Help me Decide how to Gestalt Swordsage.

[Renen]

I want to make a Swordsage for a gestalt game Im joining.
I know one of the suggested ways of doing gestalt it "caster on one side", but I want to focus on fighting, and deiced not to take any casting classes.
I am going for a TWF Swordsage with 2 legacy swords.

We are starting at level 5, and so far here's what I want to take(by level 20):
10 Levels in Legacy Knight (Giving me 8 levels of progression in Swordsage)
12 Levels in Sword sage (Effectively level 20)
Psychic Warrior 2
Blood claw Master 2

Sadly, I cant take BcM before lvl 6, and Legacy Knight before lvl 5. So I am looking for help, deciding how and what to build.
Probably makes sense to start Swordsage 5//Psychic Warrior 2/Something 3

Please help me, I have never used swordsage before.

[Urpriest]

Might want to grab something that increases your BAB on the other side. Ranger, perhaps (at least a couple levels for free TWF), or Barbarian.

[Renen]

Well, I can easily get TWF from one of the two feats I get for my Psychic Warrior dip.
What else has good BAB?

What about taking those 3 levels as Wablade? Would it allow me to use Warblade's method of recovering maneuvers?

[DMVerdandi]

I want to make a Swordsage for a gestalt game Im joining.
I know one of the suggested ways of doing gestalt it "caster on one side", but I want to focus on fighting, and deiced not to take any casting classes.
I am going for a TWF Swordsage with 2 legacy swords.

We are starting at level 5, and so far here's what I want to take(by level 20):
10 Levels in Legacy Knight (Giving me 8 levels of progression in Swordsage)
12 Levels in Sword sage (Effectively level 20)
Psychic Warrior 2
Blood claw Master 2

Sadly, I cant take BcM before lvl 6, and Legacy Knight before lvl 5. So I am looking for help, deciding how and what to build.
Probably makes sense to start Swordsage 5//Psychic Warrior 2/Something 3

Please help me, I have never used swordsage before.

Well, You can't really have your cake and eat it too. You have too many levels there to actually do something worthwhile, and some of them are not optimal at all.

I would suggest

Swordsage 5/Legacy Knight 10/ Swordsage 5
//
Factotum 1/Thug 5/ Blood claw master 2/Spirit Lion totem barbarian 2/Thug 10

Drop the psychic warrior.
If you want to focus on fighting, focus on fighting. Two levels of Psychic warrior would only net you some psionic skills, and some bonus feats, which are not really worth it at this point. If you really need the point of psychic energy, just take wild talent.

Factotum nets you ALL skills.
At level 1, Pick up Able Learner so that you can purchase them as class skills.

Thug is a variant fighter with more skill points. The reason you are taking this is for the BAB and fighter feats, which will help with your two weapon fighting.

I suggested Spirit Lion totem barbarian because it grants you the REGULAR pounce, which works regardless of weapon, and is far more efficient than pouncing strike.


Now you have 15 levels of Bonus fighter feats, Decent skill points, Pounce, Full BAB, 20 levels of swordsage progession, Legacy weapons, and access to all skills.

[Renen]

Mmmm... That does look nice I assume its acceptable to take level 2 and 7 Legacy champion together with swordsage (because legacy champion doesnt progress swordsage at 2 and 7)
Alternatively that would mean 2 less thug levels. Does that change the build too much?

[Urpriest]

What's the point of Thug in that build? Swordsage has more skill points.

[Renen]

Stats I have to work with (in no particular order):
14
13
15
12
9
10

[mangosta71]

What about taking those 3 levels as Wablade? Would it allow me to use Warblade's method of recovering maneuvers?
Only for the maneuvers you pick up with those warblade levels, which you would need to keep on a separate list from your swordsage maneuvers.

What stats are you working with? Yeesh, those are pretty terrible rolls.

[Renen]

Ahh, I see... Well... Back yo thinking about it >_<

Books we cant use:
Incarnum
Tome of Magic


Yeesh, those are pretty terrible rolls.

You are telling me :-(

I kinda wonder, why can I start Legacy Champion at lvl 11, if I get Legacy Items at lvl 5 >_<

So far It seems I have

Level 1 Swordsage 1/Factotum 1
Level 2 Swordsage 2/Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian 1
Level 3 Swordsage 3/??
Level 4 Swordsage 4/??
Level 5 Swordsage 5/??
Level 6 Swordsage 6/Blood Claw Master 1
Level 7 Swordsage 7/Blood Claw Master 2
Level 8 Swordsage 8/??
Level 9 Swordsage 9/??
Level 10 Swordsage 10/??
Level 11 Legacy Champion 1/??
Level 12 Legacy Champion 2/Swordsage 11
Level 13 Legacy Champion 3/??
Level 14 Legacy Champion 4/??
Level 15 Legacy Champion 5/??
Level 16 Legacy Champion 6/??
Level 17 Legacy Champion 7/Swordsage 12
Level 18 Legacy Champion 8/??
Level 19 Legacy Champion 9/??
Level 20 Legacy Champion 10/??

[DMVerdandi]

Mmmm... That does look nice I assume its acceptable to take level 2 and 7 Legacy champion together with swordsage (because legacy champion doesnt progress swordsage at 2 and 7)
Alternatively that would mean 2 less thug levels. Does that change the build too much?
If you can, stagger the progression of legacy champion with Bloodclaw master.

At LEVEL 7 Take the first level of bloodclaw master with the second level of Legacy knight.

At LEVEL 8
Take the second level.

At level 12
You should be at legacy knight 7.
Instead of that level of thug, replace it with a third level of bloodclaw master.
This should net you full progression.

It should look like

1. Factotum/Swordsage

2.Thug/swordsage
3.Thug/swordsage

4.Barb/swordsage
5.Barb/swordsage

6.Thug/Legacy Knight

7.Bloodclaw master/Legacy Knight
8.Bloodclaw master/Legacy Knight

9.Thug/Legacy Knight
10.Thug/Legacy knight
11.Thug/Legacy Knight

12.Bloodclaw master/Legacy Knight

13.Thug/Legacy Knight
14. Thug/Legacy Knight
15.Thug/Legacy Knight

16. Thug/swordsage
17.Thug/swordsage
18.Thug/swordsage
19.Thug/swordsage
20.Thug/swordsage



EDIT: If you want to change the thug levels, that is fine.
Any full BAB class works.
MOAR barbarian
Other martial adept classes
Ranger
Sneak attack fighter
Paladin
Duskblade (AWESOME)
ect.



What's the point of Thug in that build? Swordsage has more skill points.
Hmm. You are right...
FLUFFY FLAVOR???

Sounds cooler than fighter.
Plus you can be apart of the wu-dang clan.
Also, it gives up Heavy armor proficiency, which is useless to a swordsage.

[Renen]

Also, looking it up, i dont get why i need Spirit Lion totem barbarian 2 levels? I seem to get the pounce at lvl 1?
Oh and apparently, I need lvl 10 to start Legacy Champion. (Wtf)

[DMVerdandi]

Also, looking it up, i dont get why i need Spirit Lion totem barbarian 2 levels? I seem to get the pounce at lvl 1?
Oh and apparently, I need lvl 10 to start Legacy Champion. (Wtf)

It's because I automatically added the regular lion totem acf, which requires DR, which you get at level 2. My bad. You only need one level.

So, now that I think about it, your initiator levels would still be 20, as prestige classes increase the initiator level by 1. HOWEVER, you would not get extra maneuvers and stances, but that is fine, because you get those from bloodclaw master.

Just take those two levels of BCM before you start taking legacy knight, and you should be fine.



Now, if you don't want a fighter on that one side, the other classes have a little more flavor. Of course flavor is mutable, but yeah... What kind of character development you got going on?
Is swordsage the primary and singular class you are focusing on?
Anything you are leaning towards?

[Renen]

I am leaning towards TWF. Flavor wont matter, seeing as I will only RP Swordsage and Legacy weapons.

I will be a Melee player in a Gestalt campaign, where pretty much everyone has casting. So I would prefer to be pretty strong.
Going to go look at Duskblade now, and see how it works.

From your last comment, i assume i can stick to only one level of lion totem, barb.

Also, anyone think Master of nine is worth taking?

[mangosta71]

Legacy Champion and Bloodclaw Master are both PrCs, and taking 2 PrCs at the same level is usually a no-no. But if you can't take Legacy Champ until post-10, it's easy enough to get those Bloodclaw levels in before that.

Is there anything in particular you want out of swordsage? You might get better mileage out of warblade, depending on your concept. You mentioned dual-wielding, so I assume a focus on Tiger Claw maneuvers, which warblade also gets access to.

[Renen]

I want to focus on swordsage. But Im open to taking some warblade as well.
If we arent allowed to take PrCs with other PrCs, then I can probably put in some class that has
1) Full BAB
2) 12 HD
3) Good reflex save
together with Legacy Champion Levels. I do wonder is such class exists >_<

[Renen]

I guess everyone ran out of ideas >_<
Swashbuckler might be nice...

[RaviStrife]

I know decided not to go with any full caster- but I would love to see a grizzly bear dropping sword-sage maneuvers. Failing that, are you allowed incarnum? Totemist would offer you a similar function while avoiding casting.

[mangosta71]

You can take multiple PrCs, it's just that taking two at the same level is generally disallowed. Take the levels of Bloodclaw Master that you want at 7-8, then Legacy Champion from 11-20.

Is your DM open to the idea of rerolling? Those stats are equivalent to a 26 point buy, and not even a very good one. For a dual wielding swordsage, you'll need decent STR, DEX, CON, and WIS (with those rolls probably 12, 15, 14, 13 respectively).

However, if you switch to a two-handed-wielding warblade, you only need enough DEX to avoid a penalty. If you can use a point buy, STR > CON > INT (which also synergizes very nicely with Factotum).

Edit: Also, gestalt is a wonderful opportunity to use races/templates with RHD and/or LA. A werebear warblade is FIERCE. (The grizzly comment brought that to mind.)

[Renen]

Well, I definitely want TWF and no incarnum or tome of magic.
Will have to ask if LA applies to only one side or both, as I assume that will be a big difference
Ill also ask about possibly re-rolling, but im not sure ill be allowed.

Also, any suggestions on feats?

I also tried looking around, and couldnt find a single completed swordsage handbook... Does one exist?

[mangosta71]

Given that we were offline for a week and I assume you were seeking advice for an RL game, dunno if it's too late or not...

LA and RHD typically only apply to one side. If you want a TWF swordsage, wereleopard (3RHD and 3LA for 6 total in exchange for, iirc, +6 STR +8 DEX +4 CON) could make those stats usable. You also get Pounce for free, though that's less important for a character focusing on maneuvers rather than full attacks.

As for feats, Shadow Blade and Adaptive Style are good choices for your concept.

[dspeyer]

I don't see any bear-related monsters that look really good for this. Animal rhd just aren't very good. You might do better as a barbarian/bear warrior. Granted, bear warrior and spirit-lion totem may seem to clash a little. If you want to go monster, minotaur (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/minotaur.htm) is probably a good choice: full bab, good reflex, good stats, large and only 2 la.

[Renen]

Well, so far i decided to drop the bloodclaw master, seeing as it would actually not do anything for me.

Currently I have:
Swordsage5//Swashbuckler1/PsyWarrior1/Human Paragon 3

DM allowed me to use 36 point buy for my stats, and I got
10 STR
17 DEX
16 CON
13 INT
14 WIS
8 CHA

Feats:
Shadow blade
Adaptive style
Desert Wind dodge
Weapon Finesse
Blind Fight
Two weapon Fighting

Have gloves of Dexterity and Amulet of health, bumping up my CON to 18 and DEX to 22 (Human paragon + level 4 boost + gloves)


I will probably (somehow) transition into Master of nine, and go the full way on the TWF feat tree to be able to attack same amount of times with my off hand as with my main.

[Renen]

What do you think?

[mangosta71]

Bear in mind that the TWF feat tree only benefits you if you're planning to use lots of full attacks instead of attack maneuvers. This is less of an issue if you primarily pick up counters and boosts, or if your DM allows you to use a strike as the first swing in a full attack routine.

1 level of swashbuckler only gets you weapon finesse, which is wasted if you take shadow blade. I'd recommend something else there. Possibly barbarian with the pounce ACF.

[Renen]

I will indeed be mostly focusing on full attacks. I think you are wrong on weapon finesse, seeing as it adds to attack, while shadow blade adds to damage. So now my attacks are fully DEX dependent both to hit, and do damage.

I AM going to grab one level of lion totem barbarian, to get pounce, but the first few levels, I was just filling out the feats.

[Chronos]

Those initial stats looked fine to me-- They're about typical of what you get from 4d6 drop lowest, which last I saw was the default way of generating stats, and about equivalent to 25 point buy or elite array. Just because a lot of people have Santa Claus DMs that give 30-something point buy, doesn't mean everyone needs to.

[Renen]

Actually, I see 32 point buy as being the most popular one.

[mangosta71]

Oops. For some reason I thought Shadow Blade did both.

What's your long-term goal with the non-swordsage side? I ask because going TWF ranger on that side would free up several feats, which is particularly useful if you want to go into Master of Nine.

[Renen]

Well, I am trying to use the other side to compliment the swordsage side. Going Ranger, would only give me the feat I want after tanking 2 levels.

Meanwhile, I can get feats I want for each level of the following:
Swashbuckler 1
Psy Warrior 2
Fighter 2
Rogue 2 (UA variant that grants fighter feats instead of sneak attack)

Anything else I might use?

[mangosta71]

I was actually considering 11 levels of ranger to get the whole TWF tree for free. You would also get a little bit of spellcasting (that synergizes with the medium-high WIS you want for swordsage), full BAB, favored enemies, and a few other things depending on which variant you go with. Downsides are that you're not gaining a bigger HD or any skill points, and you still have a weak will save (but you can overcome that with a maneuver).

If you start at level 5, made your first level barbarian (so you get that delicious, fat d12 hp maximized and Pounce right off the bat) and the next 4 ranger, you would start with TWF and get greater TWF at CL12, which is the first time you'll be able to take a feat after you qualify for it anyway - the flipside is that you won't get improved TWF until CL7 when you could get it at CL6 otherwise. And you'll have to use one of your actual feats to pick up Finesse. Or you could delay your TWF another level and take a Swashbuckler dip before starting your ranger progression to free up a feat.

Your outline there gives a lot of feats, which is a definite pro. If you're careful about when you take those PsyWar and Rogue levels (and your DM isn't using fractional BAB), you can get full BAB progression. And PsyWar gets some neat tricks even with the early levels. PsyWar might even be a class you want to progress further - assuming that you're not using fractional BAB, you can stagger the null BAB levels with those of swordsage so it always goes up.

Actually, going PsyWar 4 gives you access to Psionic Lion's Charge, which removes the necessity of that barbarian level...