Lowest possible level: Wizard Vs Fighter (or Monk)

[Arcanist]

High Optimization, RAW, Core only and all that jazz.

I can't recall, but I believe the lowest possible level was at 1 using Color Spray or the like. Is this correct? Assuming that they have appropriate WBL.

[Silva Stormrage]

Pretty much level 1. A that level the person who wins init often wins. If the wizard can hit the fighter with Color spray than the fighter dies. But often the wizard will die in one hit.

Of course the wizard has the edge with init, nerveskitter, hummingbird familiar, trading out scribe scroll for improved init.

Also the wizard has defense if he has abrupt jaunt.

The fighter CAN conceivably win, but its unlikely. Also this is assuming the wizard doesn't use fell draining sonic snap build that deals 1 negative level no save.

[Khedrac]

Actually all the fighter needs to do at level 1 is start more than 50' away. Glittterdust[I]Color Spray/I] is a 15' cone so it the wizard cannot move and cast to get the fighter he then dies to a one hit charge or ranged attack.
Sleep has a nice range - and a 1 round casting time making it a "please hit me" flag if you start casting, same as a summon.

The 50' is based on a 30' move, increase as required, but you are unlikely to need enough to cause a longbow problems.

Edit: thanks to Arcanist for pointing out my silly mental short circuit mistake.

[Arcanist]

Actually all the fighter needs to do at level 1 is start more than 50' away. Glittterdust Color Spray is a 15' cone so it the wizard cannot move and cast to get the fighter he then dies to a one hit charge or ranged attack.

Immediate Magic- Abrubt Jaunt towards the Fighter for 10 ft, Move 30ft (now 40ft within range), cast Color Spray as a Standard action towards the target.

Alternative: Trade Color Spray with Metamagic School Focus Fell Drain Sonic Snap/Ray of Frost would make it so that you only need to move the 30ft.

Human: Spell Focus (Evocation)
1st: Metamagic School Focus


Sleep has a nice range - and a 1 round casting time making it a "please hit me" flag if you start casting, same as a summon.

Rapid Summoning to cast a Summon spell as a Standard action.


The 50' is based on a 30' move, increase as required, but you are unlikely to need enough to cause a longbow problems.

What problem? :smallconfused:


Pretty much level 1. A that level the person who wins init often wins. If the wizard can hit the fighter with Color spray than the fighter dies. But often the wizard will die in one hit.

Quite right. I understand that at 1st level, to say that it is Rocket Tag is an understatement.


Of course the wizard has the edge with init, nerveskitter, hummingbird familiar, trading out scribe scroll for improved init.

How is the Wizard retaining superiority in such Circumstances that Khedrac mentioned (ignoring what I said)?


The fighter CAN conceivably win, but its unlikely. Also this is assuming the wizard doesn't use fell draining sonic snap build that deals 1 negative level no save.

Love that combo :smallwink:

At which point can a Fighter conceivably defeat a Wizard without going to the point of "No spells" or is that the only way?

[Artillery]

Pretty much level 1. A that level the person who wins init often wins. If the wizard can hit the fighter with Color spray than the fighter dies. But often the wizard will die in one hit.

Of course the wizard has the edge with init, nerveskitter, hummingbird familiar, trading out scribe scroll for improved init.

Also the wizard has defense if he has abrupt jaunt.

The fighter CAN conceivably win, but its unlikely. Also this is assuming the wizard doesn't use fell draining sonic snap build that deals 1 negative level no save.

Now note OP said this is core only. So no Nerveskitter(Spell Compendium), no hummingbird familiar (Dragon Magazine), no trading Scribe Scroll (Combat Wizard from UA), or Abrupt Jaunt (PHII).

Its a case of engage opponent from 200-ish ft. Taking the -2 to hit from range increments. Chances of success for the fighter are high for that approach. If we have other books, then a Ranger with Favored Enemy (Archanist) and a Composite Longbow will cause a bad day. 1d8+4 dmg at lvl 1 and isn't a bad start for real builds.

[Eldariel]

Now note OP said this is core only. So no Nerveskitter(Spell Compendium), no hummingbird familiar (Dragon Magazine), no trading Scribe Scroll (Combat Wizard from UA), or Abrupt Jaunt (PHII).

Its a case of engage opponent from 200-ish ft. Taking the -2 to hit from range increments. Chances of success for the fighter are high for that approach. If we have other books, then a Ranger with Favored Enemy (Archanist) and a Composite Longbow will cause a bad day. 1d8+4 dmg at lvl 1 and isn't a bad start for real builds.

Composite Longbow tends to be too expensive level 1; Longbow is affordable but a large chunk of gold. But yeah, in long ranges Longbow is pretty good. It's unlikely to one-shot the Wizard but it'll kill him in about ~4 turns (hits maybe 55% of the time, need average two hits to drop a 12-14 Con Wizard into unconsciousness).

Sleep probably trumps the Fighter at ~100' range since the Fighter is incredibly unlikely to one-shot the Wizard while Sleep is very likely to one-shot non-elf Fighter.


Charge is trumped by readied action so winning initiative, ranged combat or making a Will-save (DC 15+) are the Fighter's only options.

It should favor the Wizard but the Fighter can certainly win; level 1 is very rocket taggy.

[Khedrac]

Immediate Magic- Abrupt Jaunt towards the Fighter for 10 ft, Move 30ft (now 40ft within range), cast Color Spray as a Standard action towards the target.
OK then start 70' or 80' apart as a safety margin.


Sleep probably trumps the Fighter at ~100' range since the Fighter is incredibly unlikely to one-shot the Wizard while Sleep is very likely to one-shot non-elf Fighter.
And how likely is the wizard to actually make his concentration check for being damaged while casting? At level 1 he's got a good chance of failing even if feat boosted (and most people are using feats for other things).

And thanks to Arcanist for correcting my weird brain fart mistake of Glitterdust for Color Spray.

I am currently running a level 2 Beguiler (just leveled) so Color Spray is my go-to spell, but I have to be very careful how I use it if I don't want a made save my an enemy to kill me.

[Eldariel]

And how likely is the wizard to actually make his concentration check for being damaged while casting? At level 1 he's got a good chance of failing even if feat boosted (and most people are using feats for other things).

And thanks to Arcanist for correcting my weird brain fart mistake of Glitterdust for Color Spray.

Well, the Fighter will hit about half the time. The Concentration will be +5-+6 vs. the average damage of 4.5 so DC 15-16. 50%, a bit over probably. Basically, the Fighter has the same chance of hitting as the Wizard has to Concentrate, more or less. So about 25% of the time the spell fails (Fighter hits and then Wizard fails the check).

[Amphetryon]

And how likely is the wizard to actually make his concentration check for being damaged while casting? At level 1 he's got a good chance of failing even if feat boosted (and most people are using feats for other things).

And thanks to Arcanist for correcting my weird brain fart mistake of Glitterdust for Color Spray.

How is the Fighter damaging the Wizard while he's casting a Standard Action spell (Color Spray), having won Initiative? The Sleep solution is for 100' apart starting distances, where the Fighter's chance of hitting the Wizard is good but hardly assured, and not appreciably better at level 1 than the Wizard's chance to make a Concentration check.

[Kazyan]

Bored now. New question: Wizard X vs. Fighter ∞; how large does X need to be?

[Story]

Does that infinity mean it has infinite stats as well? Because that will make things very difficult. Best bet would probably be spamming Save or Dies until it rolls a nat 1.

Also, how would you handle WBL?

[Kazyan]

Yes, Infinifighter is arbitrarily powerful in all of the numbers that go up with level.

WBL: Nothing that takes him out of his role, but he may have a Ring of Protection +NOPE, a +YouDie greatword of wizard-murderizing, whatever. Cloak of Flying and the necesary high-level immunities e.g. True Seeing, though.

[molten_dragon]

Yes, Infinifighter is arbitrarily powerful in all of the numbers that go up with level.

WBL: Nothing that takes him out of his role, but he may have a Ring of Protection +NOPE, a +YouDie greatword of wizard-murderizing, whatever. Cloak of Flying and the necesary high-level immunities e.g. True Seeing, though.

Okay, we can assume that infinifighter always hits except on a 1, and a single hit will kill the wizard. He will also always go first, since ∞ dex means +∞ to initiative. ∞ wealth by level also means that infinifighter will have fun toys like a belt of battle (or white raven tactics, or something else that lets him take extra actions).

So I would say the wizard needs to be 11th level bare minimum, so he has access to some sort of contingency, since celerity or wings of cover can only be used 1/round.

[Venusaur]

Greater Celerity + Sudden Quicken Disjunction plus Forcecage leaves Infinifighter fairly defenseless. A theoretical Infinimonk is actually way stronger because of SR.

Also, from a Wizard 20 vs. Monk 1000 thread


Nope, escape artist's epic usage says a medium creatures can get through a 2 inch hole, not break any sort of enclosure. Escape artist has no provisions for breaking anything; you slip out of manacles and through openings, you don't burst them.

WBL is in play? Forget flashflood, the wizard casts blizzard (obtained via arcane disciple or a scroll), then whips out a pair of control ice and snow wands (easily affordable with WBL), and using dual wand wielding generates hundreds of feet of snow, while remaining on top of it as the monk quickly gets stuck beneath it (forcecage). A sudden empowered frostfell freezes the snow and encases the monk in a 300 foot cube of ice. Encumbrances of AMF are gone thanks to a weirdstone (PGTF), which stops any sort of teleportation or etherealness by the monk. Expensive, but effective, and it specifically says it can be made by a 20th level character. But if you want to be a cheapskate you can cast a shaped AMF and polymorph into something that would have no problem being nearby the struggling monk. Weirdstone gets around ridiculous interpretations of IHS ending AMFs, though.

What's the DC to break through 150 feet of ice that has hundreds more feet of snow on top of it (we're constrained by frostfell only freezing 300 feet)? Let's say 6 inches of wood (break DC of 20) is equivalent to 2 feet of ice. We're outside the scope of the rules, but let's assume, therefore, that breaking a foot of wood or 4 feet of ice would be a DC 40. 150 feet of ice would therefore be DC 1,500.

Assuming you spent every single epic feat and stat bump to increase your strength you're going to be at 600~. So maybe you're hitting 350 on your strength check? I don't think there's a reasonable way you could thumb sketch the DC in such a way that 350 gets you out. If you can't make the DC, you can't burst out, and you either suffocate or die from cold damage within 3 hours.

Meanwhile the wizard is torn with indecision. He's bored, but he doesn't want to leave his weirdstone there for a few hours while the monk freezes/suffocates. What does he do to kill the time?

To recap the sequence, assuming 15 rounds with a celerity giving you a sudden maximized time stop:
1: Dazed
2: Quickened resist energy (it's gonna get cold!) and forcecage (bars)
3: Blizzard, quickened fly (to stay above all the snow).
4: Pull a weirdstone out of your bag of holding or do a shaped AMF and quickened polymorph. Fly and resist energy aren't necessary if you use poly/AMF.
5-14: Use wands to generate enough snow to encase the victim in a 300' of ice with sudden empowered frostfell. You've got enough time for several casting of frostfell if you want more ice, and have the spells prepared, or scrolls.
15: Start to build a snowman while you wait for the monk to die.

edit: forgot celerity makes you dazed

[molten_dragon]

Greater Celerity + Sudden Quicken Disjunction plus Forcecage leaves Infinifighter fairly defenseless.

Well the disjunction isn't going to do much. Items get a will save, at the possessor's bonus if it's higher. Inifinifighter's will save bonus will be +∞, so he's only going to lose 1 in 20 items on average. And with infinite wealth by level, he can always just have 12 backups of every item in case one critical one does get disjoined.

Forcecage won't do much either, since a DC120 escape artist check (easily made) will let him get out of it.

As far as the stuff from the wizard 20 vs. monk 1000 thread, that isn't really going to work either, since the infinifighter can easily hit whatever the DC to break out is, can't die from hit point damage, and will never suffocate due to CON ∞.

[Flickerdart]

The problem with the whole "fighter 1 at 200ft with longbow" plan is that he takes a -20 penalty to Spot, which is not a class skill, to locate the wizard. Unless he scores a natural 20 and the wizard isn't trying to hide at all (DC 0), he cannot see him.

[Dragonsoul]

The catch I've always seen is that the Wizard always "Goes second" , as in the fighter poses a Senario and then the Wizard counters it..since they are adaptable, they generally can..so a suggestion, for a change of pace, the /wizard/ has to pose a build and the fighter can combat it.

[ericgrau]

I did this once in core and the wizard lost about 70% to 30% IIRC. Even starting at a moderate range. Because a 10 AC meant that the sword was more reliable than the spell. Other factors included that dwarves got a +2 to saves and the +2 to hit from charging and/or rage. Non-core ways to boost your initiative, abrupt jaunt and so on could help though.

[Slipperychicken]

The problem with the whole "fighter 1 at 200ft with longbow" plan is that he takes a -20 penalty to Spot, which is not a class skill, to locate the wizard. Unless he scores a natural 20 and the wizard isn't trying to hide at all (DC 0), he cannot see him.

Also, actual games rarely have encounters start from more than 60ft away, because of real life constraints (effort, table space, grid size) on the size of the combat map, in addition to environmental constraints (urban and dungeon areas often have much lower encounter ranges).

[Eldariel]

I did this once in core and the wizard lost about 70% to 30% IIRC. Even starting at a moderate range. Because a 10 AC meant that the sword was more reliable than the spell. Other factors included that dwarves got a +2 to saves and the +2 to hit from charging and/or rage. Non-core ways to boost your initiative, abrupt jaunt and so on could help though.

Isn't that AC a bit of a misnomer though; should be at least 13, right? If it's a 32pb Dwarf Fighter with 18/14/14/8/12/8, shouldn't it at least be Gray Elf Wizard with 6/16/12/20/10/10 (or I guess, 6/16/14/20/8/8 or 6/18/12/20/8/8) too?

[Yogibear41]

Does that infinity mean it has infinite stats as well? Because that will make things very difficult. Best bet would probably be spamming Save or Dies until it rolls a nat 1.

Also, how would you handle WBL?

What infinite level fighter wouldn't have steadfast determination :smallsmile:

[Emmerask]

Greater Celerity + Sudden Quicken Disjunction plus Forcecage leaves Infinifighter fairly defenseless. A theoretical Infinimonk is actually way stronger because of SR.

Also, from a Wizard 20 vs. Monk 1000 thread

Actually the infinity fighter can just casually walk out of the force cage he can escape artist (epic usage) out of it with his infinite skill in it (dc is 120)
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#escapeArtist

/edit damn was already mentioned

He can also walk on any surface (which at a high enough dc would include air) so he can practically fly ^^

And he is actually immune to any illusions (dc 80) spot

He can also force none saving throw mind effecting spells to have a saving throw with autohypnosis (which he auto succeeds)

And of course you have infinite diplomacy which means... you have a new follower.

Infinity Fighter has actually quite some interesting options :smallbiggrin:


Bored now. New question: Wizard X vs. Fighter ∞; how large does X need to be?


Overall I think that against infinity fighter X must be infinite - y.
with y < infinite

[TuggyNE]

I'm inclined to think a combination of chain dispel (possibly with Reserves of Strength, definitely with CL- and dispel-boosting feats and items) and undermaster to bury should be quite effective. (Aforementioned weirdstone to block any random teleportation abilities, of course.) The only weak point is that it's not clear whether you can just make an arbitrarily high Str check to break out of any physical barriers.

Incidentally, while the infinifighter will undoubtedly win initiative, and will also have the skills to gain a surprise round, foresight means celerity gives the Wizard a chance to go first, always.

Now, if the question was Sorcerer X, the answer would be fairly simple: Sanctum Spell + Arcane Thesis + greater arcane fusion for a nice infinite loop of save-or-dies; eventually the Fighter will run out of rerolls and fall apart. Straight-classed Wizard X doesn't get that option without a cheesy interpretation of Extra Spell, though.

[137beth]

wizard 20 vs. monk 1000 thread
Even here, the monk wins:
WBL for level 1000 is 8.75*10^46, enough for an absurd quantity of scrolls and spellcasting items with substantially higher caster level than the wizard for every nonepic spell in the game. Actually, by those levels, exponential WBL ends up trumping everything which isn't epic spells. Really, a monk 1000 could afford single items more powerful than everything a level 100 druid/wizard could do, unless the DM is particularly lenient in the development of epic spells.
EDIT: also, the infinity fighter has the resources to use any nonepic spell with infinite caster level, unlimited times per day, with every metamagic feat attached.

[Emmerask]

Now, if the question was Sorcerer X, the answer would be fairly simple: Sanctum Spell + Arcane Thesis + greater arcane fusion for a nice infinite loop of save-or-dies; eventually the Fighter will run out of rerolls and fall apart. Straight-classed Wizard X doesn't get that option without a cheesy interpretation of Extra Spell, though.

You would still need to put disjunction in there somewhere to get rid of immunity to those save or die spells via items. But since the wielder will saving throw is infinite its not going to work.

[Story]

Now, if the question was Sorcerer X, the answer would be fairly simple: Sanctum Spell + Arcane Thesis + greater arcane fusion for a nice infinite loop of save-or-dies; eventually the Fighter will run out of rerolls and fall apart. Straight-classed Wizard X doesn't get that option without a cheesy interpretation of Extra Spell, though.

There's always Wrym Wizard or Recaster.

[molten_dragon]

Overall I think that against infinity fighter X must be infinite - y.
with y < infinite

Nah, all the wizard really needs to be able to do is reliably survive 2-3 rounds of whatever infinifighter can throw at him (shouldn't be too difficult with wings of cover, celerity, and various contingencies) and then throw some kind of infinite damage loop at him.

[molten_dragon]

You would still need to put disjunction in there somewhere to get rid of immunity to those save or die spells via items. But since the wielder will saving throw is infinite its not going to work.

Actually, if you can spam an infinite number of disjunctions it will. He'll roll a 1 eventually.

[Morcleon]

Could just give the Wizard Irresistible Spell... now the infinifighter doesn't get a save. At all.

Irresistible Disjunction + Irresistible Finger of Death. :smallbiggrin:

[ericgrau]

Isn't that AC a bit of a misnomer though; should be at least 13, right? If it's a 32pb Dwarf Fighter with 18/14/14/8/12/8, shouldn't it at least be Gray Elf Wizard with 6/16/12/20/10/10 (or I guess, 6/16/14/20/8/8 or 6/18/12/20/8/8) too?

Ya it probably was 12 AC. I forget. Same idea and same results regardless. Oh and IIRC the challenge used elite array (15/etc/8), because that's about the average of 4d6b3. It was PHB races so no gray elf. 1 week of prep, no buff round. I might have allowed PC or NPC buffs with a long enough duration but I don't remember and no one used the option anyway.

To clarify in case it wasn't already clear, this was a level 1 challenge.

[137beth]

Nah, all the wizard really needs to be able to do is reliably survive 2-3 rounds of whatever infinifighter can throw at him (shouldn't be too difficult with wings of cover, celerity, and various contingencies) and then throw some kind of infinite damage loop at him.

The fighter can use all of those too, at a higher caster level, due to magic items.

Also, fighter can use (quicked) disjuction on the wizard, then an anti-magic field which the wizard cannot dispel because it is CL infinity. Magic items are nice.

[Verte]

The problem with the whole "fighter 1 at 200ft with longbow" plan is that he takes a -20 penalty to Spot, which is not a class skill, to locate the wizard. Unless he scores a natural 20 and the wizard isn't trying to hide at all (DC 0), he cannot see him.

Eh, it really all depends on the surroundings, since both the wizard and the fighter would need cover or concealment to hide - they couldn't attempt any hide checks on a barren field on a sunny day, so they both would automatically fail. And if the circumstances were such that either could hide, the wizard would also make a spot check at -20, since spot is not a class skill for wizards, either. This means that if both were trying to hide, neither would see each other at 200 ft. However, the wizard could find him by sending out a raven familiar as a scout.

[TuggyNE]

You would still need to put disjunction in there somewhere to get rid of immunity to those save or die spells via items. But since the wielder will saving throw is infinite its not going to work.

I forgot to re-mention the chain dispel or similar, possibly also in a loop. It's actually more efficient than disjunction in this case, because it's a CL check instead of an infinite Will save.


There's always Wrym Wizard or Recaster.

That's why I said "straight-classed". :smalltongue: It's a lot easier with a few PrCs, definitely.


Actually, if you can spam an infinite number of disjunctions it will. He'll roll a 1 eventually.

Right, yeah. Or just a few high-CL chain dispels, since most magic items have low-ish CLs. (Lower than 25, anyway.)

If the CLs on the infinifighter's items are a lot higher than normal, it requires some rather more serious cheese for CL pumping and Reserves of Strength to uncap.


The fighter can use all of those too, at a higher caster level, due to magic items.

Also, fighter can use (quicked) disjuction on the wizard, then an anti-magic field which the wizard cannot dispel because it is CL infinity. Magic items are nice.

So, what, we're assuming the Fighter also has a handy pocket crafter of infinite level? I'm not buying that at all. Custom items, perhaps, even into Epic; custom "infinite-CL infinite-ability-score infinite-metamagic", not even a little.

[molten_dragon]

The fighter can use all of those too, at a higher caster level, due to magic items.

Also, fighter can use (quicked) disjuction on the wizard, then an anti-magic field which the wizard cannot dispel because it is CL infinity. Magic items are nice.

The guy that posed the question explicitly didn't allow that. To paraphrase I think he said something like "no items that take the fighter out of his role". Which I took to mean things like passive protective items (mind blank, death ward, etc.) are okay, as well as items that enhance mobility (wings of flying, any of the various short-range teleport items in MIC), but no buying loads of scrolls and casting like a wizard.

[Emmerask]

I forgot to re-mention the chain dispel or similar, possibly also in a loop. It's actually more efficient than disjunction in this case, because it's a CL check instead of an infinite Will save.


Yep that could work :smallsmile:



So, what, we're assuming the Fighter also has a handy pocket crafter of infinite level? I'm not buying that at all. Custom items, perhaps, even into Epic; custom "infinite-CL infinite-ability-score infinite-metamagic", not even a little.

The question is couldn´t he just craft the items himself?
Craft Magic items afaik requires you to be a spellcaster, however since you have infinite umd you could emulate that "class feature" (not sure if possible).
And then proceed to create any artifact you wish (since you have infinite xp to spend)?

And if he can have artifacts I´m pretty sure dispel magic can´t do anything about them.

[Morcleon]

The question is couldn´t he just craft the items himself?
Craft Magic items afaik requires you to be a spellcaster, however since you have infinite umd you could emulate that "class feature" (not sure if possible).
And then proceed to create any artifact you wish (since you have infinite xp to spend)?

UMD only works for items, hence the name Use Magic Device. :smallwink:

Also, you can't make artifacts by RAW, unless you're a deity.

[TuggyNE]

The question is couldn´t he just craft the items himself?
Craft Magic items afaik requires you to be a spellcaster, however since you have infinite umd you could emulate that "class feature" (not sure if possible).
And then proceed to create any artifact you wish (since you have infinite xp to spend)?

No. UMD does nothing for feats; it only works on magic items of various sorts. Why else do you think Artificers and Warlocks get special exceptions for this very purpose?

Edit: totally celerity'd, because I stopped to double-check the skill description. :smalltongue:

[Emmerask]

Ah okay so that idea is out the window :smallbiggrin:



Also, you can't make artifacts by RAW, unless you're a deity.

What book does this factoid come from (not that I doubt you, just interested)

Deities & Demigods? Or Magic Item Compendium (ie the book I sadly don´t own:-/)

[Scow2]

Ah okay so that idea is out the window :smallbiggrin:



What book does this factoid come from (not that I doubt you, just interested)

Deities & Demigods? Or Magic Item Compendium (ie the book I sadly don´t own:-/)
It's not in any book. In fact, a lot of the Greater artifacts are NOT deity-crafted.

[Morcleon]

What book does this factoid come from (not that I doubt you, just interested)

Deities & Demigods? Or Magic Item Compendium (ie the book I sadly don´t own:-/)

This (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#craftArtifact). :smallsmile:

[TuggyNE]

It's not in any book. In fact, a lot of the Greater artifacts are NOT deity-crafted.

It actually is, as mentioned by Morcleon. Not all artifacts are known to be crafted by deities, but only deities are now capable of crafting new ones.

[Kazyan]

Infinifighter is more a facetious experiment of mine than anything. It's to see if the Wizard's power curve has an asymptote with respect to mundanes, before level 21, at which point the game becomes Magic Tea Party.

[Coidzor]

The question is couldn´t he just craft the items himself?
Craft Magic items afaik requires you to be a spellcaster, however since you have infinite umd you could emulate that "class feature" (not sure if possible).


IIRC, there's a way to use extra spell(Complete Arcane, p. 79) , improved spell capacity(Dungeon Master's Guide v.3.5, p. 210), and magical training (Player's Guide to Faerûn, p. 41) to get spells known and spell slots to be able to qualify for crafting feats and craft things.

Not sure about how he'd increase his caster level, however.

[TuggyNE]

IIRC, there's a way to use extra spell(Complete Arcane, p. 79) , improved spell capacity(Dungeon Master's Guide v.3.5, p. 210), and magical training (Player's Guide to Faerûn, p. 41) to get spells known and spell slots to be able to qualify for crafting feats and craft things.

Not sure about how he'd increase his caster level, however.

Lots and lots of Practiced Spellcaster plus Versatile Spellcaster? Not sure how well he qualifies.

[Flickerdart]

Eh, it really all depends on the surroundings, since both the wizard and the fighter would need cover or concealment to hide - they couldn't attempt any hide checks on a barren field on a sunny day, so they both would automatically fail. And if the circumstances were such that either could hide, the wizard would also make a spot check at -20, since spot is not a class skill for wizards, either. This means that if both were trying to hide, neither would see each other at 200 ft. However, the wizard could find him by sending out a raven familiar as a scout.
The hide check isn't the point. An encounter can only start when one party spots the other, and at 200 feet, the fighter cannot see the wizard even without any cover. That's kind of the point.

[Venger]

Could just give the Wizard Irresistible Spell... now the infinifighter doesn't get a save. At all.

Irresistible Disjunction + Irresistible Finger of Death. :smallbiggrin:

irresistible spell (if you're talking about the one from kingdoms of kalamar) doesn't remove the save, it merely boosts it by +10. are you talking about a different one? if so, where is it?

[Pickford]

Well the disjunction isn't going to do much. Items get a will save, at the possessor's bonus if it's higher. Inifinifighter's will save bonus will be +∞, so he's only going to lose 1 in 20 items on average. And with infinite wealth by level, he can always just have 12 backups of every item in case one critical one does get disjoined.

Forcecage won't do much either, since a DC120 escape artist check (easily made) will let him get out of it.

As far as the stuff from the wizard 20 vs. monk 1000 thread, that isn't really going to work either, since the infinifighter can easily hit whatever the DC to break out is, can't die from hit point damage, and will never suffocate due to CON ∞.

You forgot to include: infinity fighter deals infinity damage at 20 range increments (which is way beyond a wizard's max spell range) with no chance of missing (having all luck feats from infinite levels means 1s turn into 20s, always). Also, with infinite levels and infinite dex the Fighter will always go first. Only celerity allows the Wizard to interrupt (so, one chance to not die). I would recommend: Celerity-> Teleport. (Of course, infinity fighter can hire mooks(tm) to teleport him after you...so there's that.

[137beth]

The guy that posed the question explicitly didn't allow that. To paraphrase I think he said something like "no items that take the fighter out of his role". Which I took to mean things like passive protective items (mind blank, death ward, etc.) are okay, as well as items that enhance mobility (wings of flying, any of the various short-range teleport items in MIC), but no buying loads of scrolls and casting like a wizard.

If you are at all familiar with high epic play, you know that almost all advancement and power comes from WBL. Saying that you get unlimited WBL but can't use it on (good) magic items kinda defeats the point of having gold:smallconfused:

[Frozen_Feet]

Infinite Fighter is essentially Pun-Pun. Seriously, there's no point in that exercise. The Wizard can't win. The Wizard can draw if he never enters the plane our Pun-Pun is on in any shape or form; however, this only holds true if our Pun-Pun can't use scrolls etc. If you allow Pun-Pun scrolls, he can do everything the Wizard can, except he's infinitely better at being a Wizard!

Infinite Spot, Listen etc. means Pun-Pun can see, and hit, the Wizard pretty much regardless of where the Wizard is, way before the Wizard even knows he exists. With his infinite Jump and speed, Pun-Pun can jump to another planet and snipe at the Wizard from there if he wants.

[molten_dragon]

If you are at all familiar with high epic play, you know that almost all advancement and power comes from WBL. Saying that you get unlimited WBL but can't use it on (good) magic items kinda defeats the point of having gold:smallconfused:

Yeah, but I didn't ask the question, so I didn't set the rules. Plus if infinifighter could use scrolls there isn't any question, he automatically wins.

Maybe we should define infinifighter better. Here's kind of my assumption about his abilities.

Infinite hit points
Infinite AC
Infinite ability scores
Infinite save bonuses
Infinite bonus to all skills
Infinite to-hit bonus
Hits for infinite damage
Has infinite wealth by level, but only the sorts of items a normal 20th level fighter would be expected to have. Can have as many copies of an item he needs as he wants to protect him from disjunction.
Doesn't carry around scrolls and use them to be a wizard instead of a fighter.
Fights like a fighter, not like a wizard.

[Kazyan]

Infinite Fighter is essentially Pun-Pun. Seriously, there's no point in that exercise. The Wizard can't win. The Wizard can draw if he never enters the plane our Pun-Pun is on in any shape or form; however, this only holds true if our Pun-Pun can't use scrolls etc. If you allow Pun-Pun scrolls, he can do everything the Wizard can, except he's infinitely better at being a Wizard!

Okay, so we've established that. Good.

Now have the number go down to something actually sane. Do we want to retread the Wizard 20 vs. Monk 1000 thread except with Fighter, or just call it off here?

EDIT: I mean, so long as we're unclear on what an infinifighter can have with WBL, anyway.

[Morcleon]

irresistible spell (if you're talking about the one from kingdoms of kalamar) doesn't remove the save, it merely boosts it by +10. are you talking about a different one? if so, where is it?

That's the one. Pre-errata, it completely removes the save.