[3.5] Can a Silent Image do this?

[SapereAude1490]

Can a silent image do this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dO2rM-l-vdQ&feature=youtu.be&t=37s

Also, bear in mind I'm a Gnome LvL 2 Wizard Illusionist with Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus: Illusion. (I have the Noncombatant Flaw)

[TuggyNE]

No. It's a Figment, and can't imitate a Glamer, which would be needed to conceal objects or creatures.

Nice clip though.

[SapereAude1490]

Why not? It's still a figment. I mean, it's a wall that looks like the corridor. It has no depth, but for someone looking from afar it doesn't have to.

I found this here http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060228a


A figment can't make the party look like they aren't there. It can, however, make them a place to hide. You could use a figment spell to make an illusory house, a grove of trees (with leafy branches for concealment), or even a hill or big rock. The party will be concealed so long as the characters stay underneath the illusion.

If I create an illusory wall and hide behind it, that's not a glamer is it? :smallconfused:

[Thiyr]

I would say it could work, but it wouldn't work at angles other than head-on unless you could find a convincing way to make it works as such. While you can't make yourself invisible, you could make an illusory wall depicting the image of what's behind you, sans you. Another system (the more recent edition of Hackmaster) has a spell which is functionally what you're trying to describe (Illusionary Mural, iirc), and while I don't have the book to look up precisely how they deal with it, the big flaw is that if you look at it from too much of an angle, it behaves like any flat image would, and the effect is obvious. Other unforeseen issues would include anything passing through the mural would disappear without some kind of readied action to modify the image, and even that would have its limits I would think.

Edit: admittedly, this is part of why I have issues with figments vs glamers. Figments can't change how something looks, just create the image of something else. But as illusions are non-solid and have no minimum size, what's to stop you from say, instead of preparing Disguise Wall or some other such nonsensically specific spell designed purely as an example for this post just casting silent image and creating an image of what you want the wall to look like as a paper-thin layer in front of it. Same net effect. It always felt like kinda a needless distinction to make. What is a figment if not just a visual glamer on otherwise invisible particles in the air? What is a glamer if not a figment applied to an object rather than empty space?

[TuggyNE]

I'm kind of annoyed that WotC undermined their own rules like that, but whatever. Apparently their idea of common sense and mine aren't the same. :smallsigh:

[SapereAude1490]

Yeah, it would really depend on the angle. The reason I'm asking is because sometimes you can't just create Silent Image trees or rocks or whatever to hide in. Those items would seem out of place and I'm just looking for alternative options. He who fails to plan, plans to fail as they say.

[TuggyNE]

Yeah, it would really depend on the angle. The reason I'm asking is because sometimes you can't just create Silent Image trees or rocks or whatever to hide in. Those items would seem out of place and I'm just looking for alternative options. He who fails to plan, plans to fail as they say.

Well, if the tactic works at all, it should definitely be more situational and limited than invisibility, because, y'know, lower-level slot! So assume it won't be your mainstay and work from there.

[SapereAude1490]

That is true. Invisibility would be much more useful but that way only I can hide and maybe 2 other players and it requires 3 standard actions. (and besides, I can't even cast 2nd lvl spells)

And in the video I linked, the corridor is (probably)often traversed and if someone created an image of a bunch of boxes a guard might wonder how did they got there, and would proceed to investigate, defeating the point of making an illusion in the first place.

[ericgrau]

It could make a flat image of an empty corridor and the DM might call for a spot check for random passer-byers to notice it was flat. But anyone stopping to take a look would easily see that it's flat, ranks in spot or not.

The way you do that with technology is to make the image appear slightly different depending on the viewing angle. That way each of the viewer's eyes will see the differences they need to see to assemble a 3D image, as will a moving observer looking at it from slightly different angles. Silent image can't make an image look different from different angles.

You could also make a 3D illusion of an empty corridor, but then that wouldn't cover up the occupant so it's pointless.

A similar trick that does work is to make a false wall that shortens a corridor by a foot or two so that no one notices, then hiding behind it. And no one gets a save unless they stop to look at it, so it works reliably on a group of passer-byers. Whereas with an illusion blocking their way one of them is bound to get lucky on the will save and blow your cover.

[Nettlekid]

It could make a flat image of an empty corridor and the DM might call for a spot check for random passer-byers to notice it was flat. But anyone stopping to take a look would easily see that it's flat, ranks in spot or not.

The way you do that with technology is to make the image appear slightly different depending on the viewing angle. That way each of the viewer's eyes will see the differences they need to see to assemble a 3D image, as will a moving observer looking at it from slightly different angles. Silent image can't make an image look different from different angles.

Can't it? Nothing says Silent Image is only 2D. Couldn't you make like, an illusion of a large boulder with contours and shape, such that it would be seen from different angles and appear as it would from those different angles, by virtue of it having that shape? All the while you're hiding in the inside of that fake boulder. For a corridor then I agree, it would have to be a 2D screen, but what if you very cleverly created a concave lens-like shape in such a way that when faced straight on it would look like the corridor, and when viewed from an angle it would appear as it should from that angle (due to the stretching or whatever of the concave shape). Also, since you can move the image, if it's just one person looking at you, could you try to change the illusion to fit whatever they'd be looking at from whatever angle they're at?

[ericgrau]

You can make 3D objects and hide in a fake boulder. But then the enemy would see a boulder. Making yourself seem to disappear is another thing. I added another viable trick to my post, not knowing there'd be an immediate reply.

I was saying you couldn't make an image look different from different angles, which is the trick you need to imitate the video.

If there's only 1 observer he still has 2 eyes, so it won't seem 3D even if you adjust the image as he moves with computer-like precision. Each eye needs to see something slightly different. At a far distance he might not notice though.

[Bakeru]

Figments can't change how something looks, just create the image of something else. But as illusions are non-solid and have no minimum size, what's to stop you from say, instead of preparing Disguise Wall or some other such nonsensically specific spell designed purely as an example for this post just casting silent image and creating an image of what you want the wall to look like as a paper-thin layer in front of it. Same net effect. It always felt like kinda a needless distinction to make. What is a figment if not just a visual glamer on otherwise invisible particles in the air? What is a glamer if not a figment applied to an object rather than empty space?Illusory Wall is permanent. Silent Image is Concentration +3 rounds. Huge difference. You'd need Persistent Image (spell level 5) to even get minute/caster level, but to truly mirror Illusory Wall, you'd need Permanent Image (spell level 6). By comparison, Illusory Wall is spell level 4.

Except for Persistent (1min/level), Programmed (permanent until triggered, then 1round/level) and Permanent Image (permanent), all "[descriptor] Image" spells have a duration of concentration +3 rounds, and none of them can move outside of a designated area. Invisibility and other person/object bound spells have longer duration and follow their targets.

So, basically? I don't see much of a problem with a silent image hiding you in one place. You just have to cast it again... and again... and again... whenever you need it.

[OzymandiasX]

You could use Silent Image to make a flat wall.

You could use Silent Image to make a flat wall that, from a particular angle, looked like it continued onward. (Essentially a painting on the wall) An observer moving or carefully looking at it could realize that it is 'painted' onto a flat wall.

You could NOT use Silent Image to make an image of the actual empty hallway appear on a flat illusion surface (as show in the video).

[yugi24862]

You could use Silent Image to make a flat wall.

You could use Silent Image to make a flat wall that, from a particular angle, looked like it continued onward. (Essentially a painting on the wall) An observer moving or carefully looking at it could realize that it is 'painted' onto a flat wall.

You could NOT use Silent Image to make an image of the actual empty hallway.
Why not? As long as they don't enter the stretch, they only get a save if they study an empty hallway.

[nedz]

One I did:

Corridor with a 90o angle
Illusion of a mirror at 45o across the corner
Opponent standing around the corner
PC charges
Hilarity

[OzymandiasX]

heh. I meant a flat image of a 3d empty hallway, as was asked about in the original post. :) I'll clarify.

[ericgrau]

So can you make a 2D image of 3D? Can you make a cold warmth, a dark bright? I doubt it.

You could do it Wile-E-Coyote style and make a nice photo-like image of the corridor. Close up or at an angle it will be obvious, but far away people might not notice.

[SapereAude1490]

... but what if you very cleverly created a concave lens-like shape in such a way that when faced straight on it would look like the corridor, and when viewed from an angle it would appear as it should from that angle (due to the stretching or whatever of the concave shape). Also, since you can move the image, if it's just one person looking at you, could you try to change the illusion to fit whatever they'd be looking at from whatever angle they're at?

Is this possible?

[Thiyr]

Illusory Wall and such

Not...quite sure what you were trying to say there. Illusory wall and silent image are both figments. But both should be unable to make an existing wall look any different based on the way glamers vs figments work. My point was more that such spells could easily replace glamers in similar situations by being close to but not on top of such objects, to the point that there is no functional difference for most individuals, to point out my issues with the differences between figments and glamers in the first place.

and @ericgrau, you can make a 2d image of 3d easily. Can you reach in and treat it as though it were physically 3d? no, but it is rather easy to make an image that looks 3d when viewed at the correct angle.

Even beyond that, with the magic of technology, flat, 2d images can be used to do 3d images even better. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jd3-eiid-Uw) If you could pull something like that off (which I'd say would take a good amount of skill as well as readied actions, further requiring some means of breaking the action economy, either by adding actions or reducing action cost of concentration). That said, I'd put it in the realm of plausibility for it to fool a single individual even beyond the "painting of an empty hall in midair" method which works when viewed from the proper angle but doesn't allow for perspectives beyond the originally intended one.

[Bakeru]

Not...quite sure what you were trying to say there.Basically, I was saying that Silent Image (as well as the entire [something] Image line, with few exceptions) is a bad example, because for most of them, the caster needs to concentrate the entire time or the spell goes poof, and none of them move with him. That hardly breaks anything.

Also, where is the line drawn? Using a Figment to create cover-giving rocks in front of you is obviously ok. Creating rocks around you is a grey area, because it makes you appear as a rock, which would be Glamour, but then, you could simply build hollow rocks.
At last, making your skin look like rock would be Glamour, but creating the Illusion of a thin layer of Rock on your skin would be Figment.

So, summarised, Figment is described as "Creating Sensory Impressions", while Glamour is "Changing Sensory Impressions". I think they should simply be merged, they really aren't that different. I mean, Illusion has five different sub-schools already, the only other school with that many sub-schools is Conjuration, and that's just because they somehow got "Healing".

[Nettlekid]

Here's an illusion which appears to be 3D from many angles (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YufBGuxi6k). Well, it is 3D, but 3D the opposite way, so it's still impressive. If you just created the illusion with the right lighting, it should work at different angles...right? If you had something like that, you could create the illusion of depth even as someone walked across the hallway instead of staring directly down it.

[ericgrau]

Is this possible?

A concave mirror can project an object to a different location, creating something like a "hologram" reflection that appears to be in front of the mirror instead of behind the mirror like a regular reflection. It's limited by the width of the mirror so if you walk too far to the side the image gets cut off.

How this could be applied to hallway concealment or silent image, I don't see. For one thing, you can see through the image. You could have it at a 45 degree angle perhaps so he sees a side passage instead of the hallway you are in. But having that hallway appear closer wouldn't have any advantage compared to having a flat 45 degree mirror without making the hallway seem closer.

[OzymandiasX]

Here's an illusion which appears to be 3D from many angles (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YufBGuxi6k). Well, it is 3D, but 3D the opposite way, so it's still impressive. If you just created the illusion with the right lighting, it should work at different angles...right? If you had something like that, you could create the illusion of depth even as someone walked across the hallway instead of staring directly down it.
These kinds of real-world illusions can 'inverse' an image.. but they can't make it deeper than it really is. (The face only appears to stick out as far as it actually goes back)

[dascarletm]

Well if your character is as talented as this guy:http://www.myinkblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/julianbeever-20.jpg

Then....

[NotScaryBats]

Nothing says the silent image must be 2D. What if you made a big sphere that everyone could hide in, that was patterned just like the hallway from all the different angles? It just says it is "as visualized by you" so if you could visualize the hallway, you could probably project that image onto your sphere of hiding guys.

Kind of like 007's car from the one after Goldeneye, IIRC

[Nettlekid]

These kinds of real-world illusions can 'inverse' an image.. but they can't make it deeper than it really is. (The face only appears to stick out as far as it actually goes back)

What I meant to illustrate by that is that it's an illusion which persists despite being looked at from different angles. If you were to create a 3D Silent Image in a similar way, of a hall but not including yourself, and project it in front of you, also using one of the many tricks to make something appear farther away than it is (kind of like this, I guess? Or maybe the opposite of this. (http://assets.gearlive.com/blogimages/paris-grass-sphere.jpg)) then from all angles you pass by at (assuming they're just walking down a perpendicular hall, like in the video) then it could look like there was a deep hall from all angles when in fact it's a static image of a shallower hall, hiding you.

How does it work? MAGIC. WE'RE TALKING ABOUT MAGIC, GUYS.

[OzymandiasX]

What I meant to illustrate by that is that it's an illusion which persists despite being looked at from different angles. If you were to create a 3D Silent Image in a similar way, of a hall but not including yourself, and project it in front of you, also using one of the many tricks to make something appear farther away than it is (kind of like this, I guess? Or maybe the opposite of this. (http://assets.gearlive.com/blogimages/paris-grass-sphere.jpg)) then from all angles you pass by at (assuming they're just walking down a perpendicular hall, like in the video) then it could look like there was a deep hall from all angles when in fact it's a static image of a shallower hall, hiding you.

How does it work? MAGIC. WE'RE TALKING ABOUT MAGIC, GUYS.
Those are two different types of RL illusion. You can't combine them and keep both effects IRL.

And as for magic in the game, each spell is limited by the rules, and you need a different (and higher level) spell to duplicate the effect in the OP.

[ericgrau]

What I meant to illustrate by that is that it's an illusion which persists despite being looked at from different angles. If you were to create a 3D Silent Image in a similar way, of a hall but not including yourself, and project it in front of you, also using one of the many tricks to make something appear farther away than it is (kind of like this, I guess? Or maybe the opposite of this. (http://assets.gearlive.com/blogimages/paris-grass-sphere.jpg)) then from all angles you pass by at (assuming they're just walking down a perpendicular hall, like in the video) then it could look like there was a deep hall from all angles when in fact it's a static image of a shallower hall, hiding you.

How does it work? MAGIC. WE'RE TALKING ABOUT MAGIC, GUYS.

Oh a trick I learned from theater is if you angle the walls, floor and ceiling a little inward they look deeper than they are. Then shorten the texture to match. The character would have to have some knowledge of theater or optical illusions though, so a bard.

It would still need to be a few feet deep and you'd have to transition it back to the regular corridor somehow. Then what you do is hide underneath the gently upward slanted floor that appears like it's flat. Or behind the slanted wall.

[Silvanoshei]

Can you make multiple objects, like, 5 armed guards with silent image?

[SapereAude1490]

That you can do. A guard takes up a 5x5 ft. square and an average human is 6 ft. tall, so you can create 4 guards per one cube.


Effect: Visual figment that cannot extend beyond four 10-ft. cubes + one 10-ft. cube/level (S)

This spell creates the visual illusion of an object, creature, or force, as visualized by you.

d20srd Silent Image description.

The guards have to be connected somehow (a phalanx for example). So a lvl 1 Wizard can create 5 10ft. cubes - so 20 guards (a small army :smallbiggrin:)

The only problem is that they can't move.

[Bakeru]

That you can do. A guard takes up a 5x5 ft. square and an average human is 6 ft. tall, so you can create 4 guards per one cube.Only during combat. Out of combat, people (and even NPCs and guards) can stand much closer.

The guards have to be connected somehow (a phalanx for example). So a lvl 1 Wizard can create 5 10ft. cubes - so 20 guards (a small army :smallbiggrin:)

The only problem is that they can't move."You can move the image within the limits of the size of the effect."
Simply make sure they don't fill the entire area (by making less guards and crowding them closer together), and you can have them move around within your five designated 10ft cubes.