What Gestalts well with Dragonfire Adept?

[Nettlekid]

As a fun, not-to-be-used-in-a-game-unless-I'm-really-lucky exercise, I want to build my ideal character. A character that if I were to be hurled into the fantasy world of D&D, I would want to be this one. Of course it would be easy to say some kind of Anima Mage Incantatrix, or Erudite 20 and have done, but I want fun over power.

My favorite class by far is the Dragonfire Adept. It's just so cool. It's turning you into a dragon(wannabe). Elemental breath and unlimited use magic effects scream awesome. So I built a simple DFA 20, and that works out well. Dragonborn Mongrelfolk race, so sky-high Con and pretty pitiful Cha. I want him to have wings so I took the Wings aspect, but at some point I would buy the Draconic Graft Metabolic Fire so I could have a breath weapon with recharge time in rounds, so I can take Metabreath feats. That's about the most you can do with a DFA, make it able to swoop in for small damage and battlefield control, and then nuke everything when you're ready for it.

But if I'm going all out with an ideal character, why not Gestalt it? But that raises the question, what to Gestalt? DFAs have good Fort and Will, low Ref, but I'm not too concerned about saves because with Steadfast Determination you get that +14 or so from Con to Fort and Will, and Reflex is never that dangerous by comparison. Low BAB, but I don't see this character as a melee type. For one, the best melee attackers bulk up Power Attack, and I don't have too many feats to spare for Power Attack, Imp Bull Rush, Shock Trooper, Leap Attack, etc. His Str and Dex are near 10, Con great, Int second best (maybe 14 or 16), Wis also near 10, and Cha is down the tubes. I think the best sort of Gestalt would be things to use to buff as opposed to being a source of strength in and of themselves. Also things that offer bonus feats are a plus. To that end, I was looking at Binder, Artificer, and even Truenamer as potential combos. What does the playground think?

[Big Fau]

Pick a class. ANY class.

Despite the class' limited focus, the DFA is possibly one of the easiest classes to gestalt simply because it doesn't care about any of your ability scores other than Con and only requires one feat to be viable (Entangling Exhalation). Hell, you don't even need that to make good use of it's breath weapon.

[thethird]

Binder, totemist/incarnate, dragon shaman...

[NoldorForce]

You could splash Incarnate with DFA. The class claims Wisdom is useful but it's only necessary for pumping soulmeld save DCs (which you can go without) and Perfect Meldshaper's duration (highly situational). Everything else that directly involves an ability score is dependent on Constitution. Same thing applies to the incarnum-boosting feats.

[Amnestic]

I really like Binder and Bard for DFA gestalt. Binder gives you a bunch of assorted tricks and Bard for really strong support.

Main problem with Bard is that Bard and a metabreath DFA are pretty feat intensive. Maybe consider a metabreath DFA+ToB class?

[Nettlekid]

I know DFA is really easy to splash onto something to make it better, but if I want to make DFA the focus and something else the add-on, it's a little tougher. For example, for flavor of the draconic, Sorcerer would be a pretty good choice. But I've tanked Charisma, so I can't. I need something that goes with the set I've already got.

Binder is a definite contender, since it almost doesn't need ANY score so long as you don't mind vestige influences and you stick to abilities/buffs that don't use saving throws. It also offers bonus feats, which is a real plus. Totemist is one that I've heard runs on Con alone, so that's definitely good, but I just don't see where it's that...good. You just get little +4s to this and that, and a couple of abilities that are easily imitated by magic items. On that note, since Soulmelds work best when bound to a Chakra, and that means you can't use a magic item in that slot, I don't want that. And Dragon Shaman I've always found kind of lame compared to the DFA. Too much overlap, not enough cool.

[NoldorForce]

Don't discount what incarnum can do; some of those bonuses can get wild with work. In addition, if you're worried about magic items being blocked by bound soulmelds, don't be. Early on you won't have many items or chakra binds, while later on you can pick up Incarnum Focus items that allow you to use an item in the same slot as a chakra bind. (Check the MIC, I believe it costs 10K to do so.)

[Nettlekid]

It looks like Incarnum Focus items just protect Chakra binds and allow you to invest one more Essentia than normal in their slot, and they allow you to wear THEM in a body slot while having a Soulmeld bound in that slot, but unless you mean that I should just take those and tack on all my other items to them (rather expensive) then it doesn't seem like it would work. At that point, it would be easier just to make my other items slotless.

I still don't understand MoI that well, and nothing in the book strikes me as the sort of "Oh my god, wow, that's incredible!" that you get out of like, say, Balam from the Binder (reroll a d20 once every 5 rounds) or Rebuild Item from the Truenamer (I think it's cool. Shaddup).

[Big Fau]

Incarnum is tricky. You need to read it a few times, then look up the various guides to it (Sinfire's on BG, a few here). It takes effort as a player to make it work, but it makes your characters significantly more useful regardless of Tier.

[Nettlekid]

Hmm, yeah, I still don't really get it. Most of the things just seem too slight. And in any case, the magic item problem is still pretty big. This character likes having a ton of magic items.

As far as Binder goes, what would be good vestiges to bind? He's not a melee type nor does he have high Charisma for the save DCs, so a lot of the vestige powers are rather wasted on him. I know Zceryll is regarded as a powerful vestige, but I don't like the idea of having the Pseudonatural template on this guy. He's proud to be a dragon, and wouldn't want tentacles and pus. The dragon image is one of the reasons I don't want to go Totemist either, because then he'd be covered in non-dragon spiritual forms (like the Basilisk Mask, Phase Cloak or Girallon Arms).

[Snowbluff]

Pretty much anything that has been said.

My answer: Not as many things as Warlock.

[Nettlekid]

Okay, I just DON'T see it. I'm looking through the Totemist Handbook and MoI, and I can't figure out where the good stuff comes from. The magical +80 grapples checks and this-and-that. People remark on the Manticore Belt spines being really good, but they don't seem that strong. Blink Shirt is useful, but nothing that a Swordsage couldn't do and without wasting the rest of their action (as per Dimension Door). There are like three or four soulmelds that grant a claw attack, a couple that do Pounce, but none of those are anything that a THF Barbarian wouldn't be doing better. Which is why I can imagine the Totem Rager is pretty cool, but not straight Totemist.

For brainstorming, what are some roles that party characters play? This character isn't really a melee type, for lack of feats. Skills aren't really suited to the style of "Nuke the enemy, then do something while your breath is recharging." Can't be a caster due to bad ability scores (I guess he has enough Int to cast Fox's Cunning on himself to make it high enough to cast 9ths, but the saves will still be poor. I also don't want to overshadow the DFA with caster).
So of the base classes...
Archivist: Not enough Int, and too castery.
Ardent: Even worse Wis, though I like the flavor.
Artificer: Possible, good for support. Not a Blastificer. But not actiony enough.
Bard: Bad Charisma. No.
Barbarian: I like it, but I don't have the feats to make it strong.
Beguiler: Bad. Charisma.
Binder: Pretty good, but doesn't really add enough to the DFA power.
Cleric: Wisdom problems.
Crusader: A middling warrior, with healing, and good defense. Might work.
Divine Mind: NO.
Dragon Shaman: Too much class overlap.
Dread Necromancer: Bad flavor, and still Charisma problems.
Druid: Bad Wisdom.
Duskblade: Actually could work. Low level spells and moderate melee.
Factotum: My Int's not THAT good, but it could work for skills.
Favored Soul: Charisma.
Fighter: Solves the Feat problem, but it's not that cool or unique.
Healer: Wisdom and flavor.
Hexblade: Nah.
Incarnate: I still don't get how these guys work. But magic item slot issues.
Knight: Too martial. Also must be Lawful (My guy's CN).
Lurk: I just don't see the flavor working.
Marshal: Charisma.
Monk: Just doesn't really add anything. Also very MAD.
Ninja: Similar to Monk, and Sudden Strike is too much effort.
Paladin: No way can the alignment work.
Psion: Too castery, and not enough Int.
Ranger: Maybe, since it gives you feats. Flavor's a bit off, though.
Rogue: Not enough in-battle style, similar to Ninja. Sneak Attack needs focus.
Samurai: Bad Cha for Intimidate.
Scout: Just doesn't seem like a good mix.
Shadowcaster: I don't know much about them, but it doesn't feel right.
Shugenja: Poor mental stats, and too castery.
Sorcerer: I wish, because of the draconic flavor, but Cha.
Soulborn: I've heard these guys suck.
Soulknife: I KNOW these guys suck.
Spellthief: This might work, since they have lower level spells.
Spirit Shaman: Too low Wis.
Swashbuckler: Too martial.
Swordsage: Lots of nice maneuvers, but I don't fight melee well.
Totemist: We've talked about this.
Truenamer: I kind of like it, but all my skills would suffer for the Item Familiar.
Warblade: Similar to Swordsage, the maneuver initiations are too tough.
Warlock: Too much overlap.
Warmage: Nahh.
Wilder: Charisma.
Wizard: Too strong, too unbalanced.
Wu Jen: Similar to Wizard.


I know I'm picky, but I can't decide what I like.

[Ernir]

DFA makes a rather cruddy gestalt in my opinion. It doesn't really require much to work, but it also doesn't particularly synergize with anything either, and it's competing with most things for standard actions.

I'd go Factotum. Not because Factotum is a particularly good combo with DFA, but because Factotum is a good combo with anything.


Beguiler: Bad. Charisma.
Intelligence, actually. Still bad.

[Nettlekid]

Looking through it, Spellthief looks like a pretty good choice. It has better skill ranks and class skills than the DFA, better BAB, and the stealing spells thing is just so cool! It synergizes well with the DFA's Walk Unseen invocation, and I love the very anime image (kind of Dragon Slayer from Fairy Tail) of appearing behind my enemy, cutting into him, and devouring his magical energy. And best of all, I don't need to have a high enough ability score to let me cast the stolen spells! The one downside to it is that it's a Cha-based caster itself (I really thought it would be Int, being so rogue-like) so I wouldn't be able to cast any of its own spells. But that's not too much of a loss, I guess. They only get 3 per day of each, up to 4th level, from a limited list. Is there anything I could trade spells out for?

Edit: Beguiler is Int-based? Seriously? But it's designed to be a charmer! That's so Cha! They should switch Beguiler and Spellthief casting stats.

[Big Fau]

Okay, I just DON'T see it. I'm looking through the Totemist Handbook and MoI, and I can't figure out where the good stuff comes from. The magical +80 grapples checks and this-and-that. People remark on the Manticore Belt spines being really good, but they don't seem that strong. Blink Shirt is useful, but nothing that a Swordsage couldn't do and without wasting the rest of their action (as per Dimension Door). There are like three or four soulmelds that grant a claw attack, a couple that do Pounce, but none of those are anything that a THF Barbarian wouldn't be doing better. Which is why I can imagine the Totem Rager is pretty cool, but not straight Totemist.

The Grapple thing requires stacking two soulmelds and maxing out their essentia capacity. While you are correct about the Swordsage and Barbarian, the Totemist is able to do things they can't. A Swordsage can only teleport up to 3 times (assuming he spent 3 maneuvers known on those teleport maneuvers) before needing to skip a full turn to recover them. The Totemist can attack and teleport away, or take the Sun School feat (or levels in Teflammar Shadowlord) and use the Dimension Door ability offensively.

While the Barbarian can indeed outdamage the Totemist, it's important to note that the Totemist is far and away better out of combat and incredibly more flexible during combat. The Barbarian only has one or two tricks for his entire career, the Totemist can change what tricks he can pull off every day. Don't feel like pouncing? Bind the Basilisk Collar and play denial with your enemies. If that doesn't work, don the Manticore Belt and fly around killing things (as to why it doesn't look like much damage, look at the Totemist's capstone ability). If you need to scout, put on the Phase Cloak and go to town (and generate some random encounters while you are at it).


What the Totemist lacks in power it makes up for in raw versatility. It's really close to the Swordsage's level, possibly even stronger.

[Draz74]

A lot of the hype about Manticore Belt comes from low levels. At levels 2-8, while other archers are using a full round action to fire 2-3 arrows, the Totemist is firing 3-4 "arrows" with a standard action. This is especially awesome if you have access to some good effects that boost the damage of each spine (Dragonfire Inspiration?). At higher levels, the Manticore Belt is OK, but doesn't scale enough to stay amazing, as far as I can see. (With the possible exception of making a comeback at Level 20. But no one plays at Level 20 anyway.)


The Grapple thing requires stacking two soulmelds and maxing out their essentia capacity.

I've always wondered about the Totemist's ostensible huge grapple bonuses too. Aren't both soulmelds that boost grapple ... competence bonuses? If so, how on earth do you force them to stack?

[Nettlekid]

I think I like the look of Spellthief 7/Duskblade 13, with the Master Spellthief feat. That way you get the cool abilities Steal Spell-Like Ability and Absorb Spell, count as a 20th level Spellthief so you can steal 9th level spells, while getting enough Duskblade to have 4th level spells and Full Attack Channeling. Go invisible, stab the enemy Cleric and steal his Harm, and then stab him repeatedly with it. It would also be great for buffing the team. Get a Quarterstaff (that you can TWF with), steal your ally Sorcerer's Superior Resistance or the Cleric's Heal, and Full Attack Channel thwap all your party members with your staff to buff everyone.

[Waddacku]

You'll only be able to actually keep stolen spells of 7th level or lower with that, though you can still remove 9ths from people.

[Draz74]

I think I like the look of Spellthief 7/Duskblade 13, with the Master Spellthief feat. That way you get the cool abilities Steal Spell-Like Ability and Absorb Spell, count as a 20th level Spellthief so you can steal 9th level spells, while getting enough Duskblade to have 4th level spells and Full Attack Channeling. Go invisible, stab the enemy Cleric and steal his Harm, and then stab him repeatedly with it. It would also be great for buffing the team. Get a Quarterstaff (that you can TWF with), steal your ally Sorcerer's Superior Resistance or the Cleric's Heal, and Full Attack Channel thwap all your party members with your staff to buff everyone.

Sounds like a fun character. :smallsmile:

[Nettlekid]

You'll only be able to actually keep stolen spells of 7th level or lower with that, though you can still remove 9ths from people.

Oh, Master Spellthief doesn't add to effective Spellthief level regarding how many spells you can hold onto? Hrmmm...
I guess the next good breakpoint for Spellthief is 13, where you get Discover Spells, but that bumps you down to only 2nd level spells and heavy shield use for Duskblade, no full attack channeling. Hm, is that worth it...?

[Person_Man]

Okay, I just DON'T see it. I'm looking through the Totemist Handbook and MoI, and I can't figure out where the good stuff comes from. The magical +80 grapples checks and this-and-that. People remark on the Manticore Belt spines being really good, but they don't seem that strong. Blink Shirt is useful, but nothing that a Swordsage couldn't do and without wasting the rest of their action (as per Dimension Door). There are like three or four soulmelds that grant a claw attack, a couple that do Pounce, but none of those are anything that a THF Barbarian wouldn't be doing better. Which is why I can imagine the Totem Rager is pretty cool, but not straight Totemist.


Cool things a Totemist can do:

LOTS of natural attacks which are easy to boost and Pounce.
You can easily boost many commonly used Skills by +6 to +10 for minimal effort.
Super Grapple checks via Girillion Arms.
Blink Shirt bound to Totem is at will, move action Dimension Door. Thus you can use a Standard Action, then Dimension Door, EVERY TURN. You never run out of Power Points, and you never have to "refresh" a maneuver. (And you can do it at level 2).
Frost Helm bound to Totem gives you at will area of effect Stun ability. (Remember that enemies also drop their weapons when Stunned).
Gorgon Mask bound tot Totem gives you at will Stone to Flesh. (Only effects 1 enemy and lasts one round, but that's long enough for an ally to Sunder that enemy, so it's basically Save or Lose).
Shadow Mantle bound to Shoulders gives you (weird, poorly worded) continuous Greater Invisibility.
Phase Cloak bound to Shoulders makes you Ethereal when you move. (Avoid AoO, can move through walls, flight, etc).
Shedu Crown bound to Crown gives Telepathy.
Brood Keeper's Heart (Dragon Magazine 350 pg 86) bound to Heart gives you the Swarm template.
Various breath weapon options (weaker then DFA, but useful for most other builds).
Manticore Belt bound to Totem gives you a fairly decent ranged attack.
Many of your coolest abilities kick in at level 1 or 2. This includes various situational things which are very useful at level 1, like Trample, Die Hard, the equivalent of heavy armor, immunity to Flanking,+15 movement speed, Evasion, and most of the natural weapon options.


There's lots of other situational things I'm too lazy to list out here. The point is that it's a very well rounded class (melee, mobilility, ranged attack, area of effect, Save or Lose) and that most of his abilities are passive/always on, which means that it stacks well in Gestalt.

[Nettlekid]

Cool things a Totemist can do:

LOTS of natural attacks which are easy to boost and Pounce.
You can easily boost many commonly used Skills by +6 to +10 for minimal effort.
Super Grapple checks via Girillion Arms.
Blink Shirt bound to Totem is at will, move action Dimension Door. Thus you can use a Standard Action, then Dimension Door, EVERY TURN. You never run out of Power Points, and you never have to "refresh" a maneuver. (And you can do it at level 2).
Frost Helm bound to Totem gives you at will area of effect Stun ability. (Remember that enemies also drop their weapons when Stunned).
Gorgon Mask bound tot Totem gives you at will Stone to Flesh. (Only effects 1 enemy and lasts one round, but that's long enough for an ally to Sunder that enemy, so it's basically Save or Lose).
Shadow Mantle bound to Shoulders gives you (weird, poorly worded) continuous Greater Invisibility.
Phase Cloak bound to Shoulders makes you Ethereal when you move. (Avoid AoO, can move through walls, flight, etc).
Shedu Crown bound to Crown gives Telepathy.
Brood Keeper's Heart (Dragon Magazine 350 pg 86) bound to Heart gives you the Swarm template.
Various breath weapon options (weaker then DFA, but useful for most other builds).
Manticore Belt bound to Totem gives you a fairly decent ranged attack.
Many of your coolest abilities kick in at level 1 or 2. This includes various situational things which are very useful at level 1, like Trample, Die Hard, the equivalent of heavy armor, immunity to Flanking,+15 movement speed, Evasion, and most of the natural weapon options.


There's lots of other situational things I'm too lazy to list out here. The point is that it's a very well rounded class (melee, mobilility, ranged attack, area of effect, Save or Lose) and that most of his abilities are passive/always on, which means that it stacks well in Gestalt.

Okay, those do sound pretty cool. Mainly the things that other class features/ items would have a hard time imitating, like that Phase Cloak movement. And true, the Con-based DCs speak greatly in its favor. But there are a couple of things that are still ruining it for me. The main one is the magic items thing. For this character, especially at high levels, I see almost all of his body slots taken up by magic items, which means that except for the Totem Chakra itself, all the Chakra binds are more or less inaccessible to him. And that's severely limiting. The other thing is mainly flavor, but if this character is one who loves dragons and wants to be one himself, he isn't going to want to be running around wearing the ghostly avatars of other, inferior monsters. It's dragons he wants his power from, not Phase Spiders and Manticores.

Back to the Spellthief thing, I really can't decide what's the best use of the power. On the one hand, with Duskblade, you'd be able to use any stolen Touch spell multiple times in a single attack. If you're designing yourself for full attacks as well, you'll be Sneak Attacking more often and probably stealing more spells. But then again, you might not be Sneak Attacking more often, depending on the source of their flat-footedness. If you're just using regular Invisibility (which I probably would be, with the DFA invocation Walk Unseen), only the first attack will be a SA, which means only the first attack will steal, which means the only benefit from the full attack is multiple activations of the spell. Which is good, but you might not have stolen a good touch spell. The best spells are probably personal buffs, or AoEs, or something like that. If I assume that my regular attack pattern would be Walk Unseen, then next turn Flyby Attack to steal a spell, then the Duskblade channeling doesn't really do that much for me. So maybe that's not the way to go. In which case, should I go full Spellthief 20? The immediate action return casting is pretty cool. Is there any way to bump up the level check for Absorb Spell?

[Nettlekid]

I think I'm going to go with Spellthief, because I really like the flavor and it has a unique ability which doesn't encroach on the DFA. I suffer for the bad Charisma, losing out on a couple of class features, but nothing too serious. I also really like the similar flavor of the Spellfire Channeler feat, which lets you absorb targeted spell and fire back beams of magic energy. Now, would that feat be extremely redundant on a Spellthief, seeing as how it works very similarly to the Absorb Spell feature, or would it be good insurance? If you're faced with a lower level caster whose CL+10 you think you can roll with your Absorb Spell, use that to gain the full benefit of their spell. If the caster is equal level or higher, auto-absorb their targeted spell with Spellfire. Is there any clever way to combine Spellfire with the Spellthief's own spell recharge mechanics or something like that? Absorb a foe's spell with Spellfire, shoot the Spellfire at yourself, and then absorb that with the Spellthief's ability to refuel your spell slots?

[Fouredged Sword]

I would be tempted to go unseen seer though. Spellthief / Wizard / Unseen seer is a powerful combo with snipers shot and such.

[Person_Man]

The main one is the magic items thing. For this character, especially at high levels, I see almost all of his body slots taken up by magic items, which means that except for the Totem Chakra itself, all the Chakra binds are more or less inaccessible to him. And that's severely limiting.

Shaping a soulmeld does not close off a magic item slot. That only occurs when you bind it to a chakra. A Totemist gets a maximum of 5 Chakra binds by default. (A nice DM might let you use the Open Chakra feats to gain more, but it's highly debatable). As you noted the Totem chakra is slotless, and with the Double Chakra Feat, you can bind 2 soulmelds to it. So at most you'll be losing 3 magic item slots of your choice.

Though your concern is a common one. So I actually ended up homebrewing a Forsaker Totemist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=172094), which gives up all possessions in place of being able to gain a chakra bind for every slot.

I'm not advocating that you play a Totemist though. Play whatever you want to play. And it's also true that Incarnum in general lacks many useful high level abilities. I'm just saying that the disadvantages of using a Totemist or Incarnate are not that big of a deal.

[Talderas]

DFA makes a rather cruddy gestalt in my opinion. It doesn't really require much to work, but it also doesn't particularly synergize with anything either, and it's competing with most things for standard actions.

I'm going to reinforce this opinion.

The reason DFA makes a cruddy gestalt is due to the fact that it has standard action abilities in its class features that it can constantly and consistently use.

The best gestalt for a DFA is going to be a class that has a lot of swift action or move action abilities. The other option is to gestalt something that grants a lot of passive or effects that can pre-battle buff.

[Talya]

The best gestalt for a DFA is going to be a class that has a lot of swift action or move action abilities...

...Or otherwise breaks the action economy.


Raptoran-Dragonborn Dragonfire Adept//Factotum.

[danzibr]

Cool things a Totemist can do:

LOTS of natural attacks which are easy to boost and Pounce.
You can easily boost many commonly used Skills by +6 to +10 for minimal effort.
Super Grapple checks via Girillion Arms.
Blink Shirt bound to Totem is at will, move action Dimension Door. Thus you can use a Standard Action, then Dimension Door, EVERY TURN. You never run out of Power Points, and you never have to "refresh" a maneuver. (And you can do it at level 2).
Frost Helm bound to Totem gives you at will area of effect Stun ability. (Remember that enemies also drop their weapons when Stunned).
Gorgon Mask bound tot Totem gives you at will Stone to Flesh. (Only effects 1 enemy and lasts one round, but that's long enough for an ally to Sunder that enemy, so it's basically Save or Lose).
Shadow Mantle bound to Shoulders gives you (weird, poorly worded) continuous Greater Invisibility.
Phase Cloak bound to Shoulders makes you Ethereal when you move. (Avoid AoO, can move through walls, flight, etc).
Shedu Crown bound to Crown gives Telepathy.
Brood Keeper's Heart (Dragon Magazine 350 pg 86) bound to Heart gives you the Swarm template.
Various breath weapon options (weaker then DFA, but useful for most other builds).
Manticore Belt bound to Totem gives you a fairly decent ranged attack.
Many of your coolest abilities kick in at level 1 or 2. This includes various situational things which are very useful at level 1, like Trample, Die Hard, the equivalent of heavy armor, immunity to Flanking,+15 movement speed, Evasion, and most of the natural weapon options.


There's lots of other situational things I'm too lazy to list out here. The point is that it's a very well rounded class (melee, mobilility, ranged attack, area of effect, Save or Lose) and that most of his abilities are passive/always on, which means that it stacks well in Gestalt.
At first I was thinking this would be good to have in a Totemist handbook, just like a nice, easy to read list of cool tricks, then I realized *any* handbook would benefit from having one of these. A lot of handbooks have a list of pros and cons but not things like this.

Anyway, I love Totemist, but in your case Incarnate might be better. It's kinda... really weird to see a gestalt where both sides have poor BAB, but since DFA is already doing almost everything you want Incarnate would be nice passive rounding out.

[Nettlekid]

I was looking into Artificer for a while (because the idea of a dragon-like character hoarding a pile of valuable stuff he makes was kind of neat) and of course it's good, but the Artificer strength is just too much. Spellthief I liked the feeling of, but the low Charisma was too harsh, and it just didn't do that much. I like Factotum, but I worry that I wouldn't be able to make the most of it with just middling Int and not taking any Font of Inspiration feats. And I just can't see having enough spaces available for the Chakra Binds of any Meldshaping class, which is where the strongest powers are.

[Talya]

I was looking into Artificer for a while (because the idea of a dragon-like character hoarding a pile of valuable stuff he makes was kind of neat) and of course it's good, but the Artificer strength is just too much. Spellthief I liked the feeling of, but the low Charisma was too harsh, and it just didn't do that much. I like Factotum, but I worry that I wouldn't be able to make the most of it with just middling Int and not taking any Font of Inspiration feats. And I just can't see having enough spaces available for the Chakra Binds of any Meldshaping class, which is where the strongest powers are.

How about this advice from the DFA handbook?


Gestalt: Hooooo boy. Gestalt makes for some crazy, kung-fu, epic, super-powered, world-shattering, DBZ-style action. Dragonfire Adepts can be an AWESOME half of a Gestalt combo, and make you look and feel like sex on the beach - dirty, naughty, and stylish. First choice here would be a caster, preferably one with access to metabreath spells a la the Draconomicon. These include such hits as Rebuking, Dispelling, Stunning, and even Enervating (negative levels on a breath weapon - yes PLEASE!). Other good choices could include skill monkey/casters (yay for Beguilers!), or even a nice fat Aoo-based warrior-type (thin Crusader with Stand Still - you'll be your own backup). If you're going the warrior route, be sure to trick out the metabreath feats, running up your recharge rate, and then use the other rounds to whomp your foes with martial strikes. Good times. Hard to blow a gestalt, but focus on complementing the DFA's significant at-will de-buff and utility abilities with damage and casting and you'll kick butt and take names.

[Nettlekid]

Gestalt: Hooooo boy. Gestalt makes for some crazy, kung-fu, epic, super-powered, world-shattering, DBZ-style action. Dragonfire Adepts can be an AWESOME half of a Gestalt combo, and make you look and feel like sex on the beach - dirty, naughty, and stylish. First choice here would be a caster, preferably one with access to metabreath spells a la the Draconomicon. These include such hits as Rebuking, Dispelling, Stunning, and even Enervating (negative levels on a breath weapon - yes PLEASE!). Other good choices could include skill monkey/casters (yay for Beguilers!), or even a nice fat Aoo-based warrior-type (thin Crusader with Stand Still - you'll be your own backup). If you're going the warrior route, be sure to trick out the metabreath feats, running up your recharge rate, and then use the other rounds to whomp your foes with martial strikes. Good times. Hard to blow a gestalt, but focus on complementing the DFA's significant at-will de-buff and utility abilities with damage and casting and you'll kick butt and take names.


That's what I was looking at, and that's what I'm unable to really find. I'd go supporting/buffing caster if I had higher mental stats, but I don't. I don't envision this character being a melee type for something like Crusader because I don't have the feat slots that I'd need to dedicate to that. There's not a lot that I could add to a Gestalt to make the DFA WORSE, but I can't figure out what makes it substantially better either.

[Talya]

I don't get it.

You don't have decent enough mental stats to make a caster.
You don't have decent enough physical stats to make a bruiser.

On a 16 point buy, you can make an effective DFA with scores of 8/8/18/8/8/8. They have less MAD than any class in the game. With even a paltry 25 point buy, you can afford to bring another ability up to 15. If you're playing with a saner 30-36 point buy, you're golden. What are your ability scores that you can't support any other class on the other side of the gestalt?

If constitution is your only decent score, then there's not much useful you can do with your gestalt half other than boost saves/hit points.

Maybe look at the Dragon Disciple PrC and Fist of the Forest (take a base class that supports getting into them.)

[Turok124]

Factotum/chameleon

Factotum will let you use extra standard actions (more breathing/invocations per round)

Chameleon lets you give an untypes bonus to any ability score to let you pump con more. Even better, put it into a casting stat and use arcane focus to cast metabreath spells.

Don't let the flavor of a class deter your choice, you can change the flavor to whatever you want. Heck if you really want to be more draconic, reflavor ALL the totemist melds into draconic melds and BE a customizable dragon!

[Nettlekid]

I think the physical stats could work for a melee character, but I don't have the feat slots to devote to it. If I went melee, I'd want at least Power Attack/Improved Bull Rush/Shock Trooper, probably with Leap Attack. If I had those I'd have almost no Metabreath feats, and might as well not be using my breath. My best mental stat is Int, which is probably 14 because of the Mongrelfolk penalty, which could be boosted to 20 I guess with an item, which would allow me to at least cast 9th level Int-based spells.
With a 32-point buy (that's pretty standard, right?) I'd have 10 Str, 12 Dex, 18 Con, 16 Int, 8 Wis, 8 Cha. After racial adjustments, that's 10 Str, 10 Dex, 24 Con, 14 Int, 8 Wis, 4 Cha.

Chameleon's pretty good, especially for that extra feat versatility (when I was planning Artificer I wanted a 2-level dip in Chameleon just so I could get a certain craft feat if I needed it, but not all the time) but aren't individual casting PrCs frowned upon for Gestalt?

[Talya]

I think the physical stats could work for a melee character, but I don't have the feat slots to devote to it. If I went melee, I'd want at least Power Attack/Improved Bull Rush/Shock Trooper, probably with Leap Attack. If I had those I'd have almost no Metabreath feats, and might as well not be using my breath. My best mental stat is Int, which is probably 14 because of the Mongrelfolk penalty, which could be boosted to 20 I guess with an item, which would allow me to at least cast 9th level Int-based spells.
With a 32-point buy (that's pretty standard, right?) I'd have 10 Str, 12 Dex, 18 Con, 16 Int, 8 Wis, 8 Cha. After racial adjustments, that's 10 Str, 10 Dex, 24 Con, 14 Int, 8 Wis, 4 Cha.

Chameleon's pretty good, especially for that extra feat versatility (when I was planning Artificer I wanted a 2-level dip in Chameleon just so I could get a certain craft feat if I needed it, but not all the time) but aren't individual casting PrCs frowned upon for Gestalt?

Dual progression PrCs are frowned upon (like Mystic Theurge). That's about it.

[Nettlekid]

When a Chameleon gets X spells/day, is that for both its Arcane and Divine focus combined, or each? So like if a Chameleon got 2 4th level spells per day, and it casts Orb of Force twice in its Arcane Focus, then later switches to Divine Focus, would it then be able to cast, say, Cure Critical Wounds, or have all its 4th level slots been used up for the day?

[Fouredged Sword]

Two separate pools, but they both refresh daily, so you have to prep spell slots after switching to that focus, so 8 hours of rest followed by preping.