General E6 Advice?

[Gwazi Magnum]

So some of my friends gained interest in the E6 mechanics and are starting a group around that with me DMing it.

Now, this was also decided to be the best time to test a new kind of concept, of a more realistic medieval like world instead of magic galore.

(For those who've been the threads 'Listen/Spot check penalties or 'Magic not allowed') imagine the player built restriction of no spell trees (before the DM went in took over it), and now imagine the DM is now under the same restriction.

If you haven't:
Pretty much for another campaign our group decided we didn't like the fact the group spellcaster was able to over shadow others and resolve many challenges with some spell. And we didn't want to fix this by making everyone spell slingers, so we chose that no player would pick a class that had a spell tree and if we did then we would find variants to replace them.

Now, what happened then though was the DM for that group took this as a way to ban anything too magical 'sounding' including the changling race, drow, gnomes etc. He even banned the Spelless Ranger Variant for being too magical. This eventually led to me and one other player leaving his group, and the rest unsure of if they still want to play in it or not.

Like that (without the whole DM changing it stuff), but with a minor spell system in place to represent the small/reduced magical presence in the world.


Spell Points: Knowledge (Arcana) - 8 (Basically we added the mana point feature, similliar to how Psionics works)
Spells Known: Spellcraft - 8

Can learn Level 0 spells at: Spellcraft 9 and up
Can learn Level 1 spells at: Spellcraft 11 and up
Can learn Level 2 spells at: Spellcraft 13 and up
Can learn Level 3 spells at: Spellcraft 15 and up

Cost to cast a spell: Spells Level + 1

Now, not all spells are available, I kept it to more of a Merlin show concept where magic is restricted to stuff like telekensis, curses, blesses, bless weapon, magic weapon (which has been re-written to be an expensive/plot device spell, not a spell someone can randomly cast in the middle of a fight. Also written so getting the willing aid of a dragon helps the process along, like in Merlin how Excalibur was made with a dragons breath).

Healing spells are still in but can only be casted during non-combat times, so no instant healing in the middle of battle.


Anyways, main kinds of advice I was looking for here was stuff such as...

1. General DM/Gameplay advice in terms of the nature of E6?
2. Any ways to balance the classes some more (Monk, Fighter etc.) to not be left behind in the dust
3. How good the magic system looks and ways it can be improved
4. Any other kind of tips/advice you think may be useful

[Callin]

Why not just limit every caster to the Bard spell list?

Also sounds like a good idea.

[Rhynn]

Why not just limit every caster to the Bard spell list?

Also sounds like a good idea.

Or the adept spell list (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/resources/systems/pennpaper/dnd35/soveliorsage/npcClasses.html#adept-spell-list). Similar idea, but includes some offensive flashy spells, like lightning bolt.

[Callin]

I say Bard because of the Enchantment spells and it really seems to work for the Arthurian Styled Universe.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Why not just limit every caster to the Bard spell list?

Also sounds like a good idea.


Or the adept spell list (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/resources/systems/pennpaper/dnd35/soveliorsage/npcClasses.html#adept-spell-list). Similar idea, but includes some offensive flashy spells, like lightning bolt.

Because any single individual spell list if fully allowed presented three issues

1. There were some kinds of spells I wanted for this world which the spell tree didn't have

2. The spell tree had spells that didn't mix with the concept I had in mind.

3. Some situations like 'The town is starving' can be easily solved by 'I make food out of no where'

Below I have listed the spells put in so far to give you guys a general idea of the concept going on.

Note: Anything with additional text underneath is detailing the spell was re-written to work differently than the PHB allows.

Also if the spell is highlighted in green it means it's been altered from the PHB but in the way that it requires a time to rest/calm to perform and is not something that can be done with the snap of your fingers or in the middle of combat.


Level 0
• Cure Minor Wounds
• Ghost Sound
• Inflict Minor Wounds
• Mage Hand
Lifts object that weighs up to 5lb*Caster Level
• Prestidigitation

Level 1
• Bless
Holy Symbol required
• Bless Water
Holy symbol required
+6 spell points for a large body of water
• Bless Weapon
Holy symbol required
• Calm Animals
• Cure Light Wounds
• Curse Water
Unholy symbol required
+6 spell points for a large body of water
• Endure Elements
• Inflict Light Wounds
• Magic Missile
• Magic Weapon
Unique cost of 8 spell points.
Can only be done on a masterwork weapon.
Takes 1d20-Caster level days to do.
Consumes 2,000 gp worth of magic gems.
This enchantment is permanent, it may not
Stack with itself.
Note: An adult dragon or older is capable of
completing this spell in 1 minute but still
requires the magic gems.
• Sleep

Level 2
• Animal Messenger
At base cost it simply allows you to attach an item
like a note to the animal to deliver. For +1 spell point
(3 total) you simply whisper a magical message into
the animal and the animal delivers it to the recipient
like a recorded message. This message may only be
understood by someone else who is capable of casting
magic.
• Command Undead
Only works on a corpse. This spell raises it and turns
them into an undead. An already raised undead cannot
be controlled unless if you pay an additional spell point
and your caster level beats that of the one who currently
controls the undead. If raising more than one corpse at
once cost increases by 1 additional spell point for each
corpse affected, all affected corpses must be in the same
area or you will need to cast the spell separately for each
(base 3 cost for each then).
• Darkness
Can be used the same way it is described as in the PHB.
But for 1 additional spell point it can affect an entire
room or cave/cavern of larger size than this spell permits
to a maximum of 50 foot radius.
• Dark-vision
• Gentle Response
• Gust of wind

Level 3
• Bestow Curse
Unholy symbol required
• Contagion
• Daylight
• Remove Curse
• Remove Disease

[Rhynn]

That makes sense - it's probably best to put together a spell list from scratch, using either bard or adept spells-per-level stuff. I love custom spell lists anyway (in 2E usually).

[Callin]

That works.

IDEA!! (thought of this while trying to type what i was thinking)

Make the spells lists short, like 10 spells a level, that way you dont put an over abundance of work into the list and tax yourself since you are the DM.

Then either allow the players to research new spells to put on the list in game play OR just tell them to think of 3 spells per level that they would want and fits the theme, and place those on the list.

Then you get a huge spell list for only half the cost!

[Gwazi Magnum]

That works.

IDEA!! (thought of this while trying to type what i was thinking)

Make the spells lists short, like 10 spells a level, that way you dont put an over abundance of work into the list and tax yourself since you are the DM.

Then either allow the players to research new spells to put on the list in game play OR just tell them to think of 3 spells per level that they would want and fits the theme, and place those on the list.

Then you get a huge spell list for only half the cost!

Interesting idea, but it ultimately turns everyone into mini-sorcerers.

My spell list was made less for balance reasons (though somewhat, avoiding spamming of invisibility, fireballs, lightning etc.) but mostly for concept reasons. It's a low magic world where many kinds of magic are rare or unheared of.

Now note, I don't want stuff like fireball to be non-existant in this realm, but I don't want in the game in a way players can spam/abuse it. I also don't want to make it a 'NPC only spell' because that would be unfair to the players and imply there are people capable of things the players can never reach and that isn't what d&d is about.

But it should defelently be one of those 'after many hard years of work and practice with your magic and reaching the top of the dragons spire you have learned the secret of casting fireball' and not something like "I level up and learned fireball".

[Callin]

I didnt mean everyone can cast :smalltongue:

[Gwazi Magnum]

After re-reading your post I relized I had mis-read you.

I will defelently ask players what kind of spells they want to see added, but I'm making final calls to keep the concept alive.

[JusticeZero]

If everyone is hybrid casters at best (no classes with 9th level spells at 20 allowed), they can't get higher than level 2. That allows them to cast Fireball (level 3 spell) if they have metamagic Ritual Spell - and it takes two assistants and an hour to cast. On that ruling, you have people who cannot cast, people who will at higher levels be able to cast level 1 spells, and people who start out casting level 1 spells and who will someday graduate to level 2 spells.

[gorfnab]

Gnorman's E6 Compendium (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=215986) - Base class options for E6. (Basically you would use the base classes here instead of regular base classes).
E6 Handbook (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=6605.0)
E6 Prestige Class Guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=204298)

[137beth]

3. Some situations like 'The town is starving' can be easily solved by 'I make food out of no where'
If you can only Create Food a few times a day, it won't feed a whole village.
Even still, it is good to create your own spell lists for your desired flavor.

[8wGremlin]

look at the SRD Incantations http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/incantations.htm

Now these take time and effort to cast, and can just be the simple low level spells both divine and arcane that anyone can learn.

Anyone can learn the Invocations, you need to have the right skills and time. I've seen it work to great effect:


I often equate it to Merlin in the film Excalibur casting casting the Charm of Making - this allowed Uther Pendragon to assume the outward appearance of Cornwall so he can have sex with Igrayne - resulting in the birth of Arthur.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4I_zbi3Sak

Change Self, target other, type effect
Obscuring Mist around the castle (conjuration
Duration: about 8 hours?

Illusion, Base DC 32
Conjuration added component DC +10
Minutes to hours; DC +4
1 hour between checks DC-1
Casting time is severely restricted; (with in standing stones) DC -8
Per 2d6 points of damage (4d6 damage) DC-2
Caster is exhausted DC -2
Caster pays 1,000 XP DC-10
Expensive focus (25,000 gp) DC-2 excalibur (?) or Merlin's staff?

Knowledge(Arcana) DC 21, 8 successes so takes 8 or more hours to cast! get two checks wrong and it fails, and the caster is exhausted and takes 4d6 damage. Casting the invocations costs 1000xp.

[Stux]

I'm currently working on planning out a campaign to DM where magic is a little more manageable.

I hesitate to actually use the phrase 'low magic' as that gets people a little ranty sometimes, suffice it to say I just want to limit quite how powerful full casters get, but I still want them to access any given spell they want for their build (I don't want to ruin everyone's fun!). Basically curbing their utility.

One of the big things I am probably going to do is implement the semi-spontaneous casting system from D&D Next, with the heavily limited maximum spells per day, number of spell prepared, and limited spells known from it too. Now I'm pretty sure I'm not allowed to talk about specific mechanics from D&DN yet, but you can sign up and get the playtest materials from WotC for free anyway.

[8wGremlin]

Actually have a look at Dungeonworld (http://www.dungeon-world.com/)
Full rules for free here...http://book.dwgazetteer.com/

their caster rules are interesting



Prepare Spells

When you spend uninterrupted time (an hour or so) in quiet contemplation of your spellbook, you:


Lose any spells you already have prepared
Prepare new spells of your choice from your spellbook whose total levels don’t exceed your own level+1.
Prepare your cantrips which never count against your limit.


Cast a Spell (Int)

When you release a spell you’ve prepared, roll+Int. (1d10+int mod)
On a 10+, the spell is successfully cast and you do not forget the spell—you may cast it again later.
On a 7-9, the spell is cast, but choose one:


You draw unwelcome attention or put yourself in a spot. The GM will tell you how.
The spell disturbs the fabric of reality as it is cast—take -1 ongoing to cast a spell until the next time you Prepare Spells.
After it is cast, the spell is forgotten. You cannot cast the spell again until you prepare spells.



May be convert that, or hell, dare I suggest even play it?

[Gwazi Magnum]

If everyone is hybrid casters at best (no classes with 9th level spells at 20 allowed), they can't get higher than level 2. That allows them to cast Fireball (level 3 spell) if they have metamagic Ritual Spell - and it takes two assistants and an hour to cast. On that ruling, you have people who cannot cast, people who will at higher levels be able to cast level 1 spells, and people who start out casting level 1 spells and who will someday graduate to level 2 spells.

I can see that working, and that does fix it balance wise.

But flavour wise for this specific campaign it also makes magic very common.
In the campaign I'm running magic is meant to be a very rare and secretive thing and something that you can only cast minimal of.


Gnorman's E6 Compendium (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=215986) - Base class options for E6. (Basically you would use the base classes here instead of regular base classes).
E6 Handbook (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=6605.0)
E6 Prestige Class Guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=204298)

It's interesting.

Taking those base classes though would essentially take away the current ones which I can imagine the group not liking.
The prestige class guide is nice though, glad to see there actually is an E6 source like that.


If you can only Create Food a few times a day, it won't feed a whole village.
Even still, it is good to create your own spell lists for your desired flavor.

I know, but knowing my group they'll just find a bunch of people who can cast it and then become the wandering food drive or some ****.

Thanks though, I am looking to get a different feel for magic in this campaign than typical d&d gives it.


look at the SRD Incantations http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/incantations.htm

Now these take time and effort to cast, and can just be the simple low level spells both divine and arcane that anyone can learn.

Anyone can learn the Invocations, you need to have the right skills and time. I've seen it work to great effect:


I often equate it to Merlin in the film Excalibur casting casting the Charm of Making - this allowed Uther Pendragon to assume the outward appearance of Cornwall so he can have sex with Igrayne - resulting in the birth of Arthur.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4I_zbi3Sak

Change Self, target other, type effect
Obscuring Mist around the castle (conjuration
Duration: about 8 hours?

Illusion, Base DC 32
Conjuration added component DC +10
Minutes to hours; DC +4
1 hour between checks DC-1
Casting time is severely restricted; (with in standing stones) DC -8
Per 2d6 points of damage (4d6 damage) DC-2
Caster is exhausted DC -2
Caster pays 1,000 XP DC-10
Expensive focus (25,000 gp) DC-2 excalibur (?) or Merlin's staff?

Knowledge(Arcana) DC 21, 8 successes so takes 8 or more hours to cast! get two checks wrong and it fails, and the caster is exhausted and takes 4d6 damage. Casting the invocations costs 1000xp.

This is nice... I will defelently be looking more into this. :)


Actually have a look at Dungeonworld (http://www.dungeon-world.com/)
Full rules for free here...http://book.dwgazetteer.com/

their caster rules are interesting



May be convert that, or hell, dare I suggest even play it?

This honestly looks way to 'act your alignment or else' trap.

Making bonds the more you have the better you are?
Bonus exp for doing stereotypical acts for your alignment?

Set up for disaster.