SciChronic
2013-04-16, 11:57 PM
Hi, first post, though I've been reading the forums here for ideas for a while.
My group is going to be starting a campaign in the not to far future (Shadowdale from forgotten realms for anyone interested) and we will be beginning at level 9 as per the campaign's recommendations.
This time I have settled on creating a Dervish. So after spending the majority of my free time over the last 2 days researching and hypothesizing what base classes and feats to take, I have come down to 2 different builds. My big concern for choosing either build was damage, efficient feat coverage, and movement/tumbling.
The first is a standard Swashbuckler3/Fighter2/Dervish4 set-up following the Dervish Handbook (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870778/The_Dervish_Handbook?pg=1).
Crit Master Dervish
Pros:
-Full Base attack all the way
-good HP pool.
Cons:
-Movement speed issues when tumbling
-smaller skill point allotment
The big issue here is movement speed and tumbling. My DM is letting me take the movement speed bonus that dervishes and scouts acquire as an unnamed bonus, and let me create magic boots that give a +2 competence to tumble and +10 base movement speed as enhancement bonus, something of a mix between acrobat boots(MIC) and boots of striding and springing(DMG) for the price of the latter. Tumbling at full speed is DC15 +2/extra person with a -10 penalty. i should be able to take a 10 through movement mastery and pass as long as i am not tumbling around more than 3 enemies at a time (10+ 4 dex + 12 ranks + 2 synergy + 2 boots - 10 circumstance = 20). otherwise i can only move 25 feet, 4 of which are tumbles and would likely end up in a dangerous spot likely to get creamed when i am in the middle of the combat zone. only being able to move 25 feet means i can't make use of the AC bonus from expeditious dodge.
I am also unsure if the power attack will be reliable
feat progression is looking something like:
{table]1 | swashbuckler1| epeditious dodge [human], mobility [CL1], weapon finnese [swashbuckler 1]
2 | swashbuckler2|-
3 | swashbuckler3| weapon focus scimitar [CL33]
4 | fighter1 | combat expertise[fighter1]
5 | fighter2 | twf[fighter2]
6 | dervish1| Improved Critical[CL 6]
7 | dervish2|-
8 | dervish3| spring attack [dervish3]
9 | dervish4| improved twf [CL9][/table]
The goal of this build is to land critical attacks and use the int bonus to deal damage and supply skill points neccesary for perform, tumble, and other skills. This has the possibility of dealing large amounts of damage while dancing, but damage potential while not dancing is somewhat lackluster (being 2 hits from spring attack). the smaller amount of movespeed also makes positioning harder. Already suffering from the -2/-2 penalties, actually landing a critical from rolling a 15 can be challenging, especially when fight involve few, but stronger enemies. that said, a 30% crit rate is nothing to laugh at.
Stat priority:
Dex>Int>Con>Str>Wis>Cha
The second build I am considering in a scout5/swashbuckler1/fighter1/dervish2 build.
Dash Master Dervish
Pros:
-55 movement speed with modified boots
-+4d6, +3AC with improved skirmish
Cons:
-Smaller HP Pool
-a lot of precision damage
-smaller base attack
i felt going scout 6 or scout 7 and dropping the fighter and swashbuckler levels left me starving for feats. The immediate concern is fighting without dancing as i can only use it once per day, and taking spring attack would be redundant as i would get it next level anyway, but once i do, i can become a real pain by darting in 20 feet getting an improved skirmish swing then backing up 20 feet for the +2AC. The lowered BAB also leaves something to be desired, but it is managable. and concerning magic items i am at a toss up between the modified boots mentioned earlier and the skirmisher boots which at +2 dmg when skirmishing and 1 extra attack at full BAB 2/day if it is a skirmish attack.
feat progression:
{table]1| scout1| expeditious dodge[human], mobility[level 1]
2 |scout2|-
3 |scout3| weapon focus scimitar [level 3]
4 |scout4| combat expertise [scout4]
5 |scout5|-
6 |swashbuckler1| weapon finnesse [swashbuckler1], improved skirmish[level 6]
7 |fighter1| twf[fighter1],
8 |dervish1|-
9 |dervish2| improved twf [level 9][/table]
The Skirmish and improved skirmish are the keys in this build. the boosts in AC offset the d8s for scout levels while the 2d6 or 4d6 of precision damage cover what power attack and the int bonus of swashbuckler3 did. the really high movespeed attained also makes it really easy to dart in and out of danger. That said, skirmish is precision damage, so the moment i come across anything immune to critical hits... i'm kinda boned.
Stat Priority:
Dex>Int>Con>Str>Wis>Cha
The final build is a build that deals less damage, but has a lot of fighting utility. Ranger/scout/rogue1-3/Fighter2-4/Dervish4
Trip Master Dervish
Pros:
Really trip happy
wants to get hit by AoO so little use for tumble
Trips made from elusive target can't be countered
possible full BAB
Cons:
The more you want to trip, the less damage potential you have
possible need for exotic weapon prof.
Lacking movement speed
This builds gets the average of the skill point and hp allotments, having less skill points than the Dash Master, but more health, and less Health than the Crit Master, but more Skill points. Damage potential with this build can widely vary based on weapon choice, as the name implies, you want to trip a lot of foes, so you'll need a trip weapon. Flails and chains go out the window immediately, as you can't dervish dance with them. Leaving you with 2H polearms, or exotic weapons. Use of the halberd is a risk/reward choice, as you can utilize the 3rd maneuver from Elusive Target for get extra trips on top of your successful attacks with trip weapons, and even better, you don't risk dropping your weapon when tripping through elusive target. The Guisarme has reach, and can have more of a keep-away playstyle.
possible Feat progression:
{table]1|scout1|exeditious dodge[human], mobility[CL 1]
2|fighter1|combat expertise[fighter1]
3|fighter2|weapon focus halberd[fighter2], power attack [CL3]
4|fighter3|
5|fighter4|improved trip[fighter4]
6|dervish1|elusive target[CL6]
7|dervish2|-
8|dervish3|spring attack[dervish3]
9|dervish4|combat reflexes/other feat[CL9] [/table]
Stat Priority:
Str>Dex>Con>Int>Wis>Cha
And this is my predicament, i can't decide between either build, and would like some guidance. Some info about the group i'm playing with: the DM and i are really the only ones with experience. the other 3 just started with the campaign i'm running for them.
Edit1: added some information regarding build goals, stat priority, etc.
Edit2: fixed power attack issue, and added 3rd build option
My group is going to be starting a campaign in the not to far future (Shadowdale from forgotten realms for anyone interested) and we will be beginning at level 9 as per the campaign's recommendations.
This time I have settled on creating a Dervish. So after spending the majority of my free time over the last 2 days researching and hypothesizing what base classes and feats to take, I have come down to 2 different builds. My big concern for choosing either build was damage, efficient feat coverage, and movement/tumbling.
The first is a standard Swashbuckler3/Fighter2/Dervish4 set-up following the Dervish Handbook (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870778/The_Dervish_Handbook?pg=1).
Crit Master Dervish
Pros:
-Full Base attack all the way
-good HP pool.
Cons:
-Movement speed issues when tumbling
-smaller skill point allotment
The big issue here is movement speed and tumbling. My DM is letting me take the movement speed bonus that dervishes and scouts acquire as an unnamed bonus, and let me create magic boots that give a +2 competence to tumble and +10 base movement speed as enhancement bonus, something of a mix between acrobat boots(MIC) and boots of striding and springing(DMG) for the price of the latter. Tumbling at full speed is DC15 +2/extra person with a -10 penalty. i should be able to take a 10 through movement mastery and pass as long as i am not tumbling around more than 3 enemies at a time (10+ 4 dex + 12 ranks + 2 synergy + 2 boots - 10 circumstance = 20). otherwise i can only move 25 feet, 4 of which are tumbles and would likely end up in a dangerous spot likely to get creamed when i am in the middle of the combat zone. only being able to move 25 feet means i can't make use of the AC bonus from expeditious dodge.
I am also unsure if the power attack will be reliable
feat progression is looking something like:
{table]1 | swashbuckler1| epeditious dodge [human], mobility [CL1], weapon finnese [swashbuckler 1]
2 | swashbuckler2|-
3 | swashbuckler3| weapon focus scimitar [CL33]
4 | fighter1 | combat expertise[fighter1]
5 | fighter2 | twf[fighter2]
6 | dervish1| Improved Critical[CL 6]
7 | dervish2|-
8 | dervish3| spring attack [dervish3]
9 | dervish4| improved twf [CL9][/table]
The goal of this build is to land critical attacks and use the int bonus to deal damage and supply skill points neccesary for perform, tumble, and other skills. This has the possibility of dealing large amounts of damage while dancing, but damage potential while not dancing is somewhat lackluster (being 2 hits from spring attack). the smaller amount of movespeed also makes positioning harder. Already suffering from the -2/-2 penalties, actually landing a critical from rolling a 15 can be challenging, especially when fight involve few, but stronger enemies. that said, a 30% crit rate is nothing to laugh at.
Stat priority:
Dex>Int>Con>Str>Wis>Cha
The second build I am considering in a scout5/swashbuckler1/fighter1/dervish2 build.
Dash Master Dervish
Pros:
-55 movement speed with modified boots
-+4d6, +3AC with improved skirmish
Cons:
-Smaller HP Pool
-a lot of precision damage
-smaller base attack
i felt going scout 6 or scout 7 and dropping the fighter and swashbuckler levels left me starving for feats. The immediate concern is fighting without dancing as i can only use it once per day, and taking spring attack would be redundant as i would get it next level anyway, but once i do, i can become a real pain by darting in 20 feet getting an improved skirmish swing then backing up 20 feet for the +2AC. The lowered BAB also leaves something to be desired, but it is managable. and concerning magic items i am at a toss up between the modified boots mentioned earlier and the skirmisher boots which at +2 dmg when skirmishing and 1 extra attack at full BAB 2/day if it is a skirmish attack.
feat progression:
{table]1| scout1| expeditious dodge[human], mobility[level 1]
2 |scout2|-
3 |scout3| weapon focus scimitar [level 3]
4 |scout4| combat expertise [scout4]
5 |scout5|-
6 |swashbuckler1| weapon finnesse [swashbuckler1], improved skirmish[level 6]
7 |fighter1| twf[fighter1],
8 |dervish1|-
9 |dervish2| improved twf [level 9][/table]
The Skirmish and improved skirmish are the keys in this build. the boosts in AC offset the d8s for scout levels while the 2d6 or 4d6 of precision damage cover what power attack and the int bonus of swashbuckler3 did. the really high movespeed attained also makes it really easy to dart in and out of danger. That said, skirmish is precision damage, so the moment i come across anything immune to critical hits... i'm kinda boned.
Stat Priority:
Dex>Int>Con>Str>Wis>Cha
The final build is a build that deals less damage, but has a lot of fighting utility. Ranger/scout/rogue1-3/Fighter2-4/Dervish4
Trip Master Dervish
Pros:
Really trip happy
wants to get hit by AoO so little use for tumble
Trips made from elusive target can't be countered
possible full BAB
Cons:
The more you want to trip, the less damage potential you have
possible need for exotic weapon prof.
Lacking movement speed
This builds gets the average of the skill point and hp allotments, having less skill points than the Dash Master, but more health, and less Health than the Crit Master, but more Skill points. Damage potential with this build can widely vary based on weapon choice, as the name implies, you want to trip a lot of foes, so you'll need a trip weapon. Flails and chains go out the window immediately, as you can't dervish dance with them. Leaving you with 2H polearms, or exotic weapons. Use of the halberd is a risk/reward choice, as you can utilize the 3rd maneuver from Elusive Target for get extra trips on top of your successful attacks with trip weapons, and even better, you don't risk dropping your weapon when tripping through elusive target. The Guisarme has reach, and can have more of a keep-away playstyle.
possible Feat progression:
{table]1|scout1|exeditious dodge[human], mobility[CL 1]
2|fighter1|combat expertise[fighter1]
3|fighter2|weapon focus halberd[fighter2], power attack [CL3]
4|fighter3|
5|fighter4|improved trip[fighter4]
6|dervish1|elusive target[CL6]
7|dervish2|-
8|dervish3|spring attack[dervish3]
9|dervish4|combat reflexes/other feat[CL9] [/table]
Stat Priority:
Str>Dex>Con>Int>Wis>Cha
And this is my predicament, i can't decide between either build, and would like some guidance. Some info about the group i'm playing with: the DM and i are really the only ones with experience. the other 3 just started with the campaign i'm running for them.
Edit1: added some information regarding build goals, stat priority, etc.
Edit2: fixed power attack issue, and added 3rd build option