Which parts do you re-read the most often?

[cavalier973]

My favorite arc in the comic is Comic #623 - #663; V's "Deal with the Devils".
I think I like it because, for the most part, we get to see one of the OoTS members actually quite powerful and effective, even though the consequences have turned out rather worse than anticipated. Plus, can a stick-figure comic possibly have a more epic panel than the first one on #635?

I like the "Battle of Azure City" arc, but I don't think I've re-read it but once, since it ends in Roy's death, and the loss of the city.

#307 - #316, where they celebrate the new year, is also pretty good, especially the "Roy and Celia Date" strip (#313)

[Mike Havran]

For me it's the entire desert arc, from the beginning. The Cliffport sub-arc is the second :smallbiggrin:

[cavalier973]

Note: I know this is a similar thread to the "best and worst" thread, but what I'm curious about is not so much which strip or arc you like the best, but which one(s) you actually go back and read more than once.

For example, whenever I re-read the Lord of the Rings, I usually start with the Battle of Helm's Deep, then go back and read FotR.

[Bulldog Psion]

The Battle for Azure City is the most frequently read area for me.

After that, it's the inn scene.

[SadisticFishing]

Azure City in general, the Darth V arc, and the most recent bits.

[KillingAScarab]

My favorite arc in the comic is Comic #623 - #663; V's "Deal with the Devils".
I think I like it because, for the most part, we get to see one of the OoTS members actually quite powerful and effective, even though the consequences have turned out rather worse than anticipated. Plus, can a stick-figure comic possibly have a more epic panel than the first one on #635?I go until the end of the book, but yes, this is my clear favorite. Vaarsuvius character development is the best character development for me. The only other part I read nearly as often is when Belkar comes out of "full Hippy Vision Quest mode" in Greysky City.

[137beth]

V's fight against Xykon, and the escape. Why? Because it's powerful, and power is awesome. Power equals power.

[Obscure Blade]

Another vote for the whole sequence with Vaarsuvius making his/her deal with the Three Fiends.

[Gift Jeraff]

1. "Heroism for Dummies" (#377 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0377.html)-400 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0400.html)).

2. The Darth V/IFCC/ancient black dragon/Xykon's Tower strips

3. The Cliffport battle

[Mage Paradox]

V's fight against Xykon, and the escape. Why? Because it's powerful, and power is awesome. Power equals power.

This for me too, but mostly with the opposite sentiment when reading it. Stupid Railroad Plot.

[137beth]

This for me too, but mostly with the opposite sentiment when reading it. Stupid Railroad Plot.

1. Railroading is a meaningless concept in a game without players.
2. Even if this were a game, how the heck is it railroading:smallconfused:

[Mage Paradox]

1. Railroading is a meaningless concept in a game without players.
2. Even if this were a game, how the heck is it railroading:smallconfused:

V had to lose for the plots sake. So s/he did. It had nothing to do with "power equals power" since V's power should have been more than sufficient to beat Xykon if not for plot railroading. Instead V was given the idiot ball, and lost. That's been true of plenty of fights in this comic of course, and I enjoyed V's plot greatly with the exception of comic #652 and (to a lesser extent) #653.

I've got no problem with Xykon winning, I just would have liked to see Xykon win with V fighting intelligently.
EDIT- that reminds me, the Dorukan fight also bothered me for that reason. And a few others. But those 2 stand out.

[sam79]

For an arc, I suppose it has to be the battle for Azure City. For a book, it is between War and XP and Snips, Snails...

I don't re-read the online strips often though; I tend to wait until the book is published before re-reading the story in one go. And each time a new book comes out, I tend to re-read the whole saga from the beginning while I'm waiting for the post to arrive.

[Pandoren]

I only started reading OOTS a week ago, but so far I've gone back and re-read the last part of the story (Durkon dying) and all the bits where V has used explosive runes :smallbiggrin: Although obviously V has more important things to be worrying about at the moment, I do miss the tension with Belkar and the pranking both ways... I guess we've moved on from there!

[Jay R]

Plus, can a stick-figure comic possibly have a more epic panel than the first one on #635?

Yes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0439.html). Yes, he can.

(Yes, V shows that he has power in 635. By contrast, Belkar has actually accomplished something. V was more epic later on, with "Shapechange".)

[Sir_Leorik]

I often reread books three and four and Start of Darkness. I also like to reread the Empire of Blood part of the current storyline (beginning with Elan, Haley and V getting caught by Gannji and Enor). I like to reread some of the individual strips from the first book, especially the Fruit Pie strip, the invisibility sphere strip and the mind flayer strips. ("Don't say it! It's trademarked.")

While it seems I'm giving short shrift to book two, some of my favorite individual strips come from book two: the Cheese Shoppe gag with the polearms, the Intermission strip from #301 and my absolute favorite Order of the Stick strip of all:
:roy:"Our lives are on the line, and we're going to be represented by a friggin' paralegal!" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0268.html)
Celia: :smallannoyed: "Friggin' paraelemental actually."

[cavalier973]

Yes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0439.html). Yes, he can.

(Yes, V shows that he has power in 635. By contrast, Belkar has actually accomplished something. V was more epic later on, with "Shapechange".)

Ha! It's a good strip, but I find it more humorous than epic. It sets up very nicely the removal of Belkar's curse, too.

The rising of the Ghost Martyrs is pretty epic; Roy using the ring of jumping to get Xykon; Durkon using "Control Weather"; there's a lot of really epic panels, but when I first saw V wearing black robes...and those sharpened teeth...and the "suggestions" from the Soul Splices...*shiver*

[Ted The Bug]

The early Miko strips (I think she's a fantastic awful character), the Azure City battle, the Orc Island scene, and pretty much any part where Haley plays a major role.

[Chad30]

The Azure City battle, Vaarsuvius' deal with the chaotic ones and subsequent battles. The part where Tarquin is introduced and the time they spent in that city. The first battle with Xykon. O'Chul's imprisonment. The order of the scribble story.

The Azure City arc in general was fantastic, and I really love Tarquin in this arc.

[137beth]

V had to lose for the plots sake. So s/he did. It had nothing to do with "power equals power" since V's power should have been more than sufficient to beat Xykon if not for plot railroading. Instead V was given the idiot ball, and lost. That's been true of plenty of fights in this comic of course, and I enjoyed V's plot greatly with the exception of comic #652 and (to a lesser extent) #653.

I've got no problem with Xykon winning, I just would have liked to see Xykon win with V fighting intelligently.
EDIT- that reminds me, the Dorukan fight also bothered me for that reason. And a few others. But those 2 stand out.

1. Once again, railroading is preventing the players from affecting the plot. In the comic, there are no players, so there is no such thing as railroading.
2. Even if V were a player, s/he didn't lose "just because of plot." I don't know how much familiarity you have with epic level play, but basically, the most important factors are WBL and epic spells. V had access to the spells of two low-epic casters, neither of whom had spells tailored to the situation. He/she had the magic items available to a mid-nonepic character. Both the spliced people at that point were definitely lower leveled than Xykon, and neither of them had level-appropriate magic items that V had access to. Also note that Xykon must have had resources that he didn't use in that fight (since we have only accounted for a small portion of what a caster of his level should have), so if V had "gotten smarter", Xykon could have too.

Now, if Haerta had been there, it would have been completely different: she was substantially more powerful and likely had some epic spells specifically designed to deal with undead. But she wasn't there, because V has a nonepic caster's Concentration modifier.

[Kurald Galain]

In my case, the sequence where Redcloak obliterates the resistance, utterly destroys Tsukiko without raising a sweat, and successfully outwits Xykon - just as a reminder who set in motion the pivotal events of this entire campaign. Wow!

[Tragak]

V had to lose for the plots sake. So s/he did. It had nothing to do with "power equals power" since V's power should have been more than sufficient to beat Xykon if not for plot railroading. Instead V was given the idiot ball, and lost. That's been true of plenty of fights in this comic of course, and I enjoyed V's plot greatly with the exception of comic #652 and (to a lesser extent) #653.

I've got no problem with Xykon winning, I just would have liked to see Xykon win with V fighting intelligently. Personally, that actually struck me as the point. If V had been fighting more intelligently, V would've won, and if V wins next time, it will be because V's using his/her reduced arcane power with more tactical power.

You could say that V has had the same idiot ball for the entire story up to that point, and this was just the first time it truly failed him/her and s/he needed to grow past it.

[shamgar001]

Battle of Azure City

Darth V

The last section of Start of Darkness

[Mage Paradox]

V had access to the spells of two low-epic casters, neither of whom had spells tailored to the situation. He/she had the magic items available to a mid-nonepic character. Both the spliced people at that point were definitely lower leveled than Xykon, and neither of them had level-appropriate magic items that V had access to. Also note that Xykon must have had resources that he didn't use in that fight (since we have only accounted for a small portion of what a caster of his level should have), so if V had "gotten smarter", Xykon could have too.

Now, if Haerta had been there, it would have been completely different: she was substantially more powerful and likely had some epic spells specifically designed to deal with undead. But she wasn't there, because V has a nonepic caster's Concentration modifier.

Now see, not only are you inventing stuff here, but you're inventing stuff that defies the evidence we've seen. You have no idea the 2 other splices were low level epics, and frankly the idea a caster who could invent a spell like Epic Teleport is a low epic is laughable. Can you even imagine how much that would cost? It rivals familicide in some ways.

V had lots of ways to win. They just had hir fight like an idiot so s/he didn't (much like Dorukan got jobbed).

[DaggerPen]

The Battle of Azure City, Elan vs. Tarquin (from "On a rooftop, no less. Exquisite" to "We're going to tell the best story ever."), and the friendship between Monster in the Darkness and O-Chul.

[oppyu]

Now see, not only are you inventing stuff here, but you're inventing stuff that defies the evidence we've seen. You have no idea the 2 other splices were low level epics, and frankly the idea a caster who could invent a spell like Epic Teleport is a low epic is laughable. Can you even imagine how much that would cost? It rivals familicide in some ways.

V had lots of ways to win. They just had hir fight like an idiot so s/he didn't (much like Dorukan got jobbed).
You know, one of the best parts of never actually playing D&D is that I never have to worry about things like 'railroad plot' or 'certain characters not fighting optimally', because I have no idea what optimal fighting is or who should win a given fight :smallcool:

[Mage Paradox]

Ganonron's powers should definitely have been sufficient to take care of Xykon, even with V's lower level stats (like concentration checks) since he had the guys caster level (and spells). Epic Teleport Xykon into the Sun, or an ocean of acid, or a plane from which he cannot escape/will be killed. Epic Teleport his freaking head off while you're at it. Epic Teleport is a spell which would require an epic caster almost certainly miles beyond Xykon to create.

[137beth]

You know, one of the best parts of never actually playing D&D is that I never have to worry about things like 'railroad plot' or 'certain characters not fighting optimally', because I have no idea what optimal fighting is or who should win a given fight :smallcool:

Optimal tactics help you achieve your goal. In this case, the goal of every character in the strip was to make an interesting comic (not win fights), so if you are entertained, then they are using optimal tactics:smallsmile:
Except for people who want the order to win whenever the d&d rules would allow it, who the Giant is not trying to entertain.

Anyways, one of the splices was definitely low-epic, since he lost all his epic slots to a single energy drain.
As for ganonron, do we know that epic teleport is capable of not moving the caster too? I don't think V would want to teleport into the sun. Of course, it should be easy for someone at that level to craft an epic spell which DOES allow you to teleport just someone else...
But you always seem to work from the assumption that nobody has any spells which we haven't seen them use. So yea, Ganonron may well have had a spell (that we haven't seen) which allowed him to teleport Xykon somewhere unpleasant, and Xykon could just have easily had a spell to counter it.
Also, how the freaking whatever are you possibly getting the idea that epic teleport is anywhere near comparable to familicide:smalleek::smallconfused:? That is the single most crazy forum theory I have heard, even crazier than "Belkar is chaotic neutral." Congratulations.

[Olinser]

Optimal tactics help you achieve your goal. In this case, the goal of every character in the strip was to make an interesting comic (not win fights), so if you are entertained, then they are using optimal tactics:smallsmile:
Except for people who want the order to win whenever the d&d rules would allow it, who the Giant is not trying to entertain.

Anyways, one of the splices was definitely low-epic, since he lost all his epic slots to a single energy drain.
As for ganonron, do we know that epic teleport is capable of not moving the caster too? I don't think V would want to teleport into the sun. Of course, it should be easy for someone at that level to craft an epic spell which DOES allow you to teleport just someone else...
But you always seem to work from the assumption that nobody has any spells which we haven't seen them use. So yea, Ganonron may well have had a spell (that we haven't seen) which allowed him to teleport Xykon somewhere unpleasant, and Xykon could just have easily had a spell to counter it.
Also, how the freaking whatever are you possibly getting the idea that epic teleport is anywhere near comparable to familicide:smalleek::smallconfused:? That is the single most crazy forum theory I have heard, even crazier than "Belkar is chaotic neutral." Congratulations.

Energy drain takes out 2d4 spell slots. That's 2-8 spell slots, with 5 being the average. 5 epic spell slots is a LOT. And if Xykon had a maxed roll - 8 epic spell slots? I'm not even sure it's possible to get many more than that. By the rules (which I acknowledge that Rich may fudge as he deems fit), you get 1 Epic spell per 10 ranks in Knowledge (Arcana).

Being limited to your level + 3 for a class skill, to have more than 5 slots you'd have to be level 57. To get more than 8 epic spell slots would require you to be level 87. Yeah..... unlikely, to say the least.

If they were 'only' high-20's to low-30's, Xykon would have had to roll snake eyes to NOT get their epic spells.

Also factor in the fact that the teleporter had already cast TWO epic spells (both Epic Teleports), and he would have had to be minimum level 47, AND had Xykon roll snake eyes, to have a single Epic spell left.

As for Epic Teleport.... purely by the rules, the Transport seed starts at DC 27, and only gets you 1000 pounds of material. For each 50 pounds you go past that, it adds +2.

I have no idea how much that fleet weighs, but you're talking literally hundreds of TONS with the amount and size of ships in the fleet.

Purely by the rules, we're talking about a DC in the THOUSANDS. And that's not even adding in the increased DC for not having to touch them.

[Mage Paradox]

Like the guy above says. The DC would be insane. I read somewhere that someone calculated the Familicide DC, and it actually isn't as insane as you'd imagine. Just google for people making the familicide calc's. Meanwhile Epic Teleport is teleporting tens of thousands of people against their will, along with thousands of tonnes of materials. The DC likely comes out as much higher than Familicide has been calculated to be.
EDIT: googled a calculation here: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5913561&postcount=1

So while Haerta was a higher level than Ganonron, it's very clear Ganonron was also an insanely powerful guy. It also makes sense he would be, if he was a multi-dimensional conquerer as described, who conquered "world after world". So far the guys we've seen, like Xykon, are bad guys who take down countries... not multi-dimensional empires. Xykon is a guy who could be taken down by a few dragons (or just the single Ancient Black Dragon with her Anti-Magic Field). He certainly couldn't conquer this whole world. There'd be dragons and high level creatures who could take him down (especially more than 1 at a time). Sure, Ganonron had armies, but he must have been powerful enough to survive the inevitable attacks and assassination attempts by such epic beings that being a conquerer brings.

As the above poster points out, you don't have any evidence to peg them at "low epic" at all.

As for Epic Teleport needing Ganonron to come too- even if we assume it does, that's no problem. All Ganonron needs to do is cast the appropriate protection spell on himself first, then transport the two of them there. Or he just uses multiple Epic Teleports to take Bits of Xykon to different locations. Or he teleports a fortress on top of Xykon. The possibilities are endless really. He'd certainly have no trouble gating in creatures who could crush Xykon like paste, given the level he'd need to be in order to create such a spell as Epic Teleport.

[Warren Dew]

The first twenty or thirty strips, because they are the funniest.

[Loki_42]

The non-main comic bits. Start of Darkness, On the Origin of PCs, and Snips, Snails, and Dragon Tales. Not really because they're my favorites(though SoD is a contender for that) but because the books are the shortest, and I find it's easy to just pick them up and read through them when I'm gonna have some free time.

[Breccia]

:durkon:holy.

The fight between the Linear Guild and the Order in the pyramid hallway was great, but Durkon dropping the H-bomb was fantastic.

Second, the death of Tsukiko.

[Skamandros]

V had to lose for the plots sake. So s/he did. It had nothing to do with "power equals power" since V's power should have been more than sufficient to beat Xykon if not for plot railroading. Instead V was given the idiot ball, and lost. That's been true of plenty of fights in this comic of course, and I enjoyed V's plot greatly with the exception of comic #652 and (to a lesser extent) #653.

V won the fight with Xykon. She rescued O-Chul, she gathered priceless information about the Snarl, she delayed Xykon for months, and she got out alive.

[R00kie]

Elan and Thogs being jailed in Cliffport, their grand adventure, through to Haley recovering her voice - the most awesome arc ever written, complete with training montage.

[Takver]

I love to reread the sequence in the Azure City throne room from 405-409, where Shojo's deception is revealed, Miko executes him and Falls, and then battles Hinjo but is beaten by Roy. I really like all the dialogue, and the dynamics between all the characters, and I especially like Hinjo. I like how fast things spiral out of control, not because of big magic or any of the major villains being in the room, but because of human personalities and motivations colliding spectacularly.

[Kurald Galain]

V won the fight with Xykon. She rescued O-Chul, she gathered priceless information about the Snarl, she delayed Xykon for months, and she got out alive.

Well said.

[Mage Paradox]

Well said.

V fighting remotely intelligently would have turned Xykon to dust and still done all those things.

[Grogmir]

Without a doubt SoD. There's so much badassness in that comic is amazing.

The recent Durkon getting Vamp'd scene I reread quite a few times though. Honourable mention to Tsuiko vs Redcloak. Thats really one of the first times I went wow. There's NOTHING The Giant cant do with this format.

~ ~ ~


V fighting remotely intelligently would have turned Xykon to dust

But he's V, he doesn't fight intelligently, thats his whole "thing" his growth to what he thought was "ultimate arcane power" and back again is his personal story.
V himself explains why he did not fight intelligently in #667 "I squandered its true potential by wielding it like a cudgel"
He did not "lose" by getting a stuck on a Railroad. He lost cause he's V. He's not as great as the sum of his parts.

And if V himself cant convince you perhaps the giant can.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14791493&postcount=111


Here's the thing: No matter what I draw in any battle scene, within ten minutes of posting it someone chimes in about how the characters are stupid for not executing this, that, or the other tactic. Never mind that said tactic would likely end the fight in one panel when it is my job to provide you with an entertaining battle scene. Never mind that said tactic may result in the person winning whom the plot does not need to win. Never mind that the fight may not be over yet. No, all that matters is that these characters are not living up to someone's imagined D&D tactical mastery.

Well, I don't give a damn anymore. The characters fight the way they fight to make an interesting page. They may make subpar decisions, I don't care. I don't spend enough time with the D&D rules anymore to eke out all of these Ultimate Killer Strategies anyway, so we're really running up against the limits of my knowledge and ability. The characters can't be better strategists than I am, and I care more about other aspects. Such strategies are usually boring to read and visually bland to look at anyway. There aren't going to be a lot of invisible save-or-die effects thrown around, because there are only so many ways I can draw characters succeeding at Fortitude saves (and then I still have to verbally explain what just happened). You should stop expecting them, because I'm not going to use them.

My job is to entertain, not to showcase perfect D&D tactics. If you can't be entertained by anything BUT perfect D&D tactics, that's on you.

[Mage Paradox]

I don't mind V losing, and I don't mind V getting character growth. I do mind V losing in a way that demonstrates virtually zero intelligence (something V has shown in great measure, particularly as regards planning and application to fights). It also felt like a bit of a cheat, because Xykon had been portrayed as being of a considerably lower level, and then all of a sudden Xykon is something like level 32+

Like I said, I don't mind, and aside from those 2 pages the whole arc was good (minus 1 or 2 annoying errors), but I feel like a great chance was missed. I would have enjoyed it alot more if Xykon had beaten V fairly, not with V being dumb (and seemingly having every bit of luck go against hir). It got a little better in 653. 652 I pretty much wanted to throw something, especially when it looked like Xykon using Maximized energy drain was somehow checkmate (when energy drain does not work that way!, and would leave V with many, many high end spells to crush Xykon with! People seem to think that a Maximized Energy Drain would turn a level 24 caster into a level 16 Caster. It doesn't, it doesn't even take most of their spells. It takes 8 of them. And V's level was so high, it really shouldn't have mattered too much). I was glad 653 went away from this angle, as Richhas depicted Energy Drain as invincible for too long, and it's tiring to see Xykon seemingly solve every fight with an Epic Mage by energy draining them (in the case of Dorukan, 5 times in a row while Dorukan only gets 1 turn for no explicable reason).

[Grogmir]

Then all I can say is I'm glad I don't have such an in-depth knowledge of the rules that it gets in my way of enjoying the story.

This comic has made me want to throw something. But not cause of Rich's rules interpretation.

[Mage Paradox]

Then all I can say is I'm glad I don't have such an in-depth knowledge of the rules that it gets in my way of enjoying the story.

This comic has made me want to throw something. But not cause of Rich's rules interpretation.

My knowledge isn't that great either. But a webcomic is different to a real comic in the sense that forums like this exist to deliberate, friends can discuss with each other the possibilities, etc. You come to know enough that you have certain expectations... not that those can't be overcome, but there's a danger of people feeling cheated. I think Rich does a job 100 times better than some other webcomics do in resolving this problem. Erfworld for instance is notorious in this regard- the writer doesn't even tell other people most of the rules, and still manages to contradict himself (or rewrites his rules) to force the plot. I think in a comic where game mechanics are clearly an important aspect of the characters interactions (and no, nobody is saying they trump the plot, but they are important), that you have to be careful not to just trod all over them to get the plot you like (or at least not too much). Dorukan standing there like an idiot while Xykon got 5 spells for every 1 of his felt alot like that. It would have been fine if Xykon won, just keep it loosely within the mechanics you've created for the characters up to this point. Ditto V v.s Xykon. I just didn't like the way it went mostly.

[Skamandros]

I do mind V losing in a way that demonstrates virtually zero intelligence (something V has shown in great measure, particularly as regards planning and application to fights).

She hadn't tranced in months, had just gone through the emotional trauma of having her family threatened, had no time to plan, had no experience casting epic magic, and was in a continual battle of wills with two epic spellcasters.

[Mage Paradox]

The rejuvenating effect of the splice should have put V back to normal. So that excuse doesn't fly. The other 2 guys were far less distracting than the other 5 members of hir party usually are. V seemed plenty calm by the time s/he went to fight Xykon, and behaved with absurd idiocy.

[rgrekejin]

I don't mind V losing, and I don't mind V getting character growth. I do mind V losing in a way that demonstrates virtually zero intelligence (something V has shown in great measure, particularly as regards planning and application to fights).

Yes, we know, you don't like how the fight between Xykon and V played out. I think this is the third or fourth thread that you've steered off into a discussion of this. Here's the thing: the fight between V and Xykon happened. It's over. It is a matter of historical fact in this comic, no hypotheticals need apply. Xykon acted the way he did, and V acted the way she did, and we all got to see the outcome. If you think that V was acting out of character, then you are wrong. Period. V acted the way V acted, which, by definition, makes her actions in character. If you think that her intelligence should have made her act differently under those specific circumstances, then your mental picture of V is somehow flawed, because that is not the way she acted in that given situation. If you think her powers should have been sufficient to batter Xykon to the ground even still, you are wrong. Because they demonstrably were not. You can continue to complain that V should have known to do this or should have planned to do that, but it won't do you a bit of good, because we all know that she didn't. And yet, you continue to insist that V's explicit actions are not reflective of the way V acts, rather than admit that the V you have in your head is in fact not the V that exists in this story. I find that rather strange.


I would have enjoyed it alot more if Xykon had beaten V fairly, not with V being dumb (and seemingly having every bit of luck go against hir).

I find this assertion rather strange as well, as I know it's been demonstrated to you in another thread that, in order for V to have even survived the fight with Xykon at all, Xykon would have needed to roll somewhere near minimum damage for all of his spells... so I would hardly say that all the luck was against V here.

Yeah... here it is.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15132253&postcount=119

[Mage Paradox]

Yes, we know, you don't like how the fight between Xykon and V played out. I think this is the third or fourth thread that you've steered off into a discussion of this. Here's the thing: the fight between V and Xykon happened. It's over. It is a matter of historical fact in this comic, no hypotheticals need apply. Xykon acted the way he did, and V acted the way she did, and we all got to see the outcome. If you think that V was acting out of character, then you are wrong. Period. V acted the way V acted, which, by definition, makes her actions in character. If you think that her intelligence should have made her act differently under those specific circumstances, then your mental picture of V is somehow flawed, because that is not the way she acted in that given situation. If you think her powers should have been sufficient to batter Xykon to the ground even still, you are wrong. Because they demonstrably were not. You can continue to complain that V should have known to do this or should have planned to do that, but it won't do you a bit of good, because we all know that she didn't. And yet, you continue to insist that V's explicit actions are not reflective of the way V acts, rather than admit that the V you have in your head is in fact not the V that exists in this story. I find that rather strange.



I find this assertion rather strange as well, as I know it's been demonstrated to you in another thread that, in order for V to have even survived the fight with Xykon at all, Xykon have needed to roll somewhere near minimum damage for all of his spells... so I would hardly say that all the luck was against V here.

Yeah... here it is.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15132253&postcount=119

That's how I feel, yes.

As for Xykon's meteor storm, that's obviously been handwaved so it somehow missed or was evaded. It's one regretable error, but it doesn't colour the sequence of the fight (or the outcome). In contrast pretty much everything goes Xykon's way in the fight v.s V:
- V ports in with virtually no buffs or prep, even though it will take him seconds to do so before he ports in (oh, there's a trap waiting there for hir)
- V fails concentration check v.s trap
- V responds with a spell that does not affect Xykon. I mean, s/he's been on a quest to fight a Lich for how long now? And s/he still doesn't know Lich's are immune to electricity. It's a bit ridiculous. If V had used a different spell (or even just aimed at Redcloak first) it would have been far more reasonable. Aiming at Redcloak would almost surely have killed him.
- Xykon is not alone, he has 3 helpers ready
- Redcloak and Xykon somehow know what soul splices are (despite them being a "once in a century" deal that V shouldn't "bother looking up")
- V finally uses a sensible spell, Empowered Sunburst. Xykon of course makes his reflect save and is not blinded (and takes less damage)
- Quickened dimensional anchor misses
- Disintegrate fails (for no clearly explained reason)
- V fails his save against mindfog (costing him the chance to escape, regroup, and then attack again with a better plan- like just Gate in some allies)
Xykon doesn't miss a trick, while V misses repeatedly at point blank range, picks bad spells, and while V fails every save, Xykon makes all of his. In addition, Xykon now has previously unhinted at abilities, knowledge and powers that conveniently allow him to beat V (10th and 12th level spell slots, a 59 DC Epic Spell, An Epic or borderline Epic Item, etc). If even one or two of those things goes differently, Xykon loses. But instead every, single thing goes his way, while V acts like a moron. It is what it is.

[Skamandros]

The rejuvenating effect of the splice should have put V back to normal.

Dangerous words when dealing with fiends.

[Mage Paradox]

If we disregard the fiends verbal contract, we may as well disregard all of it. Plus I remember reading a post somewhere in which the giant confirmed V got hir spells refreshed. In which case, yeh, it was rejuvenating. Plus V's eyes aren't all messed up and trance deprived afterwards, even when the splice breaks.

[rgrekejin]

That's how I feel, yes.

As for Xykon's meteor storm, that's obviously been handwaved so it somehow missed or was evaded. It's one regretable error, but it doesn't colour the sequence of the fight (or the outcome). In contrast pretty much everything goes Xykon's way in the fight v.s V:
- V ports in with virtually no buffs or prep, even though it will take him seconds to do so before he ports in (oh, there's a trap waiting there for hir)
- V fails concentration check v.s trap
- V responds with a spell that does not affect Xykon
- Xykon is not alone, he has 3 helpers ready
- Redcloak and Xykon somehow know what soul splices are (despite them being a "once in a century" deal that V shouldn't "bother looking up")
- V finally uses a sensible spell, Empowered Sunburst. Xykon of course makes his reflect save and is not blinded (and takes less damage)
- Quickened dimensional anchor misses
- Disintegrate fails (for no clearly explained reason)
- V fails his save against mindfog (costing him the chance to escape, regroup, and then attack again with a better plan- like just Gate in some allies)
Xykon doesn't miss a trick, while V misses repeatedly at point blank range, picks bad spells, and while V fails every save, Xykon makes all of his. In addition, Xykon now has previously unhinted at abilities, knowledge and powers that conveniently allow him to beat V (10th and 12th level spell slots, a 59 DC Epic Spell, An Epic or borderline Epic Item, etc). If even one or two of those things goes differently, Xykon loses. But instead every, single thing goes his way, while V acts like a moron. It is what it is.

...and your takeaway from all this, rather than being the "V is a cocky, overconfident, egotistical ball of unjustifiable pride whose hubris makes her ripe for a downfall" that the rest of us got, was "V's actions here are somehow not reflective of the actions that V would take, because the real V is smarter than that and would never have let her pride cause her to make mistakes and squander the tools she had at her disposal?" :smallconfused:

Also, I'd like to point out that complaining about Xykon making his saves and V blowing hers is silly. Xykon is a much higher level character than V, and has much higher saves and skill checks. V is known to have no real Dex bonus for her ranged touch attacks. And finally, to top it all off, you're assuming that V should, off the top of her head, know what the ideal strategy for taking down Xykon is, which is far from a reasonable assumption. You lambast her spell choice, but what evidence do we have that V has a significant number of ranks in Knowledge: Religion, the skill she'd need to know how to effectively fight Xykon? I mean, when they first fought, V didn't even know he had a phylactery. And now she's the world's foremost expert on the weakness of Liches and how to exploit them? If she'd taken time to prepare, maybe, but she didn't. And no, that wasn't "V acting like a moron". That was V being cognizant of the fact that she's on the clock here. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0650.html)

[rgrekejin]

- Disintegrate fails (for no clearly explained reason)

Oh, by the way, the little "Deflect" here? That indicates that Xykon has a deflection bonus to AC (probably from an item). That makes his touch AC that much higher, explaining why many of V's ray spells missed.


Xykon doesn't miss a trick, while V misses repeatedly at point blank range, picks bad spells, and while V fails every save, Xykon makes all of his. In addition, Xykon now has previously unhinted at abilities, knowledge and powers that conveniently allow him to beat V (10th and 12th level spell slots, a 59 DC Epic Spell, An Epic or borderline Epic Item, etc).

So, what you're really saying is that V missed with on two touch attacks, when she has a low base attack bonus, no real dex bonus, and her opponent has an item which boosts his touch AC. That makes sense, and is entirely within expectations. You say that V picks bad spells, but there's no reason to expect her to actually have any knowledge: religion ranks to help her know what what Xykon's weaknesses are (I mean, she doesn't even think Divine magic is real magic). And it's pretty misleading to say "V fails every save, Xykon makes all his" when V failed exactly one save and Xykon made exactly one save.

Lastly - since this comic pretty much has ignored how Epic rules actually work up until this point, I don't think we can take it as a given that the Superb Dispelling we see used here is the same as the one given in the printed materials. Also Xykon doesn't necessarily need a 12th level spell slot. He may simply have the "Sudden Maximize" feat.

[Skamandros]

If we disregard the fiends verbal contract, we may as well disregard all of it. Plus I remember reading a post somewhere in which the giant confirmed V got hir spells refreshed. In which case, yeh, it was rejuvenating. Plus V's eyes aren't all messed up and trance deprived afterwards, even when the splice breaks.

The fiends promised she'd get her spell slots back. They never said anything about not being getting her usual acuity back.

[Kurald Galain]

The fiends promised she'd get her spell slots back. They never said anything about not being getting her usual acuity back.

Did you just call her a cutie? :smallbiggrin:

[The Giant]

Please stop derailing this thread's stated topic into yet another discussion of the D&D rules of the Vaarsuvius vs. Xykon fight. Consider this a Warning for the whole thread.

[Belkar<3]

V fighting remotely intelligently would have turned Xykon to dust and still done all those things.

God. I have been reading this thread for a page now, and it just makes me sick.

1. We have never seen V really do anything tactically smart. She used to be more of the: ARCANE MAGICAL POWER RULES ALL type, but now she is changing and beginning to understand things. You cannot say that she just turned stupid at the fight, because Xykon easily understands one thing: Energy Drain.

2. This is off-topic. Look at the title of this thread.

[Belkar<3]

Anyways, I really enjoy the first 50 or so comics, because they make me laugh a lot.

Also the V and O-Chul Escape was pretty amazing.

[Coldwind]

Belkar's fake character growth with illusionary Shojo while he's in coma, and afterwards showdown on thieves guild.

[Stormlock]

My 3 favourite arcs are Elan's jail > save Haley sequence, Belkar during the fight with the thieves guild, and V's whole soul selling arc. My favourite part of all has to be "Disjunction". Knowing the exact mechanics of that spell make it so much more badass: It has a meagre 1% chance per caster level of breaking an AMS. Even assuming some crazily high levels, that still leaves a very high chance it just fizzles and the dragon turns around and swallows V before saying a word. That moment took some cold iron balls +5. Especially given that dying there would leave V no possible hope of ever being resurrected, unlike Roy leaping up to fight Xykon. The fight with the dragon is by far the best part of that whole arc.

[Kurald Galain]

My 3 favourite arcs are Elan's jail > save Haley sequence,
Ah yes. That has two of my favorite lines - the "Nale! Nale! nale!!!" sequence, and "Apparently."
:smallcool:

(edit) oh yeah, and "Hell hath exactly as much fury".

[rgrekejin]

The comics that I actually have re-read the most are the ones when the IFCC make their deal with V, mostly as a result of having extensively debated their content with Forrikroder at some point or another.

The ones that I've re-read the most for pleasure are the arc that concludes with Elan and Haley getting together, and the battle in the Azure City throne room. "Land of the Rising..." gets my vote for best comic all-time.

[Morty]

I think the two strips I've re-read most often are the "Land of the Rising" and "Change of Direction" ones. More recently though, I've re-read the sequence in which Redcloak crushes the Resistance and then Tsukiko quite a few times. Especially #830, since it's the culmination of Redcloak's glorious badass fest.

[Aldrakan]

It may be a little early for this given how recently it came out, but I've read the Malack vs. Durkon fight several times now.

I think it does a great job with Malack in a lot of ways.
He fights like someone used to keeping as much as possible about himself secret, bringing out new abilities only as the situation calls for it instead of opening with his strongest moves. He talks the same way - while he freely reveals info to Durkon he does so only when it becomes a natural topic, and only because he still thinks of Durkon as his friend.
He states this explicitly later on, but you can see it when he talks about his difficulties gaining experience and his living life when Durkon suggests resurrecting him. I really enjoy his twisted perspective, how he's revealed as a monster without invalidating any of his more pleasant personality.

Durkon's shown at his finest - outmaneuvering a 200 year old opponent for a time, honorable to a fault, and depending on how this plays out, might have saved the Order even as he was dying through his last request. And also proving that the ultimate duel between clerics can be a bit more exciting, even when it is involving touch attacks.

It's also the first time I've had a wild theory here that panned out, that Malack's a snakeperson based on the way he moves when he attacks Nale. I know other people guessed that as well, but I came up with it before reading them, and I think it was indicated with enough subtlety not to count as a "well duh" moment.

And even though this isn't so relevant anymore, the fact that it came out daily certainly added to it at the time.