Hyperconcious; What's new?

[Vaz]

I'm running a game with a couple of Psionics and Magic characters, using a "Psionics is different" campaign; using partial transparency; the premise being in the last campaign, new "magic" was unleashed across the spectrum; I've allowed Tome of Battle, Psionics, and Incarnum now; so there's only really the party that have access to Psionics.

While the party is breaking through the anti-magic defences and wardings quite easily, the BBEG and his coven of protectors is quickly going around rounding up those who have access to the new magic, and they are aiding in the creation of anti-psionic powers; think a sort of Chronicles of Riddick style, where the Psionic Characters are the "sniffers" of the Necromongers, used on a leash as weapons.

The enemy is consequently able to counter the anti-magic defences with their own Psionics, while ToB maneuvres, while the magic guys (Sorcerers, Wizards, Clerics etc) are all still available to

What I'm planning on doing is escalating the conflict, and allowing Hyperconcious to be run alongside it.

Is there anything within Hyperconcious that i need to look out for; major rule changes from the XPH and Complete Psi rules, or any particularly gems within the options; I know/have heard of Persistent Power that the Ardent that I use when I'm not DM'ing is going to have a bit of fun with, but what else should I look out for? Stupid rules abuses, etc?

[BWR]

There's a lot of broken stuff there. Feats, PrCs and powers. E.g. the Ghostbreaker, a 5 level PrC that gives full BAB, 2 good save, full manifesting, Psionic Turn Undead, detect undead at will, resistance to energy drain, extra damage vs undead and more.

A 6th level power that deals damage and Int drain for 1 round/level, buffs to Psionic Dominate, Psionic Animate Dead, similar stuff.

Apart from this, it's quite interesting, with a lot of neat new stuff, flavorful new powers and PrCs, cool monsters and a decent adventure. On the whole, I like it and used it when I DM'd a campaign with psionics, but a few things you have to watch out for.

Basically, it's Bruce Cordell's excuse to make psionics run rampant in a way he wasn't allowed to with the XPH. Which is fine, since it is not stuffed in under official rules in any way.

[DownwardSpiral]

There's a lot of broken stuff there. Feats, PrCs and powers. E.g. the Ghostbreaker, a 5 level PrC that gives full BAB, 2 good save, full manifesting, Psionic Turn Undead, detect undead at will, resistance to energy drain, extra damage vs undead and more.

A 6th level power that deals damage and Int drain for 1 round/level, buffs to Psionic Dominate, Psionic Animate Dead, similar stuff.
.

Yeah none of that is broken. We've had full bab full casting prcs for a while. detect undead at will isnt broken. And IMMUNITY to energy drain is required at a certain level.


Anyway, hyperconcious is pretty great.

[Tokuhara]

And let us not forget him saying, "Metamind out of XPH was utter crap. Here's the RIGHT way Metamind is tabled," effectively turning an Okay class (mostly as a Psionics dip) into "Dear God, why did everybody fall down"

[Psyren]

Yeah none of that is broken. We've had full bab full casting prcs for a while. detect undead at will isnt broken. And IMMUNITY to energy drain is required at a certain level.


Anyway, hyperconcious is pretty great.

This. If you consider Hyperconscious "broken," you've been playing in low-power campaigns for a while and consider lots of things broken.

Persistent Power + Permanent Focus is really the only thing you need to watch out for - a few applications of that and you'll have a DMM Persist Psion. Most of the powers in Hyperconscious are actually pretty weak. Be wary of allowing Erudites with Sequester Power (they can end up with massive amounts of PP easily), but Sequester Power is fine on other manifesters.


And let us not forget him saying, "Metamind out of XPH was utter crap. Here's the RIGHT way Metamind is tabled," effectively turning an Okay class (mostly as a Psionics dip) into "Dear God, why did everybody fall down"

Please tell me you're kidding. XPH Metamind isn't "okay," it's terrible. The Hyperconscious Metamind is wonderful - powerful and flavorful but you still give up a lot to gain access.

I will point out though that Ardents give up less for this PrC than other classes do.

[classy one]

I've done a comprehensive review of that book. Just click on the link located in my sig. Hope it helps.

Permenant focus and persistent power get all the attention but the real winner IMO is psychic bastion which reduces ability damage by three. IMO it is a must for everyone.

[classy one]

Honestly, I always felt the metamind was an okay class to dip into since it's free manifesting allowed you to pump more PP into a power, effectively doubling its ML. I would not recommend goin past level 3 unless you were an ardent. If you're using an ardent then go and take all 10 levels.

[Psyren]

Honestly, I always felt the metamind was an okay class to dip into since it's free manifesting allowed you to pump more PP into a power, effectively doubling its ML. I would not recommend goin past level 3 unless you were an ardent. If you're using an ardent then go and take all 10 levels.

"Free manifesting?" You mean Font of Power?

That doesn't change any of the rules around manifesting, you're still limited by your ML. The only difference is that the PP you put into the power don't deplete your reserve.

[Rubik]

Up until metamind 10, full psions get more power points than metaminds, even including all the metamind freebies. And even with font of power, it's still rather close. And with all the powers known and manifester levels that you lose, XPH metaminds are AWFUL at doing what they're purported to do. You're better off taking three levels of illithid savant and grabbing font of power by eating a metamind's brain.

So, yes. Metamind isn't a good PrC. It's a brunch waiting to happen.

[classy one]

"Free manifesting?" You mean Font of Power?

That doesn't change any of the rules around manifesting, you're still limited by your ML. The only difference is that the PP you put into the power don't deplete your reserve.

No I didn't mean font of power, I meant free manifesting. As in the class feature that lets you manifest a power for free. You get it at level one, you can use it 3/day on any level one power. At every odd numbered level the power you can manifest for free increases.
The frees up the initial cost of the power and allows for all PP to be poured into augmentations.

It's strange that all people remember of metamind is font of power rather than its other features like Cognicent psicrystal. Don't get me wrong I still think its a ****ty PrC but it still does have its upside as a dip.

[Gotterdammerung]

I wouldn't consider anything in Hyperconscious to be "broken". Bruce Cordell is a really good designer IMO. Some things are on the strong side, but its all comparable to pre-existing material for other class systems.

[otakumick]

The XPH Metamind is best for epic level psion, then you aren't progressing your powers known or pp any more anyway.

[rot42]

The book allows for mindscape psionic combat but does not require it. You are probably already familiar with what that entails, but if not just ignore that chapter and any references and you will be fine.

Dreamstained items will likely be treated by your players as not worth the risk - either they do not have a way around the downsides and the items are basically ignored or they do and the PCs get a bunch of cheap and effective loot. Synaptic Masks also wind up pretty cheap.

The Idbeast template can be deceptively dangerous on a bunch of low level ambushers, but similar caveats apply to any template.

The power Detect Compulsion does what it says on the tin. This can short circuit certain types of mystery adventures. I would not call this power bad or abusable, but you as the DM should be aware that it exists.

I remember enjoying classy one's guide linked above.

[Tokuhara]

Right. However, there are strong 2-piece combinations, my favorite being StP Erudite/Colorless Adept/Arch Psion, or as it's commonly known, "I know everything ever"

[classy one]

Surprised no one mentioned chronorebel? This class can travel back in time and ruin your campaign very easily. I would vote for this to be banned if you planned on using this book.

[JoshuaZ]

Up until metamind 10, full psions get more power points than metaminds, even including all the metamind freebies. And even with font of power, it's still rather close. And with all the powers known and manifester levels that you lose, XPH metaminds are AWFUL at doing what they're purported to do. You're better off taking three levels of illithid savant and grabbing font of power by eating a metamind's brain.

So, yes. Metamind isn't a good PrC. It's a brunch waiting to happen.

Arguing that something isn't good because Illithid Savant is better is about 2.5 steps below arguing that it isn't good because Pun-Pun is better. That said, your other points about the specifics of psions v. metamind seems accurate, and I agree with your general assessment that the XPH metamind is not great and that the hyperconscious metamind is not that OP either.

[Gotterdammerung]

Arguing that something isn't good because Illithid Savant is better is about 2.5 steps below arguing that it isn't good because Pun-Pun is better. That said, your other points about the specifics of psions v. metamind seems accurate, and I agree with your general assessment that the XPH metamind is not great and that the hyperconscious metamind is not that OP either.


No it isn't. Illithid Savant can reach the same power level as pun-pun but only through eating other Illithid Savant's thus gaining infinite ability copies. An illithid savant copying 1 single ability is not broke, it is using the Prestige as intended.

[classy one]

No it isn't. Illithid Savant can reach the same power level as pun-pun but only through eating other Illithid Savant's thus gaining infinite ability copies. An illithid savant copying 1 single ability is not broke, it is using the Prestige as intended.

I think what josh was trying to say is that metamind sucks and there is no need to compare it to the illithid savant to prove it. No one is debating that, you are preaching to the choir.

[Jeff the Green]

Arguing that something isn't good because Illithid Savant is better is about 2.5 steps below arguing that it isn't good because Pun-Pun is better. That said, your other points about the specifics of psions v. metamind seems accurate, and I agree with your general assessment that the XPH metamind is not great and that the hyperconscious metamind is not that OP either.

I think the point is that font of power really only brings you back to straight psion levels, but an Illithid Savant is going to want it, so any 10th-level XPH Metamind is no better off for taking the class and mind flayer bait.

[Just to Browse]

How much would you be willing to pay for a copy of Hyperconscious? Just so I can get a feel for how much I should shell out for one. There's a copy at my local game store for 15 bucks. Is that too much?

EDIT: Englsih

[Waspinator]

Looks like you could get a used copy of Hyperconcious for about $9 on Amazon.

[Psyren]

No I didn't mean font of power, I meant free manifesting. As in the class feature that lets you manifest a power for free. You get it at level one, you can use it 3/day on any level one power.

Oh, see, I thought you were still talking about the Hyperconscious Metamind, not the XPH one there.

And no, it's still not worth it - free manifesting only covers the base cost of the power, you still have to pay the cost to augment it. So using it on say, Astral Construct will only save you 1 PP - and you lose 1 ML for the privilege, so you break even 3/day and are behind for the rest of it.

[JoshuaZ]

Oh, see, I thought you were still talking about the Hyperconscious Metamind, not the XPH one there.

And no, it's still not worth it - free manifesting only covers the base cost of the power, you still have to pay the cost to augment it. So using it on say, Astral Construct will only save you 1 PP - and you lose 1 ML for the privilege, so you break even 3/day and are behind for the rest of it.

This isn't so bad if you take Practiced Manifester.

[Rubik]

This isn't so bad if you take Practiced Manifester.Except you don't gain the additional base power points OR powers known, and you waste a feat slot for it, too.

So yes. Yes it is.

[classy one]

Oh, see, I thought you were still talking about the Hyperconscious Metamind, not the XPH one there.

And no, it's still not worth it - free manifesting only covers the base cost of the power, you still have to pay the cost to augment it. So using it on say, Astral Construct will only save you 1 PP - and you lose 1 ML for the privilege, so you break even 3/day and are behind for the rest of it.

There is still practised manifester which can pad the lose in ML.

Make no mistake, I don't think either version of metamind is good, just saying it might have some uses for non min/maxers. The only exception is an ardent who will still get 9th level powers even after taking all 10 levels of metamind.

[Nettlekid]

While we're talking about Hyperconcious, what do you guys think about the Mindscape battles and the Avatars and things? Barely any mechanical advantage (+a couple to a save or something) but it's overflowing with cool. Two Psions lock eyes. Perceivable only to them, enormous entities clash on a shifting landscape in the blink of an eye. One titan falls.

One Psion gets +1 on ranged damage rolls.

[JoshuaZ]

While we're talking about Hyperconcious, what do you guys think about the Mindscape battles and the Avatars and things? Barely any mechanical advantage (+a couple to a save or something) but it's overflowing with cool. Two Psions lock eyes. Perceivable only to them, enormous entities clash on a shifting landscape in the blink of an eye. One titan falls.

One Psion gets +1 on ranged damage rolls.

Well, it did have the definite advantage of actually making a sane, useable, balanced version of the whole 3.0 psionic combat stuff, which was such nice fluff and so badly implemented. The only serious downside from a gameplay perspective, is that with a fair number of psionic creatures in play, it slows down combat a fair bit. It probably is less of an issue for PbP but I don't have any experience with using the system in PbP.

[Psyren]

Except you don't gain the additional base power points OR powers known, and you waste a feat slot for it, too.

So yes. Yes it is.

Precisely. All of that might be worthwhile if you're going for FoP, but if you're not, there's no reason for it.

As for the dip, Practiced Manifester is itself a bit of a waste if you're only losing 1 ML.


While we're talking about Hyperconcious, what do you guys think about the Mindscape battles and the Avatars and things? Barely any mechanical advantage (+a couple to a save or something) but it's overflowing with cool. Two Psions lock eyes. Perceivable only to them, enormous entities clash on a shifting landscape in the blink of an eye. One titan falls.

One Psion gets +1 on ranged damage rolls.

I like it conceptually, it's very flavorful and fun. It is tough to get your head around at first but once you get the hang of it, it's a great way to differentiate psionics from other systems. If you could automate it somehow, like an NWN-style CRPG it would be fantastic.

It can slow things down as JoshuaZ said, particularly if people keep switching their modes, but with practice this does get faster. All the psionic creatures roll simultaneously once per round, so that one time is when things get their slowest, then combat proceeds as normal.

As for the size of the buffs, it's actually modal; a risk-reward type of deal. If you want a larger buff you increase your chances of losing the mental skirmish that round. But +5 untyped to an attack roll can help you land that 3rd (or 4th) iterative.

[classy one]

The problem I have with the mindscape combat is that it acts like a free detect psionics. A mindscape forms if you are in range with any psionic creature. It isn't like test of wills in ToB where you have the choice to initiate it.

That being said I think the bonuses you gain from it are much better than test of wills. If you take the feat chain listed in the book if you want to optimize it.
Again refer to the link in my sig for full evaluation of the book.

[WhatBigTeeth]

Surprised no one mentioned chronorebel? This class can travel back in time and ruin your campaign very easily. I would vote for this to be banned if you planned on using this book.I don't think the time travel ability is any more disruptive than teleport. Granted, that's not saying a whole lot in its favor, but it's an effect that comes to the table 6 levels later, and the issues it raises of circumvented obstacles, and new characters/settings are essentially the same.

The class does have some issues in its 1-round-rewind ability, but the problem there is more that the paperwork's a pain than it is that the ability breaks the game.

[classy one]

The capstone for chronorebel is disruptive because the player has control of when to use it. His backslip ability is crazy good and I agree that is makes more work for the DM. My advice is to ban it or water down the capstone.

[Psyren]

No player in their right mind would ever use the capstone without DM sanction. The Edict of Time has "DM screw" written all over it.

[classy one]

Hey psyren, I noticed you made a handbook on psyrogues. How would you rank innate pretender for the Psyrogue? Is it worth it? I'd really like to hear your opinion.

Oh and that was a great manual. Psyrogue has always been one of my favorites.

[Psyren]

Hey psyren, I noticed you made a handbook on psyrogues. How would you rank innate pretender for the Psyrogue? Is it worth it? I'd really like to hear your opinion.

Good question, I actually didn't consult Hyperconscious when I was making that. I may have to add a section on it. Qualifying is a breeze at Psyrogue 5 (the earliest you can learn Body Equilibrium and Far Hand, both of which are on the Psyrogue list.)

As a dip it isn't bad; the first three levels lose you 1 ML, but you gain the Far Hand ability 3/day (more on that below), 3/day Chameleon, and Psicraft/Speak Language/all Knowledges as class skills, all without losing any sneak attack.

For a full progression unfortunately, the PrC isn't too impressive. Its one noteworthy ability is the ability to make Open Lock, Disable Device and Sleight of Hand checks at range through Far Hand - but you're limited to 3/day, can't take 10 and suffer a +2 to the DC to do so. It's not clear if the 3/day means you can manifest a Far Hand 3/day that you can make these checks through, or if you're limited to 3 ranged skill attempts per day total; the latter makes the ability even weaker, so push for the former as hard as you can.

Even if you get the former interpretation though, you can't take 20 either; Far Hand can only be maintained up to 10 rounds, and the first two skills take longer than that if you take 20. (The third one, you can't take 20 on at all.) Since you can't take 10 OR 20, this means that you'll have to manifest Far Hand, then manually roll for the duration and hope you get through.

The other abilities are underwhelming. Innate Attack would be nice but 1/day isn't worth losing ML for. Same goes for Mind Blank (though it amusingly gives you full mind blank rather than the personal version as the fluff would suggest, so you can actually ward the party with this.) Slippery Customer is pretty good (moreso if you get to see the results of your original roll before choosing), but you have other ways of duplicating this effect at high levels.

It does accelerate your sneak attack slightly which is nice - you'll get +2d6 over staying straight Psyrogue. Of course, you set 4 ML on fire for the privilege - you could have simply dipped 3 rogue levels for the same increase and actually lost less ML. And if you only lose 3 ML to IP, you also come out only +1d6 ahead.