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View Full Version : Do your NPCs start the encounter down resources?



Talakeal
2013-04-17, 02:46 PM
My players constantly complain that while they start most encounters wounded and down on spell slots the enemies are always at full strength, and to be fair I should really have adversaries appear without their full compliment of spells, hit points, and other resources.

In my mind this is acceptable because this is already factored into the CR system and serves an important narrative purpose of allowing NPC spell casters to be a scary challenge without allowing pc casters too much power, but my players disagree.

What is your oppinion? How is this handled in your game?

Seerow
2013-04-17, 02:54 PM
I would generally limit casters to a fraction of their slots, but honestly how often does a fight in 3.X go on long enough for a mid level caster to blow through all of his slots? As long as you're not building the caster specifically to nova through 10 spell slots a round or anything crazy like that, it shouldn't make a difference.

(I see no reason to have reduced hp, and magic items/consumable resources are already lower for NPCs in the form of reduced NPC wbl)

Kornaki
2013-04-17, 03:05 PM
It depends on the context of the encounter. If you're trawling through the BBEG's dungeon and come upon his lieutenant, why would that NPC have been in combat earlier today? Similarly if you're in a town market and fight an NPC, it's unlikely that NPC was in combat earlier, since he's in a town. An argument could be made if you come upon someone in a forest where random encounters exist, or similar locations, but I think most NPC encounters make more sense if the NPC is fully loaded and ready to go

Joe the Rat
2013-04-17, 03:11 PM
It would only make sense if the NPCs would have reasonably been using their resources - i.e. adventuring. Rival parties probably ought to have a little wear, and maybe the occasional monster has taken a decent hit or had to use abilities in its hunt, but these seem more like exceptions.

valadil
2013-04-17, 03:28 PM
Absolutely. It opens up a lot more options for me when designing encoutners. I don't usually use enemies more than 4 levels higher than the PCs. But if I really want to use a spell or feat that goes above that limit, giving the enemy some battle fatigue is how I do it.

The only problem with this is player expectations. When they realize an enemy caster is 7 levels higher than them, they expect a tougher fight than they get. When the fight suddnely ends, the reaction is "that was it?"

I haven't totally solved this problem, but I try to manage it by only using wounded NPCs when they make sense. A bear that's half dead isn't going to jump the PCs in the woods. It's going to sit in its den and lick its wounds. An enemy general who slipped away before his armies crushing defeat? That guy's running on empty.

Trinoya
2013-04-17, 03:59 PM
If any event has occured to impact their capability to be prepared for the encounter then they are not ready, and often not at full capacity.

My players tend to waltz into ambushes though so this almost never occurs. I'm not saying I put them into ambushes, I'm saying they litterally walk into them.

NPC: Guys, I think we should rest before we go to the place that is likely a horrible terrible trap. :smallsmile:

Party: BOO we should totally advance before the DM tries to lead us astray! :smallmad:

NPC: Okay, well I'm not gonna go with you guys to your death. :smallsigh:

Party: WERE ON TO YOU GRR :smallyuk:

NPC: ... have fun storming the castle... :smallfrown:

*one inevitable ambush later*

Party: Gah! Why do we always get ambushed! KILLER DM! :smallfurious:


*story simplified to protect the innocent.*


Anyway, yeah, just always play it by ear a bit. Roll for number of spells they don't have etc if they are in any situation that would deplete their spells (low on food, being chased, in a survival situation, bad weather, other enemies who have attacked them, and so fourth).

JoshuaZ
2013-04-17, 04:03 PM
Depends on the context. Generally not unless there's some plot reason for them to be down resources. Players did have a recent encounter where the NPCs were down resources because they caught up with them in a ruined temple that they were both exploring and the NPCs were a bit ahead of them and so had triggered traps and a few enemies.

Kane0
2013-04-17, 08:02 PM
Well, for the most part an opponent that is prepared for you should have the majority of their resources available and ready for you.

That said, they live in the world too and have things to do, so if they are busy, are note preparing specifically for something or must expend some of those resources during the day for other things then that is the way it is.

I'd say have a few here and there that are not at full strength, but they should not be the ones that are prepared for the circumstances at the beginning of the day. It should be more along the lines of a random encounter sometime later on in the day or through a protracted event.

hymer
2013-04-18, 04:26 AM
If the players want it easier they can have it. But then you have to lower their XP prize along with the difficulty.
NPCs and PCs aren't actually supposed to be the on the same starting ground, since PCs are generally expected to win - which I assume they do.

DigoDragon
2013-04-18, 07:04 AM
but honestly how often does a fight in 3.X go on long enough for a mid level caster to blow through all of his slots?

It can happen pretty often in my games. Not including trigger happy mages, I've gotten good at designing encounters so that the spellcasters have to ration their slots to make it to the end of the dungeon/quest.

The way I run games, if the players are at full strength for more than their first encounter of the day, then I feel like I'm just being lazy. :smallbiggrin:

Seerow
2013-04-18, 09:01 AM
It can happen pretty often in my games. Not including trigger happy mages, I've gotten good at designing encounters so that the spellcasters have to ration their slots to make it to the end of the dungeon/quest.

The way I run games, if the players are at full strength for more than their first encounter of the day, then I feel like I'm just being lazy. :smallbiggrin:

I was more referring to NPC casters, who aren't worried about surviving the end of the adventure, they're worried about surviving to the end of the encounter.

Using several spells in a single encounter isn't uncommon. For a really long encounter even 8-10 spells isn't unreasonable.

But a mid level caster has 20 spell slots, easily. A high level one has upwards of 40-50. If you have an encounter that lasts long enough to blow through all of those spells without building the caster specifically to use up as many spells as possible (basically breaking the action economy in half), then I'm really impressed. Even more impressed if the party somehow survives through that many spells being thrown at them. The only real way I could see it happening is a very defensively focused caster, wasting a lot of spell slots on counterspelling, abjurations, and generally just being the most annoying thing the characters have ever seen.

UndertakerSheep
2013-04-18, 09:09 AM
At the start of my current 4e campaign, the party decided to fight a dragonborn who was above their level. He knocked them unconscious without too much effort, but decided to spare them. They encountered him a few more times after that, and they kept their distance as he shifted things in his favor.

When the dragonborn decided to crash a flying fortress on the party's hometown, the time had come (story-wise) to kill him. The only problem; he was still too high level for the party to make a fair fight, so I had him enter the encounter weakened. He was tired after fighting of a powerful dragon, which attacked him because the party's Invoker prayed to Bahamut for help earlier. But instead of reducing his hit points or resources, I simply made him as a new monster on the same level as the party.

He had lower hit points, lower defenses and a lower damage output. In other words, 'weakened'.

Rhynn
2013-04-18, 09:43 AM
With a truly random encounter (bunch of NPC adventurers in a dungeon or wilderness), I roll d% for the number of spells they've got left. Otherwise, it depends. A bunch of evil priests in an evil temple probably won't be missing many spells, unless one of them is missing an augury, maybe a light (not that I usually let evil priests prepare light). A bunch of evil priests encountered during a battle will be missing them (again, d%).

Saph
2013-04-18, 04:44 PM
Having NPCs be down hit points would require them to have survived a previous fight. Given the average life span of hostile NPCs who encounter the party (which in most dungeon crawls I've played is about fifteen seconds) this probably requires a higher level of competence than they're likely to have.

Having NPCs be down spell slots, on the other hand, makes complete sense. I find it's very rare for a fight to go on long enough for it to matter, though.

JoshuaZ
2013-04-18, 06:35 PM
(not that I usually let evil priests prepare light).

Why can't they prepare light? It is a useful spell, and isn't [good] aligned.

Geordnet
2013-04-18, 06:40 PM
Tell your players that if they want a "Fair" fight, you can throw them up against a party of NPCs the same size and level as the PCs. :smalltongue:

Rhynn
2013-04-18, 07:00 PM
Why can't they prepare light? It is a useful spell, and isn't [good] aligned.

Because in my games, they only get the reversed versions of reversible spells. So instead of light they prepare darkness, instead of cure light wounds they prepare cause light wounds, etc. Similarly, good clerics can't reverse spells, and thus can't prepare darkness, cause blindness or deafness, or slay living.

Mostly because I really like OD&D anti-clerics. :smallcool:

Barsoom
2013-04-18, 07:13 PM
The Challenge Rating of a monster or NPC (and therefore, the amount of XP gained for defeating that opponent) always assume they start the battle at full health and with access to all their abilities. If you want your PCs to fight a half-health monster, and it's thematically appropriate for the monster to be injured, there's no problem with that. Just remember to reduce the XP awards a bit.

By the way, some published adventures have something like this, eg. "The Hydra only counts as a CR 3 monster, because it's been weakened by poison".

Mr Beer
2013-04-18, 08:48 PM
Bottom Line: NPCs should not start the fight wounded and low on resources, merely to appease players' misguided sense of what's fair.

Generally NPCs aren't slogging through dungeons hacking up monsters, now if that's how they spend their time that's one thing, but if they're an evil wizard and his henchmen waiting at the top of the dark tower, why would they have sword and arrow wounds all over them?

Effectively your players are asking for parity in one tiny area without handing over any of the advantages they enjoy over the NPCs, starting with narrative priority and presumably a better than 50/50 chance of not getting a TPK every single encounter.

If they want to give up those things in exchange for seeing the bad guys being some down HP at the start of the battle then *shrug* I guess I'd let that play out for a session and then check up to see if they still like the idea.

DigoDragon
2013-04-19, 06:34 AM
The only real way I could see it happening is a very defensively focused caster, wasting a lot of spell slots on counterspelling, abjurations, and generally just being the most annoying thing the characters have ever seen.

Oh yes, those are *VERY* annoying to the players. :smallbiggrin:


So, NPCs starting at less than max resources? Hmm... I can only think of a handful of times that happened. The jist of the occurance is when the party fought something with a large load of HP (like a dragon) and it retreats, but then the PCs fight it again when not enough time in between the encounters has passed for the NPC to heal back up to full strength.

CombatOwl
2013-04-19, 07:00 AM
My players constantly complain that while they start most encounters wounded and down on spell slots the enemies are always at full strength, and to be fair I should really have adversaries appear without their full compliment of spells, hit points, and other resources.

Tell them to get stuffed; the CR system is already designed to give the PCs a massive, massive advantage. NPCs get NPC level wealth and NPC classes--that alone is enough of a penalty without needing to start them injured.

Plus, DM prep work is already hard enough without you having to spend additional time figuring out what resources a group of NPCs expended.

The only times it makes sense to start NPCs injured are;
1) Story reasons, so you can signal to the party that something dangerous is about.
2) In order to drop the effective CR of a major enemy who is well above the normal CR face by the party.

Do keep in mind that if you start the enemies with significant injuries and resource depletion, you ought to adjust the CR of the encounter down--and adjust experience rewards accordingly. If the NPCs are at half health, that's at least worthy of a -1 CR adjustment. If they have also used up all of their expendable items, that should ALSO be worth another -1 CR adjustment.


In my mind this is acceptable because this is already factored into the CR system and serves an important narrative purpose of allowing NPC spell casters to be a scary challenge without allowing pc casters too much power, but my players disagree.

Exactly right. If the players really want NPCs to start injured and with diminished resources, then the NPCs ought to get PC level wealth and PC classes.


What is your oppinion? How is this handled in your game?

Everyone in my group DMs occasionally, and understands how CR is meant to work.

killem2
2013-04-19, 09:36 AM
I let them rest. I roll for random encounters if I deem them to be in an unsafe area. I have my own little chart for severity.

Like if they rest right in the middle of the hall way where they just mudered a bunch of orcs, inside the known dungeon that is of the orcs domain, then there is a high chance usually 80%, they will be attacked.


If they leave and camp, its much lower.

Tengu_temp
2013-04-19, 01:25 PM
OP's players sound like whiners, for the reasons he described in his own post.

I don't really play games that have daily resources in the same way DND does. I play systems like M&M or Fate, where healing between fights is usually trivial and takes minutes at most, and if someone took a serious wound it takes a much longer time to heal and is handled differently than simple HP loss. These games assume that each time the party meets a new enemy, they're usually at full health, and if they don't the handicap comes from narrative reasons and not because the cleric ran out of heals.
Hell, even DND 4e follows this mindset, to a limited extent. Daily powers are still a limited resource, but the party is assumed to meet every encounter at full health and with all encounter powers recharged.

SilverLeaf167
2013-04-20, 02:38 AM
None of my caster NPCs have their full spells prepared/known, simply because I'm too lazy to think of ten spells for a character that I only expect to live for 2-5 rounds. I usually just approximate the enemies' HP, too, so it's sort of hard to say whether it's "down", unless they're in a really weak state.

Fibinachi
2013-04-20, 11:25 AM
Take a step back and ask yourself "What ressources are they really refering to"?

In a dungeon crawl like setting (storming a castle room by room), I've had some fun just varying the level of preparedness of the enemy as such:

They encountered a guard patrol that was on active duty, so full plate mail, swords, armor, anti magic rings.
It was short, brutal battle.

Then they broke into a barracks by accident, and woke up the sleeping guards. Same NPC stats, (warriors and fighters) but without their gear, as they were off duty.

The difference between a warrior with armor and shield and a warrior with a pyjamas and his fists is significant - and it also gives the PC's a good sense of reactivity (It was possible find guards that weren't prepared, so on) so the world feels more alive.

That sort of thing works well for instilling a sense of the NPCS having lives apart from the PCs. I don't think your players are necessarily upset that the people and monsters they encounter are always at full resources, I think they might be complaining that it feels like the enemy is always prepared for them.

Ie, the evil cleric *always* has his mace with him so he has a weapon handy. The Hydra has always just eaten and is completely well fed. The enemy mage has always prepared exactly appropriate spells and is at full spell slots (What are the odds of said mage maybe having prepared "feast" to cut down on dinner preparation time?). Every single enemy has had 8 hours of rest and a meal.

If you adjust the CR down a little, you can start adding a few modifiers to the enemy even if you keep the exact same stats. Then when the party wanders around the place, you can decide if its appropriate the next group they encounter is fully prepared. Example:

Storming a castle, I decide it's possible that the guards would be tired from sparring (-2 to attack from fatigue) or short a meal (-5 HP or -2 fort save). The PC's blunder around, and eventually find a group of guards. They win. They blunder around some more, taking a time to check for hidden doors and break into rooms arbitrarily while casting fireballs at the walls to see if it triggers traps.
You know, PCs.

Then they encounter another group, and I decide these guys are short a meal and apply the relevant modifier (And take time to mention in the lead up that they're complaining about being interupted on the way to the kitchens)

That works for me in giving a sense of the enemies not being completely prepared at all times.

Inkidu
2013-04-20, 11:41 AM
I haven't sat in the DM chair a long time but the first game I ran was considered wildly enjoyable by all. My advice seems really basic but it's never let me down.

Keep in mind the resources of the players. How much HP and items they have. You're not there to make it a cake walk but if your NPCs are using all of their slots maybe hold back on one or two powerful spells. That way if the PCs have great luck you can pull the spell out in a really cool desperation move by the NPC.

If players are complaining about being beat up upon it might be a good idea to have them come across some beat up NPCs while at full strength. This has some merits. It let's the PCs feel powerful and actually allows you to make up the deficit with minions. PCs love beating up on minions and it leaves a cautious NPC villain to kind of collect himself and exercise his evil talents in more subtle ways. Also if it's not an important NPC and you can lose them to the players then it plays into the power fantasy and lets you beat them up for the bigger bad. ;D

Personally, most of my villains have used some of their resources because I hate the whole bad guy waiting on his throne for the PCs to come beat. That's just me through. I like active villains. :D

Mastikator
2013-04-20, 01:30 PM
The only times I generally plan hostile encounters is when the enemy are going to ambush the players, otherwise NPCs have whatever resources make sense for them to have without consideration for how difficult it would be for the PCs to defeat.

Vaern
2013-04-20, 02:11 PM
In a lot of situations, especially when dealing with spellcasters, it makes sense for them to be down a few resources. Even a wizard who keeps to himself in his tower would regularly burn spell slots to place a few Alarms around his home, followed by Clairvoyance or Arcane Eye if the alarms are triggered to see who the intruders are.

Also, be sure to roll loot before an encounter, especially if the party is hunting down their enemy on his own turf. The wizard in my random example probably has potions, scrolls, wands, and wondrous items sitting around in his tower. This stuff is all his loot. If a random party is invading his home and trying to kill him, why should he not be using that stuff? Equipping him with his own loot is just as reasonable as having him expend spells outside of combat, even if it costs the party a few consumable items.

Toofey
2013-04-21, 01:34 AM
In my mind this is the player fault for not planning better.

yougi
2013-04-21, 09:36 PM
It depends on the context of the encounter. If you're trawling through the BBEG's dungeon and come upon his lieutenant, why would that NPC have been in combat earlier today? Similarly if you're in a town market and fight an NPC, it's unlikely that NPC was in combat earlier, since he's in a town. An argument could be made if you come upon someone in a forest where random encounters exist, or similar locations, but I think most NPC encounters make more sense if the NPC is fully loaded and ready to go

Exactly. The reason why PCs are not at full health/resources is that their "job" is to run through an enemy complex and all of its inhabitants, and therefore face multiple encounters back to back. The complex's guardians don't get multiple invaders a day. On the other hand, if the enemies are the ones going around attacking random people, no, they should be the ones not at full strength.

Then again, next time they're ambushed by a group of ogres:


PC: Once again, while we're all out of spells, we're attacked by a fresh, rested group of 8 ogres. This is getting old.

DM: Actually, you're not the first group they attacked today. They just destroyed a few merchant caravans.

PC: So they're not at full health?

DM: No, they are. But there were 11 of them before.

I mean, the PCs do the same thing. They heal all of their wounds between each encounter too, so every character is at full health.

However, regarding spells, yeah sure, even if you spend your day in your tower you probably use them up. It would be pretty interesting to have the PCs go toe-to-toe with a caster 10 levels higher than them, but all out of spells. But, as many have said, when was the last time one of your NPC casters ran out of spells?

Personally, I sometimes, if seldom, use them. When I do, it's planned ahead of time and my PCs have clues leading them to understand that it's now or never. I've had them run into a guy they were trying to kill while he was in combat with somebody else, and they decided to wait it out to (a) gauge his power, and (b) make him run out of spell/hp. I've had them sneak up on a half-dragon who had already used his breath weapon, and they knew because they found a burnt out group of trolls at the entrance of his cave. If you don't tell them the target is weakened, they won't figure it out.

I also agree with Fibinachi that for them to catch minions unarmored or sleeping is always a feelgood, but don't always allow them to go that way, or then they'll never want to face a straight fight.

And also, you really have to factor it into the XP the PCs will gain, as it lowers how much of a challenge the NPCs are.

Scow2
2013-04-21, 09:43 PM
I think it actually might be a good idea, at least at higher levels, to not have enemy spellcasters have a full complement of spells - especially not wizards and other preparation casters, who might only have a few "In case I'm attacked" spells prepared, with the rest being utility spells they've been casting throughout the day or preparing to cast. Of course, if the caster had at least a day's advance notice (Such as taking advantage of the 30-minute adventuring day) , he'd be more prepared.