[PF] Which Combat Maneuver

[sepchan]

The current campaign I'm playing in is slated to reach into the mid to high level. I have very little experience playing above 10th level in Pathfinder and I was wondering which combat maneuver I could focus on in my build. I have seen comments saying that things become immune/hard to trip at higher levels and similar issues with grapple. So what I'm hoping to get out of this is a combat maneuver that would be versatile and preferably able to be used consistently as I level.

I'm playing a Biped Synthesist Summoner. I already plan to have high Strength, so I wanted to find something else to do with my Strength besides hit things. As a Synthesist I can be huge (Easily increased to gargantuan) at level 13 if that makes a difference for some of the combat maneuvers.

Thanks in advance for any advice.

[Corlindale]

Trip and grapple are usually the most potent maneuvers, but it's true that they won't be universally useful. This is true of pretty much all of them, though.

Grapple may be the most potent one, and as a synthesist you can probably become better at it than most, with access to huge size and some evolutions specifically related to grappling.

Trip can be nice too, but it requires enemies to be non-fliers with legs. Also, not all enemies are equally affected by being tripped (a spellcaster can sling spells just as well from prone position, though it will of course be harder for him to get away).

Bull Rush is only really fun if you have something to push people into. It could be pretty effective if you combine it with some of the battlefield control spells on the summoner list (like the Pit spells which specifically do not allow saves when someone is bull rushed into them).

Disarm is even more restricted than trip, but it can be very powerful against enemies reliant on equipment. Smart foes will have backup weapons, though.

[grarrrg]

I vote for Trampling/Overrun!

Just for funsies.

[Certified]

The following assumes there are other melee focused characters in the party.

While not really a Combat Maneuver, one tactic for the Synthesist is to pair Combat Patrol with the Reach and Pull Evolutions. If i were to add in a Maneuver it would be Reposition as you are getting the first 5' for free. This helps keeps people from rushing the casters or escaping. Although, using natural weapons the Rpositioning Strike will not trigger that often even with improved critical. Add in the Trip Evolution if using a bite attack, this is easier than the required Feats and allows for the use of Repositioning Strike

[sepchan]

Are there any special rules for Grappling in Pathfinder when you have multiple limbs?

[StreamOfTheSky]

Since you're doing this the right way (Synth Summoner), maneuvers may remain useful to you.

I would stick with trip or grapple, since you can get those as free attempts with your attack routine through cheap evolutions. Push and Pull are also options, but I don't think they're nearly as useful. Feel free to get them too, though. Note that tripping requires a bite attack, so you may want to shelve that if focusing on grapple.

...Because then you want nothing but pincers. Any other natural weapon ruins the build. Go biped, since it is the only one that can swap out its initial natural attacks. Take no other weapon but Pincers, Grab, reach (one pincer is enough; it's just ot extend threatened range), Improved Damage, and size and str boosts, maybe flight...

If all your natural weapons are the same kind, they are ALL primary, even if they would normally be secondary, by the PF monster rules. That's the main trick here. Pincers normally suck b/c theyre 2ndary. As primary, you're enjoying a sizeable grapple bonus and free grab attempt with each hit.

As far as grappling with multiple limbs... the old 3E rule of taking -20 to not count as grappled yourself might still apply. I will note that, while on subsequent turns if you lack the action to maintain the grapple your foe will become free again, I see nothing stopping you from grappling a different foe with each limb for the initial grapple. So you can just grab everyone around you. You just won't be able to hold them all next turn (might be better to not maintain any, full attack again to grab them all again, and never bother going for a pin or the like, just spamming the "you're grappled for 1 round" deal over and over). Being grappled does not preclude you from attacking other creatures as it did in 3E, you grapple with each hit thanks to Grab, and by virtue of all the arms, you have free "hands" to continue grabbing more people with.
Should work just fine.

[sepchan]

The following assumes there are other melee focused characters in the party.

While not really a Combat Maneuver, one tactic for the Synthesist is to pair Combat Patrol with the Reach and Pull Evolutions. If i were to add in a Maneuver it would be Reposition as you are getting the first 5' for free. This helps keeps people from rushing the casters or escaping. Although, using natural weapons the Rpositioning Strike will not trigger that often even with improved critical. Add in the Trip Evolution if using a bite attack, this is easier than the required Feats and allows for the use of Repositioning Strike

I found the last part I put in bold a little confusing. Is it indicating that the Trip evolution allows you to qualify for the Repositioning Strike feat?

[StreamOfTheSky]

Umm...I think he's trying to apply the transitive property to the trip evolution, which I don't think actually applies in this case.

The basics of the argument are confusing, because paizo made them so. It stems from this FAQ (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9nvd) which allowed tripping with any weapon. Which itself stemmed from this blog post (http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5lcom) which stated such (which at the time of posting blatantly contradicted the RAW, thus the FAQ being needed to "clear things up").

That same blog post also had this tidbit which seems to have been forgotten by d20pfsrd and other rules sites:

There is a special exception to the above rules. If you’re using a weapon with the trip special feature, and you’re attempting a drag or reposition combat maneuver (Advanced Player’s Guide 321–322), you may apply the weapon’s bonuses to the roll because trip weapons are also suitable for dragging and repositioning (this also means we don’t have to add “drag” and “reposition” weapon properties to existing weapons).

Since the part of the blog about tripping with non-trip weapons was apparently "RAW" (it managed to over-rule the core freaking rule book! no small task!), presumably this part is also "RAW." And thus, any weapon with the trip property also lets you use it for reposition and drag.

Yes, this is how paizo actually handles errata and rules changes. Lovely, isn't it? :smallannoyed:

What I think is the hole in Certified's logic is that the trip weapon property, both before and after the FAQ/blog, is not the same thing as the Trip monster special attack. So "a=b and b=c, thus a=c" does not apply here.

At least, I assume that was his train of thought.

[Certified]

To clarify one cannot use the Repositioning Strike with tripping Strike Feat at the same time. However, having the Trip Evolution with Repositioning Strike is Fair game as far as I can see. Stacking this with the Reach and Pull Evolutions the character should be rather adept at putting people on their backs and dragging them around for other party members.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Sounds feat-heavy.

I did notice in looking over the rules for grapple that one of the options for winning a grapple check after already having someone grappled is Move.


You can move both yourself and your target up to half your speed. At the end of your movement, you can place your target in any square adjacent to you. If you attempt to place your foe in a hazardous location, such as in a wall of fire or over a pit, the target receives a free attempt to break your grapple with a +4 bonus.

Combined w/ the fact that the initial grapple check moves the target adjacent to you...

If you successfully grapple a creature that is not adjacent to you, move that creature to an adjacent open space (if no space is available, your grapple fails).

...I think focusing on grapple alone, you could effectively replicate the drag/pull and reposition maneuvers.

[sepchan]

Alright I have a couple more questions

Question 1
(A) Is the Grab ability/evolution interchangeable with the Improved Grapple Feat for prerequisites?
(B) If Yes, Does the bonus from the Improved Grapple feat stack with the bonus from Grab if you have both?

Question 2
Does a Natural Attack qualify for things with Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite?

ie. Could I qualify for the Greater Grapple feat as a Synthesist with the Grab evolution tied to a natural attack?

[StreamOfTheSky]

No to both.