Metamagic for no save?

[Lhurgyof]

I remember there being a metamagic feat that allowed the target no save against a spell for like +4 spell level. Can any of you fine folks direct me where to find it?

[Silva Stormrage]

The feat is irresistible spell but I am not sure what book it is from. Also I believe it was errated to be just +10 to the DC. Still good but no longer broken.

[SamBurke]

The feat is irresistible spell but I am not sure what book it is from. Also I believe it was errated to be just +10 to the DC. Still good but no longer broken.

+10 is horribly high...

[Flickerdart]

It's from the infamously bad 3rd party Kingdom of Kalamar.

[Silva Stormrage]

It's from the infamously bad 3rd party Kingdom of Kalamar.

Oh it is third party? I always thought it was from an actual official sourcebook. Well I guess that makes a decent amount of sense. :smalltongue:

[Fouredged Sword]

The general rule in 3.5 is that all effects ether require an attack roll or can be resisted with a save. Some things can be avoided with both. Very few things ignore this general rule, and a special because of it.

[DarkSonic1337]

It's from the infamously bad 3rd party Kingdom of Kalamar.

Well, a couple of Kingdom of Kalamar books are cosigned by WotC actually. Check to see if the official logo is at the top of the book (they had some kind of license thing going on with WotC that lasted until 2005 or so)

[Story]

You can also remove the save from certain effects via Spellwarp Sniper but it is difficult to get into without losing spellcaster levels.

[Big Fau]

Very few things ignore this general rule, and a special because of it.

Most offensive spells that do not offer a saving throw or require an attack roll typically allow spell resistance. The handful that don't usually have ridiculously short durations.

[Slipperychicken]

+10 is horribly high...

It's a horrible effect, especially when save-or-lose just becomes lose.

It would be like making attack rolls automatically hit. It would completely bypass one of the only defenses against spells, making it far too overpowered to be reasonably allowed in a game.

[Story]

You mean like a Quickened True Strike? Admittedly, the metamagic is much more abusable, but it is 3rd party (I think at least, the official status of some of their stuff isn't clear).

[Kristinn]

As a DM I would never allow a splatbook metamagic feat that increases save DC by 10 for a +4 spell level. That is why Heighten Spell is there, to increase save DC of low level spell, but on a +1 DC per +1 spell level basis.

[Slipperychicken]

You mean like a Quickened True Strike? Admittedly, the metamagic is much more abusable, but it is 3rd party (I think at least, the official status of some of their stuff isn't clear).

Even a True Striking attack has a chance to fail, and True Strike is quite unbalanced as it is. Allowing most spells to completely bypasses saves allows them to not have a reasonable chance to fail, and thus not be anywhere close to balance.

[Scow2]

As a DM I would never allow a splatbook metamagic feat that increases save DC by 10 for a +4 spell level. That is why Heighten Spell is there, to increase save DC of low level spell, but on a +1 DC per +1 spell level basis.There are very few spells that would be worth +4 levels even without a save.

Heighten Spell is inefficient simply for raising DCs, but having a higher actual level also has the benefit of allowing the spell to hinder things like Spell Turning, and bypass Globes of Invulnerability.

And a save still passes on a Nat 20, so there's always a chance of the save being made.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

It's from the Kingdoms of Kalamar Player's Guide (http://www.amazon.com/Players-Guide-Rulebook-Dungeons-Kingdoms/dp/1889182613/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1366515663&sr=8-1), which contains the official D&D logo on the cover. This makes it more official than Dragonlance for any D&D game that's not in the Dragonlance setting, as those books only bear my d20 logo. Yet Dragonlance is widely considered acceptable, whereas Kalamar is not, even though it's an official D&D source.

[TypoNinja]

Well, a couple of Kingdom of Kalamar books are cosigned by WotC actually. Check to see if the official logo is at the top of the book (they had some kind of license thing going on with WotC that lasted until 2005 or so)

Some quick googleing shows that quite a bit has the D&D logo right on the cover, opinion aside, they are official.

[Slipperychicken]

There are very few spells that would be worth +4 levels even without a save.


Like half the Enchantment school? Hideous Laughter and Hold Person stand out as massive game-breakers. 5th level no-save round/level complete action denial is brutal, and when you break out the Rod of Chain Spell, you're basically one-shotting most encounters with no chance to fail.

Removing the saving throws from Dominate Person, even as a 9th level spell, is absurdly powerful since many characters wouldn't have a chance to resist it.

[Scow2]

Removing the saving throws from Dominate Person, even as a 9th level spell, is absurdly powerful since many characters wouldn't have a chance to resist it.Enchantment spells are easy to break, even without a save. Low-level save-or-sucks generally don't scale or are completely neutralized at higher levels. Dominate Person is a joke, since a single 1st-level spell can shut it down completely, save or no.

[Lhurgyof]

Damn, can't believe it's official.

Well, I'll have to throw that onto the list of "broken and stupid".

Thanks guys.

[Jack_Simth]

The general rule in 3.5 is that all effects ether require an attack roll or can be resisted with a save. Some things can be avoided with both. Very few things ignore this general rule, and a special because of it.
... and most of those either don't affect people directly (such as Wall of Stone or Solid Fog), have a rather low effect (such as Magic Missile), and/or mostly just inconvenience people (such as Maze).

There is at least one no-save, no-sr, no attack roll spell that I know of that doesn't just do interesting things to the terrain - Hail of stone, deals 1d4 untyped damage per level to a five foot square, has a small expensive material component, and caps at 5d4 damage (it's also a 1st level spell with a 1-round casting time).

[Story]

Even a True Striking attack has a chance to fail, and True Strike is quite unbalanced as it is. Allowing most spells to completely bypasses saves allows them to not have a reasonable chance to fail, and thus not be anywhere close to balance.

+10 to save DCs gives the exact same chance of failure (or worse, since it's not you making the roll, so you can't apply rerolls easily).


... and most of those either don't affect people directly (such as Wall of Stone or Solid Fog), have a rather low effect (such as Magic Missile), and/or mostly just inconvenience people (such as Maze).

There is at least one no-save, no-sr, no attack roll spell that I know of that doesn't just do interesting things to the terrain - Hail of stone, deals 1d4 untyped damage per level to a five foot square, has a small expensive material component, and caps at 5d4 damage (it's also a 1st level spell with a 1-round casting time).

Hail of Stone also has the nice features of being an instantaneous conjuration (so it works in AMFs) and an AOE (so it negates Spell Turning and the like). It's pretty much "Rocks Fall, Everyone Gets Hurt, Guaranteed". Unfortunately, even with lots of metamagic cheese, it still maxes out around 40 damage.

[Seer_of_Heart]

Hail of Stone also has the nice features of being an instantaneous conjuration (so it works in AMFs) and an AOE (so it negates Spell Turning and the like). It's pretty much "Rocks Fall, Everyone Gets Hurt, Guaranteed". Unfortunately, even with lots of metamagic cheese, it still maxes out around 40 damage.

Reserves of strength? :smallbiggrin:

[Story]

I was already taking that into account, but it's still only 8d4 (32 + 8d4/2 after maximizing and empowering). You can add a Fell Drain for 5 more damage if the target isn't death immune.

Also, isn't Reserves of Strength technically 3rd party? What a shame, since it's such a useful feat.

[Seer_of_Heart]

I was already taking that into account, but it's still only 8d4 (32 + 8d4/2 after maximizing and empowering). You can add a Fell Drain for 5 more damage if the target isn't death immune.

Also, isn't Reserves of Strength technically 3rd party? What a shame, since it's such a useful feat.

The dragonlance campaign setting is a first party book. And AFAIK that feat comes from there. However, the other dragonlance books are third party although I'm pretty sure they worked with WOTC on those books.