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Pester
2006-11-22, 10:57 AM
Inspired by Ahsile's "Batman versus You" thread, this is where I ask you, nay, challenge you, even implore you to build a PC for whom Batman is their nemesis. Too long he's batted supervillains around, and it's time for the geeks and munchkins of the world to think of a way to beat him back!

Variations Include: One PC versus the entire Bat Team (Batman, **** (Oh, fine, Censored Word List,) Richard Gracen's Nightwing, Tim Drake's Robin, the Original Batgirl and/or Oracle, and Alfred.)

A PC build versus other superheroes, including...
Superman
Spiderman
Etrigan
Captain America
Captain Marvel
Wolverine
Green Lantern (Hal Jordan)
Dare Devil
Wonder Woman (Use rope is a given, obviously)
Storm

Such villains as...
Dr. Doom
Magneto
The Kingpin's entire criminal empire. (Maybe a vigilante or a socially-skilled PC.)
Bulls Eye
The Green Goblin
Mxyzptlk
Galactus
R'as al Ghul

And/or any combination of the above. Villains and Heroes, go!

Miles Invictus
2006-11-22, 01:31 PM
I'll take the easy one!

Daredevil: Spellcaster with Deafness and lots of Magic Missiles prepared.

Jades
2006-11-22, 01:35 PM
I'll take on the Bat Team. Monk, simple as that. Snatch Arrows takes care of the batarang, and Nightwing's bomb thingies, as well as bullets (hopefully).

I'm faster than them on foot, so they'd have to rely on their vehicles to catch me.

Bats can't throw me off a building (Batman) to my death.

Pegasos989
2006-11-22, 01:35 PM
Yeah. Bull's eye is also pretty much negated by deeper darkness, invisibilities, blindness/deafness -spell...

silentknight
2006-11-22, 02:23 PM
Er, I guess my Knowledge (Geek) ranks aren't high enough.
Who is Etrigan?

Pegasos989
2006-11-22, 02:28 PM
Er, I guess my Knowledge (Geek) ranks aren't high enough.
Who is Etrigan?

As the old Zen saying goes...

"When in doubt, consult Wikipedia"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etrigan

Tallis
2006-11-22, 02:55 PM
Etigan is a demon, can' give much in the way of helpful info though.
Which Captain Marvel are you referring to? Billy Batson (DC), Monica Rambeau, Mar-Vell, or Genis(Marvel)? I think there might be a 5th one out there now, but I'm not sure.

Pester
2006-11-22, 02:58 PM
That would be Captain Marvel of Shazzam! Fame. You can include the others too, although Miss Marvel is the only one I can think of.

If you consider superheroes to be BC, one with the Wisom of Solomon, the Strength of Hercules, etc... definitely seems a bit overblanced.

Etrigan is a knight from the days of Camelot who turns into a demon (That wants to get out and do bad things when his alter-ego, Jason Blood, isn't in charge.) He also once ran for president against Lex Luthor. Gotta love comics...

Bears With Lasers
2006-11-22, 03:29 PM
I'll take on the Bat Team. Monk, simple as that. Snatch Arrows takes care of the batarang, and Nightwing's bomb thingies, as well as bullets (hopefully).

I'm faster than them on foot, so they'd have to rely on their vehicles to catch me.

Bats can't throw me off a building (Batman) to my death.


Yeah, but he's a better martial artist than you and can therefore beat you. Plus he swings across the city on bat-lines, so he can catch you.

Pegasos989
2006-11-22, 04:10 PM
Yeah, but he's a better martial artist than you and can therefore beat you. Plus he swings across the city on bat-lines, so he can catch you.

Assuming bat team refers to batman and robin... Where is this idea from? I never saw batman training that much martial arts...

Bears With Lasers
2006-11-22, 04:24 PM
Assuming bat team refers to batman and robin... Where is this idea from? I never saw batman training that much martial arts...

Are you kidding me? Batman isn't the best martial artist in the DC universe, but he's certainly in the top five. Lady Shiva, Cassandra Cain (the new Batgirl... who's apparently gone evil due to retarded writing), and Richard Dragon are pretty much established to be better, but other than them, he's top dog.

KIDS
2006-11-22, 04:33 PM
Hm, Magneto? I think a druid (no metal on him, just leather) with some repulsion/heat metal/warp/repel should do the job easily. But otherwise I'd imagine Magneto as a sorcerer/elemental savant (metal) and he could be really deadly!

The_Werebear
2006-11-22, 05:47 PM
I'll take Batteam.

Wizard. Protection from Arrows(Which will stop batarangs if it stops shurikens), Fly, Stoneskin. Then apply non-reflex save spells until dead.

Dhavaer
2006-11-22, 05:56 PM
I'll take Batteam.

Wizard. Protection from Arrows(Which will stop batarangs if it stops shurikens), Fly, Stoneskin. Then apply non-reflex save spells until dead.

I'd avoid Will saves as well. Batman's got an insane Will save.

The_Werebear
2006-11-22, 05:57 PM
Ok. Baleful polymorph/Flesh to Stone/Disintigrate+True Strike

Bears With Lasers
2006-11-22, 06:57 PM
Batman's got an insane Fortitude save, too.

Edit: and wizards ARE Batman, so that doesn't count. :P

Jack_Simth
2006-11-22, 07:05 PM
In order to take down any superhero, you first need to disable their Plot Protection. Permanently. No spell exists for that. Ultimately, the only way to really get rid of Batman would be to buy out DC Comics, and all the IP to the character, then burn him. And that would take a lot of money.

Fax Celestis
2006-11-22, 07:24 PM
I'll take on Spiderman.

Spiderman's main strength is in his agility, so I will need an equally agile character. Scout should provide that nicely. However, Spiderman also has his "spider sense", which a good dose of nondetection should take care of. Since I'm not a caster, I'll have to get an amulet of proof against detection and location, but that's not too much of an issue.

The chances of me actually being able to keep up with him are difficult, though, so I'd be a psionic Thri-Kreen for a base speed of 40' and +30 to jump checks, and grab myself a level of Barbarian for rage and fast movement, and wear mithril breastplate, magical if possible.

There's also the issue of his webs. For this, I'd wear a ring of freedom of movement, which should be protection enough against that.

Spiderman is also a surprisingly heavy hitter, so I'll need something else to help avoid the damage. Perhaps a greater cloak of displacement. Take Martial Stance: Pearl of Black Doubt, which would allow me to strike harder whenever he missed me (and with a 50% miss chance, that'll be often).

Grab myself the Multiweapon Fighting tree, and fight with four handaxes. Take Snap Kick. Now, whenever I get a full-attack routine, my attack looks like +18/+13/+8/+3/+13/+13/+13/+8/+8 (four axes, one with iterative attacks, snap kick, and a bite attack).

Spiderman can be taken down by a Thri-Kreen 2/Barbarian 1/Scout 15 (ECL 20) easily, potentially sooner with a little luck and skill.

McDeath
2006-11-23, 06:05 AM
When it comes to Spider-Man, just stock up on Fortitude-save spells. He has excellent Ref and decent Will, but Fort...certainly above average, but not for a hero.

Sholos
2006-11-23, 06:30 AM
Considering Spiderman's DEX has got to be insanely high (he dodges full-automatic gunfire), you've got no hope of hitting him in melee. His INT and STR are also obscenely high.

Pegasos989
2006-11-23, 06:40 AM
I'll take on Spiderman.

Spiderman's main strength is in his agility, so I will need an equally agile character. Scout should provide that nicely. However, Spiderman also has his "spider sense", which a good dose of nondetection should take care of. Since I'm not a caster, I'll have to get an amulet of proof against detection and location, but that's not too much of an issue.

I would have assumed spider sense to be more like uncanny dodge...

Renegade Paladin
2006-11-23, 07:35 AM
I don't know about fighting Batman, but my favorite character is kind of like Batman. Only, y'know, he's perfectly willing to stick a sword into a Night Mask when he has to, and sometimes even when he doesn't.

Pegasos989
2006-11-23, 08:03 AM
Wonder woman just seems too easy to beat...

http://www.superdickery.com/images/bondage/bb63wondersploog.jpg

As the admin of superdickery.com said...


Oh no, not... green... liquid... Seriously, am I missing something here, 'cause that doesn't seem like much of a threat...

Selrahc
2006-11-23, 08:09 AM
When it comes to Spider-Man, just stock up on Fortitude-save spells. He has excellent Ref and decent Will, but Fort...certainly above average, but not for a hero.

He can take a hit from the hulk without ending up as sludge. That means hes tougher than a tank, which means he has an insane fortitude save.

Just because hes not a juggernaught doesn't mean he isn't insanely above and beyond human toughness.

Deathcow
2006-11-23, 10:00 PM
Seeing as how I've never read comic books, this reply will be somewhat uninformed.

Bullseye seems simple. Protection from Arrows pretty much neutralizes his offense, at which point you cast Magic Missile or Disintegrate or something.

Spider Man seems indestructible, unless of course you pull a Spiderman 2 and take away his self-esteem, which apparently takes his powers with it.

Wolverine can absorb damage indefinitely but in all the X-men movies (my only source of information, sadly) he pretty much got beaten on by every single enemy with decent melee capabilities. The only thing that hurt him was Rogue's draining thing (negative levels, perhaps?) in which case, a vampire with monk levels grapples him and beats him down within the space of a few rounds.

And how did Batman get to be a super hero, anyway? He doesn't even have magic or radiation-induced super senses or anything. He just has a cool suit and some Ninja training, which in DnD terms means he dies the first time he enters direct melee combat.

Rex Idiotarum
2006-11-23, 10:03 PM
Batman wins.
"Quick Robin, get the Bat AntiWizard Spray."

Curse you Adam West!

Dawnstrider_Moogle
2006-11-23, 10:11 PM
And how did Batman get to be a super hero, anyway? He doesn't even have magic or radiation-induced super senses or anything. He just has a cool suit and some Ninja training, which in DnD terms means he dies the first time he enters direct melee combat.

He's like a Monk 40/Rogue 40, with max ranks in Knowledge (Everything) and Craft (Infallible Victory Plan)...

...but he can only use the latter if he takes 20.

Jerthanis
2006-11-24, 12:48 AM
And how did Batman get to be a super hero, anyway? He doesn't even have magic or radiation-induced super senses or anything. He just has a cool suit and some Ninja training, which in DnD terms means he dies the first time he enters direct melee combat.


Short version or long version? Well, basically, Bruce Wayne's parents were murdered by a guy with a gun, and depending on which continuity or writer, sometimes the criminal gets away scott free and sometimes he's caught, sometimes it's even the Joker who kills his parents... but in any case, Bruce Wayne dedicates his life to cleaning up crime, to try and make it up to his parents for not being strong enough to save them. He trains in all sorts of martial arts, the world over and eventually comes back to Gotham and tries to stop criminals. When they aren't intimidated by him he realizes he needs something to strike fear into their hearts, at which point, a bat flies into his study and BW designs a costume with a bat theme. He is one of the very best martial artists in the world, and has expert knowledge of stealth and technology, and he has enough money to do anything he wants.

The reason he doesn't die upon entering melee is that he knows how to use people's strength against them, and he only enters melee when it's to his advantage to do so.


He's like a Monk 40/Rogue 40, with max ranks in Knowledge (Everything) and Craft (Infallible Victory Plan)...

...but he can only use the latter if he takes 20.


That's a good build for Batman, I've also seen a pretty convincing Kobold Wizard 5 mimicing his stats pretty well.

If I were building a character to take out Batman, I'd use a Ranger (good spot/listen) who utilized poisoned arrows and his own stealthiness element. It'd be expensive as all get-out, but enough applications of Purple Worm poison will lay pretty much anyone low. Keep some potions of neutralize poison handy of course, in case you roll a 1 on an attack roll. If I'm high enough level and succeeded at luring him to my lair (which would be in a wilderness area) I could even utilize HIPS and have the stealth advantage.

oriong
2006-11-24, 01:08 AM
He can take a hit from the hulk without ending up as sludge. That means hes tougher than a tank, which means he has an insane fortitude save.

Just because hes not a juggernaught doesn't mean he isn't insanely above and beyond human toughness.

Eh, that's not really an accurate measurement with comics. Superheros have stats very much like D+D characters, meaning their actual toughness is far, far beyond their logical toughness (i.e. lots of hit points).

For example, I've seen batman smashed through a brick wall by clayface. This is not something humans survive, but batman, while superbly conditioned, is not in any way superhumanly tough. After he got smashed through the wall he kept fighting just fine.

All superheros have plenty of HP, but that just means they operate like normal D+D characters, they're not above them.


EDIT: also depends on which hulk you're talking about. I know spiderman has beaten Grey hulk, but I don't think that incarnation was anything like a tank destroyer either.

MandibleBones
2006-11-25, 10:37 AM
I'll take on Wolvie - a nice Rogue of decent level (need the reflex saves and the uncanny dodge), max ranks in Use Magic Device, and a wand of maximized disinigrate cast by an epic caster (I'd have to bribe Doc Strange, I suppose).

Seriously - Fast healing nothing; if there's absolutely nothing left but the adamantium skeleton, he can't regen.

Piedmon_Sama
2006-11-25, 03:36 PM
Wolverine can regenerate as long as his brain remains (mostly) intact inside his skull.

No, I'm serious.

Bears With Lasers
2006-11-25, 03:37 PM
It's retarded, folks, but there it is.

Piedmon_Sama
2006-11-25, 03:39 PM
In all seriousness though, I've never had (and probably never will have) A D&D character who was the equal of a superhero. Even "street-level" heroes like Daredevil and Luke Cage are probably something like 40th level demigods in D&D terms. It'd take something like Elminster or Raistlin to handle the average superhero, and even then they'd probably fall to the Big Dogs like the Justice League or Avengers.

oriong
2006-11-25, 03:45 PM
What? Most superheros are nowhere near that powerful. With the exception of the 'big guns' like superman and his crew most superheros are nowhere near epic level. Sure, if you limit spiderman to just straight PC classes it'll take a lot of time and prestige classes to give him all his abilities and enough strength and dex boosts, but really all most superheros have is a template, which on it's own probably isn't worth much more than LA +2 to +6.

Now, what they DO have is about 30 layers of story protection that's going to keep anyone else from scratching them : P

Jack_Simth
2006-11-25, 04:56 PM
Wolverine and Spiderman, you drown.

Forcecage (barred version) followed by Wall of Stone or Wall of Ice or Wall of Iron or whatever as appropriet to seal it in except for the top, followed by lots and lots of water.

For that matter, that could be made to work for most of the superheros without particularly ranged attacks who can drown.
Takes a while, though. But then, don't most classic death traps?

RoboticSheeple
2006-11-25, 05:07 PM
For that matter, that could be made to work for most of the superheros without particularly ranged attacks who can drown.
Takes a while, though. But then, don't most classic death traps?

But it still can't kill Batman. It gives him enough time to plot an escape...

The_Snark
2006-11-25, 05:18 PM
Wolverine can regenerate as long as his brain remains (mostly) intact inside his skull.

No, I'm serious.

Mind flayer... Problem solved. Of course, there are a few obstacles, #1 being his adamantium skull. There are probably ways to get around this; the Focused Sunder fear and sixteen levels of monk would make sense, but by RAW it doesn't work. Alternatively, blast his skeleton with hardness-bypassing sonic attacks until it disintegrates, then proceed to eat brain... but again, going strictly by the rules there aren't any rules for this.

And if you manifest Dissolving Touch on the tentacles while grappling, it's reasonable to assume that it damages his skull. Do it repeatedly, and eat brain when able. It's a second-level power, meaning that the average XPH mind flayer (with the Expanded Knowledge feat) is capable of doing this. However, the average mind flayer might have difficulty surviving long enough to burn through his skull, so class levels are advisable.

Jack_Simth
2006-11-25, 05:26 PM
But it still can't kill Batman. It gives him enough time to plot an escape...
Remember where I mentioned you need to find a way around any superhero's plot protection?

If you like, you can cast Time Stop, Forcecage, and enough Delayed Blast Fireballs to ensure that he's going to lose.

Ninja Chocobo
2006-11-25, 06:11 PM
Daredevil's easy. Just need an arcane caster who can cast Shout and Greater Shout enough.
Daredevil deaf = Daredevil useless.

Piedmon_Sama
2006-11-25, 06:16 PM
What? Most superheros are nowhere near that powerful. With the exception of the 'big guns' like superman and his crew most superheros are nowhere near epic level. Sure, if you limit spiderman to just straight PC classes it'll take a lot of time and prestige classes to give him all his abilities and enough strength and dex boosts, but really all most superheros have is a template, which on it's own probably isn't worth much more than LA +2 to +6.

Now, what they DO have is about 30 layers of story protection that's going to keep anyone else from scratching them : P

Spidey's gone up against baddies that would make Asmodeus quake in his booties and won. If the Marvel U operated on an XP system like D&D's, he'd be a minor God. As it is, most major-name superheroes have been "adventuring" so long that they must all have hit the XP limit a long time ago, that was my point.

EDIT: On another note, if you want to debate RAW vs Marvel/DC canon, well.... you can't. Comic book continuity is notoriously inconsistent and nonsensical. In one story (E is for Extinction by Grant Morrison, 2002), Wolverine gets his arm disentegrated and it regrows in seconds. In another (The Brotherhood by Greg Rucka, 2003), 15 bullets to the chest puts Wolvie out for 45 minutes. Does this guy have Regeneration 5, or Regeneration 500? It just depends on who's writing him.

That Mind Flayer thing would never work though.

oriong
2006-11-25, 06:31 PM
Well, sure they don't follow the XP system at all, in fact if anything superheros tend to weaken over time rather than get better.

I mostly meant in terms of capability, Daredevil is certainly no 40th level monk. But, you're right their powers are just insanely fluid, something you don't have a lot of in D+D (most superhero RPGs do represent it in some way), so it's a pretty messy comparison to begin with, but looking at them sort of on average you can get a rough idea of how their abilities translate.

Of course folks like superman and wolverine, the major names of the superhero universes are going to be insanely tough to quantify just because of the number of writers and revisions and retcons they've undergone.

Bears With Lasers
2006-11-25, 06:35 PM
Remember where I mentioned you need to find a way around any superhero's plot protection?

If you like, you can cast Time Stop, Forcecage, and enough Delayed Blast Fireballs to ensure that he's going to lose.

What, you think Batman doesn't have evasion? Or epic enough Escape Artist checks to get through the forcecage?
He probably has Spell Stowaway (Time Stop), too.

Gralamin
2006-11-25, 06:48 PM
I'm amused at all the people after Batman, yet no one has tried touching Doom yet.

Way to beat Doom:

Build - anything that can get close to Doom.
Required items - Bracelet of Friends, with a token keyed to Reed Richards.

Strategy: Get close to Doom, use Bracelet. Richards always trumps Doom.

Now someone find a way without Richards.

Jack_Simth
2006-11-25, 07:18 PM
What, you think Batman doesn't have evasion? Or epic enough Escape Artist checks to get through the forcecage?
He probably has Spell Stowaway (Time Stop), too.
Okay, can I get his build, then? The villian needs to be in appropriet CR range, after all. The above basically assumed a 20th level villian and a 20th level hero. Push the save DC, and you can usually outpace saves, or at least match them. So he'll take half damage from half the DBF's, and none from the rest. Big whoop. So the Sorcerer doing this stands there behind a Wind Wall while spamming DBF's into the Forcecage. Or Summoned Monsters (while Invisible). Or whatever.

Bears With Lasers
2006-11-25, 07:19 PM
Build? He's the goddamn Batman. He doesn't have a build, he has victory.

oriong
2006-11-25, 07:21 PM
Until he reveals that along he was carrying a brick of anti-magic matter from the negaverse in his belt, which was given to him about 10 comics ago.

Jack_Simth
2006-11-25, 07:57 PM
Bear With Lasers and oriong:

That's why my first post in this thread mentioned eliminating his Plot Protection. Without that, the hero will win. Period. Because he can't lose otherwise.

StGlebidiah
2006-11-25, 09:36 PM
In one of the recent Wolverine: Civil War comics, Nitro on superhero steroids (no, seriously) burns LITERALLY all the flesh from Wolverine's skeleton. Nothing left but shiny metal bones. Eye sockets completely empty so there's no brain left. And he regenerates completely in about a minute or so. It's kinda funny.

'Course, then there's the "Ultimate X-Men" where Wolverine's entire purpose seems to be that he is constantly used as a punching bag. It's kinda disappointing.

Jades
2006-11-25, 11:19 PM
Didn't Grey Hulk rip Wolverine in half in the Civil War comics?

MandibleBones
2006-11-26, 12:14 AM
I argue that Wolvie got hit head-on by a laser blast from some sort of ubersentinel in that whole future-comic thing, and again, ABSOLUTELY nothing left but metal - no living tissue whatsoever.

Hence, disintigrate.

Kevlimin_Soulaxe
2006-11-26, 02:30 AM
Superman: Green Kryptonite Golem. Teleported right behind his desk in the newsroom.

Piedmon_Sama
2006-11-26, 02:39 AM
I argue that Wolvie got hit head-on by a laser blast from some sort of ubersentinel in that whole future-comic thing, and again, ABSOLUTELY nothing left but metal - no living tissue whatsoever.

Hence, disintigrate.

Actually, that future version of Wolverine is still alive, thanks to the Earth X reality's version of Machine Man, imbued with the powers of The Watcher, regenerating him from some pieces of brain matter that were still on the inside of his skull.

But yeah, in that situation his own regeneration powers wouldn't have saved him. However, that Wolverine was older and his powers were on the wane, less acute than the present Wolverine. (In a metastory context, Wolverine has become more popular since then and thus his powers increase.) He recently survived being torched down a skeleton and brain by a jacked-up-on-power-enhancements Nitro during the Civil War tie-in of the Wolverine monthly.

MandibleBones
2006-11-26, 02:42 AM
However, that Wolverine was older and his powers were on the wane, less acute than the present Wolverine.

So add a ring of three wishes afterwards to negate regen. If it works for the Tarrasque... *shrugs*

Piedmon_Sama
2006-11-26, 02:45 AM
Didn't Grey Hulk rip Wolverine in half in the Civil War comics?

Nope. It was the Ultimate (green) Hulk, and Ultimate Wolverine. The Ultimate Marvel universe is separate from the "established" continuity, in which Hulk would not have been able to do that.

Piedmon_Sama
2006-11-26, 02:47 AM
The point remains, Wolverine and other superheroes are too spotty in their portrayals. Wolverine might be no tougher than a Troll with a few levels in Barbarian, or he could be an epic-level Demigod, depending on who writes the comic.

GuesssWho
2007-01-27, 07:46 PM
It'd take something like Elminster or Raistlin to handle the average superhero, and even then they'd probably fall to the Big Dogs like the Justice League or Avengers.

But if they hadn't changed his mind, Raistlin would've defeated all of the gods at once-like Chaos almost did. Are you seriously of the opinion that your average superhero is more powerful than 21 gods combined?

Saint George
2007-01-27, 08:44 PM
Build? He's the goddamn Batman. He doesn't have a build, he has victory.

Sigged.

The main problem with beating batman is that he is always prepared. Always. There is no way to sneak up on batman. And even after that Batman can make some sort of crazy plan to win. The only person that might be able to outsmart him is Dr. Doom. And that is just a maybe.


Also, don't forget that Dr. Doom is a wizard. Just tossin that out there.

Jorkens
2007-01-27, 08:57 PM
Sigged.

The main problem with beating batman is that he is always prepared. Always. There is no way to sneak up on batman. And even after that Batman can make some sort of crazy plan to win. The only person that might be able to outsmart him is Dr. Doom. And that is just a maybe.
Or Bane. If anyone can come up with a build for Bane then we're home.

Saint George
2007-01-27, 10:39 PM
Bane didn't actually outsmart him... he just kinda... uh... broke him?

Anyways, the whole Bane arguement goes like this.
Batman > Superman
Superman > Bane
thus
Batman > Bane.

The whole broken back thing was just a fluke.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-01-27, 11:59 PM
Bane just didn't get the memo. Even if you think you're winning against the Batman, you are losing. If you think you have, without a doubt, won, you have in fact sealed your fate. You don't kill Batman- you pray a crappier superhero is after you instead.

tbarrie
2007-01-28, 01:03 AM
Edit: and wizards ARE Batman, so that doesn't count. :P

This whole "Wizards are Batman" thing bugs me. Has nobody on this forum read Seanbaby's Superfriends page? In a high-level D&D party, the Fighter is the guy who's reduced to being Batman.

J-man
2007-01-28, 03:42 AM
Mmmm... I take them all..

... Wizziew/Master Specialist/Seven Fold Veil/Abjurant Champion emerges as the winner.

JaronK
2007-01-28, 04:21 AM
Against Batman, how about a Diviner? Batman's strength is knowing his opponent... a diviner can beat Batman at his own game, wait for him to be in Bruce Wayne get up, and ambush him with a few well placed Disintegrates.

JaronK

Wehrkind
2007-01-28, 04:40 AM
See, a fighter can not be Batman because he is a one trick pony. A fighter can be Superman, because he does one of 3-5 things to win every engagement. Batman wins because no matter what you do, what your powers are, how obscure and miniscule your weakness or flaw, he knows it, and did a PhD thesis on it 20 years ago. He also, coincidentally, patented a handy cellphone sized machine capable of exploiting it, which can be yours for the low low price of 29.99$.
Seeing as how having an answer for everything is what makes wizards excellent, he is a wizard. (He also happens to have Tenser's Transformation on an unlimited use item.)

Takamari
2007-01-28, 05:13 AM
Ok, the arguement for Bats to be a wizard is good, but not correct. Batman is most definatly a rogue with monk and fighter training. He is smarter than most wizards and stronger than most fighters.

It was said that Batman's strength is in his planning. In the Dark Knight Returns series, batman beats the bejeapers out of Supes several times. He does it with his Kryptonite Napalm arrows shot by Green Arrow, and he even forged Kryptonite Guantlets. Point is Batman has time, money, and a good brain to think with.

To beat Batman, you have to out think him. Good luck. Or you have to do something that he has not thought of yet. Again, Good Luck. I would be a bard. Yes, you laugh now, but I bard could beat the bat.

How, well, first, the bard is extreemly good at information gathering, and everyone wants information about batman, so it won't arouse special suspicion. He would eventually learn the heros other identity. Now, he uses his abilities to work his way up in Wayne Enterprises. He is a skilled spy and talker by trade. No evil plans, nothing but recon. Do what Batman does, LEARN your rivel.

Learn all there is to learn about Wayne Enterprises. Attack Batman at the source of his money. Get thugs to do your dirty work and never be in a situation where you can be identified. Build an empire that can rivel his. Then trash his public opinion. Kill a thousand people and then tell the media that it is Batman's fault.

In any case, to beat batman, you cannot let Batman know who and where you are. Simple as that. Batman is HUMAN-it doesn't matter what story protection he has, a cross bow bolt to the back of the head wins.

Wehrkind
2007-01-28, 05:28 AM
Hmm you make some excellent points. I don't know that a class build like that would have all the various flexibilities of Batman, but since I just made up a word when there are perfectly good ones to fill the spot, I am going to ponder this after I get some sleep.

Takamari
2007-01-28, 06:23 AM
Batman is the top. One of the best. I don't know enough about Doom to make a guess, but knowing that he is a wizard makes things more and less difficult. So I'll not touch on him.

Other super heroes are different. Superman has kryptonite. I beat him by either finding my self some of this wonderful mineral or asking Batman, very nicely, to borrow his gloves...lol. Otherwise, Superman is a boyscout. Tried and true. To beat Superman, you just have to be evil in all the ways that are legal. Superman can do nothing to me if I am utilizing every loop hole in the laws to my advantage. PERIOD!!!

Spiderman...hm, He is a little tougher, but do-able. Here is how it goes. Kidnap Mary Jane. put her in a silence area that is also protected by a non detection spell, just to be sure spidy doesn't get help from anyone else. Now, send him the message by shooting Auntie May. BOOM! Spider Man, you will work for me. I have Mary Jane, She dies next if you do not comply. And then leave a picture. Make sure to leave the location of the picture so that you are harder to track down.

Wolverine and the rest of the X-men, save professor X or the phoenix. Find a way to make them think Batman is the enemy, lol. They rush in, he nukes them, problem solved. Seriously though. Cyclops is defeated by anyone with Ray Deflection. Colossus is a barbarian type...charm-get em big boy. Storm has that whole I control the elements thing, but I doubt she has what it takes to take on my summoned greater air elemental and fire elemental, and fiendishs Roc, you get the point. Ice Man, he is scary because he can technically freeze any water in your body...but I'll take energy immunity for 1000 alex and then blast him with my empowered maximized orb of FIRE. Wolverine, he is strong and nearly undefeatable. He isn't the brightest bulb. MAZE!!! Imprisonment!!! Dominate Person-walk up to X and kill them.

The Hulk, HAH...just like a barbarian...CALM EMOTIONS for the win. Bruce Banaster dont got nothing on Mr Heavy Mace to the dome. The list goes on. Anyone seen Final Fantasy 7 Advent Children. Guess What-cloud=a fighter level 20 or so...depending on your power levels in your games. Well, maybe higher, he did cut a dragon in half. The point is that every hero or villian is beatable...guess how...be Batman. Think about it. Heroes are heroes because they are good. A smart evil villian doesn't allow the hero to use his abilities, A smart evil villian puts as many people between him/herself and the hero. The villians are no better. Everything has a weekness, and if you are stating that you character has a similar power level, it isn't too difficult to win.

axraelshelm
2007-01-28, 06:26 AM
hmm my current wizard would rip the batman team apart with fly mirror image, lot of fire ball and the that they are just still human.

but once you go into the superpowered beings it get difficult captain marvel would be fun see him transform into his adult self i would use greater dispell magic to stop it for 1d4 rounds and then let loose the fieballs on a unprotected little boy.

superman i cant kill haven't got the spells for them yet but i can charm him to do my laundry.

magical beings no way for a wizard to win.
tec beings maybe at higher level but a lazer cannon depending on the power out put can be more powerful than 8d6 worth of damage.
not to mention robots.

Ninja Chocobo
2007-01-28, 07:06 AM
Otherwise, Superman is a boyscout. Tried and true. To beat Superman, you just have to be evil in all the ways that are legal. Superman can do nothing to me if I am utilizing every loop hole in the laws to my advantage. PERIOD!!!
Y'know, that's a lot like a (slightly less smart) version of Asmodeus*. The only reason that the Lawful deities haven't smote him to pieces is that he's doing exactly what he should be, and he's got a contract to prove it. May I suggest memorizing the phrase "Read the fine print" and using it whenever applicable.
*No offense meant, virtually everyone is.

John_D
2007-01-28, 08:01 AM
Superman is weak to magic. Just throwin' that out there.

Khantalas
2007-01-28, 10:58 AM
Ultimate Spider-Man (IIRC, movie Spidey is based on Ultimate Spidey).

The thing is, in all continuities I know, Spidey is bashed and killed and disintegrated and brutally stabbed to oblivion by anyone that knows his identity. And in Ultimate Marvel, his webbing is created by his own body, not with chemical substances that has nothing to do with his metabolism like it was in the original Spidey. Which means using my 23 ranks in Knowledge (applications and uses of Restriction-enzyme Fragment Length
Polymorphism) combined with my massive Intelligence modifier and miscellaneous bonuses from things like items and feats and synergy modifiers, I can find who Spidey is. Now, declaring it on an international TV channel with proof, I remove Spidey's Anynomous Invulnerability and using JJJ, I get mobs with AK-47's and M4A1s and G3s and whatever weapon you can think of. Because Spidey doesn't have an infinite Jump modifier, I surround him and make the mob shoot in such a way that there's no way he can avoid the bullets (using a special attack roll calculated by 1d20 + my Intelligence modifier + my attack bonus + infinity because Spidey's Anynomous Invulnerability is null). See, he is dead.

Well, I am not geek-y enough to actually get involved.

Woot Spitum
2007-01-28, 11:10 AM
Batman is not a wizard. He does have hundreds of artificers working for him at Wayne Enterprises and can pick and choose the best of the items they come up with to use. Some ranks in use magic device, and suddenly Batman can use magic MORE effectively than a wizard.

DaMullet
2007-01-28, 12:56 PM
Superman/Supergirl/Superboy/Krypto The Superdog:

Go to the market and buy some kryptonite. It appears to be common enough, exery common criminal in Metropolis has some, and Lex Luthor evidentally has a warehouse or something. Then, affix it to your arrows, throw a rock of it at him, and while he's weak, shoot him. Break off the arrow so that he's got a lump inside him, and coup de gras with a pointy stick.

Epic Level EXP gain, here you come.

Belteshazzar
2007-01-28, 01:42 PM
A Druid would take Wolverine apart because of the metallic skeleton. Repel metal, Entangle, Summon swarm, and heat metal for the kill. His metallic brain box just became a pressure cooker. Or for even more fun Transmute Metal to Wood in which case even Magnetto would start feeling a little nervous if his armor and weapon suddenly became useless.

jjpickar
2007-01-28, 02:20 PM
Uh guys, Batman's a FREAKING NINJA! He's unkillable. Period.

Though, I've never seen him fight pirates...

Takamari
2007-01-28, 03:39 PM
Funny. Ok, jjpicker, I've got you. I can beat Batman. It doesn't take that much at all. I'm an elf, dwarf, gnome, or intelligent undead. I just wait for him to die. Humans don't live that long, and because Batman is ninja, he is in excellent shape, but that doesn't erase the beatings he has taken. He won't live too long past retirement.

Grimfist
2007-01-28, 04:27 PM
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Pun-Pun yet...

Pester
2007-01-28, 04:48 PM
Funny. Ok, jjpicker, I've got you. I can beat Batman. It doesn't take that much at all. I'm an elf, dwarf, gnome, or intelligent undead. I just wait for him to die. Humans don't live that long, and because Batman is ninja, he is in excellent shape, but that doesn't erase the beatings he has taken. He won't live too long past retirement.


Well, there's always the Lazarus Pit.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-01-28, 04:49 PM
And Batman could always train a protege, as has been seen a couple times :P

Divides
2007-01-28, 04:51 PM
Wonder woman just seems too easy to beat...

Well, to be fair, that's the old wonderwoman... before anybody, DC included, took her seriously (to my understanding).



He can take a hit from the hulk without ending up as sludge. That means hes tougher than a tank, which means he has an insane fortitude save.

That's probably HP more then fort.

Of course, one thing to keep in mind is that any of the famous superhero's are all probably RIDICULOUSLY high level (fight powerful super-villains almost every other day for several decades, you'll end up pretty high level as well)... so A: of COURSE they're tougher than the average human, and B: someone taking them on will almost deffinetly have to be of a comperable level.



Wolverine can absorb damage indefinitely but in all the X-men movies (my only source of information, sadly) he pretty much got beaten on by every single enemy with decent melee capabilities. The only thing that hurt him was Rogue's draining thing (negative levels, perhaps?) in which case, a vampire with monk levels grapples him and beats him down within the space of a few rounds.


It's a bit of a tangent (then again, so is most of my post XD), but I'd put Rogue's abilities as negative levels AND "spell-thief like" abilities (which is to say that she steals other mutants' "extrodinary and supernatural" abilities). In this case, she stole wolverine's special regeneration...

Then again, these are only rough interpretations from somebody who's not really into Marvel per-se, so neh.



And how did Batman get to be a super hero, anyway? He doesn't even have magic or radiation-induced super senses or anything. He just has a cool suit and some Ninja training, which in DnD terms means he dies the first time he enters direct melee combat.

Batman isn't a "Superhuman" in the traditional sense... but he's basically got three things: He's rich, he's had allot of training (as has been covered, he's one of the best martial artists in the DC universe), and above all else... he's SMART (even if not all DC script writers are the greatest at displaying such a statistic XD). In other words, he stays in the running by being a ridiculously talented gadgeteer with a "little bit" of martial arts training on the side.



I'll take on Wolvie - a nice Rogue of decent level (need the reflex saves and the uncanny dodge), max ranks in Use Magic Device, and a wand of maximized disinigrate cast by an epic caster (I'd have to bribe Doc Strange, I suppose).

Seriously - Fast healing nothing; if there's absolutely nothing left but the adamantium skeleton, he can't regen.

I seem to recall hearing that Wolverine's recovered from being vaporized by an atom bomb.

Again, I don't follow Marvel, but if this is true, it means that he's more akin to the tarasque in how his regeneration works than to normal creatures.



What? Most superheros are nowhere near that powerful. With the exception of the 'big guns' like superman and his crew most superheros are nowhere near epic level. Sure, if you limit spiderman to just straight PC classes it'll take a lot of time and prestige classes to give him all his abilities and enough strength and dex boosts, but really all most superheros have is a template, which on it's own probably isn't worth much more than LA +2 to +6.

Now, what they DO have is about 30 layers of story protection that's going to keep anyone else from scratching them : P

Actually, from what I've seen, I'd say that atleast most DC superhero's are lower-range epic (after applying LA).

Marvel tends to have a lower power average, from what I've seen (the above noted duely acknowledged, of course). I'd put them at Lv 5-15 (depending on the individual).

All that said, it stands that I do agree with you that in NEITHER case is the "street level Superhero's are level 40+" an accurate description. The truly high range super's (such as most of the members of the JLA) may qualify as being at that range, or even a bit above, but most superhero's just have a knack for being "lucky."

(That, and keep in mind that even a Lv 10 D&D character can take some pretty absurd levels of abuse.)



Bear With Lasers and oriong:

That's why my first post in this thread mentioned eliminating his Plot Protection. Without that, the hero will win. Period. Because he can't lose otherwise.

... It's happened in the past with most of them.

... From what I've heard :-p.



I argue that Wolvie got hit head-on by a laser blast from some sort of ubersentinel in that whole future-comic thing, and again, ABSOLUTELY nothing left but metal - no living tissue whatsoever.

Hence, disintigrate.

To be fair, disinitigrate does say it leaves dust...



So add a ring of three wishes afterwards to negate regen. If it works for the Tarrasque... *shrugs*

DAMN YOU!!!
(:-p.)



Bane just didn't get the memo. Even if you think you're winning against the Batman, you are losing. If you think you have, without a doubt, won, you have in fact sealed your fate. You don't kill Batman- you pray a crappier superhero is after you instead.

ROFLMAO.




superman i cant kill haven't got the spells for them yet but i can charm him to do my laundry.


While I will grant that mind affecting magic has been demonstrated as one of the best ways to hinder Superman, it is still important to keep in mind that he's got pretty ridiculous will saves (I believe it's been demonstrated), and an even more ridiculous Charisma score (evidently).



magical beings no way for a wizard to win.

Right... because who ever heard of wizard spells that NEGATE MAGIC...

:-p.



A Druid would take Wolverine apart because of the metallic skeleton. Repel metal, Entangle, Summon swarm, and heat metal for the kill. His metallic brain box just became a pressure cooker. Or for even more fun Transmute Metal to Wood in which case even Magnetto would start feeling a little nervous if his armor and weapon suddenly became useless.

Yeah, but transmute metal to wood on Wolverine?

That's... just... sick.

(Doesn't it require line of effect, though? Not sure you have that to Wolverine's skeleton. Probably missing a crucial piece of RAW that I'm just too groggy to think of when I say that, though :-p.)

PooAvenger
2007-01-28, 04:54 PM
1st of all:
Originally Posted by Bears With Lasers http://www.giantitp.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1596848#post1596848)
Build? He's the goddamn Batman. He doesn't have a build, he has victory
Sigged.

2nd of all:
Batman:
Even though Bats is nigh unbeatable this is what I do;
build-Wizard epic transmutation specialist
action-make my own spell and go back in time to when bats just began in like the 40's and kill him when he's at his weakest.

Oh and that whole Bard thing vs. Batman, congrats you just found the Joker's build :).

Marius
2007-01-28, 04:56 PM
Ultimate Spider-Man (IIRC, movie Spidey is based on Ultimate Spidey).

The thing is, in all continuities I know, Spidey is bashed and killed and disintegrated and brutally stabbed to oblivion by anyone that knows his identity. And in Ultimate Marvel, his webbing is created by his own body, not with chemical substances that has nothing to do with his metabolism like it was in the original Spidey. Which means using my 23 ranks in Knowledge (applications and uses of Restriction-enzyme Fragment Length
Polymorphism) combined with my massive Intelligence modifier and miscellaneous bonuses from things like items and feats and synergy modifiers, I can find who Spidey is. Now, declaring it on an international TV channel with proof, I remove Spidey's Anynomous Invulnerability and using JJJ, I get mobs with AK-47's and M4A1s and G3s and whatever weapon you can think of. Because Spidey doesn't have an infinite Jump modifier, I surround him and make the mob shoot in such a way that there's no way he can avoid the bullets (using a special attack roll calculated by 1d20 + my Intelligence modifier + my attack bonus + infinity because Spidey's Anynomous Invulnerability is null). See, he is dead.

Well, I am not geek-y enough to actually get involved.

Ultimate spiderman is doesn't create his webbings from his body. From wikipedia: "Exceptionally brilliant, he completes his scientist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientist) father's research (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Research) on adhesives (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adhesive), thus, inventing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invention) the web compound for his suit."
In the old marvel universe EVERYONE knows now that peter parker is spiderman and in the ultimate universe a lot of people does too, they even make jokes about it.

Draz74
2007-01-28, 05:09 PM
Bear With Lasers and oriong:

That's why my first post in this thread mentioned eliminating his Plot Protection. Without that, the hero will win. Period. Because he can't lose otherwise.

In D&D terms, "Plot Protection" = "always fights foes that actually have a lower-than-appropriate CR. Usually much lower, involving groups of low-level mooks."

That said, I maintain that Batman is a high-level Scout, with a couple levels dipped in Monk and Fighter and Shadowdancer. With amazing abilities and (as someone else mentioned) a lot of Artificer followers (one of whom, Fox, is quite high-level himself).

Scout for the rediculous amount of skill points, plus the hit-and-run (Spring Attack/Skirmish) martial arts style.

Divides
2007-01-28, 05:12 PM
In D&D terms, "Plot Protection" = "always fights foes that actually have a lower-than-appropriate CR. Usually much lower, involving groups of low-level mooks."

That said, I maintain that Batman is a high-level Scout, with a couple levels dipped in Monk and Fighter and Shadowdancer. With amazing abilities and (as someone else mentioned) a lot of Artificer followers (one of whom, Fox, is quite high-level himself).

Scout for the rediculous amount of skill points, plus the hit-and-run (Spring Attack/Skirmish) martial arts style.

Hmm... scout isn't a bad point. I was jotting him down as rogue... but really, Batman never struck me as the type to depend on a flank (even when he fights with Robin or another member of the JLA, they're usually depicted as side-by-side, not opposite ends of the target :-p).

Woot Spitum
2007-01-28, 08:38 PM
Plot Protection[Extraordinary ability] Whenever it is absolutely critical for you to succeed on a roll (failure means death) you may take infinity on said roll. You cannot suffer a critical failure on this roll even if you roll a natural 1. [Special] This ability is always in effect and cannot be disabled, even by Pun-Pun.

Frosty Flake
2007-01-28, 09:50 PM
How about a fallen Hound Archon with enough hit dice to be a Large creature who takes ten levels in Warhulk(?) to get the bonus 20 strength and a bunch of levels in... I don't know... something crazy, cleave-attacking his way through that damn space-station the justice league is in... wait, they lost that, didn't they?

oh yeah... and GO DEADPOOL!

Ninja Chocobo
2007-01-28, 11:35 PM
OR, you could use the Hulking Hurler to throw the universe at one of them, dealing infinity billion d6 damage, and sending them into their component atoms.

Arbitrarity
2007-01-29, 10:23 AM
Ummm... Epic, you can balance on air, and escape from a forcecage, so we need something hefty here...

Ahah!

Wraith spawns! Have wraiths kill millions of 1'st lvl commoners, use the controlled wraiths to order the other ones, have them all attack Batman.

The laws of probability say he will get hit at least a few hundred thousand times, and take thousands of negative levels (no save).

Natural 20 ftw!

Obtree
2007-01-29, 11:17 AM
Just summon Chuck Norris or Abraham Lincoln: http://www.weebls-stuff.com/toons/ultimate+showdown/#start
Batman would be toast.