Bard build help?

[Gwazi Magnum]

I'm currently working on a Level 5 Bard character.

The main focuses of this bard is to be:


The party face
Able to support, heal and buff with spells
Skill monkey
Can hold his own in combat, might not excel but still a competent fighter in his own right


My rolled ability scores are: 16, 16, 14, 13, 12 & 10

Stuff approved is:

Core (Obviously)
Players Handbook 2
Any of the Completes
Frostburn
Heroes of Horror
Spell Compedium
Jack of all Trades (feat)


Anything else can still be requested of but is not approved yet at the moment.

My current idea was going the Bardic Knack variant and maybe take advantage of the feat 'Snowflake Wardance' though that requires investment in Perform (Dance) which doesn't work with bardic music.

But at the same time I'm not the biggest fan of bardic music for two reasons


I don't really like the concept of my guy resorting to song in the middle of a fight
I don't like the idea of preventing my character from doing other actions like casting spells or swinging my sword

[Juntao112]

Inspirational Boost in the SpC ups your IC bonus by +1.

You want to check out the Improvisation spell in the same book.

[CombatOwl]

Bard 1/Cleric 4

Consider your one level of bard to be a sacrifice made for story reasons, or perhaps a terrible mistake your character made in their youth before they realized that clerics did it better.

Joking aside (was I joking? why not just develop a bard as a cohort?), about the only good bard in 3.5e is an enchantment specialist or someone trying to enter fochluchan lyrist. Basically the only optimal way to build one is to forget about playing music and to focus on the fairly decent spell list and better-than-enchanter BAB.

I will be honest with you; don't focus on doing bard stuff, instead just focus on buying excellent gear and otherwise pretending to be an enchantment/illusion sorcerer who'll never get 7th level or above spells. You can make up for your profound handicap with your expansive knowledge abilities, decent face skills, and huge piles of gold invested into good gear and eternal wands.

Bard is a mistake, of course, but it is one that you can live with through superior planning and by utterly ignoring bardic performance.

[Juntao112]

I think a bard fulfilling the OP's criteria can work.

Proof of concept (http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=17445)

[Chaosvii7]

Bard 1/Cleric 4

Consider your one level of bard to be a sacrifice made for story reasons, or perhaps a terrible mistake your character made in their youth before they realized that clerics did it better.

If you want to justify this without approaching it so distastefully(:smalltongue:), the Divine Inspiration feat from Dragon Magazine #333 lets you stack Bard and Cleric levels for the effects of Bardic Music; This would allow you to take levels in cleric(which yes, is the superior buffer and intermediate melee fighter) while still giving you the bardic flavour. The Initiate of Milil feat from Champions of Valor requires you to worship the deity Milil, the deity of performance and hope, and lets you do the same, if using Dragon Magazine is an issue for you.

As far as uses per day go, you'd have to shop around for ways to capitalize on it, as well as taking the Extra Music feat(which totally exists in 3.5. I think).

As far as buffing goes, I might suggest you look into Dragonfire Inspiration for buffing, as well as Draconic Auras. There's some interesting things you can do and stack, and most of it just happens to have a draconic flavor.

[Kazyan]

*returns to the land of the internet enabled*

To prevent Bardic Music from stopping you from casting, you can use the Melodic Casting feat. Instead of singing, Perform (Oratory) can substitute. Rag at your allies to fight better, or such.

Bards basically do what you're looking for as part of the package, provided you take the right buff spells. For healing, a wand of Cure Light Wounds is cheap. For fighting, get light armor, use Inspire Courage, and attack. For party-facing and skillmonkeying, have Intelligence and good Charisma. It's rather straightforward--just do what looks right.

[Gwazi Magnum]

@Cleric Advice:

I relize that Cleric is mechanically stronger, but the Bard is more the class I'm looking at this time. Extra skillpoints, Charisma as a main.

I might roll up a Cleric next time however.


*returns to the land of the internet enabled*

To prevent Bardic Music from stopping you from casting, you can use the Melodic Casting feat. Instead of singing, Perform (Oratory) can substitute. Rag at your allies to fight better, or such.

Bards basically do what you're looking for as part of the package, provided you take the right buff spells. For healing, a wand of Cure Light Wounds is cheap. For fighting, get light armor, use Inspire Courage, and attack. For party-facing and skillmonkeying, have Intelligence and good Charisma. It's rather straightforward--just do what looks right.

Oh hello again! *waves*

Glad to see your internet got working again.
And just in case you're wondering, this character is being made for the next RP you guys are starting, we discussed it briefly after your internet had died out.

Melodic casting looks good, may not be able to swing my sword but at least my spells are still operational.

Perform (Oratory) I wasn't aware could work, but if it does then that works perfectly! :smallbiggrin:

Thankfully the class is a more straight forward one which should make this an easier character to make.

If I'm using a cure light wounds wand though, would there still be much point it making it one of my known spells?

Thanks :)

P.S If you or the others have character concepts yet and there's something specific you might need the Bard to cover for you guys as support let me know so I can work it into the build.

[sambouchah]

Perform(sing), Dragonfire Inspiration(Dragon Magic), Song of the Heart(ECS I think) is pretty solid. Sing and Swing :smallbiggrin:

Edit: Redacted; I just saw the materials that are open

[Kazyan]

I'd suggest not having the spell known, as those sre more valuable than gold. The wand may very well last you the entire campaign. Our group hasn't done the whole "take away your stuff forever" thing yet.

You will be able to sword-swing with Bardic Music that doesn't require concentration, which otherwise eats your standard action. Inspire Courage doesn't say it does, but it doesn't say it doesn't. Under the less permissive DM, ask for a ruling.

I'm thinking about a Binder as a concept, which the DM said he'll look into and probably approve. Horribly disfigured from burns, she wears a purple cloak and wraps her entire body except one eye in bandages. Naberius's healing saved her (CON damage) when clerics refused on account of heresy. Result: rage issues about them. I don't know about a build at all, except that I wanna try the class, so I'll fill whichever roles are open.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Perform(sing), Dragonfire Inspiration(Dragon Magic), Song of the Heart(ECS I think) is pretty solid. Sing and Swing :smallbiggrin:

Edit: Redacted; I just saw the materials that are open

Stuff you suggested seems to be out of approved manuals so I'd need to request it individually, but I see you edited your post and caught that. :P

They look like good feats but I'd rather not focus too heavily in the music section.

I mean I don't mind using it, expecially since I now have a way to use it and not be prevented from doing other things but with my limited feats there are other areas like skills and combat I'm prioritizing.

This is for concept reasons though mind you, my character is part support but I don't want him so decked out for support that he can't do anything else effectively.

[Gwazi Magnum]

I'd suggest not having the spell known, as those sre more valuable than gold. The wand may very well last you the entire campaign. Our group hasn't done the whole "take away your stuff forever" thing yet.

You will be able to sword-swing with Bardic Music that doesn't require concentration, which otherwise eats your standard action. Inspire Courage doesn't say it does, but it doesn't say it doesn't. Under the less permissive DM, ask for a ruling.

I'm thinking about a Binder as a concept, which the DM said he'll look into and probably approve. Horribly disfigured from burns, she wears a purple cloak and wraps her entire body except one eye in bandages. Naberius's healing saved her (CON damage) when clerics refused on account of heresy. Result: rage issues about them. I don't know about a build at all, except that I wanna try the class, so I'll fill whichever roles are open.

lol.

Tbh I don't think the whole 'take away your gear forever' concept is common in d&d anyways.
That was just something my DM specifically had a thing for.
Normally from what I understand in d&d if items are taken it's temporary since the next quest is almost always getting it back.


Starting a bardic music effect is a standard action. Some bardic
music abilities require concentration, which means the bard must
take a standard action each round to maintain the ability. Even
while using bardic music that doesn’t require concentration, a bard
cannot cast spells, activate magic items by spell completion (such as
scrolls), or activate magic items by magic word (such as wands). Just
as for casting a spell with a verbal component (see Components,
page 174), a deaf bard has a 20% chance to fail when attempting to
use bardic

I just read this over again myself and if I'm reading it right, if it doesn't need a concentration check I only need the one turn to set it up. Afterwards I still can't cast spells but it if it's not requiring me to upkeep it with my standard action I should still be able to swing my sword I'm thinking.

Though it's odd as to why I can swing my sword but not cast the spell.
My guess is it's because the music counts as magic and/or spells take more focus than sword swinging does.

Not that familliar with Binders, but if I'm reading their general description right you're essentially someone who can swap roles daily. But you're going for a very anti-cleric character?

If so you may want to invest in some evil spells or stuff that specifically hurts Clerics. An unholy weapon may be a start.

[Kazyan]

Yeah, just start up the music and you're good. Bards are actually neatly designed, as far as Core goes.

An unholy weapon is out of a 5th level character's price range, but I think something like...a sacrificial-looking dagger and vials of acid would work. Marring holy symbols gets her point across nicely. Maybe a blasphemous item of 1/day shatter, as the spell.

I'm not necessarily thinking evil with a capital E, but perhaps her conscience is blunted from revenge and feelings of betrayal. N with E tendencies.

And yeah, if you make your own plot of "let's get our gear back", the DM will be happy because it gives him more time to plotcrastinate. :smalltongue:

[Shaynythyryas]

Don't believe in "forget the music, let's get spells only". There are ways and ways to benefit both.

I'd strongly suggest to request one 2th-lvl spell of Races of the Stone : Harmonize. This spell allows you to use music as a movement action instead of a standard one, which can be huge if you intent on using lots of them in a fight (for example Inspire courage, then Dragonfire Inspiration, then Inspire Greatness/Heroics... (note that at this point, you might want to consider taking Extra Music as a feat to not run out of songs too fast). Add the Melodic casting, and you'll be a very strong support.

If you aim to pick a few cleric levels (for more heals, divine spells, armor profiency - don't forget though that bard spells suffer the failure penalty if you use more than light armor) or even a +LA race, try to aim either for a Vest of Legends later, or to have approved the feat Chaos Music (from Dragon magazine) : both gives you virtual bard level for music purpose only.

[Waker]

The party face
Able to support, heal and buff with spells
Skill monkey
Can hold his own in combat, might not excel but still a competent fighter in his own right

A basic bard can do all of that off the bat. Do you think you could define a little better exactly what you want to do or did you just want general advice?
Some useful feats for any bard are: Extra Music, Melodic Casting, Subsonics, Dragonfire Inspiration,.
Some useful PrCs are: Lyrical Thamauturge, War Weaver, Virtuoso, and Sublime Chord.

[Gwendol]

Go full bard. You don't want to dilute your bardiness with cleric levels!

Level five could be like this:

Feats (assuming human):
Melodic casting (allows you to cast spell while keeping your music going, and do a perform check instead of concentration when casting spells. Pure gold.)
Jack of All Trades
Haunting melody (?) it's a great add-on to music and affects all enemies within 30'
But really, there are other feats to consider here: lingering song, extra music, versatile spellcaster, lyric spell etc
If you can take flaws, you might want to do that for the extra options given.

ACF's
Bardic Knack
Healing Hymn (traded for fascinate)
Hymn of fortification (traded for inspire competence)

Skills and skill tricks:
Collector of Stories and Never outnumbered are likely good ones for you

Spells
0 level: songbird, and the staple cantrips
1 level: Inspirational boost, grease, improvisation, expeditious retreat + ?
2 level: glitterdust, alter self, whirling blade

Note that for the full effect of healing hymn a spell must be cast from memory, not from a wand or other item.

Items: Badge of valor, bow and arrow, mithril chain shirt, + stuff

There, you should be good to go!

[Socratov]

party face: drop points in social kills
Support& Heal: pick healingspells and healing hymn acf (complete champion)
skillmonkey: PHB2's bardic knack+jack of all trades feat
rest of feats used in whip and improved trip.

build into bard 8/virtuoso 2/sublime chord 2/virtuoso 8
get melodic casting
get vest of legends

now you can buff a little bit (no DFI sadly, and no ebberron campaign setting which works wonders for bards) For the rest it should work allraight (lingering song would also be acceptable though so you can attack while having enough rounds of music to kick ass with the party or initiate a second music effect)

This should help you through most of the stuff you want. Good luck!

Oh, and don't forget to get a hat and satchel, I mean, jack of all trades and bardic knack makes you adept at archeology :smallcool:

oh darn, I've been swordsaged...

[gorfnab]

Bard Handbook (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=bsst95hdfolurljo14arlkpdr0&topic=8686)
Inspire Courage Optimization Handbook (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=bsst95hdfolurljo14arlkpdr0&topic=8936)

+1 for the post made by Gwendol. Although I would also consider Knowledge Devotion or Snowflake Wardance in place of Haunting Melody for a feat.

[Keld Denar]

How to be an effective support bard? Focus on IC, take Power Attack, use a Longsword 2handed and PA for your IC bonus. You'll get +3 damage for each +1 point of Inspire Courage bonus you have. Other than that, if you follow standard IC optimization, you should have a +4 IC by at least level 4 at the latest. That'll last you for most of your career without too much help.

Thats all you REALLY need. Everything else is gravy.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Yeah, just start up the music and you're good. Bards are actually neatly designed, as far as Core goes.

An unholy weapon is out of a 5th level character's price range, but I think something like...a sacrificial-looking dagger and vials of acid would work. Marring holy symbols gets her point across nicely. Maybe a blasphemous item of 1/day shatter, as the spell.

I'm not necessarily thinking evil with a capital E, but perhaps her conscience is blunted from revenge and feelings of betrayal. N with E tendencies.

And yeah, if you make your own plot of "let's get our gear back", the DM will be happy because it gives him more time to plotcrastinate. :smalltongue:

The Bard did always look like an interesting class gameplay wise, it was the idea of my character bursting into song that turned me away for so long.

The dagger could work, and N with E tendencies seems interesting :P

I'd rather not create a 'we lose our gear plot' it's one of the things I'm trying to avoid.
That being said, I'm fine it's like for one mission, but I'm too used to the DM mentally of "I'm bored, start with 0 gold again".

Also could you contact the DM for this campaign and ask if Flaws from Unearthed Arcana could be approved? I currently lack a way to contact him outside of Wendsday.

Enough good feats are being suggested that I'm thinking having flaws would be a good boost (It sounds odd saying that :P).


Don't believe in "forget the music, let's get spells only". There are ways and ways to benefit both.

I'd strongly suggest to request one 2th-lvl spell of Races of the Stone : Harmonize. This spell allows you to use music as a movement action instead of a standard one, which can be huge if you intent on using lots of them in a fight (for example Inspire courage, then Dragonfire Inspiration, then Inspire Greatness/Heroics... (note that at this point, you might want to consider taking Extra Music as a feat to not run out of songs too fast). Add the Melodic casting, and you'll be a very strong support.

If you aim to pick a few cleric levels (for more heals, divine spells, armor profiency - don't forget though that bard spells suffer the failure penalty if you use more than light armor) or even a +LA race, try to aim either for a Vest of Legends later, or to have approved the feat Chaos Music (from Dragon magazine) : both gives you virtual bard level for music purpose only.

Interesting spell, though I'm worried because it will take up the limited spell slots Bards have. Plus the first turn is still used up with me just casting that.

Dragonfire Inspiration looks nice, but I'm worried about the fire damage, anything resistant to fire will be immune to it.

I'd rather stay with pure Cleric, any heal spells a Cleric dip will give me I can also get from Bard.


A basic bard can do all of that off the bat. Do you think you could define a little better exactly what you want to do or did you just want general advice?
Some useful feats for any bard are: Extra Music, Melodic Casting, Subsonics, Dragonfire Inspiration,.
Some useful PrCs are: Lyrical Thamauturge, War Weaver, Virtuoso, and Sublime Chord.

It was more general advice, I'm not looking to fully specialize in anyone area.
Though melee is tempting, the lack of full BAB has me worried about boosting my attack roll in order to remain useful later on.

Extra Music might become a later investment though, since one it stacks with itself and second my music uses do increase the higher level I get.

@Subsonics: Would there be much reason for this feat outside of the DM having reason to send the monsters after me?

For PrC: I might do sublime chord, I've seen it before but that turns me from support Bard to sorcerer with music.
Not so familliar with the others (or sure where to find them), how exactly do they alter the Bard?


Go full bard. You don't want to dilute your bardiness with cleric levels!

Level five could be like this:

Feats (assuming human):
Melodic casting (allows you to cast spell while keeping your music going, and do a perform check instead of concentration when casting spells. Pure gold.)
Jack of All Trades
Haunting melody (?) it's a great add-on to music and affects all enemies within 30'
But really, there are other feats to consider here: lingering song, extra music, versatile spellcaster, lyric spell etc
If you can take flaws, you might want to do that for the extra options given.

ACF's
Bardic Knack
Healing Hymn (traded for fascinate)
Hymn of fortification (traded for inspire competence)

Skills and skill tricks:
Collector of Stories and Never outnumbered are likely good ones for you

Spells
0 level: songbird, and the staple cantrips
1 level: Inspirational boost, grease, improvisation, expeditious retreat + ?
2 level: glitterdust, alter self, whirling blade

Note that for the full effect of healing hymn a spell must be cast from memory, not from a wand or other item.

Items: Badge of valor, bow and arrow, mithril chain shirt, + stuff

There, you should be good to go!

Melodic Casting & Jack of all Trades are feats I'm already taking for sure.

Haunting melody looks fun, makes it easier on the rest of the guys with enemy debuffs.
Lingering song seems nice, I might get it but I'm used to combat ending before any Bardic music spell should be running out by.
Extra music, might save till last since it's both a stackable feat and my uses increase with my bard level anyways
Versatile spellcaster seems cool, I'll pick it up later once all my core Bard feats are down
Lyric spell just looks like it will drain my music dry (+I noticed it needs Perform 9 ranks so I can't get it till level 6 anyway's, same with Haunting Melody though... :()

Skills & Tricks:
To start with I made my ability scores like this:
STR 10, DEX 14, CON 14, INT 16, WIS 12, CHA 16

So my skills per level will be 6 + 3 INT + 1 Human = 10

I was thinking: Perform (Oratory), Diplomacy, Bluff, Sense Motive, Use Magic Device, Tumble, Sleight of hand, Gather Information

Peform = Music obviously
Diplomacy, Bluff, Sense Motive & Gather Info = Social skills, I talk through things and get info we need
Use Magic Device = Wands etc.
Tumble & Sleight Hand = To represent his agile/roguish side and how he isn't all just talk and music

and then either some Knowledge Skills or Disguise, not sure yet though.
I know I can only afford to master in one more skill though if I want the skill points for skill tricks.

For tricks, Collector of stories will probably get a good one to have.
Never outnumbered, if I have Haunting Melody I'm not sure if I have much use for the Intimidate skill.
Plus I'm unsure if I even want to invest in it for my guy.

Though if it becomes an evil campaign like the other players seem to be suggesting, it might be a good idea to have Intimidate instead of a Knowledge skill or Disguise.

For other tricks, Group-fake out looks nice except for that fact it looks like feints only deny dexterity to AC against me, and since I'll be either only using one or two attacks (Medium BAB) or using spells it's not so helpful. If it lowered their AC for everyone else though then this would be a different story.

Social Recovery looks kind of vital for me, using two of my highest skills to work with one another.

Note on spells: I have so limited spells per day I'd rather not fill them up with spells that only serve to buff/help me but rather aid the team.


party face: drop points in social kills
Support& Heal: pick healingspells and healing hymn acf (complete champion)
skillmonkey: PHB2's bardic knack+jack of all trades feat
rest of feats used in whip and improved trip.

build into bard 8/virtuoso 2/sublime chord 2/virtuoso 8
get melodic casting
get vest of legends

now you can buff a little bit (no DFI sadly, and no ebberron campaign setting which works wonders for bards) For the rest it should work allraight (lingering song would also be acceptable though so you can attack while having enough rounds of music to kick ass with the party or initiate a second music effect)

This should help you through most of the stuff you want. Good luck!

Oh, and don't forget to get a hat and satchel, I mean, jack of all trades and bardic knack makes you adept at archeology :smallcool:

oh darn, I've been swordsaged...

Why exactly is the whip so useful for Bards?
I'm unfamiliar with how they work.

Looks like I'm kind of recreating an old treasure hunter concept I had without relising it! :P


Bard Handbook (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=bsst95hdfolurljo14arlkpdr0&topic=8686)
Inspire Courage Optimization Handbook (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=bsst95hdfolurljo14arlkpdr0&topic=8936)

+1 for the post made by Gwendol. Although I would also consider Knowledge Devotion or Snowflake Wardance in place of Haunting Melody for a feat.

I looked at the Bard's guide already, thanks though.
As for the other guide, I'll go look at it now but I'm not sure if I want to be specced around one music ability.

I'm considering snowflake wardance for the attack roll boost, but it also needs me to train in an entirely different perform skill which isn't part of the music ability. But then again, would Bardic knacks boost to Perform (Dancing) work for that feat?


How to be an effective support bard? Focus on IC, take Power Attack, use a Longsword 2handed and PA for your IC bonus. You'll get +3 damage for each +1 point of Inspire Courage bonus you have. Other than that, if you follow standard IC optimization, you should have a +4 IC by at least level 4 at the latest. That'll last you for most of your career without too much help.

Thats all you REALLY need. Everything else is gravy.

That looks solid, but Bards with a Medium BAB won't exactly be the most accurate before the PA penalties even.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

For a guy chanting war hymns in combat, think "We Will Rock You" by Queen, or... well... just about anything done by Manowar. Don't think of it as 'combat'. Think of it as the world's grandest mosh pit.

For Bardic Healing, think Healing Hymn ACF from Complete Champions. Basically, dumps Fascinate (definitely a forgettable ability), and lets you add your Perform ranks to any Conjuration (healing) spell. With this, your Cure Light Wounds, Mass spell can be healing a minimum of 50 points a damage a piece. Not too shabby, if you want to focus on Healing.

As far as Inspiration... I like to go DFI, simply due to having more bonus D6's to damage to everyone's attack is never a bad thing.

However, if that isn't available, may I direct you to the PrC 'War Chanter'? Specifically, the capstone ability Song of the Legion. In effect, the whole party gets full BAB. Yes, even the casters. Yes, even iterative attacks. Yes, even you.

But wait, it gets better. This also works on summons. Say the party caster tosses out four or so dire badgers. Now they've also got a full BAB. Plus whatever bonuses from Inspire Courage. Suddenly, disposable minions turn into cruise missiles.

[Gwazi Magnum]

For a guy chanting war hymns in combat, think "We Will Rock You" by Queen, or... well... just about anything done by Manowar. Don't think of it as 'combat'. Think of it as the world's grandest mosh pit.

For Bardic Healing, think Healing Hymn ACF from Complete Champions. Basically, dumps Fascinate (definitely a forgettable ability), and lets you add your Perform ranks to any Conjuration (healing) spell. With this, your Cure Light Wounds, Mass spell can be healing a minimum of 50 points a damage a piece. Not too shabby, if you want to focus on Healing.

As far as Inspiration... I like to go DFI, simply due to having more bonus D6's to damage to everyone's attack is never a bad thing.

However, if that isn't available, may I direct you to the PrC 'War Chanter'? Specifically, the capstone ability Song of the Legion. In effect, the whole party gets full BAB. Yes, even the casters. Yes, even iterative attacks. Yes, even you.

But wait, it gets better. This also works on summons. Say the party caster tosses out four or so dire badgers. Now they've also got a full BAB. Plus whatever bonuses from Inspire Courage. Suddenly, disposable minions turn into cruise missiles.

Eh, still seems like singing in my mind.
But with Perform (Oratory) it's more shouting out orders anyway's which I'm fine with.

Looks like with Healing Hymn I have a reason to learn the heal spells rather than have them as a wand.

DFI I will admit is generally better, but the fact it's 'fire' damage which can be resisted concerns me.

Which book is War Chanter from again?
And is this full BAB an activated or passive ability?

[Gwendol]

DFI is not generally better than regular IC. Don't forget that it does not give a bonus to hit, and with regular IC your fighters can use the bonus to power attack, with 2:1 damage on top of damage bonus. So with an IC of +3 you are looking at +9 damage compared with 3d6. However, that extra damage is static and so get multiplied on crits, charges, etc, while the extra dice do not.

If you can spend the music, spells, and rounds, getting both going is of course best.

War chanter is from complete warrior, and inspire legion is a bardic music ability.

[Kazyan]

Update: DM says up to two flaws are allowed, so go ahead. You can never have enough feats.

(Also, I get to play my Binder.)

[Gwazi Magnum]

DFI is not generally better than regular IC. Don't forget that it does not give a bonus to hit, and with regular IC your fighters can use the bonus to power attack, with 2:1 damage on top of damage bonus. So with an IC of +3 you are looking at +9 damage compared with 3d6. However, that extra damage is static and so get multiplied on crits, charges, etc, while the extra dice do not.

If you can spend the music, spells, and rounds, getting both going is of course best.

War chanter is from complete warrior, and inspire legion is a bardic music ability.

Isn't DFI a variant though so I can't get both?


Update: DM says up to two flaws are allowed, so go ahead. You can never have enough feats.

(Also, I get to play my Binder.)

Sweet! Time to go feats galore! :D

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Eh, still seems like singing in my mind.
But with Perform (Oratory) it's more shouting out orders anyway's which I'm fine with.Just start cribbing the notes of your average drill sergeant and you'll do fine.


Looks like with Healing Hymn I have a reason to learn the heal spells rather than have them as a wand.Perhaps, it's still not as good as a Cleric, since you don't have all of the 'fix this status effect' spells, but it'll provide healing. Also, Healing Hymn works for everyone in the party casting Conjuration (Healing) spells.


DFI I will admit is generally better, but the fact it's 'fire' damage which can be resisted concerns me.Draconic Heretage allows you to change the flavor to 'Sonic', which is FAR harder to resist.

And yes, you can 'twist' both DFI and IC.


Which book is War Chanter from again?
And is this full BAB an activated or passive ability?

Complete Warrior. It's a Bardic Music. However, War Chanter also gives you the ability to maintain two different songs at the same time. With the BAB boost from Song of Legion, you won't miss the to-hit bonus from IC nearly as badly, however you can still 'twist' IC and DFI if you want. You'll burn through song uses per day in a hurry, but War Chanter gives you extra uses of Bardic Music anyways.

The best part about Song of Legion is that it affects everyone within the area of the song. Including the casters. Including summons. And there's an instrument called an Alphorn from Complete Adventurer which gives you a bardic music radius of 'miles'... talk about boosting a whole army at once...

[Kazyan]

Another update: DM says Magic Item Compendium and Sandstorm are allowed, Gwazi.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Just start cribbing the notes of your average drill sergeant and you'll do fine.

Perhaps, it's still not as good as a Cleric, since you don't have all of the 'fix this status effect' spells, but it'll provide healing. Also, Healing Hymn works for everyone in the party casting Conjuration (Healing) spells.

Draconic Heretage allows you to change the flavor to 'Sonic', which is FAR harder to resist.

And yes, you can 'twist' both DFI and IC.



Complete Warrior. It's a Bardic Music. However, War Chanter also gives you the ability to maintain two different songs at the same time. With the BAB boost from Song of Legion, you won't miss the to-hit bonus from IC nearly as badly, however you can still 'twist' IC and DFI if you want. You'll burn through song uses per day in a hurry, but War Chanter gives you extra uses of Bardic Music anyways.

The best part about Song of Legion is that it affects everyone within the area of the song. Including the casters. Including summons. And there's an instrument called an Alphorn from Complete Adventurer which gives you a bardic music radius of 'miles'... talk about boosting a whole army at once...

Looking at it, the spells may be something of the Bard I want.

Plus the reduce skill points will be annoying as well.

Also looking at it I can't get it till level 7 anyways because of the BAB +4 requirment, (that or multiclass which with Bard I'd rather not do).