[3.5] Crusader Maneuvers IL 13+: Give Me an Idea What's Possible

[Phelix-Mu]

Hi all,

My epic character is IL 12-13 in the next level or two, and I'm looking to pick up a Crusader level in prep for going into Jade Phoenix Mage. While I'm waiting for my hardcover copy of Bo9S to arrive, please give me ideas about maneuvers and stances to pick. I also have a swordsage level and a ShadowSun Ninja level, so I have a bunch of maneuvers already. The character is a Int-based grey elf monk17/conjurer1/abj.champ.5/swordsage1/shadowsun ninja1, and I may pick a level of swordsage next for plot reasons and to net the AC boost.

But the crusader maneuvers are foreign to me. Since I have a high dex and Combat Reflexes, and 10' step, AND I am the primary tank for the party, I expect that I will get good use out of about any combo of crusader maneuvers. But please, please...any tricks would be useful. The DM is throwing nihilist demons armed with guns and futuristic weaponry at us, and the next series of bosses seems to be Cthulu related. Help will be...most appreciated.:smalleek:

[Urpriest]

Are you lawful? If so, Stance of Perfect Order comes online around then. The ability to "take 11" on various things is quite useful.

[Phelix-Mu]

I am indeed Lawful. I already have the Diamond Mind maneuvers for Concentration-based saves. What other uses do you tend to find AoPO good for?

I am a skills heavy build, so it can't hurt. Might free up some spell slots where I currently store skillful moment, as well.

[Urpriest]

I am indeed Lawful. I already have the Diamond Mind maneuvers for Concentration-based saves. What other uses do you tend to find AoPO good for?

I am a skills heavy build, so it can't hurt. Might free up some spell slots where I currently store skillful moment, as well.

Well, there aren't really any other ways around natural 1 on attack rolls, so I could see employing it near the middle of your iteratives to make sure some of the less certain ones hit. Also will be relevant for dispel checks or piercing SR, since often those are balanced so that you succeed on an 11.

[Phelix-Mu]

Well, there aren't really any other ways around natural 1 on attack rolls, so I could see employing it near the middle of your iteratives to make sure some of the less certain ones hit. Also will be relevant for dispel checks or piercing SR, since often those are balanced so that you succeed on an 11.

Hmm, most of my magic is wraithstrike or gish-related buffing, but avoiding the natural 1s would be nice, since I get quite a few attacks. Bard buffs mean I rarely miss, and I guess AoPO would shore up a massive Power Attack tactic, which I've already done several times. No crits hurts, though.

Out of combat utility seems quite high, though, since most of my skill checks succeed by a high margin, and will never fail if I can ensure an average roll.

I will think about it.

[navar100]

By RAW, your first stance has to be a 1st level stance. For epic play your best option is Leading The Charge to give the warriors of your party extra damage on charging equal to your initiator level. Your next stance should then be Aura of Perfect Order. An auto-11 once per round is a big deal.

I take it you're primarily a spellcaster. To that end try to take maneuvers that support or buff rather than strikes. White Raven maneuvers, of which Leading the Charge is one, is your friend. Two White Raven maneuvers you should take are White Raven Tactics and Order Forged From Chaos. You can now do the following in one round:

Swift Action: White Raven Tactics on a party member allowing them to take another turn of actions the same round.

Move Action: Order Forged From Chaos on all party members allowing them to move their speed right then and there on your turn to get into whatever optimal position they need.

Standard Action: You still have this to do whatever you want, such as cast a spell.

[Urpriest]

I take it you're primarily a spellcaster.

Actually, I thought that too, until I took a look at the build and remembered seeing it before. This guy is mostly Monk, the casting is a supplement, which makes the situation somewhat different.

[navar100]

Even so, still take White Raven Tactics and Order Forged From Chaos. You can still use a standard action to attack with a strike maneuver, possibly auto-hitting if you're in Aura of Perfect Order stance as I fondly did in one juicy round of combat with Master of Nine.

[Phelix-Mu]

By RAW, your first stance has to be a 1st level stance. For epic play your best option is Leading The Charge to give the warriors of your party extra damage on charging equal to your initiator level. Your next stance should then be Aura of Perfect Order. An auto-11 once per round is a big deal.

I take it you're primarily a spellcaster. To that end try to take maneuvers that support or buff rather than strikes. White Raven maneuvers, of which Leading the Charge is one, is your friend. Two White Raven maneuvers you should take are White Raven Tactics and Order Forged From Chaos. You can now do the following in one round:

Swift Action: White Raven Tactics on a party member allowing them to take another turn of actions the same round.

Move Action: Order Forged From Chaos on all party members allowing them to move their speed right then and there on your turn to get into whatever optimal position they need.

Standard Action: You still have this to do whatever you want, such as cast a spell.


Actually, I thought that too, until I took a look at the build and remembered seeing it before. This guy is mostly Monk, the casting is a supplement, which makes the situation somewhat different.

Mmm, the prize goes to Urpriest. My speed is quite high (220'), and my stealth and initiative generally lead to me scouting or leading point. The bard has music that lasts quite a long time, plus the Focused Performance, so I typically have very good stats and very high combat bonuses. Wand of heroics, wand of wraithstrike, greater mighty wallop, potions of enlarge person...like I said, I get lots of support. Enemies are typically immune or highly resistant to spell damage, so melee DPS has been key to past victory. Hilarious, since this leaves the fight to my monk girl and the druid's buffed fleshraker; DWK sorcerer/incantatrix and half-fey druid and sublime chord bard all playing catchup with my damage output. Only our imported space marine npc has comparable damage (guess why). (Notice the op-level difference:smallwink: )

I have Snap Kick and Sun School plus Abrupt Jaunt (Int-based monk), so I rush in, unload as much as possible from the first round, and keep it up until stuff is dead. Most stuff doesn't hit me (AC in the 70s-80s with buffs), which is good, cause my hp is not sterling (though it's now respectable...at level 20 it was very depressing). My maneuvers are generally mobility or defensive, plus Ruby Nightmare Blade for rounds where I can't get off a full-round attack (like a round where I'm moving about when in need of healing via Shadow Sun Ninja).

Generally, the fights have been going well (I only died once, and it was a friendly fire incident that is more or less down to my character having a terrible job description..."keep it from moving while we warm up the super-damage-combo"). But, it's just been revealed that we are fighting Cthulu-esque boss monsters bent on destruction of the multiverse (and they have guns and plasma cannons), so I'm feeling like I need more. Yeah. Just MOAR.

Thanks, any advice like this is helpful. I've never seen ToB used effectively (we haven't used it in the past), and only broke into it as I realized that my heroically (and intentionally) non-optimized build was going to need a shot in the arm. Anyone with experience, your comments are most welcome.

[Phelix-Mu]

Even so, still take White Raven Tactics and Order Forged From Chaos. You can still use a standard action to attack with a strike maneuver, possibly auto-hitting if you're in Aura of Perfect Order stance as I fondly did in one juicy round of combat with Master of Nine.

White Raven generally sounds like win, even considering the low number of melee-competent people in the group (may be fixing this soon with summons and gate and such). Stone Dragon sounds not cool (except for that 9th level beauty), and Devoted Spirit...

Well, really, Aura of Perfect Order aside, and keeping in mind I want White Raven Tactics, what can I get from DS with just one crusader level (and eventually a few maneuvers from Jade Phoenix Mage)?

[I have Shadow Sun Ninja, so I can already heal myself...more healing is good, especially with the action economy...but more kill is a priority...I'd like lockdown, but like 90% of the enemies we fight use guns/ranged stuff, and I'm not clear what DS stuff can work off of that.]

[navar100]

For just raw damage when you're only getting one attack anyway, Divine Surge is a good damage strike.

Foe Hammer is nice to get through DR.

Law Bearer is a nice charge maneuver. +8 to hit, stacking with charge bonus to hit and +4d8 damage. If target is chaotic, gain +5 to saves and AC until next turn.

Radiant Charge is Good's equivalent. No bonus to hit, +6d6 damage, if target is evil gain 10/- DR until next turn.

[Urpriest]

Let's see, just reading through some of the options from Devoted Spirit...

Entangling Blade might be nice to limit enemy mobility a bit.
Foehammer is good if your opponents have weird DR (common on Cthulhu marines) and you don't have other ways to pierce it, but you probably have other ways to pierce it.
Immortal Fortitude isn't quite available, but it's a rather unique effect that you probably don't have access to without Delay Death or analogous cheese.
Iron Guard's Glare does allow you to "tank" ranged foes too, as long as they're using attack rolls...but the penalty is kind of minor at this level.
The shield-using stuff is kind of cute, but not likely applicable to you.
Strike of Righteous Vitality is for later, but as mentioned is actually fairly nice. The more players with access to Heal the better.
Thicket of Blades is basic tanking fuel, nice if your enemies want to 5 foot step away and shoot your friends.

Beyond those already mentioned, those are ones that might be worthwhile.

[Phelix-Mu]

For just raw damage when you're only getting one attack anyway, Divine Surge is a good damage strike.

Foe Hammer is nice to get through DR.

Law Bearer is a nice charge maneuver. +8 to hit, stacking with charge bonus to hit and +4d8 damage. If target is chaotic, gain +5 to saves and AC until next turn.

Radiant Charge is Good's equivalent. No bonus to hit, +6d6 damage, if target is evil gain 10/- DR until next turn.

Well, it's yet to be seen if Cthulu-esque is chaotic or not. It's been established that most of his minions are not evil (by DM plot point), so I know that knocks down about half of my aligned maneuvers (the lawful ones may be game or not...we haven't determined the chaotic thing.).

As Urpriest surmised, I do have transmuting on my unarmed strike (in addition to a handful of penetration due to monk levels). Backup bypass never hurts, and it might be nice just for that first kick of the battle that doesn't bypass DR (as per transmuting...tried to get shadowstriking...lol, no luck).

The main problem is that I am getting size-stacked unarmed strikes, so even my normal punch is pretty nice. Divine surge might be a nice option, though, and it will come up every few rounds (if I understand the crusader recharge mechanic properly)...24d8 plus Snap Kick for 16d8 and Sun School off of a teleport for another 16d8...not bad.

I'll have to look into the Thicket of Blades thing. Since most enemies use ranged, if they want to attack someone else, they don't move much, and the DM has been very loose with the firing ranged weapon while threatened stuff that I might normally benefit from. I'm gonna have to grill him about whether this applies. I also have Robilar's Gambit, but I rarely get any use out of it, so I might be retraining it.

Question: can I use Adaptive Style to reload/reselect both Crusader and Swordsage maneuvers in the same round?

[Darrin]

Question: can I use Adaptive Style to reload/reselect both Crusader and Swordsage maneuvers in the same round?

Yes. Adaptive Style resets all your maneuvers for all your martial adept classes.

I've always been fond of Aura of Chaos myself (even without the infinite damage trick). Greatsword + Castigating Strike = fistful of d6.

Something else I've always wanted to try, but it requires RKV/Nightstick abuse: Shield Counter gives you a shield bash attack as an immediate action. Divine Recovery/Divine Impetus lets you convert 2 turn undeads into another Shield Counter. I think it needs to happen on your turn, though, so... if you can provoke an opponent into attacking you, TU/2 = # of attacks you can unload on them.

[Phelix-Mu]

Sadly, RKV and sons are well outside my wheelhouse. Too bad, cause I hear there are a lot of tricks down that road.

Any other suggestions?