Gestalt Fighter/Knight -> Occult Slayer; Oppinions?

[Raelig]

Ive spent ages trying to design a melee character focused in slaying magic users for a while, and having never really played a melee character before id love some input as to what everyone thinks of this build.

My DM allowed me to gestalt fighter/knight because the rest of the party are fairly high tier, so the Plan is to go Fighter/Knight to level 6, at which point id have qualified for Occult Slayer, which ill carry on to 11, and then finish off the progression with Fighter/Knight if i don't die before then :p. By level 20 i will have 19 feats (because this design is based off of a human)

My stats are as follows:

Str 17
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 10
Cha 12

You can see a spreadsheet i made of my character HERE (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Au8vmh5H2JA-dGJ2aEJuUnZWWFBicXFlX0FZcUFWU2c#gid=7):

The main question i have is this: what feats would you recommend i take? By level 20 i will have gained 19 (!) feats

EDIT:
I should probably note that im really interested in what people can think of in the way of feats. Thanks!

[WhatBigTeeth]

Is your group treating Occult Slayer like one of the super-powerful special gestalt PrCs that takes up both class slots each level? See if you can treat it like a normal PrC - it's good, but it's really not that good.

[Raelig]

Im pretty sure its just a normal PRC as shown in the Google docs spreadsheet.

[KillingAScarab]

As someone who has had an interest in the anti-magic user character idea, I have to say the combination of the mage slayer line of feats and the occult slayer prestige class didn't leave a favorable impression with me. Every feat in the mage slayer line lowers your already-low caster level on the abilities granted by the prestige class. Take a look at nondetection cloak; your caster level for it is equal to a maximum of 5. Now look at the nondetection spell which it is based upon. Any divination attempted on you will have a caster level check, with the DC dependent upon your caster level.

I suggest you scrutinize the occult slayer's class features and consider how much of an obstacle they actually present to a caster.

[Crake]

Is your group treating Occult Slayer like one of the super-powerful special gestalt PrCs that takes up both class slots each level? See if you can treat it like a normal PrC - it's good, but it's really not that good.

immunity to mind affecting at level 5, character level 10, that's pretty decent

[Crake]

As someone who has had an interest in the anti-magic user character idea, I have to say the combination of the mage slayer line of feats and the occult slayer prestige class didn't leave a favorable impression with me. Every feat in the mage slayer line lowers your already-low caster level on the abilities granted by the prestige class. Take a look at nondetection cloak; your caster level for it is equal to a maximum of 5. Now look at the nondetection spell which it is based upon. Any divination attempted on you will have a caster level check, with the DC dependent upon your caster level.

I suggest you scrutinize the occult slayer's class features and consider how much of an obstacle they actually present to a caster.

Mage slayer only affects spells and spell-like abilities, occult slayer's abilities are all Ex or Su, so none are affected

[KillingAScarab]

Mage slayer only affects spells and spell-like abilities, occult slayer's abilities are all Ex or Su, so none are affectedHmm... you are correct. Still, you do give up a lot for occult slayer. A poor fortitude and reflex save, a lower hit die and it won't advance any class features. In return on the way to the capstone (since I'm guessing this character won't start at 13th level), you get a small bonus on saving throws against spells, a bane weapon, and 2/day you can try to prevent spells which target you from working. Area of effect and touch-range spells still work, and so will the third spell which targets you. I have my doubts that is enough to allow you to get into melee range to try to ready a viscious strike, which further assumes the caster will let you hang out right next to them.

The Forsaker out of Masters of the Wild at least got spell resistance and (some) fast healing; too bad you couldn't use even magic items with that prestige class. The Suel Archanamach from Complete Arcane has the ability to cast greater dispel magic on a melee hit with decent caster level (a supernatural ability, too), though it is limited in times per day. That prestige class also can cast buffs on itself which would be more difficult to dispel (but subject to mage slayer penalties), though it looks like the class doesn't explicitily state what its caster level is in the book. It's probably a maximum of 20 hours/tens of minutes/minutes/rounds for your buffs with the 3rd level class feature, before any adjustment by feats.

[Raelig]

Occult slayer is pretty much the purpose of this build, though it might not be optimum.

The question i actually have which no one has really answered yet, is what sort of feats would you recommend for an anti magic build that is melee heavy.

[KillingAScarab]

This post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7849191&postcount=27) in another thread about mage-slayer builds makes me think you might try the net and trident style feat from Complete Warrior. It has 3 feats for prerequisites along with a Dexterity 15, though. I'm also a little confused as to why the description for the net specifies a Concentration DC of 15, when the entangled condition it will cause has it's own DC of 15 + spell level. At least holding a net and another weapon means you're still threatening the squares around you, so mage slayer continues to work for you.

Shield ward and its prerequisite shield specialization from Player's Handbook II will raise your touch attack AC by one more than your shield's AC bonus, which might help you avoid needing to use your spell-turning against ranged touch attack spells (hi, orb spells). You can pick them up with fighter bonus feats. I'm not certain how it works with an animated shield since the intent seems to be that you control the shield to block better. If you're using both hands for something like net and trident, and an animated shield doesn't work you might use a buckler. If so, there's improved buckler defense in Complete Warrior to keep the shield bonus even when you're attacking with the arm you wear it on.

Upon further thought, the gradual +3 to saving throws against spells is also the equivalent of taking spell focus feats for every school and then arcane defense feats for every school (Complete Arcane). You can still take those feats if you want. The untyped bonus will stack and no casting is required for either of them. This will help with most of the spells which don't allow spell resistance (which I hope you have a way to get), just figure out which school is most troublesome. Since you'll become immune to mind-affecting spells, enchantment and some of both necromancy and illusion are out of the running.

The sort of bane quality on a weapon you get from occult slayer does have an advantage over the regular magebane quality from Complete Arcane, since it also works against divine spellcasters and creatures with divine spell-like abilities (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spellLikeAbilities). I'm guessing you aren't out to make an enemy of the party cleric, though.

[DMVerdandi]

Interesting...

I feel like in a world with mostly sorcerers and adepts, occult slayer and the mage slayer feats would be pretty decent, if singularly hunting one low level mage was the idea.

It would require some setting specific shenanigans though. Like the idea that a spellcaster is going to be alone, is not going to have wands and scrolls with spells specifically designed for escaping mage slayers on them, and isn't going to run buffs constantly when outside.

Much of what the Occult mage slayer has running could easily be stopped by a couple of level appropriate summon monster spells, even if the spellcaster was alone. And that is a LARGE assumption because it isn't really logical in or out of game. It would be lucky though, so it should be assumed both scenarios could happen.


If the mage is like a bard or sorcerer with poorly picked spells, then it will work somewhat, but if it is a wizard, cleric, druid, archivist, spirit shaman, then I don't quite know. And that is alone.

If the mage is smart enough to be in a team just like your party, then it has any combination of helpers to make sure it stays alive.

If the mage is surrounded by mage guild members, then it could have supporters from lower tiers helping it out.
Wizard X2, Duskblade x2 could be a thing, with each wizard having their own martially inspired magical bodyguard.

Or alternatively, Archivist 2x, Cleric 2x for a divine mage's guild.

For mixed, Archivist, wizard, Druid Cleric 3x.


For every Prepared spellcaster, there is a supporter who can somewhat engage in physical combat.



Finally, there is a problem with the build.
That problem is the knight. It's code does not allow you to actually enter into surprise rounds. You have to alert the mage of your presence and allow it the ability to prepare for combat.

That alone is the deathblow.
An evoker may be in trouble if it went against your spell relection ability, but if they use something like summons, or a conjuration spell, you are fubar. Even using enchantment or illusion spells gives them important information. They don't work.
Then they know what they are up against.

[Vaz]

If you have a knight, just have him become non-lawful once you have got your favourite abilities.

[MirddinEmris]

Try geshtalting occult slayer with ranger - it'll help with poor saves and skill points, and you can take Arcane Hunter ACF (from Complete Mage) to choose spellcasters as Favored Enemies, then take Nemesis (from Book of Exalted Deeds) to sense spellcasters regardless of their protection. Manyshot + Mage bane + Vicious Strike = win

[Raelig]

Try geshtalting occult slayer with ranger - it'll help with poor saves and skill points, and you can take Arcane Hunter ACF (from Complete Mage) to choose spellcasters as Favored Enemies, then take Nemesis (from Book of Exalted Deeds) to sense spellcasters regardless of their protection. Manyshot + Mage bane + Vicious Strike = win

now this is the kind of reply i was after! i love the Ranger ACF, i think i will definitely take 1 level of ranger at level 1 for the skill points and the favored enemy (arcanist). Nemesis is also awesome, especially if i couple it with blindfight vs invisible casters :D It dosn't hurt that ranger will boost my fort and dex a decent amount as well!

Manyshot may be something i could look into but im trying to focus much more on the melee aspect of this character (mind you it would definitely help to be able to shoot flying wizards down!)

Im a little unsure what you mean by Mage bane? do you mean the mage slayer feat chain?

[Gwendol]

Feats?

I'd be focusing on AoO's and generally trying to get the caster in my reach and lock him down.

Here's a suggested list:

Mage slayer line
Combat reflexes
EWP spiked chain
Blind fight (though I believe it's a prereq for one of the feats above)
Stand still
Defensive sweep
robilar's gambit
snap kick

And since you get so many feats you should probably try and get combat expertise and improved trip, as well as the tactical feats (shock trooper and combat brute at least).

However, again with so many feats I suggest also getting archery-related feats, for those occasions when you can't/won't get into melee range.

[Darius Kane]

Witch Hunter goes nicely with Occult Slayer in a mage-hunting build.

[Raelig]

Thanks for the tips guys, heres the list of feats that im looking at so far. there are a few gaps where i dont know which feat to put where though, (other feats im interested in are below, obviously i cant have all of them):


1 Power Attack Level
1 Able learner Human
2 Weapon Focus (Greatsword) Fighter
3 Mage Slayer Fighter
3 Nemesis Level
5 Fighter
6 Iron Will Knight
6 Blind Fight Level
7 Improved Initiative Fighter
9 Pierce Magical Protection Level
12 Pierce Magical Concealment Level
14 Fighter
15 Level
16 Fighter
16 Great Fortitude Knight
18 Fighter
18 Level
20 Fighter

Improved Bull Rush
Leap Attack
Defensive Sweep
Shock Trooper
Improved Sunder
Combat Brute
Point Blank Shot
Rapid Shot
Many Shot
Precise Shot



Suggestions?



.

[Essence_of_War]

Suggestions?

Your desired feats are pulling you in a lot of directions, but you really only have sufficient feat slots to go in one of them. Pick a combat style, and focus on it. Don't dabble in ranged AND melee AND anti-magic feats, you'll probably end up pretty marginal at all of them.

The level of optimization of magic-users in your group's world should inform your approach. You could try:

1) a lock-down build w/ anti-magic feats. A reach weapon, favored enemy Mage-Slayer, Pierce Magical Concealment, Combat Reflexes, either Improved Trip or Standstill, some source of extra damage probably Power Attack. Maybe a Crusader dip for Thicket of Blades. If you can get within reach of them, you can make them have a VERY bad day.

2) Sunder build w/ anti-magic feats. A reach weapon, improved sunder, MS, PMC, Combat Brute?. Sunder their spell components/focuses/holy symbols. Notably bad against psionics users or any eschew materials type folks.

3) Charging w/ anti-magic feats. Take the usual uber-charge feats, pump your initiative and splatter before they can act in combat. PA, Imp. BR, Shock Trooper.

Consider a Psychic Warrior as one part of your gestalt if your DM allows it. They're a solid tier 3, you don't lose MLs from the anti-magic feats, you get a ton of bonus feats, and a number of psychic warrior powers (dimension hop, hustle, dimension slide, expansion, lion's charge, etc) could help you with maneuvering yourself into position and maximizing your use of the action economy. You should assume that any caster worth their salt is going to be doing their best to maximize THEIR use of the action economy, and why cede that ground to them?

[Gwendol]

Oh yeah, Ability Focus (Test of Mettle) for your signature Knight ability.

[KillingAScarab]

Im a little unsure what you mean by Mage bane? do you mean the mage slayer feat chain?Magebane can be found on page 143 of Complete Arcane. The weapon bond class feature you get from occult slayer should stack with the damage on a magebane weapon. While I hadn't considered it earlier, both may be applied to a ranged weapon. Come to think of it, I wonder if clouting from the same page should be considered; I wonder what happens to a stunned wizard with a fly spell.


Oh yeah, Ability Focus (Test of Mettle) for your signature Knight ability.I completely forgot about that feat. Sadly, it's going to cause will saves and this build currently has low charisma for the DC. The 1/2 knight level doesn't help when you leave the class for five levels, if I correctly understand Raelig's intent.

As for the Psychic Warrior note, I would imagine that depends upon how the DM rules on the interaction between magic and psionics, if it exists in the campaign. If you have full psionic-magic transparency, you're probably losing manifester levels, too. If you get the "psionics is a spell-like ability" ruling, there's that stinky cheese involving supernatural transformation. But if you don't use that or you don't get a, "psionics is different," ruling wouldn't this character be hunting psions, too?

[gorfnab]

Here is a Witch Hunter/Occult Slayer build I came up with a while ago.

1. Ranger - B: Track, Weapon Focus: Guisarme, Arcane Hunter ACF
2. Barbarian - Spirit Totem: Lion ACF, Whirling Frenzy ACF, {Optional: City Brawler ACF (Drg#349)}
3. Barbarian - Nemisis: Arcanists, Wolf Totem ACF
4. Warblade
5. Warblade
6. Warblade - Mage Slayer
7. Warblade
8. Warblade - B: Improved Initiative
9. Crusader - Blindfight
10. Crusader
11. Occult Slayer
12. Occult Slayer - Combat Reflexes
13. Occult Slayer
14. Occult Slayer
15. Occult Slayer - Pierce Magical Concealment
16. Witch Slayer
17. Witch Slayer
18. Witch Slayer - Stand Still
19. Witch Slayer
20. Witch Slayer

Note: The level of Occult Slayer and Witch Hunter can be switched around as needed.

Warblade nets you the maneuvers Iron Heart Surge, Moment of Perfect Mind, and Action Before Thought. You also get Uncanny Dodge

Crusader nets you the Thicket of Blade Stance (combos nicely with Stand Still, Combat Reflexes, and a reach weapon; wear spiked gauntlets or armor spikes to threaten nearby squares) and some healing maneuvers. it also nets you Indomitable Soul.

Witch Slayer nets you Mettle and Slippery Mind.

If playing human take EWP: Spiked Chain and WF: Spiked Chain instead of Guisarme.

[Essence_of_War]

gorfnab's build is very much like what I was envisioning when I described the lock-down build!


As for the Psychic Warrior note, I would imagine that depends upon how the DM rules on the interaction between magic and psionics, if it exists in the campaign. If you have full psionic-magic transparency, you're probably losing manifester levels, too. If you get the "psionics is a spell-like ability" ruling, there's that stinky cheese involving supernatural transformation. But if you don't use that or you don't get a, "psionics is different," ruling wouldn't this character be hunting psions, too?


Psionics-Magic Transparency:



Combining Psionic And Magical Effects

The default rule for the interaction of psionics and magic is simple: Powers interact with spells and spells interact with powers in the same way a spell or normal spell-like ability interacts with another spell or spell-like ability. This is known as psionics-magic transparency.

Psionics-Magic Transparency
Though not explicitly called out in the spell descriptions or magic item descriptions, spells, spell-like abilities, and magic items that could potentially affect psionics do affect psionics.

When the rule about psionics-magic transparency is in effect, it has the following ramifications.

Spell resistance is effective against powers, using the same mechanics. Likewise, power resistance is effective against spells, using the same mechanics as spell resistance. If a creature has one kind of resistance, it is assumed to have the other. (The effects have similar ends despite having been brought about by different means.)

All spells that dispel magic have equal effect against powers of the same level using the same mechanics, and vice versa.

The spell detect magic detects powers, their number, and their strength and location within 3 rounds (though a Psicraft check is necessary to identify the discipline of the psionic aura).

Dead magic areas are also dead psionics areas.

Multiple Effects
Powers or psionic effects usually work as described no matter how many other powers, psionic effects, spells, or magical effects happen to be operating in the same area or on the same recipient. Except in special cases, a power does not affect the way another power or spell operates. Whenever a power has a specific effect on other powers or spells, the power description explains the effect (and vice versa for spells that affect powers). Several other general rules apply when powers, spells, magical effects, or psionic effects operate in the same place.

Stacking Effects
Powers that provide bonuses or penalties on attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws, and other attributes usually do not stack with themselves. More generally, two bonuses of the same type don’t stack even if they come from different powers, or one from a power and one from a spell. You use whichever bonus gives you the better result.

Different Bonus Types
The bonuses or penalties from two different powers, or a power and a spell, stack if the effects are of different types. A bonus that isn’t named (just a “+2 bonus” rather than a “+2 insight bonus”) stacks with any bonus.

Same Effect More than Once in Different Strengths
In cases when two or more similar or identical effects are operating in the same area or on the same target, but at different strengths, only the best one applies. If one power or spell is dispelled or its duration runs out, the other power or spell remains in effect (assuming its duration has not yet expired).

Same Effect with Differing Results
The same power or spell can sometimes produce varying effects if applied to the same recipient more than once. The last effect in a series trumps the others. None of the previous spells or powers are actually removed or dispelled, but their effects become irrelevant while the final spell or power in the series lasts.

One Effect Makes Another Irrelevant
Sometimes, a power can render another power irrelevant.

Multiple Mental Control Effects
Sometimes psionic or magical effects that establish mental control render one another irrelevant. Mental controls that don’t remove the recipient’s ability to act usually do not interfere with one another, though one may modify another. If a creature is under the control of two or more creatures, it tends to obey each to the best of its ability, and to the extent of the control each effect allows. If the controlled creature receives conflicting orders simultaneously, the competing controllers must make opposed Charisma checks to determine which one the creature obeys.

Powers and Spells with Opposite Effects
Powers and spells with opposite effects apply normally, with all bonuses, penalties, or changes accruing in the order that they apply. Some powers and spells negate or counter each other. This is a special effect that is noted in a power’s or spell’s description.

Instantaneous Effects
Two or more magical or psionic effects with instantaneous durations work cumulatively when they affect the same object, place, or creature.


Bold/Underline for emphasis. The key here is that psionic/magic transparency does not mention feats at all. It specifically spells out the implications of psi-magic transparency, and special effects of feats are not listed. Obviously YMMV with your own group/DM, but I'd note that Mage Slayer also wouldn't provide any benefit against manifesters by a similar reading of psi-magic transparency.