TWF/Eagle Claw

[Rongar]

I'm new to this site, and I've a question about our 3.5 game. We have a guy who wants to build a Rogue using Two Weapon Fighting (PH), along with taking Exotic Weapon Proficiency (PH) in Eagle Claw (Sandstorm). He then wants to take the Feat Eagle's Fury (Sandstorm).

Level aside here, and just using what I've listed, can he use a Eagle Claw in each hand (TWF) and use the Eagle's Fury Feat? Both TWF and Eagle's Fury require Full Round Actions to use. TWF gives a -2/-2 penalty if he uses two Eagle Claws since it's a light weapon. The Eagle's Fury Feat also gives a -2 penalty to attack, but that's because you get an extra attack when using an Eagle's Claw. So each hand attacks twice per round and gets the penalty.

So a Rogue with the above Feats and using a Eagle Claw in each hand would get 4 attacks per round with each of those attacks at a -4/hit each (I'm not adding BAB, Str, or anything else because it's irrelevant to my question)? Or would that Rogue not be able to stack the Eagle's Fury Feat with the TWF Feat since they both state that you need to use the Full Attack action? I personally think it's do-able, but want some serious opinions and/or proof of why this cannot work. Thanx for your time everyone. :smallsmile:

[Socratov]

as I read it (courtesy of dndtools) you can use eagle's fury only when full attacking. So if hte rogue full attacks, he can use the feat, and while dual wielding eagle claws, yes he gets both extra attacks.

[JadePhoenix]

While Eagle's Fury stacks with TWF, it only grants one extra attack, not one extra attack per eagle claw. In your example, a Rogue with TWF and Eagle's Fury would get three attacks at -4 to hit.

[Rongar]

Thanx Socratov. Appreciate the input. :smallsmile:

I've a question for JadePhoenix though. Based on what you posted here as an answer, where does it say it only affects one of the attacks and not both? The description says you get 'one' extra attack with an Eagle's Claw. I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say it's assuming you aren't using TWF, but I don't see where it matters personally.

I could take Weapon Focus in Eagle Claw, and it would apply to both. As a 4th level Fighter, and having all the appropriate feats, I could take Weapon Specialization and it would apply to both. So why doesn't Eagle's Fury apply to both? This is also assuming that TWF is being used when using all of the above.

Any more input is greatly appreciated. :)

[Garret Dorigan]

Because Eagle's Fury specifically states "You can get one extra...". It follows the same line of thinking as Rapid Shot. As such, it would stack with an extra attack due to Haste or a Speed enchantment.

EDIT: To elucidate, let's say that you have a BAB of 16, you're using two Eagle's Claws, you have the Eagle's Fury feat, you have TWF, ITWF, GTWF, and you are Hasted.

You then have four main hand attacks (+16, +11, +6, +1) from your BAB, you have three (+16, +11, +6) from your TWF feat line, one from Haste (+16), and one from Eagle's Fury (+16) before any minuses are applied, those are just your equivalent bases.

So, if you were to use all of the attacks available to you it would grant a -6 to all of your attacks, and your adjusted to-hit in a Full Attack would be; Main Hand (+10, +5, +0, -5), Off-hand (+10, +5, +0), Haste (+10), and Eagle's Fury (+10).

[Rongar]

OK. But isn't the 'one' extra attack assuming you are only using it in one hand?

I hear ya on the Rapid Shot Feat, but you're using a Bow, not a melee weapon...

[Garret Dorigan]

That would be true if what I quoted wasn't directly followed by "...per round." With that specific verbiage, even if you were using 8 of them with an Anthropomorphic Giant Squid, you would still only get one.

[Socratov]

You know how to wield the eagle's claw with deadly speed.
Prerequisite
DEX 15, profi ciency with eagle's claw,
Benefit
You can get one extra attack per round with an eagle's claw (see page 96). The attack is at your highest base attack bonus, but each attack you make in that round (the extra one and the normal ones) takes a -2 penalty. You must take a full attack action to use this feat.
the assumption here is that you use 1 eagle's claw. I can see why one would grant only 1 extra attack. However the complete is one extra attack per round with an eagle's claw this shoudl open up the debate if it would stack with haste or rapid shot (if thrown). Besides, is the eagle's claw part in that sentence used as a reference to the weapon in the general sense or is it a reference to the weapon used in the attack? In the former interpretation you are right to assume rapid shot like ruling. In the latter interpretation my explanation would be right.

[Greenish]

OK. But isn't the 'one' extra attack assuming you are only using it in one hand?No. It doesn't say so, it gives no indication that it should so be assumed. "You can get one extra attack per round with an eagle's claw", whether you wield one of them or a dozen.

Just like you can't apply Power Attack twice to get past the BAB cap, you can't apply Eagle's Fury twice to get two extra attacks (and even if you could, the penalties would stack).
I hear ya on the Rapid Shot Feat, but you're using a Bow, not a melee weapon...You could be TWFing thrown weapons (or crossbows, or whatever), it doesn't matter.

[Garret Dorigan]

Basically, it follows the precedent of most rulings that if there is ambiguity on additive bonuses, except in the cases of order of application (in which case the order is in whatever is most adventageous), whichever interpretation gives the fewest bonuses is the correct one.

Thus Haste's use of "...any weapon" (not 'every') and this use of "...an Eagle's Claw" (not 'any'), with how other such murky verbiage has been used it has been ruled by WOTC in other cases to mean singular.

EDIT: Note that this same precedent on verbiage use gives credence to the argument that using TWF with two 'Speed' weapons results in one extra attack with each weapon due to the Speed enhancement's usage of "...one extra attack with it.", which would stack with feats like Eagle's Fury but not with a Haste effect.

[Socratov]

Basically, it follows the precedent of most rulings that if there is ambiguity on additive bonuses, except in the cases of order of application (in which case the order is in whatever is most adventageous), whichever interpretation gives the fewest bonuses is the correct one.

Thus Haste's use of "...any weapon" (not 'every') and this use of "...an Eagle's Claw" (not 'any'), with how other such murky verbiage has been used it has been ruled by WOTC in other cases to mean singular.

EDIT: Note that this same precedent on verbiage use gives credence to the argument that using TWF with two 'Speed' weapons results in one extra attack with each weapon due to the Speed enhancement's usage of "...one extra attack with it.", which would stack with feats like Eagle's Fury but not with a Haste effect.
(emphasis mine)

there you have a point. Though I stand by my interpretation of referencing to the specific eagle's claw you use eagle's fury with. I think the best course of action for OP is to discuss it with the DM in question and rpesent the interpretation problem (general weapon reference or specific weapon reference).

[JadePhoenix]

I think that's a very clear cut case. It gives you one extra attack, it never says it gives you one extra attack per wepon. It works just like several other abilities, such as Rapid Shot and Flurry of Blows. Heck, with the right feats/prestige classes (Bloodstorm Blade/Shou Disciple?) you could stack it with Rapid Shot and Flurry of Blows, even. But it's a single attack. If your DM wants to rule otherwise, though, lucky you. :smallbiggrin:

[Rongar]

A lot of good points by all, but nothing conclusive to me since it's everyone's opinions. Yes, it's similar to Rapid Shot and Flurry of Blows, but it's still different.

I also don't remember ever seeing a Feat that did this for any other weapon. If any one can find that info, that would help out greatly I would think. I've had no luck finding one so far...

I hate the, as someone else stated, 'murky' wording that is used in so many things in the DnD game.

[Darrin]

I also don't remember ever seeing a Feat that did this for any other weapon. If any one can find that info, that would help out greatly I would think. I've had no luck finding one so far...


There are a couple feats that grant you an extra attack with a particular weapon. Spinning Halberd, for example. However, the wording is entirely different.

Based on all the TWF feats I've seen... my gut says you get only one extra attack, even if you're wielding two eagle claws. But I can see there's enough ambiguity to read it as each eagle claw gets an extra attack. Hmm. I may have to mention that in the TWF OffHandbook, particularly for MWFers (Diopsid = 4 extra attacks, Anthropomorphic Giant Octopus = 6 extra attacks).