Vivisectionist help

[about50heavies]

What are good discoveries/feats/items for a vivisectionist alchemist?

Lvl 5

[StreamOfTheSky]

Are you going str-based, or dex-based w/ Agile enhancement / Amulet of Mighty Fists?

I'll assume str-based.

Good Discoveries:
- Vestigial Arms and/or Tentacle. Even if you don't use them for more attacks. My tentacle carries my darkwood heavy shield, for example.
- Tumor Familiar. Familiars are awesome.
- Feral Mutagen
- Greater and Grand Mutagen
- Extend Potion (I use it w/ my Alch. Allocation'd CL 20 Greater Magic Fang potions so they last 40 hours)
- Eternal Potion (great with Acute Senses)
- Wings (even if you go beastmorph, good as a backup flight option)
- Combine Extracts
- Preserve Organs + Mummification, if the 30 day ritual won't take too many sessions

Feats: Depends on what you want to do. There's Finesse + Piranha Strike* for dex-based; Power Attack* for str-based. The Sap Adept/Master chain w/ Enforcer and Bludgeoner feats is an option... TWF tree perhaps...
*Mostly for when you can't sneak attack, unless the attack reduction doesn't affect your to hit chances w/ sneak attack

Items: The "big six" items (stat boosts, cloak of resist, AC boosts, etc...); Ult. Equip. alchemist versions of pearls of power; Quick runner's shirt...
High CL potions to use with Alchemical Allocation:
CL 20 Potion of GMF
CL 12+ Potion of Barkskin
Elixer of Shadewalking
Elixer of Tumbling
Elixer of Hiding
Elixer of Vision
CL 11+ Potion of Resist Energy
Potion of Stoneskin (made by summoner)
Potion of Greater Invis (made by summoner)

[about50heavies]

What about alchemical simulcrum

[StreamOfTheSky]

It costs double what the actual spell does and comes later than the spell, me no-likey. Ditto for the zombies.

[about50heavies]

For the sap adept/master/ enforcer group of feats how much nonlethal damage can be dealt min/max also what about the parasectic twin discovery

[StreamOfTheSky]

Parasitic Twin sounds really badass, but the mechanical effect is just a 1/day Slippery Mind w/ a more limited set of attacks it protects against. It also sickens you and makes you lose the use of your extra arms.

It's ok, but there's like a dozen discoveries I'd take before it...

For the Sap Master build... you'd have a max of 20d6 +40 nonlethal sneak attack damage at level 20. Plus your weapon, str mod, enhancement, etc...

20d6 +40 averages 110 damage.

[about50heavies]

Have you found sap adept worth it

[StreamOfTheSky]

I have not used it myself. I am playing a Viv right now, but he is my first sneak attacking PF character since Ultimate Combat came out, and the game he is in has like half of the enemies undead and another like 25% constructs (main enemies are a vampire council that uses constructs, airships, and warforged), so Sap Adept/Master would be rather impractical for him. He also doesn't really need the damage help that much.

The main thing to look out for with Sap Master (not adept) is that the foe must be flatfooted, not merely denied dex to AC. Making someone flatfooted post-round 1 is actually pretty hard to do. Not many options. I said Enforcer in the build because the one sure-fire route is Shatter Defenses, that makes shaken foes flatfooted to your attacks. With all the other feats, this is insanely feat-heavy to pursue, however. If you have an ally willing to take 2 rogue levels to help you out, there is also the Distracting Attack rogue talent. Anytime the rogue melee sneak attacks someone, he is flatfooted to other people for 1 round (but not the rogue, so it is only beneficial to another rogue type).

[Ravens_cry]

The vivisectionist has this easier than a rogue as they get Greater Invisibility as one of their extracts. Sure, a lot of things can see invisible, but a lot of things can't.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Being invisible makes foes lose dex to AC, it does not make them flatfooted, though.

[Ravens_cry]

Being invisible makes foes lose dex to AC, it does not make them flatfooted, though.
Really? Whoa, my bad. Just what does?

[StreamOfTheSky]

Only effects/attacks that specifically say they make a foe flatfooted. Which are very rare. Feinting, the loss of dex to AC from running and climbing, and many other things only make a foe lose dex to AC, they do not give the flatfooted condition.

I do not know of all the ways to make someone flatfooted in PF, the two I mentioned are probably the easiest and most common methods.

It is also worth noting that in PF, Uncanny Dodge explicitly gives outright immunity to the flatfooted condition.


Starting at 4th level, a rogue can react to danger before her senses would normally allow her to do so. She cannot be caught flat-footed, nor does she lose her Dex bonus to AC if the attacker is invisible. She still loses her Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. A rogue with this ability can still lose her Dexterity bonus to AC if an opponent successfully uses the feint action (see Combat) against her.

Compared to 3E, where the technical, RAW definition of UD caused you to not lose dex to AC, but *still* count as flatfooted (Rogue can't sneak attack if foe is neither flanked nor lost dex to AC, but lots of other things like the Iaijutsu Focus skill merely cared if the foe was flatfooted, not if he was actually losing his dex to AC).


Starting at 4th level, a rogue can react to danger before her senses would normally allow her to do so. She retains her Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if she is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, she still loses her Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized.
See how it says she retains dex to AC "even if she is caught flatfooted"? As in, she is still actually flatfooted. This is one of those tiny little rules changes between PF and 3E that often go unnoticed. Though, in this case, it's probably because most people were misinterpretting the 3E rule all along (I sure was for many years!).

The additional note about invisible attackers is actually there BECAUSE invisible doesn't make the defender flatfooted. I always used to think invisible did (I still think it *should*) and that the part in UD about invisible attackers was just extraneous redundant text until years later someone pointed out to me that invis =/= flatfooted.

[about50heavies]

Any spells that are omg must get

[StreamOfTheSky]

If you're going str-based (or maybe even if not), whichever Monstrous Physique extract allows you to become a Calikang (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/monstrous-humanoids/calikang) is pretty incredible. IIRC, it's Monstrous Phys. II.

Six arms, all with primary slam attacks! And you'd still have any vesitigial arms or tentacle, too, to hold a shield or use a manufactured weapon with (though that'd make the slams 2ndary).

Greater Invis is an obvious get. As is Enlarge Person if going str-based. Allchemical Allocation is arguably the Alchemist's best class feature. Strong high level picks are Fluid Form (one of the very very few early entry spells an Alchemist gets) and Twin Form.

Absorb Toxicity has an interesting function wherein if you never use it to deliver a poison to someone, you basically just have poison immunity for the spell's duration. Poison immunity is rarer in PF (hero's feast no longer gives it), and you may well be forfeiting the alchemist's poison immunity for beastmorph (I suggest doing so).

The Undead Anatomy spell is available at spell level 3 and offers you claw and bite attacks, if you should take feats or such that buff them (Imp. Natural Attack [claws], for example) and are relying on Feral Mutagen for the claws and bite, so you have a fallback plan when not under a mutagen's effects.