determining the alignment of my character

[SciChronic]

Alignment has always been a tricky area for me, as i constantly think of morally grey situations in which my character would act, and so right now i'm having trouble thinking of the alignment of my next character.

Backstory-wise I intend on Sapphira Vasken(my character's true name) being a former noble whose family was accused of committing treason due to political intrigue, the Sakria family sought the position and power of the Vasken family. Because of this, her family was sentenced to death, however as a child Sapphira was smuggled out of the capital, and was thus orphaned with a name that was associated with traitors. Even though she escaped her death then, the Sakria family knew that she lived, and has hunted her down ever since to tie up the final loose end.

She quickly came to terms with his situation, and realized that she would have to bide her time and learn everything she could if she was to get revenge. She resorted to thievery as it was the only way for her to survive, and quickly got out of the country. As she grew up, she amassed a large amount of knowledge from her travels, the various people she met, and the books she stole; leading to her becoming a factotum (i assume as a noble she was taught to read, write, and speak many languages). She also changed her name to Talon, after a failed assassination attempt on her life revealed that the Sakria family was still looking for her.

Talon puts her survival above all else, she feels only she can exact revenge upon the Sakira family. Her survivalist nature leads her to keep a large amount of various gear with her so that she is prepared for almost all situations. Much of this gear comes from all over the world, gained from her various travels. Talon also feels that others are merely tools in her grand scheme to get revenge. She is not above stealing from others if it will result in her gaining strength, power, or knowledge in a field she feels insufficient in. When she is ready, she is fully intent on assassinating the entire Sakria family with her own hands.

So... what alignment would she be?

[Gerrtt]

The fact that she's not above knowingly breaking laws for personal gain put lawful anything off the table. Beyond that you still have 6 other choices to play with and your characters actions in game will dictate that. You're probably likely going to start at least neutral good, depending on how the setting views the Sakria family. Keep stealing and breaking laws though and you'll quickly start in to the deep end of the alignment pool.

[Lvl45DM!]

Chaotic Evil. No acceptance of the worth of others. Not Good. Actively seeking someones death for no reason than revenge. Not Neutral. Not wholly dedicated to herself so that rules out Neutral Evil.

[Gildedragon]

Nitpick: power of the...? Sentence is incomplete.

From her description:
Emphasis on revenge and viewing others as tools: E
Engaging in persistent theft, disillusioned by the exploitability of the law: C

What would she do if she met with a helpless Vasken scion, a child; or a family?
Would she consign another to her family-less state? Would she kill someone that had no part in her fate merely because of the name?

What would she do if a friend she made turned out to be a Vasken (distaff side, so different surname).

Would she rather see her kin restored or the Vasken dead?

[Callin]

TN - NE depending on how you act in other situations.

You are plotting the assassination of another family as revenge. If you take it all the way to meaning children so they dont come back and hunt you keeping the vengeance full circle its gonna be evil.

You have no problems stealing. Does that mean from those who can afford to be stolen from or from anyone as long as you dont get caught?

Others are only tools to be used... Yep Evil again.

So best you are looking at is TN but very very very close if not already NE.

[SciChronic]

additional info:
If she were to ever look back on her life, she probably would prefer her lifestyle now compared to as a noble. She was always of a tomboyish nature, and could not see herself in a life where she would have eventually engaged in a political marriage. though i doubt she has ever thought of such things.

She is willing to stoop rather low to meet her needs, but avoids the deaths of those not involved. More so for the fact that it attracts attention than for care for the innocent.

When in comes to the Sakria family, it is no holds barred though. She intends on bringing the Sakria family down to where they put her, and then ending them utterly and completely. In her eyes she has become the avatar of justice for her family.

[Gildedragon]

With that she shifts to NE.
Still undoubtedly E and non-lawful; but her notion of an overarching system of justice brings her one step closer to lawful.

[Krobar]

Just to nitpick one thing about the claims that revenge / retribution = evil:

Tritherion: Chaotic Good; Portfolio: Individuality, Liberty, RETRIBUTION, Self-Defense



In and of itself, revenge/retribution is not evil. Many would call it "justice." :smallamused:

I would still probably call her NE.

I now return you to your regularly scheduled thread.

[Callin]

Yeup NE.

No regard for the law but methodical in her pursuit of revenge. N
Willing to kill off an entire family, mostly innocents, in revenge. E

[ericgrau]

Indiscriminate and unlimited theft means evil. Up until that point I saw neutral. I know in a game where killing seems commonplace that theft seems like a minor offence, but it's still evil and with adventurer budgets it could become a huge detriment to others at that.

She strongly follows her own set code, which is lawful, but disregards the code of others, which is chaotic. Thus she follows rules as long as it suits here, which is neutral.

Neutral Evil.

This is tricky because it will setup all kinds of red flags in the party if they ever find out, and yet it isn't cartoon villain evil. You could work well with the party, even while exacting vengeance, until there is property you wish to obtain and then the party harmony and agreement all falls apart.

And.... I'm quintuple ninja'd. I could have saved myself some time by skimming the thread better. Missed the part where the Sakria family contains innocents too. The party may dislike that even more. You'll seem fine and helpful and a good PC in a cooperative game and then suddenly vengeance affects you and then the fights break out inside the party.

[Gerrtt]

additional info:
If she were to ever look back on her life, she probably would prefer her lifestyle now compared to as a noble. She was always of a tomboyish nature, and could not see herself in a life where she would have eventually engaged in a political marriage. though i doubt she has ever thought of such things.

Minimal impact on alignment...slight leaning towards chaotic.



She is willing to stoop rather low to meet her needs, but avoids the deaths of those not involved. More so for the fact that it attracts attention than for care for the innocent.

Neutral, at best. At least she's sparing the innocent, but not for the best reasons. Probably more evil honestly.


When in comes to the Sakria family, it is no holds barred though. She intends on bringing the Sakria family down to where they put her, and then ending them utterly and completely. In her eyes she has become the avatar of justice for her family.

Lawful Good! They are sentient beings and she's plotting assassination based revenge with the full intent of obliteration, not just death, of an entire family. Against the law and generally frowned upon...Chaotic Evil.

[Curmudgeon]

Somewhere between NE and CE.

[Man on Fire]

Sounds like true neutral or chaotic neutral, rather than any evil. Hell, maybe even a very jaded chaotic good, if people she is after are especially nasty.

And about not giving a dam about law, that doesn't stops you from beign lawful - lawul may simply follow code of honor or their personal values, they wouldn't break. I could ever see her as lawful evil.


If she were to ever look back on her life, she probably would prefer her lifestyle now compared to as a noble. She was always of a tomboyish nature, and could not see herself in a life where she would have eventually engaged in a political marriage. though i doubt she has ever thought of such things.

Suggests: Chaotic or neutral or law vs chaos axis.


She is willing to stoop rather low to meet her needs, but avoids the deaths of those not involved. More so for the fact that it attracts attention than for care for the innocent.

Still, a better side of her personality. Coudl qualify for Chaotic Good, just extremely bitter and jaded.


When in comes to the Sakria family, it is no holds barred though. She intends on bringing the Sakria family down to where they put her, and then ending them utterly and completely. In her eyes she has become the avatar of justice for her family.

That last line could as well put her into chaotic evil or chaotic good :P.
But seriously, she reminds me of Guts from Berserk, and he was clearly neutral. Look at some of his quotes and think which would your character agree with: http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Berserk_(anime)#Guts


Also, try to take this test, may be a bit of a help:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20001222b

[Pickford]

Somewhere between NE and CE.

Depends...alignment is generally more about tendencies rather than particular actions.

I'd be inclined towards saying just Neutral even. It really depends on how malicious the character is towards people she's never met.

(i.e. One can have very strong negative feelings towards those who've done them wrong, but not have their world view skewed against those they do not know)

edit: Missed the last part about other people being tools.

Neutral evil imo.

[Telonius]

She's going out of the way to settle a feud; honor and some sort of rough idea of justice (even if achieved by revenge) clearly mean something to her.

Was there any traditional or legal recourse to the Sakria situation that she could have tried? If so, did she try it? Aside from dealings with the Sakria family, does she typically resort to illegal or "dishonorable" means to get what she wants, or are the Sakrias the only "acceptable targets?"

[Devils_Advocate]

As I see it, the difference between NE and CE is how willing one is to restrain one's actions in order to avoid trouble. A Neutral Evil character avoids doing things that she can't get away with, whereas a Chaotic Evil character is not generally deterred by the prospect of conflict, and indeed may actively seek it out.

So I'm gonna go with Neutral Evil, as seems to be the consensus.


Not wholly dedicated to herself so that rules out Neutral Evil.
What do you mean by "dedicated to herself", and why do you see it as being less true of Chaotic Evil characters than of Neutral Evil characters?


In and of itself, revenge/retribution is not evil. Many would call it "justice."
Indeed. A stereotypical Lawful Good character "hates to see the guilty go unpunished". But for a Good character, punishment is about restitution and/or deterrence. Someone who happily commits whatever wrongdoings will allow her to achieve personal revenge obviously has no general regard for justice.


She strongly follows her own set code
She strongly follows consistent goals, but calling that a "code" is stretching the term past the breaking point, in my opinion. Regardless, there's nothing Lawful about being willing to do whatever it takes to achieve one's goals. I'd call pragmatism decidedly Neutral on the Law/Chaos axis.

[Man on Fire]

One question: Would she, given the opportunity, sacrifice her own life, if it would help her achieve her goal? Alternative, if placed in situation, where her goal is no longer possible, and strong threat of death, would she try one, last desperate attempt at hurting her enemies the best she can, at cost of her own life, rather than flee? If any of the answers is yes, we may probably rule out neutral evil. If both are no, I would go with neutral evil.

[ericp65]

Based on her backstory/description, I'd guess NE.

[Eldonauran]

I'm with the majority here. As described, she could be either NE or CE.

[SciChronic]

One question: Would she, given the opportunity, sacrifice her own life, if it would help her achieve her goal? Alternative, if placed in situation, where her goal is no longer possible, and strong threat of death, would she try one, last desperate attempt at hurting her enemies the best she can, at cost of her own life, rather than flee? If any of the answers is yes, we may probably rule out neutral evil. If both are no, I would go with neutral evil.

in the first case, unless it was the last person she had to kill, she wouldn't die. However if her death meant also meant the completion her quest for revenge, she would die.

in the later case, she wouldn't even let it get to that. if something was preventing her from reaching her goal, it dies or gets destroyed. otherwise her survival is paramount as her living is the only thing between vengence being enacted upon the Sakrias

[Man on Fire]

in the first case, unless it was the last person she had to kill, she wouldn't die. However if her death meant also meant the completion her quest for revenge, she would die.

in the later case, she wouldn't even let it get to that. if something was preventing her from reaching her goal, it dies or gets destroyed. otherwise her survival is paramount as her living is the only thing between vengence being enacted upon the Sakrias

Yeah, if she considers possibility of sacrificing herself for revenge, then I don't think she is neutral evil (at least I always assumed that somebody who only cares about themselves wouldn't want to die and not be able to see their goal come into fruition). I would go with True Neutral or Chaotic Neutral.

[angry_bear]

So the initial description, it sounds like most of what she does is out of necessity rather than malice or greed. Stealing to survive, and wanting to eliminate her enemies due to the fact they're still after her... Question, had the assassination plot never happened, would she still be trying to wipe out this family? And the family itself, is it more Borgia than Partridge? It'd be one thing if the majority of the family are murderous, power hungry monsters, and something else entirely if it's just one or two members responsible for all the stuff that's gone wrong in your PC's life.

I'd say at best, she's chaotic neutral. At worst either neutral evil, or chaotic evil. From what I can tell though, she's certainly not lawful, or good. With a bit of a rework, she could be chaotic good; but that's only if you make her more sympathetic towards other people who've suffered at the hands of the Sakrias.

[SciChronic]

she fully intended on killing the Sakria's prior to the assassination attempt. All it let her know is that the Sakria's still knew she was alive at the time, so she assumed an alias.

the head of the Sakria household orchestrated the eventual death of Sapphira's whole family, and she intends on making him feel the same pain she felt before taking his life. So he will be the last to die.

[Gildedragon]

How do you still have any question as to the character's alignment? Evil as sin.
I mean one could easily see this character as the villain for some other story.

Eg: (100 years from now)
Lia Sakria is a Paladin; as she is exploring she is targeted by an undead assassin because of some act her ancestors committed a century ago.

[SciChronic]

So i fleshed out Sapphira's story a bit more. I'm not much of a writer, but i felt like i needed to fully shape my character. I'ts a bit lengthy, and i don't quite think i expressed Sapphira's desire for revenge quite enough, but here's what i have written so far.
Sapphira was the daughter of Duke Kevkas and Duchess Anwyn Vasken. Always a tomboy at heart, Sapphira never felt as though she fit in at court. The attire was always itchy, she hated sitting still, and she found the whole event rather boring. But she loved her family, even her spoiled litter brothers Martin and Cedric. She loved them enough to put aside her dreams, however childish they were, and was willing to serve her family even if it meant a lifetime of sitting in court and her inevitable political marriage.

But then the Sakrias ruined everything. The Sakrias were border barons, who had little political power; but they craved it. Power was something the Vaskens had, and so the Sakrias plotted to steal it. In what seemed like an instant, everything was taken form Sapphira. Her family, her home, her name. The Vaskens had been accused of treason, and deemed guilty due to some “documents” being found within the Vasken home, and the sentence was death. Death to the entire Vasken line, their names struck from the records and annals of history, and their land given to the ones who had turned them in, the Sakrias. In reality, it was the Sakrias who had forged the document in question, and placed it within the Vasken home. In a single swift motion, the Sakrias had taken land and title form the Vaskens, and had been lauded as heroes for their vile deeds.

However there were some who believed the Vaskens to be innocent, close friends and trusted allies. These allies could not stand to see an innocent family perish, so they created a plan for the Vaskens to escape. However the former Duke Kevkas Vasken was a proud man, and he could not jeopardize his friends, and risk them being in the same situation he himself was in. In the end, Kevkas resolved to let his children escape while he and Anwyn created a distraction.

The night before their execution Sappira, Martin, and Cedric attempted to escape from the dungeon and flee the country with the help of their father’s trusted allies, but only Sapphira would survive. Sapphira witnessed the death of her brothers before her eyes as they escaped the city. A bolt struck Martin’s horse and caused it to tumble, taking Martin with it, crushing him. A second bolt struck Cedric in the back, and he died within the hour. Sapphira wept that night, as she buried her brother and vowed revenge upon the Sakrias. She would make them suffer, as she had suffered, and then she would destroy them utterly and completely.

Orphaned in a foreign country without even a copper to her name, Sapphira was forced to steal to survive. She watched the other street urchins and studied them, and learned their actions, and she was soon the best pickpocket in the area. But survival would not lead to the death of the Sakrias. Strength alone would not get her far either, as she was just a single person and the Sakrias had an army, so she resolved to learn all she could, because knowledge and cunning would be her greatest allies. Be it from the books she stole or the clerics of Mask, she soaked up knowledge like a sponge, and trained her body through stealing.

One day Sapphira happened to get away with stealing a Wizard’s spellbook, something she had attempted many times before. Magic was something foreign to Sapphira, but she saw its usefulness. Peering through the spellbook, all she saw were foreign symbols in an alien alphabet. She spent months learning what she would later know as Draconic. After learning this language, she then read through the spellbook, hoping to find a simple spell that she might have been able to use. It was on that day that Sapphira learned her inability to cast arcane magic. A simple light spell would never work no matter how hard she tried, and the closest she got resulted in the spell exploding in her face, forever turning her eyes blue.

Sapphira then devoted time to the divine arts, reading text after text. Anything and everything may have use to her in the future. She learned much during her time spent at the temple, but it was cut short. The Sakrias knew she lived and had sent an assassin after her. Sapphira would survive the encounter, barely, and would walk away with a large scar along her side. This event revealed that the Sakrias were still after Sapphira, and she would have to disappear once again if she was to survive long enough to get revenge.

She assumed the name Talon and joined various caravans. She found that spending too long in one place was likely to expose her, and there was more to learn from the world than just sitting still in a small town. In her travels she learned a variety of things from varying people and events, but she still felt that she was not yet ready. Even now the Sakrias rule the land that is rightfully hers, and Talon bides her time, waiting for the perfect moment to strike. Sappira Vasken, daughter of Duke Kevkas Vasken and Duchess Anwyn Vasken will show no pity, no remorse, and no kindness to those who had wronged her.

[Gildedragon]

I see. If asking for feedback check the spoiler, else good job.

Nitpick: she took time to bury her brother as she fled? Mourn perhaps.

How did she become stranded? If family friends helped her escape them why not disguise her and get her adopted somewhere. Not a lot of help to drop her off sans goods in some foreign land.

Any crime that leads to Damnatio Memoriae for a whole family ought to have a long trial (and corresponding investigation). It is a very ominous sentence. Why did the trial/investigation not take? Maybe the documents represented actuall views held by the family.

On that note; trial becomes a further necessity when giving the land to the whistleblowers. It is a huge reward and without a trial and inquiry how are there any families left... Anywhere. It is an obvious mechanism for acquiring wealth.

The choice to give the lands to the wwhistleblowers as opposed to the crown is especially odd if they had little political power beforehand (esp. If the good family had noticeable clout). Them having clout, and having it be increasing, is a good way to justify the land being given to them. But what do they do well to gain clout? Military prowess? Arcane potentates? Savvy merchants? Also having that family marry into the govt makes it more sensible to have them get such a big boon.

Note that while executing a whole family isn't completely rare, consigning all of it to DM is extremely odd. Esp after making such an example of them. Executing a whole lineage is really quite the show of power. Besides if erasing one person is difficult a whole clan must be all but impossible. If the govt has enough of a force to do that and the family so few allies (what's happened to all the links via marriages) DM is hardly needed.

How does her vengeance not target the system that produced such a sentence?If you want to move her up to N in the G-E axis having her fight against an an autocratic and unjust government and justice system (in addition to her {now not so} singleminded quest for vengeance) is a good way to add good to her outlook.