Heaven vs hell in D&D terms

[Immabozo]

So which is stronger? Why? What are the "one-ups" one side has over the other? Which are stronger, balors or solars? I understand this is not exactly an answerable question, but I am thinking about a setting for a campaign that the PCs are the champions of one side or the other and fighting to tip the scales, trying to figure out how that idea would work.

If this campaign ever sees players, its a long ways off, but I know my current players want to play the "silly/ridiculous" campaign next, using unusual solutions and guerrilla tactics to take down overwhelming odds. Seems like a plausible setting.

[hamishspence]

Solars have a higher CR than balors or pit fiends. And it's well earned- with them being able to use wish more often than a pit fiend can, and their having cleric spellcasting on top of their spell-like abilities.

[Immabozo]

Solars have a higher CR than balors or pit fiends. And it's well earned- with them being able to use wish more often than a pit fiend can, and their having cleric spellcasting on top of their spell-like abilities.

So if there was an all out war between the two sides, the Solars would tip the scales toward heaven? Or do the armies of the hells outnumber the armies of heaven? I assume in that equation, the the armies of heaven are stronger and thus the two are about equal?

[Dusk Eclipse]

I think I saw somewhere that the only reason that Fiends (in general) haven't defeated heaven is that they have little thing called the Blood War to keep them occupied.

[NeoPhoenix0]

the armies of the abyss out number hell and heaven put together but they don't get along. hell and the abyss also don't get along. the deciding factor is Evil's inability to fight together. hell and the abyss are usually to busy fighting each other to even start a war with heaven.

[Spiryt]

Well, Baatezu will tell you that black is really white, the moon is just the sun at night, for example.

[Sith_Happens]

As far as I've noticed, celestials have higher CRs on average than devils, which have higher CRs on average than demons. What complicates things is there being infinite demons compared to finite of the other two.

Of course, you're asking about Hell, not the Abyss, so in that matchup I'd definitely bet on Heaven. If Hell and the Abyss could somehow put aside their differences and team up, however, then they'd have at least a decent shot.

[Immabozo]

So an evil campaign to get the hells to work together and then getting the Abyss, or many layers of it, to work together and then lead them against heave, would be a challenging campaign, with lots of roleplay and leaving the rollplay to the armies of hell and the abyss, for the most part.

[Kaeso]

I'd say both are equally strong. Why? Because, unlike in modern Monotheism, in DnD hell isn't something you want to avoid. In DnD hell isn't a place of punishment and heavy a place of bliss and salvation, both the evil and the good are rewarded for their deeds in heaven and hell. Sure, the average mugger might end up living a miserable life in the lower plains of hell as a low level demon mook, but a powerful arch-lich that spread chaos and destruction would probably end up as a balor or pit fiend, being given a small portion of hell to rule by his evil deity, or command over a small army of demons.

In a way, all DnD characters go to "heaven", they just go to the variety of heaven that's most suited for them.

[MukkTB]

#1 An infinite number of weak monsters is not a good counter to a high level spellcaster. Its a target rich environment and an invitation to dust off their aoe spells.

#2 Getting the Abyss to work together is actually impossible. An infinite number of demons with an infinite number of factions and therefore an infinite number of demon leaders would require an infinite number of 1 on 1 conversations. Broad sweeping gestures would be required. Best you could ever do would be to settle for lots of them allied with you.

#3 I'd be inclined to think the gods would be the main event. Anyone know how they stack up against each other and high CR demons/sp;ars?

[Scow2]

I'd say both are equally strong. Why? Because, unlike in modern Monotheism, in DnD hell isn't something you want to avoid. In DnD hell isn't a place of punishment and heavy a place of bliss and salvation, both the evil and the good are rewarded for their deeds in heaven and hell. Sure, the average mugger might end up living a miserable life in the lower plains of hell as a low level demon mook, but a powerful arch-lich that spread chaos and destruction would probably end up as a balor or pit fiend, being given a small portion of hell to rule by his evil deity, or command over a small army of demons.

In a way, all DnD characters go to "heaven", they just go to the variety of heaven that's most suited for them.

Actually, the only race that gets an actual reward in the lower planes are Gnolls, because it's like an eternal party for them. Evil is cheap, dirty, easy, and a fast-track to power, but it has a terrible retirement plan. You might get a somewhat more comfortable position in the lower planes if you have the right connections or were impressive enough in advancing Evil in the material world, but it's still not a paradise (Unless you're a gnoll, or of similar mindset to a gnoll.)

For most evil people in the lower planes (As spelled out in the BoVD), their souls become a grub when they die, and it's used as currency until someone decides to eat it or use it to make a bauble, destroying it utterly. Of course, no Devil/demon is willing to tell you that you won't be rewarded. But then again, what's the most common "reward" given by treachery and malice?

[BWR]

Are we talking about Planescape or another setting with similar cosmology or settings with very different cosmology?

If we are talking about Planescape, I can't recall any specific information and a very quick scan of my (complete) collection failed to give any definite answers.
Considering the way the Great Ring is organized and that there are definite planes, even if some are finite and some are infinite, it seems very likely that powerwise the planes are pretty equal. This fits in nicely with the Unity of Rings principle that things tend to be circular: if plane A is more powerful than plane B, plane B is more powerful than C, and plane C more powerful than A.

The closest thing I could find to an answer is Hellbound: the Blood War, which states that the celestials dislike it, but consider the Blood War a pseudo-blessing because it keeps the fiends busy with eachother. If the celestials were truly more powerful, they would likely have eradicated the fiends long ago, or at the very least be engaged in a winning war against them. Since neither of these are the case, and considering the nature of the Outer Planes, it seems very likely that they are as a whole equally matched. Sure, there are individuals who are more powerful than others, but that's just natural.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Heaven is significantly stronger that Hell. That is because Heaven includes Celestia, Arvandor, Valhalla, Olympus and many other higher planes; the forces of Good are strongly allied across the Law/Chaos axis and the Angels work for all powers of good, not just the Lawful or just the Chaotic ones and embody good in all its forms (Love). Archons are another race of good outsiders that serve Lawful Good (Justice), Guardinals are the good outsiders that represent Neutral Good (Peace) and Eladrins are the good outsiders that embody Chaotic Good (Freedom).

Hell OTOH is only the embodiment of Tyranny. Asmodeus is by himself one of the strongest Greater Powers, true, but his devils and the Powers aligned with them only match the Archon faction of Heaven.

The Abyss is another beast altogether. First, it has given birth to several races of fiends, all individually more numerous than most single-alignment factions. Secondly, it has given birth to lots and lots of Demon Gods and an infinite number of demon lords and ladies. But due to its nature, its creations are eternally divided and will remain so forever. If the likes of Graz'zt, Demogorgon, Orcus, Pale Night and the Queen of Chaos have all failed to unify the forces of the Abyss over millions of years of effort, probably nobody ever will.




Now, as to why the Celestials don't start a war against the fiends? They can't really beat the Abyss - nobody can cause it's infinite. They could attack Hell but what would be the point? Upsetting the balance of the universe by making it so Lawful Evil souls and Lawful Evil gods didn't have anywhere to go is a monumentally bad idea; such a mutliversal act of chaos and injustice would bloat the Abyss to such an extent it would overwhelm everything.

[TypoNinja]

Oh god, I just realized, evil could be compared to a cynical view of Capitalism.

Does any body else see it?

They preserve the illusion that anybody can make it to the top, in a closed club of a few with the vast majority of the power, to aid in recruitment, while in reality its usually the little guy who is screwed first. You will spend all your time and effort advancing the goals of your superiors, and probably get little or nothing of long term value out of it.

I wonder if I can match other alignments to other political or economic theories?

[Immabozo]

#3 I'd be inclined to think the gods would be the main event. Anyone know how they stack up against each other and high CR demons/sp;ars?

that is much like my current campaign. Or, much like what they are going to be building up to. How far it goes is up to them.


Are we talking about Planescape or another setting with similar cosmology or settings with very different cosmology?

If we are talking about Planescape, I can't recall any specific information and a very quick scan of my (complete) collection failed to give any definite answers.
Considering the way the Great Ring is organized and that there are definite planes, even if some are finite and some are infinite, it seems very likely that powerwise the planes are pretty equal. This fits in nicely with the Unity of Rings principle that things tend to be circular: if plane A is more powerful than plane B, plane B is more powerful than C, and plane C more powerful than A.

The closest thing I could find to an answer is Hellbound: the Blood War, which states that the celestials dislike it, but consider the Blood War a pseudo-blessing because it keeps the fiends busy with eachother. If the celestials were truly more powerful, they would likely have eradicated the fiends long ago, or at the very least be engaged in a winning war against them. Since neither of these are the case, and considering the nature of the Outer Planes, it seems very likely that they are as a whole equally matched. Sure, there are individuals who are more powerful than others, but that's just natural.

I have no setting in mind, I have never read much about the official settings.

So your point about "the ring" is that A may be stronger than B,, B stronger than C, but C has/is A's krytonite?

[Xefas]

In theory, the forces of Celestia could probably defeat Baator in a straight scrap. But fighting a Devil isn't ever a straight scrap.

The most likely outcome, I think, would be that Hell plans for defeat, but not to go easily. In fact, they'll use every dirty trick in the book, to the point where the Heavenly Host would have to debase their own morality in order to win. To beat the Devils, they'd have to think like Devils. To win the war, they'd have to act like Devils. As they say, War is Hell.

There's precedent for this, of course. Asmodeus and company started out as Lawful Good Archons/Angels. They couldn't meaningfully fight the Abyss without debasing themselves. Only after sinking to the level of the Demons were they capable of matching them (and with a much smaller force, at that). This is why the armies of Heaven delegated the Blood War to them in the first place. They knew that their own options consisted of 'failure' or 'corruption'.

So, Celestia defeats Baator. Most of the participating Archons are corrupt to the point of being nigh-indistinguishable from the people they just racially cleansed out of existence. Poetic. But, what's more - the Abyss now has no counter. They need to be contained, as they always have been, or the Multiverse is done.

I guess it's a good thing we have all these Devil-alikes standing around after the war. And... all this free space in Hell to set up operations. And, before you know it, Hell is back up and running, the new Devils put the Demons back in their place. And the Wheel keeps spinning just the same as it always did. Every necessary evil in its place.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

A good/utopian version of capitalism would fit Heaven very well though;

"You got the freedom to buy and sell anything you desire, with the price of a commodity being kept at the appropriate level since the buyers are wise enough to know what price benefits them, the sellers are wise enough to know what price will get them the most buyers and thus profit and both are wise enough to cooperate so that the goals of the one will coincide with the goals of the other."


Basically, all things -politics, economy, religion- can be good or evil depending on how you apply them. They only ever meaningfully differ in the Law-Chaos axis.

[Eldan]

If we're talking about Planescape, no side can ever win, since mortals will continue believing that all sides exist.

That said, Solars don't fight for any of the upper planes. They fight for the gods, and they are not exemplars, they are Aasimon. Important distinction.

And you'd never get the upper planes to work together against any single lower planar threat, the books make that quite clear.

Because while the eladrins and archons don't want to fight each other, they also don't want each other to win.

The thing is this. Currently, law and chaos are more or less balanced. But if the hells or the abyss were to win, one side of the axis would be severely weakened, and that would also weaken the good parts of that axis. Also, if hell wins, you can be very sure that they would continue cleaning up the rest of the chaotic side of the ring. And the Modrons would probably jump in too. Same for the Abyss, though you'd probably never get a substantial amount of Slaad to join.

[DeltaEmil]

There is no fiendish counterpart to the angels, strangely enough. Balors are tanar'ri, which are demons, who are chaotic evil fiends. The chaotic good counterparts of the demons are the eladrins. Devils are lawful evil, and their lawful good counterparts are the archons. Daemons/Yugoloths are the neutral evil fiends, who have their counterparts in the neutral good guardian animals/ guardinals.

Just like angels are the favored servants and messengers of the good deities, evil deities ought to have some evil servants who can be lawful, chaotic or neutral, as long as they're evil.

[Eldan]

Agreed. Though personally, I'd just make angels alignment-generic. The term means "messenger", there's no reason they shouldn't serve all gods.

[BWR]

*snip*

Just to clarify, this is in some non-Planescape setting with very similar cosmology, as are most of the other answers that don't specifically reference a particular setting.

In most of these cases I would argue that the forces of Good are pretty evenly matched with the forces of Evil, because if one side were truly stronger than the other, why hasn't that side won yet?
That's really the point of much of D&D as a whole. Evil exists and no matter how much good is performed, how epic the good guys, there will always be more bad guys who are a serious threat.

[Frozen_Feet]

Well, Baatezu will tell you that black is really white, the moon is just the sun at night, for example.

*aplauses*

[Eldan]

Then this gets difficult, as a lot of fundamental things were never, to my knowledge, fully designed outside of Planescape.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

The most likely outcome, I think, would be that Hell plans for defeat, but not to go easily. In fact, they'll use every dirty trick in the book, to the point where the Heavenly Host would have to debase their own morality in order to win. To beat the Devils, they'd have to think like Devils. To win the war, they'd have to act like Devils. As they say, War is Hell.

Why is it that dirty fighting is always brought up in fantasy discussions of war between good and evil? Things don't work like that;


1) One of the Seven Cardinal Virtues is Wisdom - literally. You think the embodiment of common sense and insight in the multiverse is going to fail to recognize that slippery slope?

2) Fighting "dirty" never helps against equal professional opponents. This has been proven in both individual fights and major wars; shooting civilians never won any wars since it always stiffens enemy morale and wastes your ammunition. Trying for crotch hits in a real fight is a bad idea because it's a longshot and a palm-strike to the solar plexus or a knife hand to the throat are far faster and effective ways to disable and/or kill.

3) Honor is a lawful trait, not a good trait. A good individual has no problem whatsoever hiding in the dark and ambushing opponents and does not become any less good for doing so. Ditto for tricking opponents and using all kinds of deception against them.
The enemy you shoot in the back before he can shoot you is an enemy that won't kill more civilians, corrupt more souls and destroy more of your friends while you'd have been thinking of "honorable" ways to dispatch him. You are defending Truth and Justice no less when you sneak in and kill the bad guy in his sleep than by challenging him in open combat; since the just punishment for his crime is death and he receives death, you are just. Since giving him an open challenge would allow him to sprout his lies for unwitting observers to see and become a false martyr if he dies, burying his lies in obscurity along with him is Truth's best retort.

[herculesftw]

it's mentioned in the fiendish codex book 2 that if hell failed to stop the abyss, the demons would win and everything would be destroyed. Technically, the only thing that is keeping the universe from being destroyed, is hell

[herculesftw]

it does however also state, that the lord of hell, when he wins the blood war, would plan a war on heaven. So if you wanted to start a campaign with hell vs heaven, the ideal way would be that somehow hell won against the abyss

[Immabozo]

it does however also state, that the lord of hell, when he wins the blood war, would plan a war on heaven. So if you wanted to start a campaign with hell vs heaven, the ideal way would be that somehow hell won against the abyss

But then the question is begged, how do you stop infinity? Assuming an epic spell that destroys the entirety of the plane is impossible, because epic spell casting is the dairy farm where all the cheese comes from.

Also, what is Planescape?

[Deaxsa]

Of course, no Devil/demon is willing to tell you that you won't be rewarded.

says the guy with the paladin/white color sig.

[Cirrylius]

1) One of the Seven Cardinal Virtues is Wisdom - literally. You think the embodiment of common sense and insight in the multiverse is going to fail to recognize that slippery slope?

In that case, it could be argued that the fact that the war isn't being waged is proof that it's either unwinnable, or unwinnable without deliberately or accidentally utilizing that slippery slope.



2) Fighting "dirty" never helps against equal professional opponents.

Not LITERALLY fighting dirty. I don't think anyone's arguing that angels would lose the war because they're not willing to go for the kick inna fork should it present itself.



3) Honor is a lawful trait, not a good trait.
There's more to fighting dirty than assassinations and duplicity. Collateral damage. Soul-murder. Torture. Third party involvement. Suicide actions. Innocent hostages. Distasteful allies. War is messy; any acts that would require a "for the greater good" justification would cause Upper Planar command to argue themselves to a standstill, and fiends are smart enough to exploit those scenarios (or create them).

[Immabozo]

There's more to fighting dirty than assassinations and duplicity. Collateral damage. Soul-murder. Torture. Third party involvement. Suicide actions. Innocent hostages. Distasteful allies. War is messy; any acts that would require a "for the greater good" justification would cause Upper Planar command to argue themselves to a standstill, and fiends are smart enough to exploit those scenarios (or create them).

all true, however I could see there being a point then the "for the greater good" argument would win. I could see it winning when the "or we will lose everything to the forces of evil" option starts to become a reality.

[lunar2]

yeah, when your best troops are capable of simply wishing the problem away on a daily basis, all the slippery slope stuff goes out the window.

devil has dominated hostages between him and you? first off, you can just teleport past them, or you can wish them to a safe place, or whatever.

collateral damage? there are very few things a 20th level cleric with wish as a 1/day SLA can't fix as soon as the fight's over.

suicide action? not actually a slippery slope thing. dying for the cause, also known as martyrdom, is generally seen as the greatest thing you could possibly do.

playing evil against evil? they've already been doing that for millenia, so that's definitely ok.

anyway, the sheer power the angels alone wield simply bypasses most things the devils alone can dream up. and then, since this is specifically heaven vs. hell, the archons get to throw down, too. which means you've got trumpet archons (aka the baddest playable mofo's in the monster manual) in the fight, as well.

@abyss being infinite. it actually isn't. none of the planes are truly infinite, they are simply unimaginably large. the proof is actually in the books. for example, in (iirc) mm3, there is this sheep thing that was native to the abyss, but was completely driven off that plain by the tanarii. now, if the abyss is infinite, then there should still be an infinite number of those sheep things hanging around in the abyss, but instead there are 0, which proves the abyss can't be truly infinite.

[AuraTwilight]

@abyss being infinite. it actually isn't. none of the planes are truly infinite, they are simply unimaginably large. the proof is actually in the books. for example, in (iirc) mm3, there is this sheep thing that was native to the abyss, but was completely driven off that plain by the tanarii. now, if the abyss is infinite, then there should still be an infinite number of those sheep things hanging around in the abyss, but instead there are 0, which proves the abyss can't be truly infinite.

Or an infinite amount of Tanarii drove off a race with finite numbers.

The planes are infinite. Literally every piece of text that covers them says this. It doesn't make sense, but it doesn't have to, because magic.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Actually, you can have one infinity that is greater than another. If a plane is infinite but for every square mile you got 300 Tanar'ri and only 10 Obyrinths, then guess which type gets extinct really fast if the two start fighting?

[Matticussama]

all true, however I could see there being a point then the "for the greater good" argument would win. I could see it winning when the "or we will lose everything to the forces of evil" option starts to become a reality.

Except that "for the greater good" doesn't keep it from being an Evil act. Torture is still evil, regardless of the information that it gives you and whether or not it was necessary to win a battle. The same with the other examples given. If the angels took too many of those "for the greater good" acts then they would eventually fall. Then they would essentially become just as corrupt as the devils that they replaced, all the while defending their actions for "the greater good."

[zlefin]

another significant consideration is home field advantage.
I don't know what the exact planar traits are for the outer planes; but I know the inner ones have a number of significant ones; like impeded opposition spells and stronger correct ones in the elemental and energy planes.

I'm sure there are some similar effects in the outer planes; though perhaps not quite as strong, which would give sides a moderate but significant penalty for invasions; and they'd provide boosts to the defenders; in addition to the inherent advantages of knowing the local terrain better.

Also, planar travel isn't that easy; while there's lots of high level casters, and you can make permanent gates, there's way more lower level troops; and it's much harder to effectively transport those; also teleportation is more common than planar travel ability; which makes it easier to reinforce locally. It's reminiscent of the difficulties with amphibious invasions.

[Scow2]

Actually, you can have one infinity that is greater than another. If a plane is infinite but for every square mile you got 300 Tanar'ri and only 10 Obyrinths, then guess which type gets extinct really fast if the two start fighting?

Furthermore, while the Abyss is infinite, it is not homogeneous, nor are each individual race of infinite numbers. For example - Yeenoghu and her Fiendish Gnolls, (Along with The King and his ghouls) only inhabit a few layers of the abyss that they've managed to carve for themselves, and spread from there. But not every layer of the abyss is gnoll-infested.

Same deal with the Sheep - They were evicted from the layers they used to inhabit. The ever-shifting nature of the abyss may also mean that whether any given species is infinite or finite can change without warning.

[Psyren]

says the guy with the paladin/white color sig.

I'd say any paladin that doesn't know temptation is a thing won't be a paladin for long.

The general fantasy trope is that individual angels are stronger but the fiends are far more numerous. This is true even back to Tolkien - Elves are much better in a fight, but Orcs are far more numerous.

[Immabozo]

Except that "for the greater good" doesn't keep it from being an Evil act. Torture is still evil, regardless of the information that it gives you and whether or not it was necessary to win a battle. The same with the other examples given. If the angels took too many of those "for the greater good" acts then they would eventually fall. Then they would essentially become just as corrupt as the devils that they replaced, all the while defending their actions for "the greater good."

Well, with spells like "zone of truth" available, torture is ONLY an evil act, since the only use for it, is to torture for the sake of torture, yes, that is very evil.

But, say, sacrificing the 500 commoners inhabiting the near-by town to also get rid of the 1 fiendish general and his quarter million troops, for the greater good, will easily be justified as a good action, for the greater good, if that army is about to attack and destroy thousands of inhabitants of heaven and millions of the inhabitants of the prime material plane, with resurrections and welcoming those sacrificed into heaven, etc, I could see the argument swinging in the favor of green lighting the divine wrath wiping the location off the map.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

There is no morally ambiguous action that the angels have to do to win. None whatsoever;

Interrogation? You surround the fiend to be interrogated with enough angels with at-will detect thoughts or zones of truth and then tell him not to think about pink elephants. No pain, no torture, no harm done; only using the power of truth on him.

Fiends taking innocent hostages? Slay the fiend. Then ressurrect the hostages - or make them petitioners in the upper planes, making them into new angels to fight against the fiends themselves.

Soul-murder; the fiends are already doing it. Not fighting them because they threaten to do it is absurd. Besides, the fiends have access almost exclusively to evil souls (specifically, lawful evil souls for devils) so you're not losing anyone that didn't damn themselves anyway.

Distasteful allies; there aren't any. An angel would be perfectly willing to ally herself with a demon to fight a devil. First, if the demon wants her help, it must do no or at least limited evil for the duration. Secondly, good opportunity to attempt to turn the demon from its corrupt existence; it will almost certainly fail but that is no excuse for not trying. Third, if the angel is so weak in her faith to the powers of good for mere association with evil to corrupt her, she'd be a failure as an angel to begin with. Fourth, there isn't anything the angel in question has to worry about with some preparation; she can't be permanently slain outside her home plane and if she gets an Astral Projection going (either cast by her or by a Solar friend), the fiends can't even capture her because she can dismiss it as a standard action and trying to put her in an AMF to negate her powers would also negate the projection and return her to her home plane.







The reason angels don't start some Holy Crusade against fiends is because a) it would damage the order of the universe if they won, b) evil has to actually exist and be a valid choice for mortal free will to matter else their being good is meaningless, c) the angels are sitting high up their mountain, being awesome, while the fiends are living a truly horrible existence in the Pit - horrible even for themselves. Both angels and fiends being immortal and of more than human intellect, the fiends will eventually realize it (sometime before the heat death of the universe) and repent - but until then they suffer horribly as a just reward for their wickedness... so ending their existence would be counterproductive on all levels, and d) said Holy Crusade has a chance (small or otherwise) of the angels actually losing; when your duty is to be a shining light for the rest of Creation you can't sacrifice that and let all the universe without guidance by dying out in a war due to some strategic or tactical mistake or sheer bad luck.

[ericp65]

Well, Baatezu will tell you that black is really white, the moon is just the sun at night, for example.

And when you walk in golden halls, you get to keep the gold that falls ;)

[ericp65]

Oh god, I just realized, evil could be compared to a cynical view of Capitalism.

Does any body else see it?

They preserve the illusion that anybody can make it to the top, in a closed club of a few with the vast majority of the power, to aid in recruitment, while in reality its usually the little guy who is screwed first. You will spend all your time and effort advancing the goals of your superiors, and probably get little or nothing of long term value out of it.

I wonder if I can match other alignments to other political or economic theories?

Now you're talking about real life! Would that more people understood the agenda.

[ericp65]

Then this gets difficult, as a lot of fundamental things were never, to my knowledge, fully designed outside of Planescape.

Perhaps not fully designed, but there is the D&D cosmology as described in the DMG.

[Steward]

it does however also state, that the lord of hell, when he wins the blood war, would plan a war on heaven. So if you wanted to start a campaign with hell vs heaven, the ideal way would be that somehow hell won against the abyss


You're pretty much right, but you should flip the order. The book argues that Asmodeus's ultimate plan could be to form a temporary truce between Baator and the Abyss. They will then overrun the Heavens, destroy that (probably with demonic troops taking the brunt of the casualties while Asmodeus holds his super-elite devils back in his fortress, Malsheem, which is located in the 9th layer of Hell). After the Heavens fall, Asmodeus will betray the demons and destroy them, and take over the world.

Basically, Hell's main problem is that current battle is between Law and Chaos instead of Good vs. Evil. He wants to change things around by fighting the Good vs. Evil battle first, and then (after Good has been destroyed), fight the Law vs. Chaos battle. After Chaos is gone, the entire universe will be Lawful Evil, and he wins. Forever.

It's a brilliant plan if you don't think about it too much.

[Jack_Simth]

As far as I've noticed, celestials have higher CRs on average than devils, which have higher CRs on average than demons. What complicates things is there being infinite demons compared to finite of the other two.
Perhaps not fully designed, but there is the D&D cosmology as described in the DMG.Yep.

Angels, devils, and demons, right in the DMG, all show up on the random encounter tables for various planes. So on those planes for which the encounter tables apply, we've got clear definition that there is a nonzero average density of them. Thing is, some of these planes? They're defined as infinite. So... what's the total population when you have... oh... one per one hundred square miles, say ... when you have infinity square miles?

So... yeah. There are infinity angels, infinity devils, and infinity demons, quite clearly derived from Core D&D.

Although it may be possible that one infinity is larger than the others; specific infinity magnitude is not defined.



The planes are infinite. Literally every piece of text that covers them says this. It doesn't make sense, but it doesn't have to, because magic.
Funny thing... if you do the math for it, an infinite plane really does work in terms of physics (as long as it's not infinitely deep in one direction only... but a plane that is infinitely deep in all three directions works just fine). An infinite line of mass produces gravity that is linear with distance away from the line (and any point on the line is equally balanced on either side, so doesn't shift). An infinite plane of mass produces flat gravity - no matter where you are, or how far you are from the plane of mass, you get the exact same gravitational attraction towards it. If you have infinite mass in all directions (ala the plane of earth, water, or air) then it all cancels out, and you get no gravity at all (although you *might* be inside the mother of all galaxy-eating black holes, you're not going to feel it, as all that gravitational attraction exactly balances out).

[Immabozo]

There is no morally ambiguous action that the angels have to do to win. None whatsoever;

Interrogation? You surround the fiend to be interrogated with enough angels with at-will detect thoughts or zones of truth and then tell him not to think about pink elephants. No pain, no torture, no harm done; only using the power of truth on him.

Fiends taking innocent hostages? Slay the fiend. Then ressurrect the hostages - or make them petitioners in the upper planes, making them into new angels to fight against the fiends themselves.

Soul-murder; the fiends are already doing it. Not fighting them because they threaten to do it is absurd. Besides, the fiends have access almost exclusively to evil souls (specifically, lawful evil souls for devils) so you're not losing anyone that didn't damn themselves anyway.

Distasteful allies; there aren't any. An angel would be perfectly willing to ally herself with a demon to fight a devil. First, if the demon wants her help, it must do no or at least limited evil for the duration. Secondly, good opportunity to attempt to turn the demon from its corrupt existence; it will almost certainly fail but that is no excuse for not trying. Third, if the angel is so weak in her faith to the powers of good for mere association with evil to corrupt her, she'd be a failure as an angel to begin with. Fourth, there isn't anything the angel in question has to worry about with some preparation; she can't be permanently slain outside her home plane and if she gets an Astral Projection going (either cast by her or by a Solar friend), the fiends can't even capture her because she can dismiss it as a standard action and trying to put her in an AMF to negate her powers would also negate the projection and return her to her home plane.

The reason angels don't start some Holy Crusade against fiends is because a) it would damage the order of the universe if they won, b) evil has to actually exist and be a valid choice for mortal free will to matter else their being good is meaningless, c) the angels are sitting high up their mountain, being awesome, while the fiends are living a truly horrible existence in the Pit - horrible even for themselves. Both angels and fiends being immortal and of more than human intellect, the fiends will eventually realize it (sometime before the heat death of the universe) and repent - but until then they suffer horribly as a just reward for their wickedness... so ending their existence would be counterproductive on all levels, and d) said Holy Crusade has a chance (small or otherwise) of the angels actually losing; when your duty is to be a shining light for the rest of Creation you can't sacrifice that and let all the universe without guidance by dying out in a war due to some strategic or tactical mistake or sheer bad luck.

I think this is the single greatest answer that has thus far been posed in this thread. Very through answer, well thought out

[Immabozo]

You're pretty much right, but you should flip the order. The book argues that Asmodeus's ultimate plan could be to form a temporary truce between Baator and the Abyss. They will then overrun the Heavens, destroy that (probably with demonic troops taking the brunt of the casualties while Asmodeus holds his super-elite devils back in his fortress, Malsheem, which is located in the 9th layer of Hell). After the Heavens fall, Asmodeus will betray the demons and destroy them, and take over the world.

Basically, Hell's main problem is that current battle is between Law and Chaos instead of Good vs. Evil. He wants to change things around by fighting the Good vs. Evil battle first, and then (after Good has been destroyed), fight the Law vs. Chaos battle. After Chaos is gone, the entire universe will be Lawful Evil, and he wins. Forever.

It's a brilliant plan if you don't think about it too much.

However this gives me a great campaign to run my players through!

[Cirrylius]

More stuff.


yeah, when your best troops are capable of simply wishing the problem away on a daily basis, all the slippery slope stuff goes out the window.
collateral damage? there are very few things a 20th level cleric with wish as a 1/day SLA can't fix as soon as the fight's over.

How many Solars and Planetars do you think there are? They're generals, close aides to gods, or individually dedicated to wiping out a particular evil in the multiverse. Worse, as adjutants to Powers, Solars are outside the chain of command; if said Power has other ideas on how to utilize them, their strategic value is comprimised. "No, you CAN'T use Thereon the Mighty. Yondalla is holding her Solar in reserve in case the fighting spills over onto the Green Fields. Use your own damn troops."
In any case, they're outnumbered by Pit Fiends, who can be used to counter a Wish by going "NO.", and who are more likely to be Summoned to the battle, and therefore won't be permanent losses even if they can't take down a Solar with superior numbers.



suicide action? not actually a slippery slope thing. dying for the cause, also known as martyrdom, is generally seen as the greatest thing you could possibly do.

No, sorry, I'm talking about uninformed suicide action. Say there's a confirmed mole that can't be tracked down in a particular unit, or outside enemy surveillance is inexplicably good, so the commander is ordered to send the unit in without foreknowledge of the fact that they're going into an ambush, or that intelligence shows they'll be overwhelmed by superior numbers, or that the force will be utilizing a one-way portal into enemy territory, or they're Petitioners unwittingly being sent off-plane. Obviously these are clunky examples; my point is soldiers being sent to die without their knowledge, especially if it's for an uncertain gain or an outright misdirection.



playing evil against evil? they've already been doing that for millenia, so that's definitely ok.

I'm not just talking about "oh, gosh, it would be awful if these reports of troop movements SOMEHOW GOT TO GRAZ'ZT". What do you do if you have to grant amnesty and a future non-interference pact to Apomps in exchange for help? Do you arm an unsavory mercenary company known for killing first and asking questions late for a vital campaign if they're going to use your weapons on other targets as soon as their contract is up? Do you point out a portal to a vulnerable Devil position if the Demons'll get to rape and burn their way through an Outland settlement to get there?



Interrogation? You surround the fiend to be interrogated with enough angels with at-will detect thoughts or zones of truth and then tell him not to think about pink elephants.
Not everybody has Cleric levels, multiple casters, or time to spare. Sooner or later there'll be lower-end Celestials confronted with a high Will save. Are his fingers or teeth really that important, considering he'll probably be executed anyway?



devil has dominated hostages between him and you? first off, you can just teleport past them, or you can wish them to a safe place, or whatever.


This'd be a conflict on the scale of the Blood War. I'm not just talking individuals, I'm talking whole cities. Not necessarily in the Upper Planes, either; your average citizen of Celestia might be willing to die for the greater good, but how do you suppose they'd feel elsewhere? Is it really worth pulling our troops back from certain victory just to save the lives of everybody in Automata? I mean, it's not like they're on our side; they can't even be troubled to make laws accounting for individual liberties, right?



Soul-murder; the fiends are already doing it.

No, that's hostage-taking again. I'm talking about destroying fiendish souls. Say Heaven found (made?)an epic magic that would allow them to rain ten thousand thousand short-lived Spheres of Anhillation down on the Larvae fields of Baator. Or say they developed a weapon enchantment that dissipated the soul of any fiend it killed.


Besides, the fiends have access almost exclusively to evil souls (specifically, lawful evil souls for devils) so you're not losing anyone that didn't damn themselves anyway.

See, THAT. That right there. That's a justification. For humans, it'd be a damn good one, since soul-death doesn't leave a body, it's painless, and it's happening to villains. Easy to shrug off. But in a universe where the eternal, immutable soul demonstratably exists, and by the system's objective morality system, would a Celestial do that? Even at the cost of the war?

Archons and Angels aren't just good. They're Good. They're Lawful. Every Celestial has a code of conduct comparable to that of a Paladin, with the added bonus that they don't actually lose anything more than a night's sleep if they violate it. While the phrase For The Greater Good rolls easily off our tongues, how long do you suppose it would be before a creature of Good and of Law starts to suffer a crisis of conscience? They are pathalogically moral. They don't typically have the mental vocablulary to apply words like "better" or "worse" to evils. They don't have the sophisticated filters that allow mortals to say "this is a bad thing I'm doing, but it's justified", they say "THIS IS A BAD THING I'M DOING". The rank-and-file can get away with " I was told to do it", but how long would the high command be able to steel themselves against the slow grind that victory would require? The idea that morality can be sacrificed to the benefit of others is as offensive and distasteful to them as suggesting that an isolated family could beef up its numbers via incest; it's technically true, and if the need is great enough they'll do it, but it'll leave deep scars. If Celestia did win a conflict that way, probably the entire high command would disappear, suicide, or Fall at the war's conclusion.
War is nasty, war is brutal, war laughs at comprimises and good intentions.


...but anyway.

In a white-room scenario, with isolated battlefields and minimal outside contact, I think probably Heaven wins, since they won't have any of these factors holding them back to any appreciable degree. I do think that Hell would make it a hard, hard fight, because the essense of strategy is doing what your opponent doesn't expect, or making your opponent do what you want, and fiends have much more practice at that sort of thing. But on the Great Wheel, I don't think Celestia could win and stay Celestia. They wouldn't have the stomach for a long, ugly conflict, and would either sue for peace or ensure the conflict didn't start in the first place.

[Immabozo]

More stuff.


How many Solars and Planetars do you think there are? They're generals, close aides to gods, or individually dedicated to wiping out a particular evil in the multiverse. Worse, as adjutants to Powers, Solars are outside the chain of command; if said Power has other ideas on how to utilize them, their strategic value is comprimised. "No, you CAN'T use Thereon the Mighty. Yondalla is holding her Solar in reserve in case the fighting spills over onto the Green Fields. Use your own damn troops."
In any case, they're outnumbered by Pit Fiends, who can be used to counter a Wish by going "NO.", and who are more likely to be Summoned to the battle, and therefore won't be permanent losses even if they can't take down a Solar with superior numbers.


No, sorry, I'm talking about uninformed suicide action. Say there's a confirmed mole that can't be tracked down in a particular unit, or outside enemy surveillance is inexplicably good, so the commander is ordered to send the unit in without foreknowledge of the fact that they're going into an ambush, or that intelligence shows they'll be overwhelmed by superior numbers, or that the force will be utilizing a one-way portal into enemy territory, or they're Petitioners unwittingly being sent off-plane. Obviously these are clunky examples; my point is soldiers being sent to die without their knowledge, especially if it's for an uncertain gain or an outright misdirection.


I'm not just talking about "oh, gosh, it would be awful if these reports of troop movements SOMEHOW GOT TO GRAZ'ZT". What do you do if you have to grant amnesty and a future non-interference pact to Apomps in exchange for help? Do you arm an unsavory mercenary company known for killing first and asking questions late for a vital campaign if they're going to use your weapons on other targets as soon as their contract is up? Do you point out a portal to a vulnerable Devil position if the Demons'll get to rape and burn their way through an Outland settlement to get there?


Not everybody has Cleric levels, multiple casters, or time to spare. Sooner or later there'll be lower-end Celestials confronted with a high Will save. Are his fingers or teeth really that important, considering he'll probably be executed anyway?



This'd be a conflict on the scale of the Blood War. I'm not just talking individuals, I'm talking whole cities. Not necessarily in the Upper Planes, either; your average citizen of Celestia might be willing to die for the greater good, but how do you suppose they'd feel elsewhere? Is it really worth pulling our troops back from certain victory just to save the lives of everybody in Automata? I mean, it's not like they're on our side; they can't even be troubled to make laws accounting for individual liberties, right?


No, that's hostage-taking again. I'm talking about destroying fiendish souls. Say Heaven found (made?)an epic magic that would allow them to rain ten thousand thousand short-lived Spheres of Anhillation down on the Larvae fields of Baator. Or say they developed a weapon enchantment that dissipated the soul of any fiend it killed.

See, THAT. That right there. That's a justification. For humans, it'd be a damn good one, since soul-death doesn't leave a body, it's painless, and it's happening to villains. Easy to shrug off. But in a universe where the eternal, immutable soul demonstratably exists, and by the system's objective morality system, would a Celestial do that? Even at the cost of the war?

Archons and Angels aren't just good. They're Good. They're Lawful. Every Celestial has a code of conduct comparable to that of a Paladin, with the added bonus that they don't actually lose anything more than a night's sleep if they violate it. While the phrase For The Greater Good rolls easily off our tongues, how long do you suppose it would be before a creature of Good and of Law starts to suffer a crisis of conscience? They are pathalogically moral. They don't typically have the mental vocablulary to apply words like "better" or "worse" to evils. They don't have the sophisticated filters that allow mortals to say "this is a bad thing I'm doing, but it's justified", they say "THIS IS A BAD THING I'M DOING". The rank-and-file can get away with " I was told to do it", but how long would the high command be able to steel themselves against the slow grind that victory would require? The idea that morality can be sacrificed to the benefit of others is as offensive and distasteful to them as suggesting that an isolated family could beef up its numbers via incest; it's technically true, and if the need is great enough they'll do it, but it'll leave deep scars. If Celestia did win a conflict that way, probably the entire high command would disappear, suicide, or Fall at the war's conclusion.
War is nasty, war is brutal, war laughs at comprimises and good intentions.


...but anyway.

In a white-room scenario, with isolated battlefields and minimal outside contact, I think probably Heaven wins, since they won't have any of these factors holding them back to any appreciable degree. I do think that Hell would make it a hard, hard fight, because the essense of strategy is doing what your opponent doesn't expect, or making your opponent do what you want, and fiends have much more practice at that sort of thing. But on the Great Wheel, I don't think Celestia could win and stay Celestia. They wouldn't have the stomach for a long, ugly conflict, and would either sue for peace or ensure the conflict didn't start in the first place.

wow, this shows a very deep knowledge of philosophy and the workings of D&D mythology. I commend you my friend, thank you for such an in depth answer

[herculesftw]

[QUOTE=Immabozo;15118266]But then the question is begged, how do you stop infinity? Assuming an epic spell that destroys the entirety of the plane is impossible, because epic spell casting is the dairy farm where all the cheese comes from.

I'm sure that could be a separate thread altogether. Still, if you're interested in reading it in further detail, it's on page 16. of the fiendish codex 2, 'Nature of the Blood War' If anyone could pull it off, it would probably be The Lord of Hell, Asmodeus.

[Eldan]

@abyss being infinite. it actually isn't. none of the planes are truly infinite, they are simply unimaginably large. the proof is actually in the books. for example, in (iirc) mm3, there is this sheep thing that was native to the abyss, but was completely driven off that plain by the tanarii. now, if the abyss is infinite, then there should still be an infinite number of those sheep things hanging around in the abyss, but instead there are 0, which proves the abyss can't be truly infinite.

All the outer planes are infinite. It's said throughout the books again and again. And that's not how infinity works.

And there's more factors to consider. The Baernoloth would not allow anyone to end the blood war before they want it to end. So you'd have to throw in them as well, and all bets are off.

Second. Heaven would not fight Hell first. If they fought hell first, they'd strengthen the Abyss, which is their greatest opposition. More than a few celestials support one or the other side of the blood war to stop the other side of the law-chaos axis to win. Throwing in with the Abyss against Hell makes no sense for Heaven. After all, Law is just as important a part of their alignment as Good, and destroying Hell weakens Law on a multiversal scale. They can't do that.

[herculesftw]

You're pretty much right, but you should flip the order. The book argues that Asmodeus's ultimate plan could be to form a temporary truce between Baator and the Abyss. They will then overrun the Heavens, destroy that (probably with demonic troops taking the brunt of the casualties while Asmodeus holds his super-elite devils back in his fortress, Malsheem, which is located in the 9th layer of Hell). After the Heavens fall, Asmodeus will betray the demons and destroy them, and take over the world.

Basically, Hell's main problem is that current battle is between Law and Chaos instead of Good vs. Evil. He wants to change things around by fighting the Good vs. Evil battle first, and then (after Good has been destroyed), fight the Law vs. Chaos battle. After Chaos is gone, the entire universe will be Lawful Evil, and he wins. Forever.

It's a brilliant plan if you don't think about it too much.

OH YEAH, I forgot about that section.

[Ashtagon]

Also, what is Planescape?

This post makes me cry.

Product list: http://tsrinfo.net/archive/ps/ps.htm

[Parra]

If I recall correctly, in the Planescape setting, that early in the History of the multiverse when everyone was out exploring everything the Denizens of Heaven found each other and, mostly, got on well and were able to talk out most differences of opinions.

Then, when they discovered the various Lower Planes (with the Blood War already in full swing) and all the evils contained, they became fairly unified in the goal of wiping out all the Fiends in the Lower Planes.

So off they went with their Celestial Armies and kicked some righteous ass and chewed lots of bubblegum. For a long time they met with great success and it seemed, to them at least, that victory was inevitable.
Unfortunately all of this Goodie-two-shoes nonsense pissed of the various Blood War factions, who were having a jolly good time killing each other. So they did what they had never done before or since, they called a Truce so they could fight the Celestial Armies. In the space for a few years they had undone all that the Celestial Armies had achieved in the previous few centuries and threatened the Heavens themselves.

Noticing the writing on the wall the United Heavens withdrew and plotted, successfully, to re-ignite the Blood War. Since the Celestials weren't bothering them anymore and the Demons & Devils went back to fighting each other.

Since then the Blood War has been a stalemate between the Fiends with the Celestials (mostly) only interfering when it looks like that stalemate is going to be upset.

[JBento]

For an added variable, consider what demons are (spoilered for a rather lenghty diatribe).

We're considering that a demon is a demon and, look, there's another demon, because demons come in packs, and they're clearly groups of individuals, because, well, they really are.

Aren't they?

A common theory is that the Abyss isn't just a place, but a thing with at least SOME sentience. It is the part of the remnant of the primordial chaos (with the other part being Limbo), the part that felt what was being done to it, that felt its own chaos-stuff being ordered. And the part that hated it. It, in fact, hated it so much that it gained a measure of sentience. And it imbues that sentience into tiny parts of itself and sends them out to reclaim what once was itself, and people call them demons.

And now the Abyss lies there. And seethes. And hates. And yearns. And what it yearns for is nihilism, the return to the past, to once again be whole and swirling and disordered and ALL. And it can do it. And it WILL do it.

It will not deal, because the only thing it wants no-one who wants to keep existing can give it to it. It will not surrender, because what it seeks to win is itself. It will not relent, because it's troops are infinite, and it doesn't care.
It's not Good vs. Evil, or Law vs. Chaos. It's the Abyss vs. everything else.

It already killed a pantheon that pissed it off.

The Abyss doesn't have the homefield advantage. It IS the homefield advantage.

And, someday, it will be the only homefield there is.

[BWR]

Also, what is Planescape?
didn't see this question before now


Planescape was createdas the ultimate crossover setting for the various D&D campaign settings, basing the Multiverse off Greyhawk's cosmology and throwing every other D&D setting in, even if it had to push and shove a bit to make it work. Some fans of other settings (particularly Dragonlance, as I remember many heated discussions with them about how they were wrong :smalltongue:) were less than pleased with this. Others, like FR fans and authors, tried to shove their view of how things worked on to PS, like inventing a name for the Lord of the Ninth, making it so that everyone and his mother wants Mystra's silverfire (I'm looking at your ****ty work, Greenwood), etc.

Most importantly, Planescape was about a sense of wonder, of exploration, of discovery of the self and the infinite places and things to experience. Belief was core to the way things work and powerful enough belief can change reality. Not just action based on beliefs, but the power of belief itself.
That's why the Factions were so important. Proving you were right wasn't just a matter of politics, it was a matter of fundemental philosophy being shown to be right or wrong, the very core of your being (at least that's what some Factions will have you believe).

Planescape wasn't just another dungeon crawl or wilderness adventure, it was an exploration of the limits of imagination.

In case you couldn't tell, I'm rather fond of the setting.

[CombatOwl]

I think I saw somewhere that the only reason that Fiends (in general) haven't defeated heaven is that they have little thing called the Blood War to keep them occupied.

Exactly. Incidentally, a good adventure for a good party might be to have them venture to one of the fiendish planes in order to stop a rumored end to the blood war.

[BWR]

There is something similar in the PS boxed set "Hellbound: the Blood War".

In any case, consdering the nature and number of the players involved in the BW, this would be Epic/divine-level adventuring. At least it should be. The Dark Eight are not exactly push-overs and you aren't doing anything seriously to the BW without involving them.

[Scow2]

It's not Good vs. Evil, or Law vs. Chaos. It's the Abyss vs. everything else.

It already killed a pantheon that pissed it off.

The Abyss doesn't have the homefield advantage. It IS the homefield advantage.

And, someday, it will be the only homefield there is.[/SPOILER]

Actually... it's not. It may be infinite, but as it is divided within itself, it likewise provides infinite resistance against itself. Its inability to win the Blood War is proof of its impotence.

If anything, it's steadily losing ground - but reduced infinity is still infinity. All it means is that Law and Order are spreading and strengthening, imposing their will on the world, as it is wont to do. While entropy always increases, Order is an infinite outside force that shifts it away and brings structure to the multiverse. Of course, both forces are ultimately equally matched, with Chaos reclaiming ground as Order spreads.

[ericp65]

didn't see this question before now


Planescape was createdas the ultimate crossover setting for the various D&D campaign settings, basing the Multiverse off Greyhawk's cosmology and throwing every other D&D setting in, even if it had to push and shove a bit to make it work. Some fans of other settings (particularly Dragonlance, as I remember many heated discussions with them about how they were wrong :smalltongue:) were less than pleased with this. Others, like FR fans and authors, tried to shove their view of how things worked on to PS, like inventing a name for the Lord of the Ninth, making it so that everyone and his mother wants Mystra's silverfire (I'm looking at your ****ty work, Greenwood), etc.

Most importantly, Planescape was about a sense of wonder, of exploration, of discovery of the self and the infinite places and things to experience. Belief was core to the way things work and powerful enough belief can change reality. Not just action based on beliefs, but the power of belief itself.
That's why the Factions were so important. Proving you were right wasn't just a matter of politics, it was a matter of fundemental philosophy being shown to be right or wrong, the very core of your being (at least that's what some Factions will have you believe).

Planescape wasn't just another dungeon crawl or wilderness adventure, it was an exploration of the limits of imagination.

In case you couldn't tell, I'm rather fond of the setting.

I found the Planescape materials to be the most exciting and intriguing published work since Dragonlance (which, despite occasional silliness, was a masterwork overall, IMHO). I have yet to see anything published that impresses me as much, or more. We really need a full 3.5e rendition (if it doesn't already exist)!

[Immabozo]

I'm sure that could be a separate thread altogether. Still, if you're interested in reading it in further detail, it's on page 16. of the fiendish codex 2, 'Nature of the Blood War' If anyone could pull it off, it would probably be The Lord of Hell, Asmodeus.

Thank you, I will be sure to read up on this.


Planescape was createdas the ultimate crossover setting for the various D&D campaign settings, basing the Multiverse off Greyhawk's cosmology and throwing every other D&D setting in, even if it had to push and shove a bit to make it work. Some fans of other settings (particularly Dragonlance, as I remember many heated discussions with them about how they were wrong :smalltongue:) were less than pleased with this. Others, like FR fans and authors, tried to shove their view of how things worked on to PS, like inventing a name for the Lord of the Ninth, making it so that everyone and his mother wants Mystra's silverfire (I'm looking at your ****ty work, Greenwood), etc.

Most importantly, Planescape was about a sense of wonder, of exploration, of discovery of the self and the infinite places and things to experience. Belief was core to the way things work and powerful enough belief can change reality. Not just action based on beliefs, but the power of belief itself.
That's why the Factions were so important. Proving you were right wasn't just a matter of politics, it was a matter of fundemental philosophy being shown to be right or wrong, the very core of your being (at least that's what some Factions will have you believe).

Planescape wasn't just another dungeon crawl or wilderness adventure, it was an exploration of the limits of imagination.

In case you couldn't tell, I'm rather fond of the setting.

I like the sound of this setting!

[Eldan]

Planescape is the source of a lot of things that later showed up in more generic planar material, such as the city of Sigil, planar portals and a lot of details on all the outer planes and planar races.

[BWR]

Things that aren't Planescape: Asmodeus as Lord of the Ninth.
That was introduced in "Warriors of Heaven" and ruined the mystery, and basically made it less menacing.

[BWR]

We really need a full 3.5e rendition (if it doesn't already exist)!


It's a bit dated, but the official PS 3.x site is here (www.planewalker.com/).

[Tragak]

How about this for a Blood War theory:

Asmodeus realizes that the Chaotic Demons cannot be united under a single force of commanders unless they feel that is absolutely necessary for their survival, so Asmodeus's armies are trying to make it that necessary. Asmodeus cannot conquer the Celestial Realms without a super-arch-demon that is capable of keeping the Abyss under control for as long as would be necessary, so he's weeding out the demon commanders that aren't capable.

He could also feel that uniting them against himself would make them Lawful the way him fighting against them made him "Competent" (as Evils call themselves), and they would turn into Devils anyway.

OK, that was two theories. Sue me :smallbiggrin:

[Immabozo]

I think to make the campaign work, it would require an epic devil, perhaps the Paragon Devil, the first one made has finally come to reunite the forces of evil.

Or, pull a page from The Matrix and the extensive search of the material plane for "The One" which will unite the forces of evil to conquer hell and then lead the forces of the Hells to victory over The Abyss and then to conquering the entirety of every plane, leaving Evil to reign and rule the multiverse.

Actually, thats a great premise for the horror campaign, The Hells have won and "The One" and his "Guardians" find their power and rise up to overthrow evil.

[thethird]

If the forces of good and the forces of evil fight wouldn't there be countless dead? How many creatures will die just for the selfishness of those good aligned creatures that keep fighting? Wouldn't it be in favor of the greater good to just lose swiftly so more souls can be spared and less dead are necessary?

[Arcanist]

So an evil campaign to get the hells to work together and then getting the Abyss, or many layers of it, to work together and then lead them against heave, would be a challenging campaign, with lots of roleplay and leaving the rollplay to the armies of hell and the abyss, for the most part.

I'm just going to throw this out there, but anything you can possibly do for this would feel railroady.

Trying to get the abyss and the 9 hells to settle their differences would be like trying to mix black and black to get white.

[Immabozo]

I'm just going to throw this out there, but anything you can possibly do for this would feel railroady.

Trying to get the abyss and the 9 hells to settle their differences would be like trying to mix black and black to get white.

huh, thats true

[Steward]

huh, thats true

The best way to do this is to work out what the archfiends in the Abyss want (Dagon, Demogorgon, Frazububbles (??)) and makes deals with them directly. The Abyss itself is roiling chaos, but the demon princes themselves can at least theoretically be communicated with. The pact doesn't need to last forever -- only until Heaven falls.

[Cirrylius]

Trying to get the abyss and the 9 hells to settle their differences would be like trying to mix black and black to get white.
Look to pop culture to discover ways to get total opposites to get along.

"Okay, now, everything on this side of the tape is my side of the room. Everything on that side of the tape is a valueless festering wasteland."

Hijinks ensue.:smallbiggrin:

[Immabozo]

The best way to do this is to work out what the archfiends in the Abyss want (Dagon, Demogorgon, Frazububbles (??)) and makes deals with them directly. The Abyss itself is roiling chaos, but the demon princes themselves can at least theoretically be communicated with. The pact doesn't need to last forever -- only until Heaven falls.

Very true... I must continue musings on this later, when I've had more sleep

[ericp65]

It's a bit dated, but the official PS 3.x site is here (www.planewalker.com/).

Thanks! I had a link to 3.0 Planescape, but it's changed over to something else. Bookmarked :smallsmile:

[Lord Haart]

Actually, you can have one infinity that is greater than another. If a plane is infinite but for every square mile you got 300 Tanar'ri and only 10 Obyrinths, then guess which type gets extinct really fast if the two start fighting?Neither one does. If chances of an Oberyth becoming the one-demon army, going all Doomguy on Tanar'ri and holding out for, say, a year are unfathomably minuscule, then chances of him doing it for ten/hundred/thousand years, millenia, ten to power of 666 years are merely ten-to-power-of-666 times smaller (experience system nonwithstanding). Which means that out of infinite number of Obyrinths there will still be an infinity of such survivers (not to mention ones that survived in a more plausible ways, such as switching sides, running away etc.). Now, one infinity can be greater than another, but not numerically (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleph_number).


If you have infinite mass in all directions (ala the plane of earth, water, or air) then it all cancels out, and you get no gravity at all (although you *might* be inside the mother of all galaxy-eating black holes, you're not going to feel it, as all that gravitational attraction exactly balances out).As far as i can tell, that's not true. Or, rather, that would be true if said infinite mass in all directions was also distributed at constant density, which is not necessary at all. As soon as you let the density vary, you suddenly discover that there's a lump of matter that's a tiny bit denser than average space and that it's gravity isn't quite cancelled. Depending on how homogenous density might be, it might be a teeny-tiny barely detectable anomaly signaling that some planeswalker didn't bother to be incorporeal or, if we imagine a universe that possibly has infinite mass in all directions but consists mostly of vacuum with some inconsequental chunks of rock and some chunks of energy so dense it mindrapes physicists, it might be a reason you're still sitting on that couch. On said planes density supposedly doesn't vary that much.

[herculesftw]

while I know it's blasphemy to mention 4th edition, I was reading the fiendish codex 1(demons) and noticed a lot of references of the demonicon. It's an updated version of the Tome of Zyx, which has the secrets of the abyss in it basically. It was updated by Iggwiv? or something like that, a powerful spell caster who imprisoned Grazzt(demon lord) at one point. So I found the 4e book demonicon and gave it a read. Skipped all the playing aspects and just read the lore. The first pages are history which were pretty interesting. Apparently there's a truce now and the blood war is at a standstill. It talks a lot about the shard of evil, which apparently asmodeus took a fraction of to make his Ruby Rod.

[Jack_Simth]

As far as i can tell, that's not true. Or, rather, that would be true if said infinite mass in all directions was also distributed at constant density, which is not necessary at all. As soon as you let the density vary, you suddenly discover that there's a lump of matter that's a tiny bit denser than average space and that it's gravity isn't quite cancelled. Depending on how homogenous density might be, it might be a teeny-tiny barely detectable anomaly signaling that some planeswalker didn't bother to be incorporeal or, if we imagine a universe that possibly has infinite mass in all directions but consists mostly of vacuum with some inconsequental chunks of rock and some chunks of energy so dense it mindrapes physicists, it might be a reason you're still sitting on that couch. On said planes density supposedly doesn't vary that much.
So I simplified to make the math easier. If you're talking variations of 'normal' expected amounts (e.g., 'this one mile cube of the Plane of Earth is made of Iron, rather than stone, or 'there's a one cubic mile of air in this section of the plane of earth'), and assume that those abberations are effectively random, then it mostly works out on average with some minor fluctuations. Granted, these fluctuations then require that the material of the plane have some amount of crush resistance, but it doesn't generally need to be all that much.

[BWR]

Iggwilv and Graz'zt are old news. Like, Gygax' personal campaign news. I'm unfamiliar with this 'Tome of Zix'.
The rest of that stuff, like the truce in the BW and whatnot are most likely 4E inventions.

[Azoth]

While not completely relevant, I have run a similar campaign for my group. The gods/greater powers had all gone missing. Clerics and paladins still got their spells, but the gods no longer had any real influence on the world and any form of commune spells fizzled out to nothing. The armies of Heaven, Hell, and the Abyss chose the Prime Material Plane as a battle ground to try and gain troops for their armies and wipe out the believers of other Patrons. Of course our dear friend Asmodious was behind it all. He hoped to have the armies of the gods kill eachother off to consequently destroy the gods once and for all paving the way for him to rise to power by swallowing their planes into his own and materializing on the Prime Material to rid it of problems as if its true savior. This was of course to try and gain enough faith and ascend to Divine Ranks and finally heal fully from his wounds so he could go after the Greater Dieties and reign Supreme over all planes.

Rather fun campaign with lots of combat and roleplay. Hard as Hell to pull off though.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

The reason angels don't start some Holy Crusade against fiends is because a) it would damage the order of the universe if they won, b) evil has to actually exist and be a valid choice for mortal free will to matter else their being good is meaningless, c) the angels are sitting high up their mountain, being awesome, while the fiends are living a truly horrible existence in the Pit - horrible even for themselves. Both angels and fiends being immortal and of more than human intellect, the fiends will eventually realize it (sometime before the heat death of the universe) and repent - but until then they suffer horribly as a just reward for their wickedness... so ending their existence would be counterproductive on all levels, and d) said Holy Crusade has a chance (small or otherwise) of the angels actually losing; when your duty is to be a shining light for the rest of Creation you can't sacrifice that and let all the universe without guidance by dying out in a war due to some strategic or tactical mistake or sheer bad luck.

This makes sense from the perspective of several real-world religions, but not from the perspective of D&D religion or morality. As Frank and K so eloquently stated:

Godliness isn't Goodliness

Whatever religion you personally have, the religion in D&D revolves around a set of gods both Good and Evil of equal strength and importance. Most modern day religions have however many gods they worship be of sufficient goodness that they are at least worthy of respect – so it can be hard to remember that in D&D the gods as a whole are precisely zero sum on any issue. Being "divine" doesn't make you Good in D&D, it just makes you more. If you're Good it makes you more Good, but if you're Evil it makes you more Evil. Clerics detect strongly of whatever alignment they have, but there's nothing Good about priests as a whole. Turning your back on the gods isn't a bad thing in D&D, it's a perfectly valid and neutral choice. If Ur Priests are to have any alignment restriction at all, it should be the same as Druids – stealing from the gods is a profoundly neutral act, not Good and not Evil.

There is no Salvation or Redemption in D&D

All of the major religions of our world that utilize the concepts of Ultimate Good and Ultimate Evil use the concept of Redemption (that people have a state of innocence that they can lose and perhaps regain through atonement) or Salvation (that people have a state of inherent unworthiness that they can overcome). D&D, despite having a spell called atonement, actually has neither of those concepts. The atonement spell actually dedicates (or rededicates) a character to any alignment, Good or Evil, Law or Chaos. Baby kobolds are not born into original sin and baby elves are not born in a state of grace, D&D doesn't even have those concepts. Creatures with an alignment subtype (most Fiends, for example) are born into that alignment and are only going to stray from it if subjected to powerful magic or arguments. Everyone else is born neutral.

In D&D, creatures do not "fall" into Evil. Being Evil is a valid choice that is fully supported by half the gods just as Good is. Those who follow the tenets of Evil throughout their lives are judged by Evil Gods when they die, and can gain rewards at least as enticing as those offered to those who follow the path of Good (who, after all, are judged by Good Gods after they die). So when sahuagin run around on land snatching children to use as slaves or sacrifices to Baatorians, they aren't putting their soul in danger. They are actually keeping their soul safe. Once you step down the path of villainy, you get a better deal in the afterlife by being more evil.

The only people who get screwed in the D&D afterlife are traitors and failures. A traitor gets a bad deal in the afterlife because whichever side of the fence they ended up on is going to remember their deeds on the other side of the fence. A failure gets a bad deal because they end up judged by gods who wanted them to succeed. As such, it is really hard to get people to change alignment in D&D. Unless you can otherwise assure that someone will die as a failure to their alignment, there's absolutely no incentive you could possibly give them that would entice them to betray it.

So let's flip your statement around a bit. First, A and B: "The reason fiends don't agree to a truce in the Blood War and start some Unholy Crusade against the Upper Planes is that (A) it would damage the order of the universe if they won, and (B) good has to actually exist and be a valid choice for mortal free will to matter, else their being evil is meaningless," These two points are incorrect as far as the celestials and fiends are concerned: the celestials and fiends want their way to be the only way, it's the rest of the universe that's stopping them, and celestials and fiends have no need to preserve mortal free will due to some divine mandate--and in fact in Planescape, where belief shapes reality, it's actually the mortals' free will to believe in whatever they want that shapes the outsiders.

Next up: "(C) the fiends are chilling in their Orwellian cities, being awesome, while the angels are living a truly pointless existence in their mountains and fields - horribly boring, isn't it? Both celestials and fiends being immortal and of more than human intellect, the celestials will eventually realize (sometime before the heat death of the universe) that Good is never going to get you anywhere and collectively decide to take a walk on the vile side--but until then, they'll suffer through the tedium as a logical consequence of their inflexibility, so ending their existence would be counterproductive on all levels, and (D) said Unholy Crusade has a chance (however small) of the fiends actually losing; when your raison d'être is to advance your own goals at the expense of all who would stand in your way, there's no point in sacrificing yourself like a chump so other people can advance their goals due to some strategic or tactical mistake or sheer bad luck." These points are biased towards the celestial point of view, and so only accurate from their perspective; the fiends' version of C and D is just as valid for them, and in fact the lawful and chaotic viewpoints are justified in their own versions of "the other side are wrong and they'll come around to our view eventually if we wait" and "we'll lose more than we'd gain if we tried to go wipe out the other side."

[Cirrylius]

I agree with this^, broadly, but...

"Those who follow the tenets of Evil throughout their lives are judged by Evil Gods when they die, and can gain rewards at least as enticing as those offered to those who follow the path of Good.
Once you step down the path of villainy, you get a better deal in the afterlife by being more evil. The only people who get screwed in the D&D afterlife are traitors and failures."

...isn't strictly accurate. If you fervently worship a God, you'll land in their realm upon death, and (by and large) those Petitioners get along okay, as they typically have at least some value to their Power. On the Upper Planes, if you're good, you're... you're good:smalltongue:. All you have to do is be a nice guy, and you get an afterlife largely without strife, discomfort, or peril. If you're evil, though, and not affiliated with a particular Power... oh cruel fate, to be thusly boned. If you read the descriptions of how Petitioners are typically found in, say, Baator, it takes a real stretch of the imagination to consider being chained to an underwater pit in a stinking bog a reward, or being reborn as a giant maggot and herded into a giant recombinant psycho-thresher as an afterlife to look forward to.

It's not just failure that's gets generic souls punished on the Lower Planes; it's anything but outstanding success. Only the very most evilest souls get to start as an actual fiend, and this best-case scenario still has you serving as nearly valueless cannon fodder or chew toy for your superiors. The only thing exemplary living service to the cause of Evil gets you is a miniscule chance to spend eons savagely clawing your way up the ladder of power and privelage. While it makes sense, at least, that devoted evil service to a God gets you a citizenship... well, look at it this way. If you were going to be rewarded in the afterlife just for being a d**k, as opposed to being a d***ish worshiper, the evil Gods would tell you so, to encourage their point of view in the Multiverse at large. But most of those souls clearly aren't being rewarded, which means that those souls are being lied to in life, or aren't being told what really awaits by good Gods, or are just so nihilistic/short-sighted/impulsive/dismissive that they don't care. And if evil Gods considered the souls' treatment a reward, why would they lie, or withhold the truth, unless they knew it wasn't a reward?

The only logical conclusion is that 1) evil performed not in service to a deity is actually a Bad Thing, or 2) the eternal reward of the wicked is being ruined by the fact that the wicked are all d***s, in which case an evil Power who wanted the wicked to actually be rewarded would have to tell the wicked... not to be such d***s.

[Ashtagon]

I... But most of those souls clearly aren't being rewarded, which means that those souls are being lied to in life, or aren't being told what really awaits by good Gods, or are just so nihilistic/short-sighted/impulsive/dismissive that they don't care. And if evil Gods considered the souls' treatment a reward, why would they lie, or withhold the truth, unless they knew it wasn't a reward?

The only logical conclusion is that 1) evil performed not in service to a deity is actually a Bad Thing, or 2) the eternal reward of the wicked is being ruined by the fact that the wicked are all d***s, in which case an evil Power who wanted the wicked to actually be rewarded would have to tell the wicked... not to be such d***s.

Alternate conclusion: Evil gods really are evil. Most (nearly all) evil souls are NOT being rewarded. They tell their worshippers they will be rewarded because they are liars.

The evil afterlife is a reward for evil. That is, it rewards the elder evils. I'm sure they all find it very funny.

[Cirrylius]

Alternate conclusion: Evil gods really are evil. Most (nearly all) evil souls are NOT being rewarded. They tell their worshippers they will be rewarded because they are liars.

...and if that's the case, then evil Gods aren't upholding an objective (im)moral standard; they're just being d***s for their own gain (presumably). Which means that if being true to your alignment deserves reward, the evil Gods are circumventing cosmic law, and evil souls are de facto being punished to provide the actual reward to creatures more powerful and evil than themselves.

Yup. Boned coming and going.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

If you fervently worship a God, you'll land in their realm upon death, and (by and large) those Petitioners get along okay, as they typically have at least some value to their Power. On the Upper Planes, if you're good, you're... you're good:smalltongue:. All you have to do is be a nice guy, and you get an afterlife largely without strife, discomfort, or peril.

Whether that's actually a desirable outcome is debatable. While you end up better than a lemure or a dretch on the Upper Planes, being a lantern archon who floats around the Silver Sea being bored navel gazing contemplating the universe for eons--when not fighting Pokebattles or playing courier for mortal summoners, that is--isn't necessarily better, nor are some of the other "good" afterlives, like Arborea (where you live an ascetic life for a few centuries until you turn into a celestial animal) or Elysium (where you remember all about your mortal life but are stuck there and are consumed with nostalgia and ennui) or Lathander's plane in FR (where you become basically a blade of grass in the celestial fields to bask in the sunshine of His light forever).

For an average mildly-good commoner, a peaceful, routine afterlife is probably a nice enough reward and not too different from mortal life, but then for the average mildly-evil brigand an afterlife where you're looked down upon, spat on, and abused for a while until you can move up in the world isn't all that different either, it's just mortal life plus physical anguish minus a police force to be evaded. Worse, for many mildly-evil people being sent to the good afterlife would still suck; these are people who decided to forgo a nice, steady, peaceful job in favor of jerkish violence, so being stuck in a nice, steady, peaceful place forever with no chance of getting back to the "fun stuff" in life would be intolerable.

Basically, the afterlife pretty much sucks all around if you're wishy-washy about your religion and/or your morals and ethics, and once you get to the point where you're sufficiently aligned to get a cushy afterlife you'd lose it all by defecting to another alignment.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Come on! Being Good and/or Lawful does not equal boring. It equals awesome. Just think of it this way;

1) You get as many boyfriends/girlfriends as you want because you WILL find people that are understanding and loving. And since they are also going to be good, reasonable, and sharing and not going to be jealous or stupid, you CAN share relationships without problems.

2) Since you no longer need to work to ensure your survival or happiness, you can devote everything to your personal perfection either physically or philosophically. And you are going to be in a society that shares your qualities and desires. You could play as many games as you ever wanted, or do philosophical debates without the nasty shouting matches, or even athletics and fights (hey, you're immortal and momentary pain is not evil) and so on and so forth.

3) You are going to be challenged if you want to be. There are countless good tasks you can take up that are meaningful and, unlike in most evil tasks, your failure does not mean your utter destruction by your superiors.

[TuggyNE]

do philosophical debates without the nasty shouting matches

Do want! :smallbiggrin:

[BWR]

But if my opponent just can't understand my point, the only way to englighten him is to use my club!

[Eldan]

Then you probably belong on Ysgard. It's still mildly good, but they understand the occasional clubbing. And as Viking Barbarians, they also put a lot of stock in poetry, debate and song.

[BWR]

I was referring to the byline of the Factions: "philosphers with clubs", not specifically my debating technique. :smallwink:

[Immabozo]

1) You get as many boyfriends/girlfriends as you want because you WILL find people that are understanding and loving. And since they are also going to be good, reasonable, and sharing and not going to be jealous or stupid, you CAN share relationships without problems.

So you're saying swingers are lawful good?

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Come on! Being Good and/or Lawful does not equal boring. It equals awesome.

Just as being Evil and/or Chaotic does not equal suffering. Just think of it this way;

1) You get as many hookups as you want because you WILL find people that are easy and great in bed. And since they are also going to be selfish and mercurial, they're going to be doing the same thing reasonable, so you CAN hook up with them time and again with plenty of others in between without any hard feelings.

2) Since you no longer need to work to ensure your survival--the fiends might torture you at first, but they're not going to waste a perfectly good petitioner--you can devote everything to your ladder-climbing until you advance into a higher form of fiend, at which point you have willing (or unwilling but stuck with it) minions to do everything for you while you focus on your physical and mental perfection. And you are going to be in a society that shares your qualities and desires. You could play as many games of Death Chess as you ever wanted, or do philosophical debates with the nasty shouting matches (they're the best kind!), or even athletics and fights and so on and so forth.

3) You are going to be challenged if you want to be. There are countless evil tasks you can take up that are meaningful and, unlike in most good tasks, you're not working for some nebulous "greater good" you're working for your own good, so you can make sure to do it right without worrying about distractions like "preserving innocents" and "avoiding collateral damage" and stuff like that.

:smallamused:

My list sounds terrifying and awful to a Good person, your list sounds sickening and boring to an Evil person, and a Lawful or Chaotic person would probably find things to like in both lists. That's how alignments work on a personal scale: if you like doing something, then doing more and better versions of that something for eternity is a good deal, whether "something" is "petting puppies" or "kicking puppies."

[Emmerask]

So which is stronger? Why? What are the "one-ups" one side has over the other? Which are stronger, balors or solars? I understand this is not exactly an answerable question, but I am thinking about a setting for a campaign that the PCs are the champions of one side or the other and fighting to tip the scales, trying to figure out how that idea would work.

If this campaign ever sees players, its a long ways off, but I know my current players want to play the "silly/ridiculous" campaign next, using unusual solutions and guerrilla tactics to take down overwhelming odds. Seems like a plausible setting.

Hell is actually stronger, the problem is that hell fights with eachother (devils vs demons) plus all the backstabbing :smallbiggrin:

[AuraTwilight]

So you're saying swingers are lawful good?

I thought everyone knew that.

[Immabozo]

I thought everyone knew that.

well, I dont quite take hippies to be lawful good. Seems more like a chaotic action to me

[Man on Fire]

the armies of the abyss out number hell and heaven put together but they don't get along. hell and the abyss also don't get along. the deciding factor is Evil's inability to fight together. hell and the abyss are usually to busy fighting each other to even start a war with heaven.

Kind of sad, because that means good vs evil is dominant over order vs chaos. I wish I could see cosmology based on the latter, where Archdevils and Archons are in uneasy alliance against equally uneasy alliance of Eladrins and Demons.

[Eldan]

Planescape, at least a bit. The Blood War is the dominating conflict and the sides of order and chaos don't exactly want to see anyone win it, but they certainly don't want to see the side closer to them lose.

[Lord Haart]

1) You get as many boyfriends/girlfriends as you want because you WILL find people that are understanding and loving. And since they are also going to be good, reasonable, and sharing and not going to be jealous or stupid, you CAN share relationships without problems.
1) You get as many hookups as you want because you WILL find people that are easy and great in bed. And since they are also going to be selfish and mercurial, they're going to be doing the same thing reasonable, so you CAN hook up with them time and again with plenty of others in between without any hard feelings.Now what about hookups you don't quite like? If you're a good person in heavens, you'll sleep with a wrinkled old granny not because you are pervert but because you know that no matter the appearance she's a good person and therefore deserves it, and you can take part in making her afterlife happier without harming anybody (and no, "i don't feel like it, someone else can do it anyway" is not a proper Good line of thought). If you're a bad person in Abyss, whinkled old disease-bloated hag will rape you if it strikes her fancy, then devour your level-drained internal organs.


2) Since you no longer need to work to ensure your survival or happiness, you can…Go and risk your life to save others, being ready to sacrifice yourself for someone else's well-being not because you must, but because that's what your own conscience and morality tells you to do.
2) Since you no longer need to work to ensure your survival--the fiends might torture you at first, but they're not going to waste a perfectly good petitioner--you can…Realise that you're not going to be "wasted"; you're going to be a precious little chesspiece, an exchange unit, and the way you're going to be put into circulation has nothing to do with your survival, happiness or opinion on the matter.


3) You are going to be challenged if you want to be.And you'll want to be, because it's not about challenges, it's about what you can do for goodness instead of idly sitting around, parasiting on your past good deeds and morally degrading. And you know that shame you feel if you find excuses to avoid getting up and going where you're needed.
There are countless good tasks you can take up that are meaningful and, unlike in most evil tasks, your failure does not mean your utter destruction by your superiors.Yep. As someone else said up the thread, the worst price you may pay is losing your night sleep (by the way, thank you, it's very much on spot).


3) You are going to be challenged if you want to be.Whether or not you want to be, actually. But hey, at least in western parts of the Bottom they give you an illusion of choice.
There are countless evil tasks you can take up that are meaningful and, unlike in most good tasks, you're not working for some nebulous "greater good" you're working for your own goodYeah, yeah, whatever makes you follow them carrots.

I wonder why such matters aren't nearly as often discussed from Law vs Lawlessness ("Chaos" is slightly misleading therm) aka Mechanus and co. vs Limbo and co. perspective. They always struck me as both more important and more substantial.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

*snip*

You know, I've always wondered what an exalted good poster looks like. Now I know. :smallwink:

More seriously, I hope you can see that you're still posting from a Good-biased perspective. The point is precisely that, to a non-Good person, the things you mentioned for the Good side are worse than the things on the Evil side.
If you're a good person in heavens, you'll sleep with a wrinkled old granny

Go and risk your life to save others, being ready to sacrifice yourself for someone else's well-being

And you'll want to be, because it's not about challenges, it's about what you can do for goodness instead of idly sitting around, parasiting on your past good deeds and morally degrading. And you know that shame you feel if you find excuses to avoid getting up and going where you're needed.

To an evil person, sleeping with an old ugly person and throwing your life away for someone else are terrible things that they'd never want to do because they couldn't care less about other peoples feelings or survival, and they don't feel shame at lazing around and not performing random acts of kindness.

Now, you probably can't sympathize with that point of view--and that's a good thing! Most real-life people are the equivalent of morally neutral with good tendencies, and I'd be worried if you did agree with the evil perspective. I'm just playing devil's advocate (and demon's, and yugoloth's, and gehreleth's :smallwink:) here to show that a Good afterlife looks good because we real-world humans are good--or at least aspire to be--but for someone who is actually evil, the good afterlife sucks. It involves doing everything they hate for eternity, while the evil afterlife is great for you right from the start if you're sufficiently capital-E evil in life and if you're not evil enough you can still work your way up the ladder after a while, whereas advancing in the good afterlife just means doing more of the stuff you hate.

Which is why if a paladin starts talking to a demon about "redemption" and "salvation" and "relieving your suffering" and all, the demon will just look at the paladin funny (and then probably try to kill them) because the demon isn't suffering and doesn't need to be saved from itself because it's living in its own version of paradise. Same thing with a hippie trying to convince a very lawful person that they're being held down by The Man, dude, and need to break out of their conformity--the lawful person likes it right where he is, thankyouverymuch, and from his perspective it's the shiftless chaotic good-for-nothing that needs to fall into line, because their perspectives are incompatible.


I wonder why such matters aren't nearly as often discussed from Law vs Lawlessness ("Chaos" is slightly misleading therm) aka Mechanus and co. vs Limbo and co. perspective. They always struck me as both more important and more substantial.

Mostly because the devs couldn't figure out coherent definitions of Order and Chaos that make sense, so everyone has come up with their own version, whereas plenty of people agree on Good and Evil and can argue about it.

[Lord Haart]

You know, I've always wondered what an exalted good poster looks like. Now I know. :smallwink:

More seriously, I hope you can see that you're still posting from a Good-biased perspective. The point is precisely that, to a non-Good person, the things you mentioned for the Good side are worse than the things on the Evil side.What? No, i… Me… I… Wow. Well, i'm very, very, very flattered (except for a "good-biased" part), but you've got me wrong. I was trying to highlight that both options kinda suck, not that Good one does it in a good and righteous way (feel free to invoke death of the author, though, if it came out that way somehow). I'm a green/black (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Analysis/MagicTheGathering) person (and probably NE by D&D chart), and being rewired into some sort of goodness golem who has no comprehention of not doing what's right (which is what happens to petitioners on Upper Planes as far as i understand, with possible exception of more-chaotic-than-good ones) sounds like a mindrape of worst kind to me. Bolded part of my previous post, in particular, is bolded because it disturbs me immensely.

Now, i still don't agree with your point of view on evil afterlife, so no worries. As far as i undestand it, it sucks even if you're naive enough to actually believe in that career-making bull****. You're screwed at the bottom, you're screwed further up the ladder, you're screwed for as long as there's someone higher than you and if you somehow manage to replace Big A, congratulations, now you're screwed beyond cognition (like i'm sure he currently is, no matter how good his pokerface). You have to run just to avoid getting even more screwed, and you aren't running fast enough.

I very much doubt that the demon you used for your example doesn't feel like he suffers. Now being saved from himself is definitely a silly concept to him; in his mind, it's everybody else in the Multiverse and beyond who has to pay for suffering they cause him. And, of course, he's not stupid enough to believe that all this redemption goody-goodness can give him that; ripping the paladin in half, on the other hand, will both give him one less obstacle in the future and, more importantly, vent some minuscule part of his frustration.

[Immabozo]

ripping the paladin in half, on the other hand, will both give him one less obstacle in the future and, more importantly, vent some minuscule part of his frustration.

What else are Paladins good for?

[PairO'Dice Lost]

I was trying to highlight that both options kinda suck, not that Good one does it in a good and righteous way (feel free to invoke death of the author, though, if it came out that way somehow). I'm a green/black (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Analysis/MagicTheGathering) person (and probably NE by D&D chart), and being rewired into some sort of goodness golem who has no comprehention of not doing what's right (which is what happens to petitioners on Upper Planes as far as i understand, with possible exception of more-chaotic-than-good ones) sounds like a mindrape of worst kind to me. Bolded part of my previous post, in particular, is bolded because it disturbs me immensely.

You did come across as endorsing the Good afterlives, actually. Given your most recent post, though, it looks like we basically agree: each afterlife is good for the people aligned with it and sucky for the people opposed, and Pure Good is as anathema to real-life people as pure Evil, because we're pretty solidly neutral and both the BoED and BoVD extremes seem crazy to us. But for someone who is strongly aligned in D&D, their own afterlife is awesome because their particular brand of crazy matches up with their afterlife's brand of crazy.


Now, i still don't agree with your point of view on evil afterlife, so no worries. As far as i undestand it, it sucks even if you're naive enough to actually believe in that career-making bull****. You're screwed at the bottom, you're screwed further up the ladder, you're screwed for as long as there's someone higher than you and if you somehow manage to replace Big A, congratulations, now you're screwed beyond cognition (like i'm sure he currently is, no matter how good his pokerface). You have to run just to avoid getting even more screwed, and you aren't running fast enough.

You could view it that way, though you might as well say everyone working for, say, McDonalds is utterly screwed from the lowest fry-cooker to the CEO. Yes, technically there's a lot of suckage involved, food service isn't really fun at the bottom, board meetings and accountability aren't fun at the top, everyone's under crazy amounts of stress, and so forth...but on a day-to-day basis, if you're the kind of person who likes working in the food service industry you have a relatively comfortable job doing stuff you like to do with good promotion prospects, and that's a pretty good position to be in. A hipster who thinks he's better than all that (i.e. a Good person sent to Baator accidentally) forced to work there will hate every minute, and someone just using it as a temporary job (i.e. a Neutral person in the same position) will probably get sick of it before too long, but the people who do want to be there are just fine.

Which is not to suggest that I think Hell is McDonalds with the torture and depravity scaled up to 11, but for all I know it might not be that far off. :smallwink:


I very much doubt that the demon you used for your example doesn't feel like he suffers.

He doesn't, really--not in the way the paladin means, at least. When the paladin talks about suffering from guilt or feeling sad that he can't be good or whatever, that's all meaningless to the demon, and the kind of suffering the demon understands (uppity do-gooders boring him for hours with talk of redemption or trying to smite him) wouldn't be referred to as "suffering" by the paladin.