First lvl crusader stance choice

[Darth_Versity]

I'm about to play in a game starting at 1st lvl. I'm playing a dwarf crusader and can't pick my first lvl stance. Iron guards glare is amazing, but martial spirit provides important low level healing. It's a dungeon crawl game and I will probably be the only 'healer'

Whichever one I get, I will get the other at lvl 2

[Sir Enigma]

I'd recommend Iron Guard's Glare. At 1st level, one of the biggest dangers is getting hit by an attack that one-shots you; being able to draw attacks away from more vulnerable party members will be more helpful than those 2 hp of healing. The 1st level healing strike should be sufficient to top up from minor injuries until you reach level 2.

[navar100]

I concur with Iron Guard's Glare. At low levels, a -4 to hit is huge. You don't need to heal as much if the bad guys aren't hitting you as much. Also, healing 2 hit points a hit really isn't much. It's not totally insignificant at low level, but it's not reliable. You will miss the bad guys sometimes. Iron Guard's Glare is always on. You have your Steely Resolve to help compensate for a round. Crusader's Strike provides enough healing when you need it. Hopefully you hit. At higher levels Iron Guard's Glare is still useful. A -4 to hit is never insignificant where as healing 2 hit points a hit becomes obsolete.

[Darth_Versity]

Well that's pretty easy then. Iron guards glare it is. Thanks guys.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

I disagree, Iron Guard Glare isn't all that great at low levels. It does nothing to protect you and only protects allies from enemies you're in melee with. Assuming you march at the front of the order and attempt to use choke points this means you'll only protecting other melee who should be just as tough as you forcing yourself to be the priority target will be no net gain for the party.

Martial Spirit on the other hand, really matters at level 1. Those two hp could keep someone up, revive, stabilize or top off a any party member including yourself. At level 1 ending a fight a full or near full hp rather than at say half represent's saving a real resource in the form of a potion or memorized spell of the highest level a full caster can cast.

As opposed to high levels, level 1 "Tanking" is about being tough and filling a choke point or just charging in first and drawing "aggro". Level 5 is when Crusader Tanking really kicks in with thicket of blades.

[navar100]

That's the whole point of Iron Guard's Glare! It's supposed to protect your allies. You want the opponent to attack you as a crusader. You have Steely Resolve to delay damage for a round. Furious Counterstrike to increase to hit and damage based on the damage you took. You have healing strikes to heal yourself when necessary and still attack your opponent. The feats Stone Power and Vital Recovery can help offset the damage as well. If need be Stone Dragon can give you DR.

If an opponent attacks the crusader instead of his ally because he doesn't want a -4 to hit, the stance did its job.

[DarkEternal]

Ask your DM if Martial Spirit will work on downed characters. I know my DM didn't allow me the ability to heal(since the fluff says it's practically an inspirational-morale kind of thing) those that were unconscious/bleeding out.

If he does allow it, I would take that stance. Though to be fair, if you are the only healer, I would take it either way. It's really good on low levels and your party members will love you with that stance and Crusader strike combination.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Martial Spirit, allowed as written, never ceases to be useful because it's nearly infinite free healing on a downed foe. Otherwise, it's only good at very low levels.

My choice would be Leading the Charge, since it is good at all levels. It also means you don't have to take any of the terrible level 1 WR maneuvers in order to qualify for Battle Leader's Charge or White Raven Tactics later on (stances count as a maneuver known for qualifying).

If all you care about is the immediate term, I think the single best stance for a level 1 Crusader is Stonefoot Stance. *ducks* Everyone hates on the SD stances for the movement issue, but at level 1... you have no "full attack" and what are you using your swifts for anyway? Move to enemy, use swift to re-activate stance, and strike. Easy. +2 on str checks is great with tripping or Minotaur's Charge (re-activate just before making contact), and the +2 AC vs. bigger foes makes a real difference early on.

[Gwendol]

Leading the charge is amazingly good, and as is said above, you want to avoid the WR maneuvers in order to take Battle leaders charge ASAP (while in the stance you suddenly get another +14 damage on your charge, if you can double or triple that due to weapon, spell, feats...).

[Darth_Versity]

Leading the charge is amazingly good, and as is said above, you want to avoid the WR maneuvers in order to take Battle leaders charge ASAP

Erm... why do you need leading the charge for that. A first level crusader gets 5 maneuvers. They only have 6 to pick from and Vanguard strike and Leading the Attack are practically identical. So just take leading the attack and you have your prerequisite for Battle leaders charge.

Also, I'm looking at level 1 atm, Leading the Charge is pretty useless at lvl 1.

Also, I only get 2 second level maneuvers and Shield Block and Foehammer/Mountain Hammer are to good to ignore.

[Gwendol]

Ah, right. It gets increasingly better though, so don't forget it as you increase initiator level.
Mountain hammer is arguably better than Foehammer (but take both when you can), and I'd pick Battle leader's charge anyday.

[Rijan_Sai]

Also, I only g:,econd level maneuvers and Shield Block and Foehammer/Mountain Hammer are to good to ignore.

Two suggestions:
1) Take Mountain Hammer. It is literally everything Foehammer is, and more!
2) See if your DM will allow the Unofficial Eratta (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=13292.0). It may not be perfect, but it's probably the best we're ever going to get...

[StreamOfTheSky]

You can't use Mountain Hammer when mounted, flying, climbing, or swimming. So there is that. But yeah, in the long run you won't be using either for actual combat much anyway; you want MH for the "interior decorating" capabilities which FH doesn't offer.

I loved that one time a DM tried to use a thick adamantine door to keep our 5th level party from exploring an area, and my immediate response was, "ooh, free cache of adamantine!" :smallbiggrin:
Selling off the ingots I broke it into more than doubled our wealth and meant later on there'd be plenty of adamantine gear to buy.

[MukkTB]

I'd go for martial spirit. 2 HP at level 1 is significant. It can be used when you are being attacked and it can be used to heal allies. In a dungeon its not hard to force things to attack you anyway.

[Rijan_Sai]

You can't use Mountain Hammer when mounted, flying, climbing, or swimming. So there is that. But yeah, in the long run you won't be using either for actual combat much anyway; you want MH for the "interior decorating" capabilities which FH doesn't offer.

True, I often forget that part. Though that is part of why I ssuggested the UE: it eliminates that particular clause!