[PF]Fighter Build Critique

[Keithicus]

So I've been invited to a Pathfinder game and, knowing very little about the differences between Pathfinder and 3.5 beyond the skill fix, was told that the party lacked a front-line fighter. The party has melee but really none that are made to hold the line against attackers. The DM told me PF classes only, and only 3.5 feats that do not have an equivalent in PF (only with his approval).

Character generation was 4d6, reroll ones once, then drop lowest. Standard WBL for 4th level.


Neutral Good Human (Attribute bonus to Str) Fighter 4, Favored Class = Fighter, bonus language = dwarvish
Str - 19 (+4) [16 before bonuses]
Dex - 14 (+2)
Con - 14 (+2)
Int - 13 (+1)
Wis - 12 (+1)
Cha - 12 (+1)

1st level (+13 hp)
skills - Handle Animal, Knowledge (dungeoneering), Knowledge (engineering), Survival
feats - Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Power attack
2nd level (+4 hp) - Bravery +1
skills - Climb, Intimidate, Ride, Swim
feats - Step Up
3rd level (+5 hp) - Armor training 1
skills - Handle Animal, Knowledge (dungeoneering), Knowledge (engineering), Survival
feats - Weapon Focus (Falchion)
4th level (+12 hp) - +1 Str
skills - Climb, Intimidate, Ride, Swim
feats - Weapon Specialization (Falchion)

Masterwork Cold Iron Falchion - 450g (8 lbs)
Darkwood (+4 str) Composite Longbow - 830g (1.5 lbs)
20 Arrows - 1g (3 lbs)
Masterwork Breastplate - 350g (30 lbs)
Cold Iron Morningstar - 16 gp (6 lbs)
Ring of Sustenance - 2500g
Cloak of Resistance - 1000g
Backpack - 2g (2 lbs)
Pouch, belt x2 - 2 gp (1 lb)
Bedroll - 1 sp (5 lbs)
Blanket, winter - 5 sp (2 lbs)
Whetstone - 2 cp (1 lb)
Spellbook, Wizard's - 15 gp (3 lbs)
Ink x5 - 40 gp
Inkpen - 1 sp
Thunderstone x10 - 300 gp (10 lbs)
Alchemist's fire x5 - 100 gp (10 lbs)
Sunrod x5 - 10 gp (5 lbs)
Caltrops x3 - 3 gp (6 lbs)
Smokestick x5 - 100 gp (2.5 lbs)
Tanglefoot Bag x2 - 100 gp (8 lbs)

Total weight - 99 (116 lbs light encumbrance cap)
Gold remaining - 240.28

Age: 20 years
Height: 6 ft
Weight: 210


I plan on picking up the feats that let me re-roll reflex and will saves once per day, improved critical, and the feats that add effects to critical hits (though I don't know which pair would be good to have).

I'm hoping to see how this build stacks up and if I'm really wasting anything that I can put elsewhere or if I'm massively lacking anything.

[Daftendirekt]

Why on earth are you buying a spellbook? :smallconfused:

That aside, the save bonus feats (Iron Will, etc.) are generally not worth it. There are loads of good feats to take in PF, and as a Fighter you get a feat at literally every single level. Check out the guide (https://docs.google.com/document/edit?id=15x4he4WAFYNsoeYgNG8KaEjPH2OvzF2dUjiy8BL1h 14) for ideas.

[Keithicus]

The spellbook is the only thing I could find that I'd be able to use to count as a journal for my character (see the ink and inkpen as well).

The save bonus feats aren't worth it even considering the re-roll feats? Do you have anything else in mind for me to help avoid failing a will save when I really need to?

[JadePhoenix]

Well, if you are taking Step Up, take Following Step and Step Up & Strike as well. If you're trying to be a defensive Fighter, I'd suggest using a reach weapon and/or taking Combat Patrol. Of course, you need Combat Reflexes and better Dex.


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[Keithicus]

I did not see those feats, I think I may switch things around to pick up some of those. I do like the concept with Combat Patrol, serving as a mobile defense for the non-melee.

I don't like using a reach weapon because I still want to be able to attack adjacent opponents (using something better than armor spikes).

[magwaaf]

you're a fighter, focus on one weapon early on so you get the biggest
bonus out of weapon training not to mention feats focused on that weapon.

lightning reflexes and iron will aren't worth taking unless its a prereq.

+1 cloak of resistance is not worth it for +1 you wait til you get like a +4

spellbook, ink, inkpen, thunderstone, alch fire, smoke sticks, tf bags, and caltrops are 700 gold remove the cloak of resist for another 1k gold. drop 200 more gold and get a +2 str/con ring because overall "use" items aren't as good as a boost to your primary stats.

[Keithicus]

I am dropping Lightning Reflexes and Iron Will (I might pick up Iron Will + Improved Iron Will later).

As for the gear, I don't see any rings that give any attributes in the PRD, where would I find those?

[CombatOwl]

I did not see those feats, I think I may switch things around to pick up some of those. I do like the concept with Combat Patrol, serving as a mobile defense for the non-melee.

I don't like using a reach weapon because I still want to be able to attack adjacent opponents (using something better than armor spikes).

If you really want to have fun with that, consider phalanx fighter with a reach weapon. You can use a two-handed reach weapon in one hand, enabling you to use a shield too. This lets you shield bash when inevitably the enemy gets adjacent, so you can always attack, even at adjacent squares. Remember; you can power attack and vital strike with your shield, and put spikes on the shield.

Go down the combat patrol path and also pick up stand still when you can. Try to fit step up and following step and such when you can, but combat patrol is more important for a "hold the line" type. Improved Re-position and other movement-forcing maneuvers is also very, very useful for this sort of build. Lunge is also insanely fun with this sort of thing--get an extra 5ft of reach from your 10ft reach weapon, forcing people to move into your threatened squares when they want to counter you.

Do remember to make sure you have a plethora of ways to bypass DR, because the huge weakness of these tactical reach builds is the lack of sheer damage. One level of Barbarian is also not a bad addition, due to the fast movement and raging.

[Keithicus]

How do the penetrating strike feats do for reducing damage reduction? (I haven't played anything beyond low-level in 3.5 or any other system so I can't speak for how well it goes). Also, I have the morningstar just to make sure I have all 3 kinds of physical damage.

Did not mean to have that sent... Will add to it soon.

[CombatOwl]

How do the penetrating strike feats do for reducing damage reduction? (I haven't played anything beyond low-level in 3.5 or any other system so I can't speak for how well it goes). Also, I have the morningstar just to make sure I have all 3 kinds of physical damage.

You'll need solutions to DR long before you have 12 levels of fighter. Just carry some extra spears made from various materials in an efficient quiver (1800gp) until you can afford a +4 weapon. You can fit five spears and a longbow in an efficient quiver, along with ammo for the bow and some javelins for good measure.

Because cross-class skills don't cost extra in Pathfinder, you would be well advised to pick up some knowledge skills for monster identification to give your character an excuse to know what weapon you need to use to bypass DR. That is a better answer than using a morningstar (which only does B/P, not B/P/S).

Seriously, fighters ought to go down one of three routes; two-handed fighters who simply try to kill enemies before they're a problem (easily done, since they can deal so much damage), tactical maneuver fighters with reach weapons (good for locking things down for other people to kill), or archers (because you never know when you need a machine gun). There's not much room for sword and board (or morningstar and board) fighters if you're trying to make an optimized fighter. Enemies can pretty much just ignore you because your damage output is low enough that they can safely ignore it, but you won't have the feats or reach to keep them locked down with tactical maneuvers. You can kind of sort of make it work with scimitars and crit feats, but it's still very poor compared with a two-handed fighter.

As usual, "tanking" in d&d either requires that your damage output be so high that you can't be ignored, or you have some feats that prevent enemies from being able to attack others. If you insist on doing a tank that uses a sword and shield, then go for either paladin or magus--paladins can crank up the damage pretty easily with their class features, and a magus can use lock gaze to force enemies to focus on them. Alternately, bard-barian can do it too, because lock gaze is on the bard list.

But, that's assuming you want to be optimized. I mean, there are always potential story reasons to avoid that sort of build.

[CombatOwl]

The spellbook is the only thing I could find that I'd be able to use to count as a journal for my character (see the ink and inkpen as well).

The save bonus feats aren't worth it even considering the re-roll feats? Do you have anything else in mind for me to help avoid failing a will save when I really need to?

Save bonus feats are severely suboptimal. There really are more important things to focus on in early levels with a fighter. Seriously, low level spellcasters are way too easy to kill with ranged weapons to worry about it, and by the time they get enough HP to last more than two rounds of the party firing on them you should already be able to afford a good cloak of resistance. If you're really that concerned about it, dip a level in cleric or something. That gets you as much of a boost as you're going to get from both iron will and lightning reflexes, plus the entry-level domain powers for both your chosen domains. And, you know, a fair amount of utility from the 0th and 1st level spells. Plus you can use a lot of items without UMD checks (like a wand of cure light wounds...).

Indeed, three levels of cleric can do wonders for a fighter, especially if you're not going to focus hard down the two-handed fighter or crit fighter routes. If you want to go even further, a fighter/cleric with the war domain and 8 levels of cleric can select any combat feat they need at the moment, provided that they meet prereqs, for 8 nonconsecutive rounds per day. You just have a floating feat to use for whatever you need. If you follow a neutral deity, you can also channel negative energy and pick up channel smite to smack any living creature around for extra damage.

This, mind you, is only a choice if you do not intend to focus hard down one of the optimal fighter paths. A two-handed fighter will always be better at fighting than a fighter/cleric, even if the fighter/cleric probably has a lot more overall utility.

[Certified]

With both Power Attack and a focus on Falchion something to consider are the Critical Feats. If you are looking to be a defender consider the Tripping Strike line with a Keen weapon or Improved Critical you will be triggering a trip attempted once every 4 attacks. Adding Greater Trip adds Attacks of Opportunity so other Melee characters can get in on the action. Adding in Felling Smash allows you to move and then add a free trip attempt to your single attacks as well. (From the way these feats are worded, on a Critical that may mean 2 trip attempts. I'm sure someone here can validate that for us.)

Alternatively, as mentioned Combat Patrol is great for turning your character into a wall. Here I would advise the Repositioning Strike line of Feats to keep targets in play for the other melee character and look to gear to add additional movement.

[Keithicus]

Ok so moving away from the save bonus feats, I might have come up with a line of feats for my character.

(Assuming Falchion)
1. Dodge
1. Mobility
1. Combat Reflexes
2. Stand Still
3. Power Attack
4. Weapon Focus
5. Step Up
6. Following Step
7. Step up and Strike
8. Combat Patrol
9. Improved Critical
10. Weapon Specilization
11. Greater Weapon Focus
12. Critical Focus
13. Penetrating Strike
14. Staggering Critical
15. Deafening Critical
16. Critical Mastery
17. Greater Weapon Specialization
18. Greater Penetrating Strike
19. Stunning Critical
20. ???



Seriously, fighters ought to go down one of three routes; two-handed fighters who simply try to kill enemies before they're a problem (easily done, since they can deal so much damage), tactical maneuver fighters with reach weapons (good for locking things down for other people to kill), or archers (because you never know when you need a machine gun). There's not much room for sword and board (or morningstar and board) fighters if you're trying to make an optimized fighter. Enemies can pretty much just ignore you because your damage output is low enough that they can safely ignore it, but you won't have the feats or reach to keep them locked down with tactical maneuvers. You can kind of sort of make it work with scimitars and crit feats, but it's still very poor compared with a two-handed fighter.

I was never planning on playing sword and board, the morningstar was to cover the other 2 options for physical damage types (my old DM threw skeletons at my 3.5 archer because he thought I was OP, so I had to use another weapon for that...) I apologize for any confusion brought up because of that item.

Would the feat layout I came up with be able to do decent damage while being able to do something to get in the way of guys trying to get up close to the non-melee? I'm sure I'm missing something painfully obvious to everyone else (which is why I asked for critique to begin with).

[Clericzilla]

I saw the Dwarvish language and I thought...

FOEHAMMER (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/core-races/dwarf/foehammer-fighter-dwarf)

But sadly you are human :smallfrown:

[CombatOwl]

Ok so moving away from the save bonus feats, I might have come up with a line of feats for my character.

(Assuming Falchion)
1. Dodge
1. Mobility
1. Combat Reflexes
2. Stand Still
3. Power Attack
4. Weapon Focus
5. Step Up
6. Following Step
7. Step up and Strike
8. Combat Patrol
9. Improved Critical
10. Weapon Specilization
11. Greater Weapon Focus
12. Critical Focus
13. Penetrating Strike
14. Staggering Critical
15. Deafening Critical
16. Critical Mastery
17. Greater Weapon Specialization
18. Greater Penetrating Strike
19. Stunning Critical
20. ???




I was never planning on playing sword and board, the morningstar was to cover the other 2 options for physical damage types (my old DM threw skeletons at my 3.5 archer because he thought I was OP, so I had to use another weapon for that...) I apologize for any confusion brought up because of that item.

Would the feat layout I came up with be able to do decent damage while being able to do something to get in the way of guys trying to get up close to the non-melee? I'm sure I'm missing something painfully obvious to everyone else (which is why I asked for critique to begin with).

Personally I would push step up and strike one level later and slip lunge into your 7th level feat slot. My personal preference also leans towards furious focus and the vital strike chain rather than crit effects on fighters that specialize in weapons that deal multiple dice of damage. It's even better if you can find a way to get lead blades and enlarge person on the cheap.

I'm not one for building too much reliance on critical hits, though others obviously disagree on that. Certainly it is a viable route for you to take. Certainly what you have would work.

[magwaaf]

as for the reach weapon problem, the feat "short haft" let's you use your reach weapon vs adjacent enemies

[CombatOwl]

as for the reach weapon problem, the feat "short haft" let's you use your reach weapon vs adjacent enemies

Other options include;

Phalanx Fighter--you can use your shield as your melee weapon against adjacent enemies.

Any Fighter--just make sure to wear a cestus or gauntlet, since either is a melee weapon that can be used to strike adjacent enemies while still enabling you to wield a two-handed reach weapon. Or take improved unarmed strike, I guess.

Short Haft is, afaik, a 3.5e feat from PHBII, which a lot of DMs won't allow in pathfinder games. There IS a short haft feature on the polearm master fighter archetype though. This is not as good as the shield bashing option on the phalanx fighter, but polearm master has other benefits that make it attractive.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Doing proper lockdown in Pathfinder is impossible until level 11-12 (Pin Down and Dazing Assault feats). See if your DM will allow you to use the 3E Stand Still feat. There is a PF feat called Stand Still, but it is in no way shape or form "the same feat" -- it's worthless and works completely differently.

Barring that, Step Up is the closest thing to lockdown before higher levels, though it's only useful for non-reach fighting...which kind of limits and defeats the purpose of lockdown. So I guess stick with that until you have the initiator level to grab Martial Stance (Thicket of Blades) at level 10....cripes, that's hardly any sooner than the other 2 feats.

There is also tripping. It's made of fail and I wouldn't bother building around it. A lot of creatures are outright immune to it - including ALL flying foes - and PF did not cap the multi-leg bonus at +4 like in 3E, either. Also, combat maneuvers in general took a huge nerf in PF and are much harder to succeed at.

...PF nerfed the spiked chain to the point where it's actually inferior to martial weapons and even some simple ones. But would your DM allow other 3E weapons that hit reach and adjacent that have not been led up to the execution block "updated for PF" yet?

[CombatOwl]

Doing proper lockdown in Pathfinder is impossible until level 11-12 (Pin Down and Dazing Assault feats). See if your DM will allow you to use the 3E Stand Still feat. There is a PF feat called Stand Still, but it is in no way shape or form "the same feat" -- it's worthless and works completely differently.

Tripping (or better yet, repositioning) works well enough at lower levels, if you can get your CMB high enough.


There is also tripping. It's made of fail and I wouldn't bother building around it. A lot of creatures are outright immune to it - including ALL flying foes - and PF did not cap the multi-leg bonus at +4 like in 3E, either. Also, combat maneuvers in general took a huge nerf in PF and are much harder to succeed at.

Taking Improved Trip is hardly "building around it," and most enemies are practically trippable until the levels where you could replace it with pin down anyway. CMB is not that hard to stack. Tripping is pretty easy if you get a weapon with the trip property, some enhancement bonuses (which do stack for tripping), and the Improved Trip feat. Assuming that your str and dex are decent, and you've gone a full BAB class (like the OP is doing). Weapon focus bonuses also apply if you're using the weapon to trip.

Tripping simply requires that you put some very slight effort into building for it--like picking a weapon with the trip property and taking one feat.


...PF nerfed the spiked chain to the point where it's actually inferior to martial weapons and even some simple ones. But would your DM allow other 3E weapons that hit reach and adjacent that have not been led up to the execution block "updated for PF" yet?

PF doesn't have quite the need for weapons that hit both reach and adjacent, given the numerous options for dealing with that problem available in the fighter class.

[Crustypeanut]

Instead of a spellbook, theres an actual journal in the Ultimate Equipment book.

Its cheaper than a spellbook. :)

[Keneth]

The spellbook is the only thing I could find that I'd be able to use to count as a journal for my character (see the ink and inkpen as well).

Eh? You can find a journal (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/goods-and-services/books-paper-writing-supplies) explicitly listed in the goods table. :smallconfused:

[StreamOfTheSky]

Tripping (or better yet, repositioning) works well enough at lower levels, if you can get your CMB high enough.

At low levels, you can just do enough damage to quickly kill the enemy anyway. I'd prefer if tripping were useful at mid and late levels.


Taking Improved Trip is hardly "building around it," and most enemies are practically trippable until the levels where you could replace it with pin down anyway. CMB is not that hard to stack. Tripping is pretty easy if you get a weapon with the trip property, some enhancement bonuses (which do stack for tripping), and the Improved Trip feat. Assuming that your str and dex are decent, and you've gone a full BAB class (like the OP is doing). Weapon focus bonuses also apply if you're using the weapon to trip.

Tripping simply requires that you put some very slight effort into building for it--like picking a weapon with the trip property and taking one feat..

CMD is even easier to stack than CMB. That's the problem... the CMDs quickly balloon out of control.

And you don't need a trip weapon for anything; as of an FAQ from like a year ago, any weapon can trip, all a trip weapon does is let you drop it to avoid falling prone (and if you're failing by 10+, you probably had no business attempting to trip in the first place).

Taking Improved Trip means wasting a feat on Expertise (now that is a worthless feat!), and having to put a 13+ in a stat you'd otherwise want to dump. It is hardly cheap, and unlike 3E, you don't even get the bonus attack for it - you need to wait till level 6 and another spent feat for that.


PF doesn't have quite the need for weapons that hit both reach and adjacent, given the numerous options for dealing with that problem available in the fighter class.

Like what? Lunge does nothing for threatened area for AoO builds. Regular fighter has nothing to help. The polearm archetypes tend to suck and aren't compatible w/ Lore Warden, which is probably the only fighter who has any business attempting a combat maneuver build.

3E Spiked Chain is painfully absent from PF. I miss it and its ilk dearly.

[Daftendirekt]

3E Spiked Chain is painfully absent from PF. I miss it and its ilk dearly.

Fortunately the kusarigama (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/eastern-weapons) exists largely unchanged. It fills the same role as the spiked chain, albeit with lower damage.

[Squirrel_Dude]

This is a more random point, but if you're playing a fighter, pick an archetype. Fighter's specialize in a single fighting style most of the time anyway, so you mights as well be really good at it. Obviously not all fighting styles, and thus not all archetypes are equal, but you might as well get some extra benefits.

Some good archetypes:
- Archer
- Phalanx Fighter
- Two-Handed Fighter
- Lore Warden

Some "less good" archetypes
- Free-Hand Fighter
- Mobile Fighter
- Dervish of Dawn
- Tower Shield Specialist

[StreamOfTheSky]

Hey, Mobile Fighter is my favorite! :smalltongue: Especially pre-errata when it got Weapon Training 2-4 *and* Leaping Attack. I just like it for the level 11 Rapid Attack + Whirlwind Attack + Lunge spinning mobile attack. And then at 12 you add Dazing Assault to the mix...

One important thing to note w/ archetypes is to check with your DM. By RAW, unless you get the literal "weapon training" class feature, gloves of dueling do not give you the +2, which makes any Fighter archetype that loses Weapon Training for a similar-ish ability bad choices for a mid/high level game. Most notably is the Archer, which is inferior by RAW to a regular fighter at shooting a bow due to not being able to benefit from the gloves.

Free Hand Fighter is just plain terrible, though, not sure why you listed it. It's not even an issue of "built around a grossly underpowered fighting style" -- which is also true. No, the class features themselves actually are just really really bad, on top of that.

I think Dragoon and Rough Rider are also good fighter archetypes, if you're into mounted combat and can get a sturdy mount via another PC's pet or Leadership or whatever. Brawler is pretty good if it gets to use gloves of dueling.

Lore Warden is probably the best fighter all around, though. Gains so much and loses so little.

[Squirrel_Dude]

"Less good" was me politely saying bad. I'm not a huge fan of the mobile fighter, and the dervish similar to it in thematic concept.

Tower shield specialilist is on the list because a class that specializes in AC is boring and ineffective. I know free hand is terrible. In fact it's close to the worst of them.

[Xerxus]

Tower shield specialist to level 5 is worth it if you want to use a tower shield and you have a dex of 16. Shield specialization for +5 CMD is a lot.. Phalanx soldier is only good if your party stands huddled together, wrapped up like an evokers christmas gift. Mobile fighter is at least good at its schtick, unlike the shielded fighter which is outdone by a two-weapon warrior.

I'd put the polearm master and maybe brawler on my top list.