[3.5] Is this Character too strong compared to the rest of the Party?

[Feint's End]

Hey my fellow Playgrounders. For a campaign I'm rejoyning (after 11 months of absence) I created a new character and I wanted to hear your words on him and especially if he might be considered op in any way compared to the other members of the group.

The reason why I'm actually asking is because I am by far the most experienced player in the group and generally building the most powerful characters (in the classes I choose .... so I don't mean overall). Now I know that I won't overshadow or be stronger than the other people in our group (indeed my Character is inferior to two t1 classes) ... yes actually make them better at what they do. This thread is more for giving me (serious) reasons if I have to explain to my dm why I have better stats then the other players and ofc as a reference to show them the answers of experienced players like you.

Also feel free to leave feedback on my Character. I know I did some semioptimal choices and I'm gonna set a sidenote there.

Other members
-Boneknight Cleric with Dmm (no extra turning cheese). After me the Player who uses his spells to their best potential but with less knowledge about the game (knows all his classfeatures though). About overshadowing him I'm not really concerned simply because he is a Cleric and knows what to do with his actions.

-Human Planar Shepherd. One of the strongest classes in D&D our Player picked a bad plane on purpose so the strongest class features are out/weaker. Aside from that he sometimes doesn't know all his classfeatures and doesn't play druid to his full potential. I heard him say once that Wildshape isn't worth it and that the animalform doesn't really provide anything (our dm ruled though that you have to know the animal). Also he has a base constitution of 18 for what it's worth it.

-Elf Ninja/Assassin. Our Dm houserulde the Sudden Strike into Sneak Attack but still our weakest member. I suggested him some classes once but he wants to keep it simple. My personal philosophy is "let people play as long as they enjoy their character"-like so I won't try to interfere with the parts he can actually do something and as long as he has a good time I'm fine too. In fact I have some tricks to make him work better. Also he is our skillmonkey.

My build
Draconic Lesser Aasimar Crusader 7/Cleric 1/Warblade 2
str 22 (with +2 item) dex 18 (with +2 item) con 18 int 12 wis 11 cha 14 -- 100 Hp
-feats: Extra granted Maneuver (feattax), Traveldevotion (swift action move), Animaldevotion (mainly for the flightspeed), Combat reflexes (for wallbuild), Stand Still (for wallbuild)

-gear to mention: Deflecting Naginata +1 with Weaponcrystal of lesser return, Masterwork Composit Longbow (str +6) with Weaponcrystal of least return, Mithralbreastplate +1 with Warning Armorblades +1, Heward's handy haversack, Scout's Headband (true seeing or see invis), Third eye Clarity (effect negation), Amulet of natural armor +1, Shadow Cloak (deflection to armor, concealment and teleport), dex and str +2 items

-maneuvers: Crusader:
1. Crusader's strike (change later), Charging Minotaur, Stone Bones (change later)
2. Mountain Hammer (dr and hardness suck)
3. White Raven Tactics (to make the best out of my init), Defensive Rebuke (Tankab. and awesome on aoo build)
4. White Raven Strike (for the ninja), Divine Surge (dmg)

Warblade:
1. Moment of perfect Mind (Wil is pretty weak), Steel wind (prequ.)
2. Emerald Razor (attack against touch ac if nec.)
3. Iron Heart Surge (neg. effect negation)

Stances: Bolstering Voice (in combat till Thicket of Blades), Hunter's Sense (out of combat), Martial Spirit (needed as prequ and for realism reasons)

Spells (the few I have): 0. Mending (Always nice since we watch such things), detect magic (standart), create water (we have survival elements), 1. Endure Elements (Same reason here ... cold environment)

skills: maxed diplo, concentration, jump, tumble, few points in knowledge and balance (to bring it to 10)

General things: very prepared character (all in character ... gonna be CG and playing someone who came around a lot before joining the group), White Raven Strike/Defensive Rebuke to help our melees and esp. our ninja, I have +9 init so chances are good for a good spot in init -> use White Raven Tactics for bad initiative teammate

Reasons they might become upset: My stats are significantly better due to +10 bonus at Level 10 (they all started with +8 stats as do I) but I'm MAD whereas two of the other members are not, I use a template with +1 la (buyoff at level 3)

Hope you can give me some input and good reasons to use if they come up with complaints. Also I want to show them the thread if necessary to make them understand I'm not just making things up.

[eggynack]

Eh, you actually seem a bit under par. You're going to be completely outstripping that ninja all the time, but so's everyone. Your character is pretty well built, but clerics and druids are more powerful, and DMM and planar shepherds are just about the most optimal route to take. You'll probably be able to contribute, but I wouldn't worry about out-classing your team mates much. If the druid starts complaining, just tell him the truth of the matter, which is that his character is fully capable of becoming one of the most powerful characters in the party overnight if he picks his spells better and wildshapes.

[Feint's End]

Eh, you actually seem a bit under par. You're going to be completely outstripping that ninja all the time, but so's everyone. Your character is pretty well built, but clerics and druids are more powerful, and DMM and planar shepherds are just about the most optimal route to take. You'll probably be able to contribute, but I wouldn't worry about out-classing your team mates much. If the druid starts complaining, just tell him the truth of the matter, which is that his character is fully capable of becoming one of the most powerful characters in the party overnight if he picks his spells better and wildshapes.

Mhmm I know that classwise I'm underpar but from an inexperienced players perspective my "amazing" stats plus the fact that I used La (at Level 10 that is a setback of less than 2000 exp) might seem hefty. On the outside of course. I know about the power of the two full casters (or lets say the potential power) and I focus more on protecting and making them more efficient.
Also I try to make the Ninja better (yuk) and not overshadow him (well damage wise but who doesn't) in his areas of expertise.

Thanks for the feeback though and keep it coming. As true as your statement is it would be nice to hear some more people's words on this.

[Feint's End]

Selfpump

I really would like to hear some more people say something about this :smallsmile:

[eggynack]

Well, the cleric should be fine if he knows anything about char-op. If he's playing DMM persist, then he probably knows that that path leads to more power than you have. The two problems you have then, are the druid and the ninja. The druid problem seems very simple. The conversation in my mind goes something like, "You're so crazy OP. You have higher stats than anyone else in the party," and you say, "You can become a brown bear, which has 27 strength, for 30 hours a day. There are other optimal forms out there, particularly if you actually look for them. If you want stats so much, then just frigging get them and stop complaining to me about problems you could solve by using your abilities."

The problem with the ninja, however, is obviously a bit impossible to resolve in that way. You're far more powerful than he is, though it's a small consolation that everyone else is too so you're not the problem. If he doesn't care about how terrible he is, then let him not care about how terrible he is. If he wants to stop sucking, tell him how to suck less, and work with the DM to make him better. In the meantime, you're doing as well as you can on the problem by focusing on white raven stuff. The druid is just being dumb though. If he has a problem with what you're doing, that's his problem to work out in his own head, not yours.

Edit: He can actually be a brown bear 40 hours a day. Does he not know about natural spell or something? If he dislikes wildshape, that might be why. If that's what the problem is, then that's still on him. He's decided that casting spells is more important than having high stats, which means that he could have what you have and decided against it. That should tell him something.

[Sith_Happens]

Doesn't matter if he picked a so-so plane, at some point the Planar Shepard will break the game by accident. At the very latest that being when he gets the Outsider Wildshape++.

[Feint's End]

Thanks to both of you. I don't think he will break the game accidentally because he doesn't know how to use even Wildshape effectively ... not considering outsiders now :/. Btw he has Natural spell (As suggested by me).

Well the Ninja is another thing. I'd like to suggest a way to make him better without actually making it way more complicated for him :/. Maybe suggest the Dm to give him bonusfeat ala fighter? But then he had to pick the Feats and that's again something problematic.

Well I'll try to outbalance the Ninjas weaknesses a bit and I won't make the Druide and the Wizard worse. Lets say it like that :)

[CIDE]

I'd have to second everyone else. The only reason you'd be out performing anyone other than the ninja is due to their play style. They aren't playing anywhere near their max and at least with the Druid his ignorance is blinding me right now.

Hell, there's a PrC for nothing but wildshape (MoMF). While not the most optimal route it's still freaking awesome and completely playable.While it's not your job it probably wouldn't be a bad idea to throw some animal forms his way to show him how wrong he is.

[eggynack]

I don't really know a good way to improve the ninja up to the party's level without increasing the complexity. To some extent, complexity of your in combat actions is directly proportional to your tier. It's not perfectly linear, but it's close enough. He's not going to be able to get above tier 5 unless he gets a whole bunch of options beyond dealing damage and dealing a lot of damage. Even more problematically, one of those options on that list probably isn't even "deal the most damage per round in the party." I dunno if there's a good solution to this problem that doesn't involve pushing him into ToB, or some other system of higher complexity.

[Feint's End]

I'd have to second everyone else. The only reason you'd be out performing anyone other than the ninja is due to their play style. They aren't playing anywhere near their max and at least with the Druid his ignorance is blinding me right now.

Hell, there's a PrC for nothing but wildshape (MoMF). While not the most optimal route it's still freaking awesome and completely playable.While it's not your job it probably wouldn't be a bad idea to throw some animal forms his way to show him how wrong he is.

To defend the player here because he is a good friend of mine I have to say that there are casual gamers ... in fact a lot of casual gamers.
While it's sometimes hard to understand for people like you and me who know about the rules and how to build very strong characters, there are player who just don't want to put so much time into playing the game aside from the actual game time. I can totally understand their approach and don't want to punish them for it therefor judging him is a bit harsh. But you are right about the effectivness of Wildshape in the right hands

@eggynack: thanks for the good suggestions and in fact you are right. When he reached Level 6ish (can't remember exactly) I suggested him to take a level in Swordsage (with Adaptive style) and going into Shadow Sun Ninja. The main problem was that he didn't want to learn a new system and therefor sticked with Ninja and Assassin. Well at least he has some spells now and our dm does his best to give him situations where he can shine ... Like snipe somebody form afar and things like that.
Same thing here about his reasons for picking semioptimal combinations (or playing subpar) for what he wants to play.
It would be nice if there would be a way to make him actually better without too much stress. I could try to convince him to a 1 level dip for Assassin's stance or Island of Blades. That might be a start.

[eggynack]

To defend the player here because he is a good friend of mine I have to say that there are casual gamers ... in fact a lot of casual gamers.
While it's sometimes hard to understand for people like you and me who know about the rules and how to build very strong characters, there are player who just don't want to put so much time into playing the game aside from the actual game time. I can totally understand their approach and don't want to punish them for it therefor judging him is a bit harsh. But you are right about the effectivness of Wildshape in the right hands


Well, that's the thing of it though. He has a choice between two options. Either he can wildshape in order to equal your in combat power level, or he can take on the mantel of the casual player, in which case he shouldn't complain when he underperforms. He shouldn't underperform, because he's a frigging druid, but he might feel like he's underperforming, so you should tell him to wildshape. Either you care about power or you don't. You don't get to live in some weird twilight of optimization where you complain about how weak you are but don't do anything about it when advice is given. If he's a nice guy who just doesn't care about optimization, then just let things run their course and it should be fine. If he complains about how weak he is, and resists every effort to change his play style, he's a bit of a jerk. The same goes for the assassin, though to a much lesser extent. That guy can't just change from sub-optimal to optimal with by altering how he plays a little.

[HurinTheCursed]

The druid character has more talent but doesn't use it to its full extent while your character has spent time thinking how to improve and trained a lot ? The player cannot blame you because you invested more time thinking to your character. Otherwise, just tell him what to do to use his abilities. He could blame you if you overpowered the game while they were holding back to make the game more interresting.

For the ninja, it's the same to some degree. He doesn't want to spend some time on in character but would like him to shine more ? He can listen to your build advice. He wants to keep it simple ? No luck, D&D is not made to let simple melee characters shine in combat, which leaves him a lot to do using his superior skills.