) promptly restored (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0185.html) to Elven form (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0186.html) when turned into a lizard, and being passed over in favor of Roy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0031.html) by a hungry mind flayer (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheLastOfTheseIsNotLikeTheOthers). The IFCC new how to get V riled up and V accepted the deal for the wrong reasons (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html).

[Aquatosic]

This is why V is a fantastic character. It's not easy to write intelligent characters who actually act intelligently. Look at how many Hollywood movies feature alleged geniuses who make incredibly stupid decisions because the plot says so.

But scenes like this and V's battle with Xykon (post splice, where s/he actually uses smarts to get the upper hand) show that his/her INT score is more than just a number on a character sheet.

I know, I wish there were more truly intelligent heroes in the media, like Artemis Fowl or Foaly or Mr. Fantastic. It would also be nice if they didn't have to make them all so arrogant.

[Forikroder]

SaintRidley, you just made my day! :smallsmile:

Basically fiends (and Decepticons) deal in misdirection, deception, and trickery. Continuing SaintRidley's analogy, many times in the various Transformers continuities, Megatron, Starscream, Swindle, Scorponok and other Decepticons have made deals with humans. Dr. Arkeville, Sean Berger, President-for-Life Abdul Fakkadi, Lord Mo Zarak, Mr. Dante, Isaac Sumdac, the Angry Archer; the list goes on and on. The humans always get the raw end of the deal (with the occaisional exception of Lord Zarak in some continuities). They lie, they use half truths, they use misdirection, they leave Ravage or Laserbeak lying around in plain sight to record conversations, they create human replicants to infiltrate governments and industries, they repurpose benign human inventions into WMDs. And you never know how they are going to betray the humans, only that they inevitably will. Megatron, Starscream (except in Armada), Swindle, Scorponok (pre-binary bonding); they consider humans to be a type of vermin, infesting a world that they need to acheive victory against their real enemies: the Autobots.

The IFCC views mortals the same way. They need mortal pawns, and mortal souls (to create new fiends), but their real goal is to unite the fiendish races into a single force able to storm the Upper Planes. They honestly don't care about V's soul, except insofar as V is a perfect pawn for their plans. So they lied to V, used misdirection, spoke to V one after the other to confuse him/her, targeted V when V was most vulnerable (had not tranced in weeks, worried about mate and adopted children), then tried to convince V they were honest brokers by providing a highly implausible alternative to dealing with them. Then they went for the jugular: they targeted V's biggest weakness: Pride. V has always been the most arrogant member of the OotS, taking offense at Elan and Belkar's jibes about wizards (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0126.html), not being (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0180.html) promptly restored (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0185.html) to Elven form (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0186.html) when turned into a lizard, and being passed over in favor of Roy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0031.html) by a hungry mind flayer (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheLastOfTheseIsNotLikeTheOthers). The IFCC new how to get V riled up and V accepted the deal for the wrong reasons (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html).

none of which at all adresses the fact that they said they dont care about Vs soul, they did not say this where V could hear or where any of there enemies could be eavesdropping, they did not say this to trick and confuse and manipulate

they sait to Quar to get him up to speed on what "it" is so he could work with them

[Sir_Leorik]

also just because they cannot doesnt mean **** they could ahve had the LG at girards gate since FAmilicide (actually even before that) but they didnt they jsut let them sit in the capital

they could ahve SAbine working with a competent group of adveturures but they didnt they specifically chose incompetent adveturers


I don't think that the IFCC know the exact locations of the Gates. Only Xykon does, because he decoded Serini's diary, triangulating from Lirian's Glade and the Dungeon of Dorukan. The IFCC did not know the Gates existed before Sabine tipped them off. She learned the info second hand, from Nale, who was not given the specific locations. Shojo only gave that info to Roy (remember how desperate V was to reunite with Haley, because Hinjo didn't know where the Gates were?). And Shojo was actually wrong about the location of Girard's Gate. Nale's plan of getting his step-mother to help Z'zditri scry for the Gates was a good one and furthered the IFCC's plans. It also allowed the Linear Guild to run into the OotS and create more conflict to slow the OotS down. The IFCC's plans are proceeding just as they have foreseen...

[Deepbluediver]

Look at how many Hollywood movies feature alleged geniuses who make incredibly stupid decisions because the plot says so.

It's not just that smart people do dumb things, ocasionally, people make mistakes all the time. It's that supposedly smart characters will act in complete contravention of common sense, repeatedly, and no one calls them out on it or thinks to try and mitigate their rampant rampage of stupidity.

[Sir_Leorik]

none of which at all adresses the fact that they said they dont care about Vs soul, they did not say this where V could hear or where any of there enemies could be eavesdropping, they did not say this to trick and confuse and manipulate

they sait to Quar to get him up to speed on what "it" is so he could work with them

Getting V's soul for an eternity, after V dies, to torment as they see fit, is a bonus. Getting V's soul for 44 minutes and sixteen seconds while V is alive, is intrinsic to their plans.

There a few ways this can work out. They can pull V's soul from his/her body and replace it with an evil soul, or a fiendish spirit, which fulfills a specific task. Each second that occurs deducts from V's debt. (While V's soul is in their possession they get to torment him/her, probably with a look at just how many dragons, humans and others died from that familicide spell. Or maybe they'll show V images of Inkyrious's cottage, and taunt V about how he/she'll never see the children again. Or they'll play "Celine Dion: Live, in Concert" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0258.html). Yeah, that's probably what they'll do.)

They could also Dominate V, send illusions to trick him/her, or just telekinetically control V's body. But the main point is that they will be using V as a Trojan, betraying the OotS from within.

[Forikroder]

I don't think that the IFCC know the exact locations of the Gates. Only Xykon does, because he decoded Serini's diary, triangulating from Lirian's Glade and the Dungeon of Dorukan. The IFCC did not know the Gates existed before Sabine tipped them off. She learned the info second hand, from Nale, who was not given the specific locations. Shojo only gave that info to Roy (remember how desperate V was to reunite with Haley, because Hinjo didn't know where the Gates were?). And Shojo was actually wrong about the location of Girard's Gate. Nale's plan of getting his step-mother to help Z'zditri scry for the Gates was a good one and furthered the IFCC's plans. It also allowed the Linear Guild to run into the OotS and create more conflict to slow the OotS down. The IFCC's plans are proceeding just as they have foreseen...

if they were after the gates then before they made the deal with V Sabine already knew the exact location of Girards gate

there plan is proceeding perfectly assuming there not interested in nabbing a gate themselves


Getting V's soul for an eternity, after V dies, to torment as they see fit, is a bonus. Getting V's soul for 44 minutes and sixteen seconds while V is alive, is intrinsic to their plans.

you seem to have a terribly hard time following a link and reading so im going to write exactly what was said here so you have no excuse to ignore it anymore

Q: I knew it! you werent after the elfs soul, not really. those terms were too good

F: Yes, the elfs soul is little more then the free soup-or-salad to our main course of wickedness

noone goes to a restaurant for free soup or salad thats jsut a lucky bonus

[Kish]

none of which at all adresses the fact that they said they dont care about Vs soul, they did not say this where V could hear or where any of there enemies could be eavesdropping, they did not say this to trick and confuse and manipulate
They said they didn't care about getting Vaarsuvius' soul.

They didn't say they didn't care about being able to control Vaarsuvius.

They did, explicitly, say that the amount of time they had control of Vaarsuvius was "sufficient for our purposes."

Your argument hinges on profoundly selective reading. They said their plan wasn't "about the elf's soul," and so, you declare, it wasn't about anything to do with the terms of their deal with Vaarsuvius; they said the time that had was sufficient for their purposes, but, you declare, that doesn't actually mean anything.

[Shale]

But they still have a plan for it; the 44:16 is "sufficient for our purposes," which means they have a purpose for it. Just because it might not be as big of a deal as getting Xykon moving again doesn't mean it won't have an impact.

[Forikroder]

They said they didn't care about getting Vaarsuvius' soul.

They didn't say they didn't care about being able to control Vaarsuvius.

but if they didnt get Vs soul then they wouldnt be able to control him...


But they still have a plan for it; the 44:16 is "sufficient for our purposes," which means they have a purpose for it. Just because it might not be as big of a deal as getting Xykon moving again doesn't mean it won't have an impact.

getting Xykon moving was jsut a means to an end believe it or not the IFCC did not form just to make sure Xykon and the OoTS fight over the gates for all eternity they have a plan and in that plan Vs soul is of little consequence, nice to have but not needed at all

[F.Harr]

"Poor Durkon! May your corpse be interred by the tombs of your pappy, grandpappy, great-grandpappy, etc. (Preferably with a wooden stake driven through your heart, your mouth filled with holy wafers and your lips sewn shut with silver thread. ) "

Can you make silver thread?


Can I have a piece of that action? Qarr's been bugging me to pay him the money I owe him from the last poker game... :smallcool:

I love it! :)


Do foolish autocorrects count?

:)


Varsuvius is really a capable person. Already at guilt, maybe even realization and acceptance. S/He is an elf, still rather young; a possible course of action could be to dedicate a life to redemption, for example by raising as many victims as possible.. after the World is saved, of course.

Can wizards raise the dead?


Blackwing tricked Qarr into telling him way back in the strips where Mister Scruffy was shot.

It was a really neat moment for Blackwing, being able to contribute and do something actually pretty clever.

I'll see if I can find the strip, just give me a few minutes...

Not just a bird-brain.


Everything counts. There's a backspace button for a reason. :p

Ha! :)


I like V. :smallamused:

Curious to see what he'll do next.

It'll be great!


This was a very meaty and well thought out strip. If you understood what was going on you learn the motivations and who-know-what of multiple people.
And we get to see V use his INT score to the fullest.

Ain't it grand! :)


I really, really like the way Rich does Qarr. In how Qarr is supposed to be a manipulator but in the end isn't actually all that bright or, consequently, good at the manipulation front. XD


And this comic...really just puts that on display.

Well, he was good enough for Kubota. But that could say something about Kubota more than Qarr


It's a linguistic bait and switch. One of them says "No" objecting to everything V said, another elaborates specifying while the first did not, and the third sets up the sell. Then the first outlines, in detail, terms contradicting the part of what V says which only began to be specified as point of interest by the second, and the others elaborate and corroborate that. It feels complete and cohesive because it is so perfectly synchronized that we are not meant to notice that while they appear to act as a union they are each individually pulling strings. They have deliberately structured their objection in a way that feels like and reads like a single, continuous thought. Their chosen appearance, their speaking style, everything about the IFCC directors is a performance built to make it seem like any one of them speaks the mind of all of them. It hides their individuality, and that is where the trap is - they are individuals, no matter how easy it is to forget, and that's what lets them play this game at this level. I do not believe a lone devil could have pulled this off.

And it deflects attention from the actually important matter at hand. The whole goal is to get V away from any line of inquiry that touches on when. Duration is safe, duration they can use as a Trojan horse to slip in their objection to the question of when unnoticed, duration allows them to elaborate and make a statement which feels as if it addresses V's objection. They can leave when unstated, and V, like any mortal, will unconsciously fill in the unobserved blank - it goes beyond even thinking "Fiends always take your soul after you die"; it is so assumed it's enormously difficult to conceive of it being any other way. And that's exactly what any fiend wants when making a deal. They want you to assume and they want to play with your assumptions, because your assumptions can be manipulated in order to make the deal happen. V assuming they would have V's soul for eternity was a risky assumption, something they needed to dispel to make the deal happen.V coupling that assumption with the "after death" part? A convenient way to dispel one assumption (and strengthen the chances of the deal) while seeming to uphold the other but never actually touching it, always keeping the hidden option open.

A master class in temptation indeed.


To take your Transformers analogy, this is more like being in a parking lot and seeing two cars and having Megatron show up. And you tell Megatron that if he's here, then those two cars are almost certainly agents of his. And Megatron tells you that no, you are mistaken. That car? That one's an Autobot, one he'll be taking care of before it can relay the information gained in overhearing this conversation to Optimus Prime. Don't worry about a thing, Megatron will take care of the Autobot presence. And all the while the other car is a normal car. The other Decepticon, of course, is that third car you didn't even notice, all the way across the lot and parked next to the building so you didn't even realize it was in the lot.

Nicely analized.

[Liliet]

V. V is coming. :smallcool:

By the way, funny detail: I like it when they call V "her" in the posts and dislike when they call V "him", but when I myself am writing, I default to "him" and have to correct myself every time.

I <3 V. Really. V is strong enough to pull virself together and go and do something as soon as something interrupts vir sobbing in the corner, and still unwilling to take an opportunity to blame someone else for vir crime. That`s 18+ Int, and that`s what makes V an awesome character.
I guess V will be acting out vir Int score, rather than vir (comparatively small) Wis score as V usually does for quite some time. No more emotions left. Well, that or V goes crazy once again as soon as V learns about Durkon. But there won`t be any more "taking V out of fight beforehand to not overshadow the others". It`s vir time to shine, something V has deserved from the beginning. Every time V had an on-screen opportunity to cast in battle it was crazy awesome - Spiked Tentacles of Forced Intrusion, Explosive Runes, Suggestion, Mass Enlarge Person, Crushing Despair... probably vir soul splice time was the only exception, it was disgusting and disturbing... and then again: Explosive Runes on Xykon`s phylactery, Dominate Person...

Now V gets an opportunity to really save the day, solve a major arc and so on. Go Vaarsuvius! ^.^

(well, I really hope Rich won`t have Archfiends take him over now. It would just be unfair, even more unfair than survivor`s guilt after fighting for a foreign city ve owes nothing to and then a dragon coming to punish vir for something adventurers have always been doing without a lot of consequences)

and just a random thought: V looks so cool with this ponytail, and even cooler in low hp, all messed up. Love.

WOOO VAARSUVIUS!!!! *waving a flag with V`s pokerface on it*

[Chad30]

I like V too. I guess I default to her because of the longer hair, and to keep Haley from being the only girl of the group. If others want to say him, or use some word that's supposed to be a gender neutral pronoun that's fine.

[Snails]

Quarr is not awful at his job, failing to fool the smartedt person in the comic (and that failure actually causing the end result your lie was trying to achieve ANYWAY) is not failure it is a qualified sucess

Actually, I do think Qarr is pretty awful, because he ends up revealing more than intended. Showing up and badgering V with barely a fig leaf of an angle is not very sharp.

To be fair, he succeeded with his presumable key objective: getting V on the move on. That V might deduce other things was probably, as you suggest, inevitable.

Ultimately Qarr needs to come up with better lies, both because V might eventually deduce something more important or choose to simply smoke Qarr.

[JackRackham]

Getting V's soul for an eternity, after V dies, to torment as they see fit, is a bonus. Getting V's soul for 44 minutes and sixteen seconds while V is alive, is intrinsic to their plans.

There a few ways this can work out. They can pull V's soul from his/her body and replace it with an evil soul, or a fiendish spirit, which fulfills a specific task. Each second that occurs deducts from V's debt. (While V's soul is in their possession they get to torment him/her, probably with a look at just how many dragons, humans and others died from that familicide spell. Or maybe they'll show V images of Inkyrious's cottage, and taunt V about how he/she'll never see the children again. Or they'll play "Celine Dion: Live, in Concert" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0258.html). Yeah, that's probably what they'll do.)

They could also Dominate V, send illusions to trick him/her, or just telekinetically control V's body. But the main point is that they will be using V as a Trojan, betraying the OotS from within.

Most of what you're describing has nothing to do with V's soul. You're talking about them possessing his/her body. If anything, getting access to V's soul would allow them to transfer V's consciousness to another body, or use V to boost some other character's abilities via soul-splice. There was no mention of control of V, however, only of POSSESSION of his/her soul. The fiends controlling the decisions made by said soul is technically not part of the deal.

[Liliet]

I like V too. I guess I default to her because of the longer hair, and to keep Haley from being the only girl of the group. If others want to say him, or use some word that's supposed to be a gender neutral pronoun that's fine.

Actually I have an inner feeling that V is a guy, and that vir partner is a guy too. However, I`d HATE to see it proven in-comic. V is androgynous, and that`s cool.

I guess the reason why I want V to be an un-revealed guy is because if V is a girl, V is rather un-pretty and is dressing to be undistinguishable from guy in a world ruled by guys... it IS medieval fantasy, after all. That`s quite understandable, but it`s more weakness than strength. Not stressing your femininity when in the minds of others femininity equals meekness and you want to look all-powerful to the others is just... not vaarsuvius-y enough.
If V is a guy, on the other hand, then ve`s a guy completely ignoring vir "natural superiority" (this is medieval fantasy, and we in real world still haven`t quite gotten rid of that) and dressing to be undistinguishable from girl even though in this world it`s also not cool (remember Roy`s reaction to the famous belt?), and just ignoring the whole concept of gender altogether. It`s strength, and it`s cool.

And I don`t want it revealed because I love V as a symbol of ambiguity, and "ve" is really cool pronoun.

[SaintRidley]

Most of what you're describing has nothing to do with V's soul. You're talking about them possessing his/her body. If anything, getting access to V's soul would allow them to transfer V's consciousness to another body, or use V to boost some other character's abilities via soul-splice. There was no mention of control of V, however, only of POSSESSION of his/her soul. The fiends controlling the decisions made by said soul is technically not part of the deal.

Emphasis mine. You just brought up the word that outlines how slippery with language the IFCC can be. Imply possession of V's soul and mean possession of V via the soul. Never doubt the possibilities of possession in the hands of a fiend.

Of course, any time they call in their debt they are able to be on the Prime Material. So call in the debt, show up. If controlling V's soul does not confer control of V's body (I'm doubtful of that point, but let's go with it), simply take V's soul out. Put in any soul you have actual control of, then splice V back onto that. Or splice V to yourself (I imagine the IFCC directors will be calling in their time individually in order to maximize the possibility of their plans working) and get to work while possessing V's body..

[Kish]

I guess the reason why I want V to be an un-revealed guy is because if V is a girl, V is rather un-pretty and is dressing to be undistinguishable from guy in a world ruled by guys... it IS medieval fantasy, after all.

I see no indication that the world of OotS is dominated by males. Other than the much larger number of males onstage--which the author has stated is just him screwing up (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15058416&postcount=477).

More than that, I think "Vaarsuvius deliberately dresses to appear artificially androgynous" is a huge assumption, only just short of "Xykon is not actually Chaotic." S/he doesn't care enough about biological sex to think about it, and has no idea that which one s/he is is ambiguous to anyone.


even though in this world it`s also not cool (remember Roy`s reaction to the famous belt?)
Lots of women I know would be freaked out by the idea of being stuck in a male body, even temporarily.

[Chad30]

I think it's more that V doesn't care about gender or the roles associated with them, so V doesn't refer to herself with a pronoun, doesn't correct anyone that calls V a man or woman, and of course doesn't dress like either one.

I agree that V isn't very attractive, and I don't find androgynous character attractive in general. Especially ones that don't have much facial detail like stick figure people.

I think V has enough prode that even if it were proven she was a woman, she wouldn't pretend to be something she isn't to get respect. She's use arcane force, as she loves to do. Arcane power is everything to V, and in that universe her views are pretty justified.

[Sir_Leorik]

"Poor Durkon! May your corpse be interred by the tombs of your pappy, grandpappy, great-grandpappy, etc. (Preferably with a wooden stake driven through your heart, your mouth filled with holy wafers and your lips sewn shut with silver thread. ) "

Can you make silver thread?


Yeah, and gold thread as well. They are both very soft metals (especially gold).

Traditional vampire lore often calls for the disposal of a vampire's body in some sort of way that the vampire can't easily come back. Turning the vampire's body face down, driving a wooden stake through its heart (long enough to impale it in the ground), then decapitating the head, stuffing the mouth with garlic, holy wafers or poppy seeds, and sewing the mouth shut. Silver thread is suggested in many legends, since silver was anathema to werewolves, and vampires were supposed to be werewolves that rose from the grave.

[Sir_Leorik]

Most of what you're describing has nothing to do with V's soul. You're talking about them possessing his/her body. If anything, getting access to V's soul would allow them to transfer V's consciousness to another body, or use V to boost some other character's abilities via soul-splice. There was no mention of control of V, however, only of POSSESSION of his/her soul. The fiends controlling the decisions made by said soul is technically not part of the deal.


Emphasis mine. You just brought up the word that outlines how slippery with language the IFCC can be. Imply possession of V's soul and mean possession of V via the soul. Never doubt the possibilities of possession in the hands of a fiend.

Of course, any time they call in their debt they are able to be on the Prime Material. So call in the debt, show up. If controlling V's soul does not confer control of V's body (I'm doubtful of that point, but let's go with it), simply take V's soul out. Put in any soul you have actual control of, then splice V back onto that. Or splice V to yourself (I imagine the IFCC directors will be calling in their time individually in order to maximize the possibility of their plans working) and get to work while possessing V's body..

The IFCC didn't actually use the word "possess". They used the word "get" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0633.html); each of the trio will "get" V's soul for a length of time equal to the duration that V maintained the splice with the soul that member provided. On the other hand they did imply that they would determine who would get custody themselves, and they would do so without V present...

[Sir_Leorik]

none of which at all adresses the fact that they said they dont care about Vs soul, they did not say this where V could hear or where any of there enemies could be eavesdropping, they did not say this to trick and confuse and manipulate

they sait to Quar to get him up to speed on what "it" is so he could work with them

The never said they didn't want V's soul. They said that V's soul was a means to an end: getting the Snarl to chow down on the Upper Planes.

[Syncro]

I know, I wish there were more truly intelligent heroes in the media, like Artemis Fowl or Foaly or Mr. Fantastic. It would also be nice if they didn't have to make them all so arrogant.

Same although I wish they would do stupid things from time to time, that's why I like V in some aspects, unlike Dr.Brenan form Bones I mean both can be horribly arrogant and condescending but V's pride actually bites him/her in the butt while I feel too many other smart characters get away with it cuz' they're smart. Also if smart characters did smart things all the time there would be no conflict and they would be flat out boring
although I do think arrogance is a flaw used too often for smart fictional characters. That's another thing I like about Oots, it highlight different kinds of intelligence, while V may be crazy analytical(which helped him/her in his/her battle with Z'dditri) V tends to be too presumtous and niave with other people while even though Haley knows people really well she can know people too well in the sense that it frequently hinders her relationships like her father. Hell, even Elan has some kind of intelligence, often recognizing the many patterns in stories and can often be able to tip toe around it while people like V tend to fall in the pit trap more often(even though v is also fairly genre savvy ex. killing Kobuta)

[t209]

I kinda hate V and yet I pity him.

[Sir_Leorik]

That's another thing I like about Oots, it highlight different kinds of intelligence, while V may be crazy analytical(which helped him/her in his/her battle with Z'dditri) V tends to be too presumtous and niave with other people while even though Haley knows people really well she can know people too well in the sense that it frequently hinders her relationships like her father. Hell, even Elan has some kind of intelligence, often recognizing the many patterns in stories and can often be able to tip toe around it while people like V tend to fall in the pit trap more often(even though v is also fairly genre savvy ex. killing Kobuta)

V has a low Charisma score (probably an 8 or 9), and has no ranks in Diplomacy (though it would not surprise me to learn V has five or more ranks in Knowledge (Nobility & Royalty), which gives knowledge of etiquette and protocol). So V has difficulty relating to people on anything but an abstract level. I think V's WIS score is decent, somewhere between a 12 and a 15. V's arrogance is his/her major stumbling block; when V allows his/her intellect and common sense to prevail, V can come up with excellent plans, such as dismissing the Elementals or buffing the Azurite troops during the battle for Azure City. V's low Charisma not only means that V speaks down to people, it means that V has a poor sense of self. So long as V views him/herself as achieving something, then V is full of self-confidence to the point of arrogance. The second there's a setback, V is struck with self doubt. (Remember, Charisma in D&D isn't just about physical attractiveness. Perhaps the reason Elan never second guesses himself is due to his astronomical Charisma score.)

[Kish]

V has a low Charisma score (probably an 8 or 9), and has no ranks in Diplomacy (though it would not surprise me to learn V has five or more ranks in Knowledge (Nobility & Royalty), which gives knowledge of etiquette and protocol). So V has difficulty relating to people on anything but an abstract level. I think V's WIS score is decent, somewhere between a 12 and a 15.
Agh.

"Low" is not "barely below average." "Decent" is not "distinctly above average." *muttergrumblestatinflation*

I would say Vaarsuvius has an actually low Charisma--no higher than 7--and a low Wisdom as well, but if you want to argue that s/he has an almost-average Charisma and a high Wisdom, knock yourself out. Just, please, don't act like 9 is "low" and 15 is merely "decent."

[Adeptus]

I agree that V isn't very attractive, and I don't find androgynous character attractive in general. Especially ones that don't have much facial detail like stick figure people.

Androgynous characters can be plenty attractive, both to straight males, straight females or any variant.

As it happens there was a recent study. Guys who are attracted to overly feminine women (huge breasts etc) seem to be the ones most likely to be very misogynistic and believe in stereotypical gender roles.

Don't assume androgynous people can't be attractive, even if it doesn't work for you. V is also an elf, so exotic and androgynous probably comes with the territory to some extent.

[Adeptus]

I would say Vaarsuvius has an actually low Charisma--no higher than 7--and a low Wisdom as well, but if you want to argue that s/he has an almost-average Charisma and a high Wisdom, knock yourself out. Just, please, don't act like 9 is "low" and 15 is merely "decent."

For classic 3d6 stat roleplaying this is indeed the case. For 3.0 and later D&D, not so much.... and I hate it. The stat inflation has been terrible.

[Chad30]

I was only talking about my personal opinion. That's why I said I don't find them attractive, instead of saying they aren't attractive. I won't say I've never been misogynistic. Maybe I am. Maybe I'm not. I won't fault people for what they like, but I do have preferences when it comes to men and women. That's just me, though.

As far as stats go, I would like the default stat to have no bonus or penalty. I'm not sure why they would start you off at -1. Is it supposed to represent someone who is untrained or something? Is that why 8 would be -1 instead of 0?

[Aquatosic]

Same although I wish they would do stupid things from time to time, that's why I like V in some aspects, unlike Dr.Brenan form Bones I mean both can be horribly arrogant and condescending but V's pride actually bites him/her in the butt while I feel too many other smart characters get away with it cuz' they're smart. Also if smart characters did smart things all the time there would be no conflict and they would be flat out boring
although I do think arrogance is a flaw used too often for smart fictional characters. That's another thing I like about Oots, it highlight different kinds of intelligence, while V may be crazy analytical(which helped him/her in his/her battle with Z'dditri) V tends to be too presumtous and niave with other people while even though Haley knows people really well she can know people too well in the sense that it frequently hinders her relationships like her father. Hell, even Elan has some kind of intelligence, often recognizing the many patterns in stories and can often be able to tip toe around it while people like V tend to fall in the pit trap more often(even though v is also fairly genre savvy ex. killing Kobuta)

That is so true! Ever heard Eistein's saying: "Everyone is intelligent in their own way, but if you judge a fish on his/her ability to climb trees, he/she will spend its life believing himself/herself to be dumb.".

[factotum]

As far as stats go, I would like the default stat to have no bonus or penalty. I'm not sure why they would start you off at -1. Is it supposed to represent someone who is untrained or something? Is that why 8 would be -1 instead of 0?

Er, what? The old D&D system took account of the fact that the most likely numbers to roll on 3d6 are 10 and 11 and put the "no bonus" level there--so, if you rolled strictly average, you'd have no bonuses overall.

[Chad30]

I guess I shouldn't use DDO as a standard, but they have all your stats start out at 8. Unless you get a racial bonus to something.

[JackRackham]

The IFCC didn't actually use the word "possess". They used the word "get" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0633.html); each of the trio will "get" V's soul for a length of time equal to the duration that V maintained the splice with the soul that member provided. On the other hand they did imply that they would determine who would get custody themselves, and they would do so without V present...

And they're 'getting' V's soul, not his body. Nor was there any mention of their being able to do anything with V's body. Nor is there anything saying they can put V's soul in someone else's body without their permission.

SO, the fiends MAY take V's soul before he dies (presumably leaving his body a shell for the duration). BUT, all they can really do with it is splice it to a WILLING host. Ya know, unless I'm reading too much into this and possession of his/her soul allows the fiends to control his/her body as well.

[Holy_Knight]

More than that, I think "Vaarsuvius deliberately dresses to appear artificially androgynous" is a huge assumption, only just short of "Xykon is not actually Chaotic." S/he doesn't care enough about biological sex to think about it, and has no idea that which one s/he is is ambiguous to anyone.
Actually, I think the the evidence runs in the other direction--on the latter point for sure, and possibly on the former. Characters have specifically called V androgynous (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0781.html) to his face, as well as expressed confusion about his gender when speaking to him, like (minor OtOotPCs spoiler) when he filled out his application with Roy. Additionally, it would be somewhat odd if V never noticed that people use both pronouns to refer to him, especially while he also has no trouble in using the correct pronouns to refer to other people. So, I think it's extremely likely that V knows other people find him ambiguous.

As for the other point (not exactly, but a related one) this is more speculative, but it would make a lot of sense if V deliberately struck an air of downplaying gender/feigning ignorance in some ways out of annoyance over having been perceived as ambiguous in the past. For instance, it would help explain implausible reactions like "It sure is weird that you have a mop (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0237.html) on your head, but I totally fail to notice that your entire body shape is different". It's hard to buy that someone wouldn't notice something like that--but purposely "not noticing" because of a general commitment to downplay gender differences is another story.



Lots of women I know would be freaked out by the idea of being stuck in a male body, even temporarily.
Agreed--simply not wanting to be physically transformed doesn't imply a negative value judgment about anyone else or their demographic.


Androgynous characters can be plenty attractive, both to straight males, straight females or any variant.

As it happens there was a recent study. Guys who are attracted to overly feminine women (huge breasts etc) seem to be the ones most likely to be very misogynistic and believe in stereotypical gender roles.

Don't assume androgynous people can't be attractive, even if it doesn't work for you. V is also an elf, so exotic and androgynous probably comes with the territory to some extent.
He never made a claim about androgynous people in general, only about what he does or does not find attractive. You seem to be chastising him for an offense he hasn't committed.

On another note, the study you're referring to sounds fairly dubious. Not only for the tacit assumption that "huge breasts" is the main identifier of feminine physicality (and men's attraction thereto) but also because it's probable that most straight men in general are attracted to women perceived as more feminine. If that is the case, then the fact that most misogynistic men are as well wouldn't actually be an indicator of anything.

[Adeptus]

I was only talking about my personal opinion. That's why I said I don't find them attractive, instead of saying they aren't attractive.
I misread you then.

Anyway, the sciency bit wasn't aimed at anybody, I just find it an interesting finding.

I was mostly trying to point out that personal preference is not a good way to gauge how attractive somebody is overall. V was happily married and everything.

Wasn't the claim basically that because V isn't drawn all curvy, if V is female then she would be an unattractive female. If male, he could still be a cool androgynous dude? I just find this a somewhat odd perspective. (I don't remember who posted this exactly, somewhere earlier in this thread).

[Chad30]

I find it's generally not a good idea to generalize. :) It tends to step on toes.

[Adeptus]

Quite true. It's all just friendly banter though, or at least intended as such :elan:

[SaintRidley]

The IFCC didn't actually use the word "possess". They used the word "get" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0633.html); each of the trio will "get" V's soul for a length of time equal to the duration that V maintained the splice with the soul that member provided. On the other hand they did imply that they would determine who would get custody themselves, and they would do so without V present...

I'm aware. Just pointing out that the moment you bring up possession, the same kind of game begins.

[JustWantedToSay]

Agh.

"Low" is not "barely below average." "Decent" is not "distinctly above average." *muttergrumblestatinflation*

I would say Vaarsuvius has an actually low Charisma--no higher than 7--and a low Wisdom as well, but if you want to argue that s/he has an almost-average Charisma and a high Wisdom, knock yourself out. Just, please, don't act like 9 is "low" and 15 is merely "decent."

highest 3 of 4d6:

Mode=13
mean=12.24
Sigma 1 deviation includes 9-15. But due to the lopsided nature of it, 9 is outside the deviation value (12.24-2.85)

Seems in line with Sir_Leorik's claims.

[half-drow63]

I love how V. Finally stops blaming herself for the deaths of all those people:smallsmile:

[Amphiox]

I love how V. Finally stops blaming herself for the deaths of all those people:smallsmile:

He's still blaming himself.

He's just not letting the guilt cripple him anymore.