Help me teach my players...

[Kerilstrasz]

My Players Stay Out!



Few weeks ago i started a campaign with me as DM and 4 players...
2 of them are pretty new in D&D (their 1st campaign), 1 has some 3E experience but he is the example of "i will never ever optimize my char" and usually ends up strangling to keep up with the rest group, and 1 that has a really keen mind on RPG , but his only attempts so far to built a char , are glass cannons. because of this, the latest player, often gets bored (even while in combat).

so.. with the opportunity of the 2 new players, i decided to try teach them different aspects of the game, how to be more versatile and try new things.

so basically im asking for ideas to accomplish this.
Available sources
We play 3,5 edition, because of the new players i let them use only:
PhB1 for races
Phb1, PhB2 & completes for classes, feats & spells
and UA for Class variants

Party
so.. now the party is consisted of a paladin (going to be the main melee dps), a rogue (scout/trapper built with UA variant for fighter feats), a cleric (not yet sure how he proceed but it seems he ll go healer/buffer) and a warmage (as main magic dps and occasional flanker/2ndary melee)

What i think so far..
1) to present problems that their spells/class features & strength alone can't help them bypass them.. so they ll need to go ask npcs for advice & help (i have npcs for that purpose that PCs know they are there for that reason). So by asking for help & advice they will learn more things & different ways to approach things.

2) maybe create a list of feats that each player have to choose 1 by a certain level (6?9?) [keep in mind that the campaign is very very easy and no uber built is needed]. Feats i think so far : Leadership, Craft wand, Craft wondrous, Scribe Scroll, Poison Use (im not sure if i want to introduce poison just yet though),maybe those feats from complete arcane that gives cantrips as SLA 1/day (like Night Haunt or Communicator). If i see that they dont really wonna waste the feat slot i might allow them to get it for free (afterall i want them to use those feats)
I'm ready to do the bookkeeping for them (leadership , crafts etc) until they get used to these things...

so... what do you think? how can you help me, help them learn new things that will make them enjoy the game more?

[Barsoom]

(1) I am not a fond of. Players like to have effect on the game world, they like to matter. If the only thing they can do is call an NPC to help ....

(2) I like even less. Forcing them to take certain feats because you want to force them to optimize is a horrible idea. Scratch it from your sheet of ideas, throw the sheet into a garbage bin, burn the garbage bin.

Here's what I would do: introduce an enemy with nifty skills. Things like ToB maneuvers, spells and feats they didn't consider, new classes, etc. When an enemy does something cool, the players will hopefully be intrigued... "how'd he do that?", and maybe be inspired to study these techniques themselves.
[if you do that, don't fall into the pitfall of making the enemies much cooler than the PCs, it's still about the PCs, not the enemies]

[JusticeZero]

Give them a rebuild option at some point after they've been playing awhile as they get annoyed with their builds. Help them out on the rebuild. You both will know how you want to build the character better by then.

[Kerilstrasz]

Give them a rebuild option at some point after they've been playing awhile as they get annoyed with their builds. Help them out on the rebuild. You both will know how you want to build the character better by then.

well.. that's a given.. i stated when we started the campaign that retraining rules from phb2 will always be available for them...


(1) I am not a fond of. Players like to have effect on the game world, they like to matter. If the only thing they can do is call an NPC to help ....

They will have effect.. npcs are there not to do their job for them.. but answer questions and provide tips.


(2) I like even less. Forcing them to take certain feats because you want to force them to optimize is a horrible idea.

Well .. it will be a FREE feat.. they might as well not use it.

[MrNobody]

(1) This is good, but don't force them go asking for help to NPC. You should present "problems that their spells/class features & strength alone can't help them bypass them" but that can be overcome with cooperation. Force them thinking about their ability as a whole, not as the sum of the abilities of each players. If they don't understand you can use NPC to show them the way!

(2) Don't force for feats unless it's a price for the accomplishment of something great, and even in that case it should be a feat that the players what to pick.
Or you can use "cursed feats". Talking about Leadership, you can give it to the paladin. He starts to unwillingly attract cohort or servants as a "price" for his fame and he has to take responsability of them. This can be like test from his patron deity but he must have a way to "pass" it and retrain the feats. With the arcanist you can use the feat "Draconic Familiar" from Draconomicon: i know that the warmage doesn't have a familiar, but i could be a variant for a limited amount of time. (quest hint: a newborn dragon "knocks at the door" of the PC in name of an ancient family pact asking for help from his mother in needs. The player has the feats until he accomplish the deed and the party has the quest "going to rescue a dragon"). If the dragon is saved than the PC can retrain freely the feat.

[Kerilstrasz]

(1) This is good, but don't force them go asking for help to NPC. You should present "problems that their spells/class features & strength alone can't help them bypass them" but that can be overcome with cooperation. Force them thinking about their ability as a whole, not as the sum of the abilities of each players. If they don't understand you can use NPC to show them the way!

more or less what i had in mind


(2) Don't force for feats unless it's a price for the accomplishment of something great, and even in that case it should be a feat that the players what to pick.
Or you can use "cursed feats". Talking about Leadership, you can give it to the paladin. He starts to unwillingly attract cohort or servants as a "price" for his fame and he has to take responsability of them. This can be like test from his patron deity but he must have a way to "pass" it and retrain the feats. With the arcanist you can use the feat "Draconic Familiar" from Draconomicon: i know that the warmage doesn't have a familiar, but i could be a variant for a limited amount of time. (quest hint: a newborn dragon "knocks at the door" of the PC in name of an ancient family pact asking for help from his mother in needs. The player has the feats until he accomplish the deed and the party has the quest "going to rescue a dragon"). If the dragon is saved than the PC can retrain freely the feat.

hmm.. i like the "OR" version... i ll see...

[Arc_knight25]

Only way to learn in DnD i find is to actually do it.

I would say their 1st baddies at level one should be a Kobald threat.
- Make them learn and respect the use of traps. How to combat against alot of foes at once.

Throw a bunch of encounters per day at them. Get your casters to expend their spells see how they handle not having spells. Give them a wand of cure light so no one is in any fear of dying out of combat. This will teach them to ration their spells and abilities.

I would give them the feats for free, but something they need to RP. (I.E the Paladin saves a commoner from the Kobalds. In a few levels the commoner returns to the Paladin with class levels as a cohort since he was saved by the PC and took up a class.)

The create item feats kinda suck when you have to start spending your hard earned xp.

But I still stand by the best way to learn is to play it. The players will learn what the other players classes can do just from playing with them. Then for the next campaign they may make a class that the other player had this campaign.

[KillianHawkeye]

Please explain "strangling to keep up with the rest of the group." LOL

If one of your players is strangling you, you should probably contact the police.

[Deophaun]

1 is going to end in tears. Players are notoriously thick (from the DM's perspective, it's normally that DM's are notoriously obtuse) and will somehow miss all the clues about needing an NPC and which NPC they should go with. And, some players just don't like to ask for help (and let's not mention the strong temptation to use this to introduce the dread DMPC).

2... I just don't see the point, really. And leadership is a terrible feat to give to NEW players. (You thought you had trouble figuring out how to run a single character? Now we'll give you two!)

[SciChronic]

personally i would do a campaign where the group knows each other already, and has some kind of NPC companion/advisor.

a big part is dialogue, so i would have the advisor talk with another npc, and read it out to the group. have it involve some checks and make it generally convincing that a lot can be done by the way you approach and speak to others. then give the PCs a chance to do the same in the near future.

let the advisor also possess some combat prowess, give him some kind of quirk where as he fights he treats it as a moment to teach his students (the PCs) and so he states various things like "blades from both sides are harder to dodge than 2 from the front" or "lying in wait for the perfect moment to strike, some would call dirty, I call it survival." once yo ufeel the PCs are ready have the advisor die is some spectacular fashion, making a great hook into the overall plot of your campaign.