V becoming an Archmage makes too much sense

[Mage Paradox]

He's at the right level, and as an archmage he'll be best placed to:
a) follow in the footsteps of his master, and
b) beat Xykon

V is useless in combat anyway, and the feats and abilities he can get will make him better able to help the team. There's basically no downside to using his next 5 levels towards this (since as a prestige class it won't hinder his actual level- i.e. 15 levels of Wizard plus 2 levels or Archmage = 17th level Wizard in effect).

Imagine him being able to do things like mastery of elements, or using spell like ability to gain daily abilities like disintegrate. Imagine him using arcane reach to pull off spells like Imprisonment from long distances. That's like a one shot attack on Xykon.

[Morty]

Archmage is a rather pointless PrC that serves no purpose but to give arcane casters new tricks at practically no cost. I really doubt that V is going to take levels in something that has no narrative or personal importance.

[zimmerwald1915]

a) follow in the footsteps of his master
V's relationship with her master is not one of following in his footsteps.


b) beat Xykon
That's Roy's job. He's the protagonist while V is a supporting character. Plus, V isn't allowed to solve problems.

[Mage Paradox]

If V wants to become a finely tuned "pocket knife" rather than a cudgel, then this is perfect for V's character development. Plus of course, useful extra abilities!

[Finagle]

Vaarsuvius already had the big climactic fight with Xykon. He was packing more power than any single mage on the prime material plane. He still lost. It won't happen again, even with the help of some munchkin prestige class.

[Morty]

V's change of attitude and approach to power has already started, and was perhaps culminated when she dominated YukYuk instead of whaling on Z's superior defences. It occurred thanks to a change of outlook and actions instead of taking a prestige class. Any further development in this direction is likely to happen the same way.

[Cizak]

V is useless in combat anyway, and the feats and abilities he can get will make him better able to help the team.

I was under the impression he and Durkon was the team's most powerful members?

[Kish]

Vaarsuvius' character development is not going to take the form of realizing wizards are supposed to be Batman, dammit, and he's been committing a crime against optimization by being a blaster wizard.

[pikeamus]

I can't really imagine Rich wanting to take the time to explain the difference between archmage and wizard for non-D&D playing readers when it doesn't serve any significant narrative purpose.

[Mastikator]

V's main goal at the moment is to moan about (mountains of) slipped milk (blood). And to repent somehow. V also understands that simply gaining more power isn't the answer to solving problems. Back at the island where the FCC gave V the power, they also gave hir a way to save hir family without selling hir soul, V choose power and now realize how foolish it was.
My guess is that V will wallow in self pity for some more time, and then during the upcoming showdown do some good deeds before dying.

[Raineh Daze]

Why would V have spell focus in two schools, anyway? :smalltongue:

[FlawedParadigm]

I was under the impression he and Durkon was the team's most powerful members?

This.

You can name the thread "I really, really, REALLY want V to become an archmage" but it makes absolutely no sense, has no purpose, would take at least half a comic to explain the difference to non-players, and would go against the general spirit of the comic. This is not - to quote V, actually - bad self-insertion fan fic.

Oh, and V doesn't have the prerequisites in any case.

[Icewraith]

You seriously don't think V might get some mileage out of spell focus: evocation and spell focus: enchantment?

[Raineh Daze]

You seriously don't think V might get some mileage out of spell focus: evocation and spell focus: enchantment?

Correct. That's exactly my opinion. +1 to spell DC for Enchantment? V is a specialised Evoker, why the hell would she have taken that? Because she has a few enchantment spells? Not enough of a reason.

[Dr.Epic]

He's at the right level, and as an archmage he'll be best placed to:
a) follow in the footsteps of his master, and
b) beat Xykon

V is useless in combat anyway, and the feats and abilities he can get will make him better able to help the team. There's basically no downside to using his next 5 levels towards this (since as a prestige class it won't hinder his actual level- i.e. 15 levels of Wizard plus 2 levels or Archmage = 17th level Wizard in effect).

Imagine him being able to do things like mastery of elements, or using spell like ability to gain daily abilities like disintegrate. Imagine him using arcane reach to pull off spells like Imprisonment from long distances. That's like a one shot attack on Xykon.

Exactly, it makes too much sense, thus it shouldn't happen. No one in the Order can be a highpowered character. They're all underpowered and have to have horrible builds.:smallwink:

[Icewraith]

V's enchantment spells have been plot-critical on a number of occasions so far.

We've seen V use charm monster, dominate person, crushing despair, suggestion, and probably hold person (and V had sleep at one point) so enchantment seems to be V's spell school of choice when blasting isn't called for. Granted, one might argue from a meta-game standpoint that since will-save-or-lose spells are guaranteed to work in plot critical moments, there's no point in having the feat, but conversely you'd take the feat to help ensure the spells land in plot-critical moments.

Archmage also has very nifty abilities that aren't fully duplicated by feats and are often better (especially for a blaster), doesn't sacrifice casting, and you get to legitimately refer to yourself as an Archmage. It's also Core.

Edit: Alternatively, if you're preparing four Disintegrates as an Evoker, you might consider Spell Focus: Transmutation.

[Asta Kask]

I was under the impression he and Durkon was the team's most powerful members?

Durkon isn't a team member anymore. :smallfrown:

[Cizak]

Durkon isn't a team member anymore. :smallfrown:

Sure he is, just on a different team.

[King of Nowhere]

and i reallyt don't like the archmage at all. what's the point of a prestige class that does all the regular class do, but it's more powerful? it makes all the idea of a prc moot. a prc should give an extra bit of characterization, it should change a bit the powers of the regular class, it should not be just like the regular class, but better.
It's not even powergaming: powergaming is about minmaxing, where you have to give something of equal value for everything you take, and the point is to get a combination of skill that end up being more powerful. There's no art of minmaxing when you can take "the same, but better". My aged grandmother could do it.
And I think those reasons would also apply in-comic. A class that's the same, but better, compared to the regular class, is meaningless from a story perspective.

[Psyren]

Plus, V isn't allowed to solve problems.

Er, what? Even before the splice V was solving problems.

[Thrillhouse]

If V wants to become a finely tuned "pocket knife" rather than a cudgel, then this is perfect for V's character development. Plus of course, useful extra abilities!

Right, because THAT'S what V meant when he said he wielded his power like cudgel. That he needs a better build. :smallannoyed:

[DaveMcW]

and i reallyt don't like the archmage at all. what's the point of a prestige class that does all the regular class do, but it's more powerful?

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070130
"Loss of Class Abilities: Although advancing as an archmage grants additional spellcasting abilities in a character's previous arcane spellcasting class, the character does not get any other benefits from those classes. For example, a wizard 15/archmage 5 only has the class abilities of a 15th-level wizard. Similarly, if he has a familiar it, only has the abilities granted by a 15th-level master."

I don't think Blackwing would like that. :smallwink:

[Mage Paradox]

Boo hoo Blackwing.

V should do it for the good of the team. There's every reason to do it, and no reason besides plot not to. Can you imagine how useful he'll be after a few levels of archmage? Arcane reach for spells like irresistable dance and imprisonment. Spell like ability for disintegrate. Mastery of elements for his fireball. Or arcane fire once he gets level 9 spell slots, so he finally has an attack Xykon can't have immunity to.

Elan's prestige class seems to have no drawbacks too, and the author didn't spend much time explaining it. Indeed, the giant rarely explains much of the plot for non D&D folk. As far as they're concerned V will just start referring to him/herself as an archmage.

[FlawedParadigm]

Every character in the Order could be in a better class than they're in. They're not. They are almost certainly not going to be. Belkar has an XP penalty for next to no reason. Elan got a prestige class because the plot basically required it.

No one else has any good reason to change, and because this is not a comic about optimal D&D play, they are not going to. You feel free to write that strip up on your own if you like.

[Porthos]

Boo hoo Blackwing.

V should do it for the good of the team. There's every reason to do it, and no reason besides plot not to.

You mean that the only reason that V should do it is because in a game it would be a optimal great thing to do, but that in a STORY he might not because of various character motivation reasons?

Well, you don't say. Pity this is a story and not a play-by-play of a tabletop session. :smalltongue:

[Mage Paradox]

I don't even play D&D. I just think it would be cool and useful, as well as strong character development.

[Kish]

There's every reason to do it, and no reason besides plot not to.

So...every reason that isn't a reason to do it, and no reason except the only reason that matters not to?


Elan's prestige class seems to have no drawbacks too,

Other than explicitly not advancing spellcasting and it requiring Elan to go from light armor to no armor, you mean? Not that this is important because Elan took the Dashing Swordman prestige class as part of the plot. Vaarsuvius is not going to suddenly, ignoring the plot, start optimizing better because screw the plot and the character, optimizing is good (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15058320&postcount=472).

[Living Oxymoron]

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070130
"Loss of Class Abilities: Although advancing as an archmage grants additional spellcasting abilities in a character's previous arcane spellcasting class, the character does not get any other benefits from those classes. For example, a wizard 15/archmage 5 only has the class abilities of a 15th-level wizard. Similarly, if he has a familiar it, only has the abilities granted by a 15th-level master."

I don't think Blackwing would like that. :smallwink:

Not to mention that each Archmage ability costs a spell slot from 5th to 9th level.

[IW Judicator]

I can't really see V becoming an Archmage from a narrative standpoint, but I could certainly see hir becoming a lizard. :smalltongue:

[Mage Paradox]

Not to mention that each Archmage ability costs a spell slot from 5th to 9th level.

The good abilities are well worth it though. For instance, with a 7th level slot V can use arcane reach to do one shot spells like Imprisonment or Irresistable Dance from 30 feet away. Super cheap. Or for a 5th level slot V effectively gets an extra disintegrate spell every day (or a different spell of hir choosing) with no need to prepare it, by using spell like ability. Or mastery of elements, which for a level 8 slot makes V able to become the master blaster. Imagine hitting Xykon with a Sonic/Acid Meteor Swarm. Fire/Cold/Electricity immunity that! Arcane Fire, while not as good, has a similar usefulness- as Xykon/Z can basically do nothing to resist the damage type (no spell resistance, no fire immunity rings, no nothing- just eat the damage)

[thereaper]

Optimization is not allowed in this comic, unless it's played for laughs.

That's why Xykon has only ever used his forcecage variation once, that's why Roy is able to contribute despite being a fighter, that's why V and Durkon almost never have the right spell prepared.

If the comic allowed optimization, it would be a very different (and not nearly as fun) story.

[FlawedParadigm]

Optimization is not allowed in this comic, unless it's played for laughs.

That's why Xykon has only ever used his forcecage variation once, that's why Roy is able to contribute despite being a fighter, that's why V and Durkon almost never have the right spell prepared.

If the comic allowed optimization, it would be a very different (and not nearly as fun) story.

And long over, since the party would have had Pun-Pun.

[Cizak]

I don't even play D&D. I just think it would be cool and useful, as well as strong character development.

Ah, yes, more spells. That's exactly what V needs. That's the direction his character development is going.

[zimmerwald1915]

Ah, yes, more spells. That's exactly what V needs. That's the direction his character development is going.
Conversely, her character development won't be served by taking fewer spells.

[sims796]

And long over, since the party would have had Pun-Pun.

I don't get it.

[Kish]

FlawedParadigm is saying that if the Order cared about optimization, one of them would have followed an Internet theoretical optimization template to become omnipotent.

I don't really agree with the specific example, because PunPun doesn't actually work and if someone wants to start a thread in the D&D forum I will explain why*, but the point that the Order is clearly not built for theoretical optimization and it makes no sense to presume that Vaarsuvius will suddenly make an un-plot-related pure-optimization move (so 0 is too much, apparently) remains true.

*I am probably lying about whether I will give a dissertation on why PunPun doesn't work, unless :xykon: I get really, really, really bored.

[lyric76]

and i reallyt don't like the archmage at all. what's the point of a prestige class that does all the regular class do, but it's more powerful? it makes all the idea of a prc moot. a prc should give an extra bit of characterization, it should change a bit the powers of the regular class, it should not be just like the regular class, but better.
It's not even powergaming: powergaming is about minmaxing, where you have to give something of equal value for everything you take, and the point is to get a combination of skill that end up being more powerful. There's no art of minmaxing when you can take "the same, but better". My aged grandmother could do it.
And I think those reasons would also apply in-comic. A class that's the same, but better, compared to the regular class, is meaningless from a story perspective.

I'm kind of puzzled at this widespread sentiment about archmage. To me, it seems obvious that an archmage is a stronger mage. I mean... just look at the name?

[Emanick]

Everyone insisting that "V CANNOT BECOME ARCHMAGE BECAUSE ARCHMAGE = POWER AND MORE POWER = LESS CHARACTERIZATION" needs to chill out.* As The Giant has noted, that's a false dichotomy.

I don't think that V will become an archmage. But if (s)he does, I won't be terribly surprised, because it could help to compensate for hir overcorrection against the "blast away" mentality (s)he has been making ever since the end of the last book.

The Giant is a good enough writer to turn almost any tactical move into a positive characterization move, in my opinion. It's annoying to go into thread after thread about game mechanics in OOTS and see people insisting that something will never happen because it would make sense in a D&D game. That's not how this story works, folks. The last Team Tarquin vs. Team OOTS fight is proof enough of that.

* Obviously, this is hyperbolic. I'm arguing against a general attitude rather than anyone in particular, because most people are making more sense than that.

[137beth]

You seriously don't think V might get some mileage out of spell focus: evocation and spell focus: enchantment?

I am certain of it: +1 DC to saves cannot be displayed in-comic, and since saves are made if and only if it is plot-appropriate, increasing his/her DCs wouldn't have any effect, since it wouldn't change whether it was plot-appropriate for opponents to make their save.

[thereaper]

I don't get it.

Pun Pun is a D&D 3.5 character build that allows a character to literally do anything they want.

At level 1.

[Raineh Daze]

Everyone insisting that "V CANNOT BECOME ARCHMAGE BECAUSE ARCHMAGE = POWER AND MORE POWER = LESS CHARACTERIZATION" needs to chill out.* As The Giant has noted, that's a false dichotomy.

Ah, you saved me the trouble of having to say this myself. :smalltongue:

V is unlikely to take it, but she's in the right level range, and if there's a plausible in-story reason for it, then it could happen. It isn't automatically impossible for being slightly more useful than a level of wizard; 'the Order isn't optimised' =/= 'the Order cannot ever make a good choice when levelling up'.

[FlawedParadigm]

FlawedParadigm is saying that if the Order cared about optimization, one of them would have followed an Internet theoretical optimization template to become omnipotent.

I don't really agree with the specific example, because PunPun doesn't actually work and if someone wants to start a thread in the D&D forum I will explain why*, but the point that the Order is clearly not built for theoretical optimization and it makes no sense to presume that Vaarsuvius will suddenly make an un-plot-related pure-optimization move (so 0 is too much, apparently) remains true.

*I am probably lying about whether I will give a dissertation on why PunPun doesn't work, unless :xykon: I get really, really, really bored.

It depends which version of Pun-Pun we're talking about so far as actual viability, particularly with a DM fairly lenient about what a Wish can do, but that's an entirely different topic and wholly irrelevant.

But yes, if the Order wanted to be 100% optimail, they could have gotten Pun-Pun or a Hulking Hurler or V would be doing Locate City bombs or something like that.

If the story Rich wanted to tell wanted them at even 25% optimal, we would not have four single-classed characters, and there's no way in Hell that Belkar would be stomping around with an XP penalty for Barbarian.

I'm not saying that optimisation exists in inverse proportion to character development - I generally play fairly optimised characters, but they have plots and concerns and will make suboptimal decisions if it fits their personality or biases to do so - but what I am saying is that it's not a part of this comic. Rich has said this so many times it's not even funny.

There's certainly no reason to include it when it runs in direct opposition to established character development. Again, ignoring that V does not qualify for Archmage to begin with (why is this thread still even open?) we come across the point where V has stopped going "MOAR POWA MOAR POWA" and is more interested in personal atonement (via saving the world, in part) now. S/he has become more interested in wielding what power s/he has skillfully than just acquiring more of it, and has received a personal lesson from the Big Bad that there's all kinds of power other than Arcane. Even if it did include an earless creature gloating about the benefits of racial +8 to Listen.

If V had never had the soul splice/Familicide arc, then there might be some tiny chance that s/he might have had some in-character reason to go Archmage, if it supported Rich's narrative at all. However, that arc did happen, and I can't think of a single way in which taking that class would improve the narrative to any significant degree. Even Elan's prestige class seems like it's going to be a dip - he took one level for making Charisma his combat stat and immunity to damage from broken glass, but has spent most of his time since focusing on improving his spells - both how he uses Illusions and broadening into a selection of healing magic. I honestly won't be surprised if we never hear of Dashing Swordsman again.

[Psyren]

Optimization is not allowed in this comic, unless it's played for laughs.

"Optiimization" isn't a binary on/off switch. All the characters are optimizing to some respect, just not so much that it becomes the focus of the story. The most prominent example is Elan's prestige class that lets him use his Charisma score in combat, but even little things like Haley/Hinjo packing multiple material weapons, V showing Elan how to gain circumstance bonuses to his illusion DCs, or Durkon buffing Roy with Freedom of Movement before he fights a lich are "optimizing."

While there is much more the Order could do to be stronger in a fight (such as V knowing Polymorh yet only using it to dig so far) I don't think it's fair to simply write off the sensible precautions/strategies they DO use.

[Lord Vukodlak]

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070130
"Loss of Class Abilities: Although advancing as an archmage grants additional spellcasting abilities in a character's previous arcane spellcasting class, the character does not get any other benefits from those classes. For example, a wizard 15/archmage 5 only has the class abilities of a 15th-level wizard. Similarly, if he has a familiar it, only has the abilities granted by a 15th-level master."

I don't think Blackwing would like that. :smallwink:

Still has full caster progression so either way its a 20th level caster with 9th level spells. And the difference between a 15th level familiar and a 20th level familiar is practically nothing.

[Scrub]

V can take anything as the story demands as hir new class as long as s/he meets the requirements.
Wouldn't even suffer an XP penalty for it as long as s/he doesn't go Nale levels of crazy with hir build since Wizard is a favored class for Elves.
Optimization has never been an issue here either way.

[quasit]

Well, after Xykon's painfully harsh lecture on power equals power, it doesn't look unlikely to me that he chooses to, maybe after some cool stripes in wich V reasons about it and get the means to. Like Elans dashing swordman, I think a prestige class choice taken after some events and story devices feels better than than a "I think I'm just going to take a level on this one and note it down my character's sheet". Maybe "Plot demanding it" is on the prerequisites.
Didn't thought about this before this thread, but I like the idea.
Let's wait and see what happens... :smallamused:

[KillianHawkeye]

Let's wait and see what happens... :smallamused:

Yeah, see, that's not something that happens around here.... :smallwink: