[PFS] Whip Bard

[Sage Maduin]

After brainstorming about all kinds of different support characters I could make, I've decided an aspect I'd like to focus on is helping other characters get extra attacks. I like that a whip allows me to stay out of the way of the melee characters and trip the opponent so the melee characters get AoOs when the enemy stands back up, and ultimately at level 9 I can take Greater Trip and get AoOs when the enemy first falls also. I'd really like it to be a bard so I can be performing and cast Haste and such to support in more typical ways as well.

Starting stats I'm looking at:
STR: 17
DEX: 12
CON: 13
INT: 13
WIS: 10
CHA: 14

Feats I'm looking at:
Level 1 (Human Bonus Feat): Combat Expertise, Improved Trip
Level 3: Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Whip
Level 5: Weapon Focus: Whip
Level 7: Whip Mastery? Or maybe something to boost my casting side?
Level 9: Greater Trip (Finally)
Level 11: Discordant Voice (Just because I love this feat)

So roughly, combat would be giving some buffs...Inspire Courage, Good Hope, Haste, and then standing back a bit for some trips and try and maximize how many times my party gets to attack.

I know it's an atypical trip build because more often people go a more combat oriented class and focus on ways they can deal damage for themselves once the enemy is tripped, but I'm not as interested in that.

Am I way off the mark or does my concept have some merit? I am very new to tabletop RPGs so I know I could be missing obvious things or just not know enough about high level gaming to know what actually can work. I know one issue to consider is what will I do in fights where the opponent cannot be tripped - I think I'm just planning on emphasizing casting (maybe a wand or two?) in those encounters. I'm not really interested in using a more standard reach/trip weapon because I already have a PFS that uses reach weapons so I'm trying to incorporate some variety.

Thoughts? Suggestions? If you think the idea is way off the mark, let me know if you have other ideas for a character (hopefully bard?) that can maximize the number of attacks my teammates can make.

[Gwazi Magnum]

I don't know much on trips so I can't help you much there.
But it seems solid, and it's good when a player is willing to play support instead of one of the *stab* *kill* types.

As for other ways to help your allies out, try to gain some spells like sleep, daze or anything that disables or throws status afflictions on the enemies. Some of these won't be under the Bard spells so you may need to resort to wands for a few however.

Outside of that if you invest in Tumble and move around to flank the enemies you set up a small attack bonus for your allies and easily set them up for sneak attacks if anyone in your team happens to be using those.

[Namfuak]

Bards are already proficient with whips, so no need for EWP. Weapon focus is kind of wasted, since you only need to make a touch attack anyway, and it looks like you have pretty decent strength (putting 1 in from leveling and spending extra money on a +2 strength item will probably be all you ever need). You might want to put one of those feats into something like improved critical (rapier) for an easy source of damage when you aren't able to trip your foes. If it's allowed, Jotunbrud from Races of Faerun will work really well, it basically allows you to treat yourself as a large creature when it's beneficial (such as during trip attempts). Otherwise, ask the party wizard nicely for enlarge person.

If you are allowed non-PHB races, Half-Giants get a similar special ability to Jotunbrud, Powerful Build, which allows them to treat themselves as one size category larger (as well as +2 strength and +2 con). The main advantage of this is that it stacks with size increases from other sources, so if you were to use expansion to make yourself large, you would count as huge for tripping. They have +1 LA though, so if you aren't allowed to buy it off it may not be worth it. They are also giants rather than humanoids, so enlarge person won't work on them. However, one level of psychic warrior will get you expansion, which does the same thing but with no type restrictions. They also get a few racial power points, so you could manifest it a few times a day. If you went this route, you would want to pick up practiced manifester to make it last as long as possible.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Something else I just noticed, you're giving yourself feats every 2 levels.

You gain feats every three levels, not two.

So your feat progression would be like this:
Level 1, 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, 18.

[Namfuak]

Something else I just noticed, you're giving yourself feats every 2 levels.

You gain feats every three levels, not two.

So your feat progression would be like this:
Level 1, 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, 18.

This is a good point. If you could, it would be helpful if you gave us either the list of sources you are allowed to use, or at least an idea of what you expect to be on the table (just Player's Handbook, all of SRD, etc).

[Gazzien]

PFS = PathFinder Society = feats every odd level, yes?

[Ailowynn]

Something else I just noticed, you're giving yourself feats every 2 levels.

You gain feats every three levels, not two.

So your feat progression would be like this:
Level 1, 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, 18.

I may be wrong, but doesn't the PFS tag stand for Pathfinder Society? Which would make this a Pathfinder game, meaning that (a) the feat progression is correct and (b) he's using the PF core not PHB.

EDIT: ninjad

[Sage Maduin]

EDIT: Scratch that, I was right the first time on feats, haha. I assumed I was mistaken since it certainly wouldn't be the first time I've misunderstood rules.


This is for Pathfinder Society play, so there are limitations on races and crafting isn't allowed...that's the short version of the restrictions. Most things from Core, Advanced Player's, Ultimate Magic, and Ultimate Combat are allowed though (except maybe races.)

[Namfuak]

I may be wrong, but doesn't the PFS tag stand for Pathfinder Society? Which would make this a Pathfinder game, meaning that (a) the feat progression is correct and (b) he's using the PF core not PHB.

I feel silly now. Most of the first part of my post still applies though, unless trip attacks changed significantly in pathfinder.

[Sage Maduin]

You are correct that bard's start with whip proficiency - I forgot about that. So updated feats could be...

1: Combat Expertise, Improved Trip
3: Weapon Focus: Whip (Prereq for Whip Mastery)
5: Whip Mastery (Doesn't do much good on its own because I'll have high Acrobatics)
7: Improved Whip Mastery (Allows me to threaten 5' with whip which might be useful for flanking? But that's basically 3 feats for +1 to CMB and potential flanking when I might want to use the whip to keep my distance anyway...)
9: Greater Trip
11: Discordant Voice

So feats 3/5/7 aren't very efficient at the moment...maybe I should invest in a couple ranged combat feats for fights where the enemy can't be tripped due to flight or no legs, or maybe even size in some settings?

[grarrrg]

5: Whip Mastery (Doesn't do much good on its own because I'll have high Acrobatics)

Allow me to "lol wut?".

Whip Mastery offsets the 3 main problems with using a Whip.

>Using a Whip at close range (adjacent) will cause you to provoke an AoO.
>Whips naturally do Nonlethal damage.
>Whips cannot damage creatures with Armor bonus +1 or higher, or Natural Armor +3 or higher.

I'd say Whip Mastery is practically necessary for ANY Whip-using.

Dipping Fighter for a few levels would be a quick way to snag a few feats.
I'd recommend Lore Warden (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/lore-warden). You get Combat Expertise free at 2nd level (AND still keep your 1st and 2nd level bonus feats). That's 3 feats for 2 class levels.
Going to Lore Warden 3rd gets you an untyped +2 on all CMB checks.


You might also want to consider swapping your STR and DEX scores around, taking Weapon Finesse and (at some point) the Fury's Fall (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/fury-s-fall-combat) feat.
This way you can get double DEX to your Trip attempts. And you'll have that much higher AC and Initiative.

[Sage Maduin]

I've done a LOT of editing now.

Here's my latest draft:
Bard 1: Agile Maneuver and Weapon Focus Whip
Bard 1/Lore Warden 1:Combat Reflexes (Fighter Bonus Feat)
Bard 1/Lore Warden 2:Combat Expertise (free), Improved Trip (lvl 3 feat), Whip Mastery (Fighter Bonus Feat)
Bard 3/Lore Warden 2: Open...
Bard 5/Lore Warden 2: Improved Whip Mastery
Bard 7/Lore Warden 2: Greater Trip
Bard 9/Lore Warden 2: Discordant Voice

Stats:
STR: 11
DEX: 17 (Bump to 18 at level 4)
CON: 14 (Bump to 15 at 12 I guess...might depend on equipment by then)
INT: 10
WIS: 10
CHA: 15 (Bump to 16 at level 8 I guess?)


Now I'm trying to find a good feat for level 5. Maybe something to boost spell casting since I imagine that is what I will do when tripping isn't an option.

[Sage Maduin]

Dipping Fighter for a few levels would be a quick way to snag a few feats.
I'd recommend Lore Warden (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/lore-warden). You get Combat Expertise free at 2nd level (AND still keep your 1st and 2nd level bonus feats). That's 3 feats for 2 class levels.
Going to Lore Warden 3rd gets you an untyped +2 on all CMB checks.

Haha that's funny - I was typing a lot of this same stuff as you posted. I think taking Lore Warden to 3 might be giving up a little bit more bard than I want to though.

I see what you mean about Whip Mastery now after studying it a bit more - it's in my most recent draft still as you can see.

Edit: Any thoughts on taking Flagbearer as the feat at level 5 for times that I can't trip? I wish I could find something potent for spells but I'm still looking.

[VexingFool]

Pretty sure you want Weapon Finesse instead of Agile Manuevers. Weapon finesse would use your DEX bonus for regular attacks and the trip, disarm and sunder combat manuevers. Agile Manuevers applies DEX to all combat manuevers but does not affect regular attacks.

For other feats I would suggest Dazzling Display or Improved Disarm. Use your Versatile performance for intimidate if you go for Dazzling Display. Improved Disarm is very whip oriented for snatching things from the bad guys hands.

If you are using Traits pick up the Prehensile Whip trait.

[Golkiwu]

Pretty sure you want Weapon Finesse instead of Agile Manuevers.

OP stated in the beginning that he has a STR 17 and Dex 12. Finesse is useless to him.

The Dazzling display is a great suggestion though.

[grarrrg]

OP stated in the beginning that he has a STR 17 and Dex 12. Finesse is useless to him.


:smallsigh:
And in one of the OP's more recent posts, he swapped them.
So Finesse is now super handy.



Here's my latest draft:
Bard 1: Agile Maneuver

You do want Weapon Finesse here, you don't need Agile Maneuvers at all, handy linky (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/agile-maneuvers-combat)
"If I have Weapon Finesse, can I apply my Dex bonus to my combat maneuver checks instead of my Strength bonus??
It depends on what combat maneuver you're attempting. Disarm, sunder, and trip are normally the only kinds of combat maneuvers in which you’re actually using a weapon to perform the maneuver"


Stats:
STR: 11
DEX: 17 (Bump to 18 at level 4)
CON: 14 (Bump to 15 at 12 I guess...might depend on equipment by then)
INT: 10
WIS: 10
CHA: 15 (Bump to 16 at level 8 I guess?)

Sadly, Improved (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/improved-trip-combat---final) and Greater Trip have an INT 13 requirement.
Annoying as all heck, but it's there.
So you need high DEX, med/high CHA, and some CON and INT...I think we're going to have to dump your WIS a little, the only thing you use it for is Will Save, and Bards at least have a good one.

STR: 10
DEX: 17 (15+race)
CON: 14
INT: 13
WIS: 8
CHA: 15

Level ups go into DEX, CHA, then maybe INT, your call.