ready action, telepathy

[herculesftw]

how would you gauge the concentration check for someone who readies an action to yell in your mind as you're casting a spell?

[Bakeru]

...About as high as casting a spell while everyone around you is shouting and fighting? As in, "none, doesn't hamper concentration"?

[Scow2]

Actually, by RAW, the concentration check would be the DC of the spell allowing telepathy (Or Psionic power, or SLA), + the level of the spell you're trying to cast.

If the telepathic communication doesn't have a save, the DC is based on what the save WOULD be if it did have one (Spell/power level for spells and psionics, 1/2 monster HD for SLAs/supernatural abilities, in addition to attribute modifiers)

[Psyren]

Actually, by RAW, the concentration check would be the DC of the spell allowing telepathy (Or Psionic power, or SLA), + the level of the spell you're trying to cast.

The question isn't really "what would the save DC of this be," so much as it is "can telepathy be used to distract people?" To which I would say no, because telepathy doesn't seem to be any more distracting than yelling out loud would be. Not to mention that it's not clear whether you even have any control over the "volume" of telepathy.

[Urpriest]

Actually, by RAW, the concentration check would be the DC of the spell allowing telepathy (Or Psionic power, or SLA), + the level of the spell you're trying to cast.

If the telepathic communication doesn't have a save, the DC is based on what the save WOULD be if it did have one (Spell/power level for spells and psionics, 1/2 monster HD for SLAs/supernatural abilities, in addition to attribute modifiers)

To echo Psyren, the "distracted by a spell" entry only applies to spells that explicitly distract casters.

[Scow2]

The question isn't really "what would the save DC of this be," so much as it is "can telepathy be used to distract people?" To which I would say no, because telepathy doesn't seem to be any more distracting than yelling out loud would be. Not to mention that it's not clear whether you even have any control over the "volume" of telepathy.It's a spell, and it's an action readied to specifically interrupt spellcasting. Trying to cast something in an area with a lot of background noise is different from trying to cast something and being interrupted by a sudden, targeted attempt to distract through mental intrusion (Which is a lot more invasive than merely shouting). It's a non-damaging spell effect.


To echo Psyren, the "distracted by a spell" entry only applies to spells that explicitly distract casters.

I don't buy that - Spells that explicitly distract casters state how they do so in their descriptions, while the rule under Concentration Checks are a general rule capable of covering a larger number of variables. While incidental spellcasting isn't distracting to a caster, a spell or action specifically readied to distract a caster (As a "Poor-man's counterspell") does work, through the rules spelled out by the Concentration skill entry. (And in 3rd edition, there were a LOT more situations that could distract a caster. 3.5 simply condensed them to "Vigorous Motion" and "Bad weather".

[Urpriest]

It's a spell, and it's an action readied to specifically interrupt spellcasting. Trying to cast something in an area with a lot of background noise is different from trying to cast something and being interrupted by a sudden, targeted attempt to distract through mental intrusion (Which is a lot more invasive than merely shouting). It's a non-damaging spell effect.

So? More difficult to concentrate in reality does not equal chance to lose the spell. Only specific conditions are difficult enough to cast in, and those are listed.

[dascarletm]

I don't know. Some spells say they can, and some say they can't distract casters. It doesn't say in concentration that the spell must be specifically able to. In the magic section of the PHB:

Spell: If you are affected by a spell while attempting to cast a spell of your own, you must make a Concentration check or lose the spell you are casting. If the spell affecting you deals damage, the DC is 10 + points of damage + the level of the spell you’re casting. If the spell interferes with you or distracts you in some other way, the DC is the spell’s saving throw DC + the level of the spell you’re casting. For a spell with no saving throw, it’s the DC that the spell’s saving throw would have if a save were allowed.

I would expect if spells needed to say in their description that they can distract then it would say so. I mean, how many spells that are non-damaging say you can distract with it? I don't think that many. I'm certain that you can distract with any spell that doesn't deal damgage unless said otherwise (like prestidigitation).

[CyberThread]

I think you are missing a step here

step 1: Tactics

Step 2: Mechanics

Step 3: Roleplay


Step 4:?????


You have the first two down, but you need to add roleplay to this, and bluff or diplomacy your way into having the enemy spellcaster think you are said god, or said boss of the person. saying NO STOP! or even if you don't know who the person worships, just something with a high enough roll to make the persons top and wonder who the hell is in their head with so much charismatic leadership.

[Cerlis]

if bad weather can force a concentration check and grabbing someone by the shirt can, then i dont see why slapping someone's brain in the mind cant.

and the most logical way to find a DC for that is with the spell lvl of the telepathic spell thing

[TuggyNE]

if bad weather can force a concentration check and grabbing someone by the shirt can, then i dont see why slapping someone's brain in the mind cant.

The problem is, that's not actually what you're doing: you're just talking at them, mentally. And there is no listed DC that I know of for "loud conversation" or "noise of battle" or "horn blown in ear" or even "dire lion roaring right next to you". Nor is there any particular reason to suppose that telepathy can be made louder or more distracting, or that the spell itself makes the distraction more effective, if it exists in the first place.

[dascarletm]

The problem is, that's not actually what you're doing: you're just talking at them, mentally. And there is no listed DC that I know of for "loud conversation" or "noise of battle" or "horn blown in ear" or even "dire lion roaring right next to you". Nor is there any particular reason to suppose that telepathy can be made louder or more distracting, or that the spell itself makes the distraction more effective, if it exists in the first place.

The fact that it is a spell, and he is using it to distract, as per concentration and the rules in magic give it a DC. Spells that cannot be used in this manner (Prestidigitation) say so.

[TuggyNE]

The fact that it is a spell, and he is using it to distract, as per concentration and the rules in magic give it a DC. Spells that cannot be used in this manner (Prestidigitation) say so.

That just seems dysfunctional, though. Specifically, it should be apparent that not all non-damaging spells distract you. If so, casting prayer or haste on an ally while they're summoning a creature would have a chance to distract them. So how do you tell if a spell can be used to distract? Common sense. For one thing, a spell that can only be cast on enemies is probably able to distract them (or a spell that should only be cast on enemies). However, telepathy doesn't care; it works on friends and foes alike, and just the same way, so that doesn't indicate anything.

Common sense does not clearly indicate that telepathic communication (in any form) can definitely be used to distract; if anything, it seems most similar to other forms of communication, which do not seem to be distracting.

So there's a missing step here; there is just no stated reason to suppose telepathic shouting will do anything special.

Sorry.

[Psyren]

The fact that it is a spell, and he is using it to distract,

That second part is where you're tripping up. Where does it say Telepathy of any kind can be used to distract?

If you allow this, you open the floodgates to all kinds of ridiculousness. I quickly fart, disrupting his spell. I yell really loud, disrupting his spell. I spit 10 feet, disrupting his spell. If the clash and clamor of actual combat isn't loud enough to disrupt a spellcaster on its own, simply yelling shouldn't be either.

And again, you don't know what the volume of telepathy is. "Voice in your head" does not mean "shouting in your head." Where does it say you can shout using telepathy?

[Mnemnosyne]

The telepathy special quality is not a spell, and there's no place that says it causes distraction. Unless you do allow distraction for any loud shouting or talking or pretty much any other noise, then telepathy on its own cannot distract a caster. If you do allow distraction for those things, that's a houserule, so you'll have to judge based upon the DCs for being distracted by talking or other such things, there's no real RAW guideline for it.

However, if the telepathic communication is achieved via casting a spell on the target while he's casting a spell of his own, then the general rule about being affected by a spell while attempting to cast a spell of your own comes into effect. The telepathic communication itself is wholly irrelevant, though - the only thing that matters is that the target was affected by a spell.

And yes, according to that rule, it does not matter what spell it is or what the effect is - if you are affected by a spell, any spell, except for prestidigitation or any other spell that has a specific exception to that general rule, you must make a concentration check to complete your casting. If you're casting summon monster as a 1-round action and your ally decides to buff you, it forces a concentration check unless you resist the spell and thus are not affected by it.

Whether this is a good rule or not is debatable, but I don't see any other way to interpret the sentence "If you are affected by a spell while attempting to cast a spell of your own, you must make a Concentration check or lose the spell you are casting." It even goes on to specify how to determine the concetration check for a non-damaging spell. It doesn't say anything about being affected by a hostile, damaging, or non-harmless spell; it just says if you are affected by a spell.

[Fitz10019]

Any spellcaster worth his salt would practice ignoring environmental noises. I would consider this to be ignoring his ears. Ignoring Telepathy would be a separate albeit related skill. A caster could do it if he has practiced. As a DM, I would judge by character level whether this caster has devoted time to practicing against this type of distraction. In short, I'd let it work for a level or two (explaining why), but later threats would be 'practiced' against it.

CyberDrag's "Stop!" idea is valid, but as he said it becomes a Bluff check.

I wonder how the OP handled it, when it happened.

[Zaq]

Not just any noise (physical or telepathic) should force a Concentration check, but if someone is specifically spending an action on it, it seems reasonable to ad-hoc something. Actions have value, after all. I agree with those who suggest that the natural DC for the level of the effect granting telepathy would be a good place to start. It's going to be a pretty low DC compared to most other interruptions and not very likely to stop a caster who's actually invested in Concentration (so, in other words, all of them), but that's OK, because this is hardly as distracting as, say, a readied-action arrow hitting your guts.

Purely ad-hoc, but seems reasonable to me. The important part in my mind is the action cost. As I said, actions have value, and if someone wants to specifically spend an action on it, it seems worthwhile to roll with it.

The tricky part would be if the telepathic shouter is hidden. What would you have them roll to stay hidden after such a display? That's getting really deep into ad-hoc territory, but honestly, I can't even imagine a Beguiler using this enough to make it a major issue.

[herculesftw]

Now, if you had the disguise skill or perform skill in conjunction with telepathy, could you impersonate someones voice? This could be used in all sorts of distracting ways. Or you could for example, ready action alter self into a dead loved one of the enemy right before they attack haha. The problem you guys keep mentioning is they are just talking to them but that's not really the case. Physical noise, ie 'listen checks' are much different than mental noise. You can't really ignore mental noise, and telepathy is a direct conduit for mental noise, of which, I think you could distract someone since you're getting right to them. Also, I think if you had spellcraft and knew certain spells, you could throw random phrases at someone trying to cast a spell with a verbal component to throw off their concentration. Similar to counting 1,2,3,4, and someone starts counting as well, you forget what number you're on. you could throw out draconic phrases similar or out of order while they cast the spell

[herculesftw]

you could also impersonate a loved one, maybe calling for help to thwart or distract someone.

[Psyren]

However, if the telepathic communication is achieved via casting a spell on the target while he's casting a spell of his own, then the general rule about being affected by a spell while attempting to cast a spell of your own comes into effect. The telepathic communication itself is wholly irrelevant, though - the only thing that matters is that the target was affected by a spell.

The important part of the general rule is the clause "If the spell interferes with you or distracts you in some other way" (besides damage.) Telepathic communication does not say anywhere that it does those things.

This is a "the rules don't say it doesn't!" scenario, but the rules don't say that telepathy doesn't turn everyone in a 100' radius polka dot pink either.

[TuggyNE]

The problem you guys keep mentioning is they are just talking to them but that's not really the case. Physical noise, ie 'listen checks' are much different than mental noise. You can't really ignore mental noise, and telepathy is a direct conduit for mental noise, of which, I think you could distract someone since you're getting right to them.

Bolded I dispute, rather strongly. I've never had someone communicate with me telepathically, but I've definitely experienced self-generated mental noise, and indeed, the mind is perfectly capable of filtering it out with a bit of practice. I don't think it's substantially different from physical noise, except that most people don't practice filtering out mental noise.

However, it's difficult or impossible to be sure just how D&D telepathy works with precise real-world analogs, so we can either assume it's basically like talking, or just fall back on strict RAW, which gives no particular reason to suppose it could distract.


Also, I think if you had spellcraft and knew certain spells, you could throw random phrases at someone trying to cast a spell with a verbal component to throw off their concentration. Similar to counting 1,2,3,4, and someone starts counting as well, you forget what number you're on. you could throw out draconic phrases similar or out of order while they cast the spell

That seems plausible enough, but you'd have to houserule that. And figuring out a sensible DC is a bit tricky.