OOTS #885 Discussion Thread

[HUMVEE Driver]

Has one been started yet?

Anyone think X and RC are illusions or otherwise fakes? Perhaps by the LG?

Things have been full of surprises lately...

The Voice of Mod: Hereby made Official.

[DaggerPen]

Yeah, I've been waiting for one, myself. Not 100% sure if you're allowed to start your own, but I can't find anything saying either way for now, so I'm going to assume that we're in the clear.

My first guess was that they were illusions, too. This was based primarily off of Xykon lacking his amulet - looking back, however, he's often not wearing it, so that doesn't necessarily mean anything.

If they aren't illusions, though, the Order is in deep ****. Hopefully the MitD will defect or something here.

[HUMVEE Driver]

*I checked the rules too; there's nothing against it. But I'm not actually starting the thread; I'm asking why it's missing. Also, I miss the discussions! If/once the real one pops up I'd have no problem with a moderator deleting this thread and/or moving these comments to the real one.

[talkamancer]

Welcome back giant. And with an opening door we bring the arc to the beginning of it's end.

[SmaugTheYounger]

Yeah, I've been waiting for one, myself. Not 100% sure if you're allowed to start your own, but I can't find anything saying either way for now, so I'm going to assume that we're in the clear.

My first guess was that they were illusions, too. This was based primarily off of Xykon lacking his amulet - looking back, however, he's often not wearing it, so that doesn't necessarily mean anything.

If they aren't illusions, though, the Order is in deep ****. Hopefully the MitD will defect or something here.

Xcykon hid his phylactery in his fortress-tomb-thingy in #833 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0833.html) - at least he thought he did. So yes, it really looks like the Order is in deep ****. If it were'nt for the fourth gate, it would look end gamey to me.

[Francis Davey]

Has one been started yet?

I couldn't see one. I wanted to say "wow". Xycon was really unexpected. Great too, but unexpected.

[Heksefatter]

Maybe that's what the runes are doing? Sort of "reading" people, to know what would throw them off-balance? Xykon popping up at the gate would surely do that trick.

[DaggerPen]

*I checked the rules too; there's nothing against it. But I'm not actually starting the thread; I'm asking why it's missing. Also, I miss the discussions! If/once the real one pops up I'd have no problem with a moderator deleting this thread and/or moving these comments to the real one.

That's fair enough. I am kind of surprised we don't have one yet - perhaps Giant just didn't get the chance to start one? Regardless, I say we discuss the update here for now, and it'll probably be merged into the official one later.

EDIT TO ADD:


Maybe that's what the runes are doing? Sort of "reading" people, to know what would throw them off-balance? Xykon popping up at the gate would surely do that trick.

Ooh, good suggestion! I thought that Xykon might be an illusion, but it hadn't occurred to me that it might be an effect of the runes.


Xcykon hid his phylactery in his fortress-tomb-thingy in #833 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0833.html) - at least he thought he did. So yes, it really looks like the Order is in deep ****. If it were'nt for the fourth gate, it would look end gamey to me.

I'm not talking about the phylactery, but about Xykon's - whatever that amulet thing he wears sometimes is. I don't know what it actually does for him. I presume it's a magic item of some sort? Anyway, Redcloak was the one who wore the phylactery, not Xykon himself.

[Francis Davey]

Ooh, good suggestion! I thought that Xykon might be an illusion, but it hadn't occurred to me that it might be an effect of the runes.

My brain is slow early in the morning. It just hadn't occurred to me that Xykon might be an illusion (and the runes of course having some connection to it). That would make things slightly less dire.

[KillingAScarab]

Maybe that's what the runes are doing? Sort of "reading" people, to know what would throw them off-balance? Xykon popping up at the gate would surely do that trick.On the one hand, it doesn't seem like Girard's bag to read people's minds. On the other hand, he was charged with protecting the entire world. Still, why wouldn't the message in the desert have used such a technique?

[HUMVEE Driver]

Maybe that's what the runes are doing? Sort of "reading" people, to know what would throw them off-balance? Xykon popping up at the gate would surely do that trick.

+2

I hadn't thought of that!

[DaggerPen]

Okay, I swear I remembered seeing Xykon with some type of amulet at some point in the story, but if so, he must not have worn it for very long, because I cannot for the life of me find it. So that's definitely not an indication of whether he's an illusion or not.

[B. Dandelion]

O board have I missed thee! And great comic, that definitely answers the "how could things get any worse" question.

I figured the are-they-illusions-or-not discussion would be the main topic. If Xykon and Redcloak are, say, based on the fears of the Order conjured up by the mysterious "there is no secret message" runes, there might be subtle details wrong about them due to circumstances the Order doesn't know about -- like Redcloak's missing eye, which we could note is jusssst out of panel.

Although I sort of lean towards them being the real deal. Yeah, they're screwed, but maybe Xykon won't start blasting right away and forcecage them or something. In a way, they're better off without Vaarsuvius, since I suspect Xykon remembers her better than he does Roy...

[Heksefatter]

On the one hand, it doesn't seem like Girard's bag to read people's minds. On the other hand, he was charged with protecting the entire world. Still, why wouldn't the message in the desert have used such a technique?

A possibility is that it is sort of an "artifact." A last line of defense. Even Girard and his clan can't just make this. It is something that has taken years. It would make some sense to have defenses that kick in, even if the the entire Draketooth clans is taken out.

[Conte_Vincero]

I'm thinking illusion, as if he teleported straight inside the pyramid, then surely he'd teleport to the gate room, rather than somewhere random inside, and that the Illusion is working similar to a Harry Potter Boggart that assumes the form of the viewer's worst fear.

[skaddix]

Well hopefully they are fake or the order is in trouble

[thatSeniorGuy]

Okay, I swear I remembered seeing Xykon with some type of amulet at some point in the story, but if so, he must not have worn it for very long, because I cannot for the life of me find it. So that's definitely not an indication of whether he's an illusion or not.

You're probably thinking of Dorukan's headband which Xykon pilched; I believe the only time Xykon wore it is when he cast Cloister on Azure City.

Or you could be referring to the amulets that Recloak gave to Xykon's duplicates in the attack on Azure city.

[factotum]

It actually never occurred to me this might be an illusion, but that would certainly explain why Redcloak is enough off panel that we can't see his other eye--him still possessing that would tip us off it's an illusion immediately.

If he has the patch on in #886? The Order are *so* screwed...

(As for the thread not being up, I suspect the forum elves got everything working at a time when Rich is either busy or asleep--he hasn't announced the site being back up on Twitter either, which kind of suggests he isn't available right now for some reason).

[DaggerPen]

You're probably thinking of Dorukan's headband which Xykon pilched; I believe the only time Xykon wore it is when he cast Cloister on Azure City.

Or you could be referring to the amulets that Recloak gave to Xykon's duplicates in the attack on Azure city.

It's not the amulets the fake Xykons had, but I swear I remember a discussion thread for that talking about how Xykon's amulet looked different vs. that he had an amulet when he didn't usually?

I don't know. I have no idea where I got this from. Maybe I'm thinking of some discussion about the phylactery and confused it with the fake Xykons' amulets. *shakes head*

Anyway, point is, whatever I'm remembering, I am definitely not remembering correctly.

Xykon does currently look right, but it's hard to say about Redcloak. I looked when this comic first came out and couldn't see if he had his patch or not. So if he comes into view with both eyes, he's definitely an illusion. If he comes into view and only has the one eye, I suppose it could still be an illusion, but it's unlikely.

Also, bonus points if the Sending about Xykon being on the way reaches them on the next page.

[SmaugTheYounger]

Okay, I swear I remembered seeing Xykon with some type of amulet at some point in the story, but if so, he must not have worn it for very long, because I cannot for the life of me find it. So that's definitely not an indication of whether he's an illusion or not.

You are right, Xykon does'nt wear his phylactery. For the amulet, I think Xykon's three decoys in the battle of Azure City wore an amulett, so Redcloak could better differentiate between them.

[edit] ninjad.

[thatSeniorGuy]

Also, bonus points if the Sending about Xykon being on the way reaches them on the next page.

I want this to happen so much :smallbiggrin:

[5tephen]

I remember ages ago when Rich wouldn't always be able to post the new comic thread straight away he didn't mind someone else starting it. He said so.

And Illusion? Nah: end of this plot arc - that's definitely the REAL Xykon et al. So predictions: it looks like Nale will arrive with his posse just in time to get in the way of Xykon killing them all. BIG Broo-ha-ha. Then V will turn up and hustle the Order all out of there.

[DaggerPen]

I remember ages ago when Rich wouldn't always be able to post the new comic thread straight away he didn't mind someone else starting it. He said so.

And Illusion? Nah: end of this plot arc - that's definitely the REAL Xykon et al. So predictions: it looks like Nale will arrive with his posse just in time to get in the way of Xykon killing them all. BIG Broo-ha-ha. Then V will turn up and hustle the Order all out of there.

I dunno. While we're definitely nearing the climax of this arc, I could also see this being a fakeout, then the Linear Guild arriving, and then Xykon arriving into the huge mess.

Or, you know, he could just walk straight through a door into the Order and terrify the living hell out of us all. Hard to say.

If that is the real Xykon, though, I think we might be looking at an MitD defection. The main catch with that is that a MitD reveal feels more like something for the final gate.

[Diadem]

I was already starting to wonder when we'd see Xykon again.

My prediction: The next few strips will be a flashback to what Xykon has been doing in the meantime, perhaps even some cutscenes to other characters, leaving this current tension to build up for a while.

[Bulldog Psion]

I have a feeling it's really Xykon, for several different reasons.

1. He was last seen heading in this direction, so he's got to get here sometime.
2. Why would the theorized "illusion runes" conjure an illusion of Redcloak? The Order barely knows him as a briefly-seen background mook. Most of the people who know how dangerous he really is are dead.
3. This book has to wrap up sometime. Introducing another tangent of illusions might make it too long, since Xykon STILL has to show up.

[Mike Havran]

I have a feeling it's really Xykon, for several different reasons.

1. He was last seen heading in this direction, so he's got to get here sometime.
2. Why would the theorized "illusion runes" conjure an illusion of Redcloak? The Order barely knows him as a briefly-seen background mook. Most of the people who know how dangerous he really is are dead.
3. This book has to wrap up sometime. Introducing another tangent of illusions might make it too long, since Xykon STILL has to show up.

I do hope this is not Xykon, because I don't see then how the Order would both survive and retain any credibility as heroes. Mass Hold Person. Implosion.

1. True, but I do expect Eugene to appear with the warning
2. Maybe that's why we see only part of him and it might be revealed he's not "accurate"? Anyway, both Haley and Belkar knew, or at least had a good idea about his importance. With Elan, they saw him riding on that big monster elephant in the AC anyway. They know he's Xykon's lieutenant.

On the other hand, my arguments why this is not Xykon

1. If Xykon was able to teleport directly to the Gate according to the coordinates, why is he approaching the Order from the other side, leading from the dungeon? And if he wasn't able, how come he's in the pyramid?

2. It would suck terribly for the Order

:xykon: You guys are so lame you can't handle one batch of wannabe villains and you get crippled instead? Can't we get stronger heroes, Red-eye? No? Shuck. Okay, you little kids wait here and let papa Xykon clean the mess for ya.

[Doctor Foreman]

Well hopefully they are fake or the order is in trouble

I like how the Order is so thoroughly screwed right now that we've just gotten used to the background level of FUBARitude and just say "they're in trouble" when Xykon shows up. Putting things in perspective, they were "in trouble" like sixty strips ago.

[redbeard]

Ok, I hadn't thought of it being an illusion, but now that I have, one thing stands out:


Xykon actually remembering Roy would only happen in Roy's mind.

That and Red Cloak being JUST off scene really tips the scales for me that yes, this is an illusion of what Roy fears most (also a trope, so three reasons.)

[ti'esar]

I kind of hope this is the real Xykon, just because you know some nit is going to come crawling out of the woodwork to call it a "deus ex machina" if it's an illusion. Although I suspect the same thing would happen with any of the possible ways for the Order to get out of this if it is the real thing.

But in all seriousness, I can't decide. I had thought the lack of any magical effects ruled out an illusion - or at least one being created by those runes - but now I think that maybe blocking such an effect from sight could be part of any illusion.

On the other hand, this is already likely to be the longest book in OOTS, and I can't see what a fakeout really brings to it besides one cliffhanger or two.

[_Jarlaxle_]

Well last time Xykon didn't want to kill Roy but set him down on the ground so they could have an interesting fight later when Roy has much more levels.

So maybe he tries to help them again :smallwink:

:xykon: "The cleric of your little adventuring party got vampirized? No problem reddie here will destroy and raise him if we see him on our way and then send him to you so you can go on adventuring. See ya"


:smalltongue:

[Macros]

It's hard to tell, really.

On one hand, this is really coming out of the blue. Xykon being an illusion would explain how he randomly pop up here.

On the other hand, I'm not sure Redcloak would be included in such an illusion. The Order actually knows very little about him, I'm not even sure Roy noticed him at some point. Haley and Belkar are a bit more knowledgable about him (having lived under his rule), but... I don't know.

I can't help but think that, while this being an illusion is the most credible explanation, it would be kind of a let-down. So I guess I'll just wait and see how this turns out.

[thereaper]

Some things worth noting which could imply it being an illusion:

- The Order is (presumably) moving towards the Gate. Why would Xykon and RC be walking away from it?

- Xykon didn't remember Roy last time (after Roy had destroyed his body). Why would this time be different?

Not to say it definitely is one, but the potential hints are there.

[factotum]

2. Why would the theorized "illusion runes" conjure an illusion of Redcloak? The Order barely knows him as a briefly-seen background mook. Most of the people who know how dangerous he really is are dead.


That's not true. Haley and Belkar spent three months in Azure City under Xykon and Redcloak's rule, and are fully aware how powerful--and how dangerous--he is. Roy will have got some of that knowledge from his time spent as a ghost around them. As for Elan, he was present on the docks when Redcloak one-shotted Hinjo with a Disintegrate, I think he's well aware of the danger there!

[thereaper]

Also, judging from this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0828.html), this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0829.html), and this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0830.html), it appears that the green band actually goes a little bit over the ear. In those pages, if you can see where the ear connects to RC's head, you can see the green band (if not the eyepatch itself). Even if you stretch the image of RC in 885 to be more visible, there is no such green band. Not even a hint of one.

Of course, it's also entirely possible that Rich simply didn't want to put that much detail into such a tiny fraction of a small face (or RC is facing the other way as he walks forward). So this is far from definitive.

[Chameleon]

It could be a Star Wars-like "Face your worst fear" kind of illusion.

No doubt Roy's worst fear would be running into Xykon at the gate..

[Mandelbrot]

If the worse possibility turns out to be true and Xykon indeed isn't an illusion, then short of the LG walking in on the scene causing sufficient mayhem for the Order to escape (which I don't really see as happening since last we saw them, they weren't advancing) I have another hypothesis on how our heroes might survive.

Unfortunately I have no idea how Girard could've pulled something this off, however...

The Order are currently without their two magic users, a great tactical disadvantage as Roy earlier noted. They have just walked in on two of the strongest magic users in the world. Any real threat to the gate involves magic somehow.

Is it possible that the runes negate magic?

If so, then Xykon is going to be very happy about any racial bonuses he has, because they're his only hope of surviving the encounter. Considering the great misfortunes the Order has suffered recently, they're due for an upset in their favor, don't you think?

But again, I have no idea how feasible the mechanics of this are.

[Quild]

That's not true. Haley and Belkar spent three months in Azure City under Xykon and Redcloak's rule, and are fully aware how powerful--and how dangerous--he is. Roy will have got some of that knowledge from his time spent as a ghost around them. As for Elan, he was present on the docks when Redcloak one-shotted Hinjo with a Disintegrate, I think he's well aware of the danger there!

Good call.

I quickly thought about an illusion and the runes being somehow related to that.
Especially since I do not see how Xykon could already be behind the heavy protected door and heading wrong way.

What I wonder is the purpose of such illusion. Is the order suppose to run away? To fight against it... until realizing it's an illusion?

Also I wonder if the runes could be some kind of protection runes, say against undeads per example.

[AJ_Impy]

The thought occurs that a party shorn of its arcane caster, cleric and non-humanoid sidekick is now face to face with an arcane caster, cleric and non-humanoid sidekick.

And is about to be attacked by fiends acting as meatshields for a bunch of cunning spellcasters.

Wacky teamup hijinks, anyone?

[Coat]

(1) I would LOVE to see the illusion of what Tarquin fears most.
(2) Spotting that this is an illusion would be a great way to demonstrate the OotS's capability, even short of primary casters. Would be especially interesting if the person who makes the spot is both proficient in illusions, and generally under-rated...
(3) A trap that generates an illusion of their worst fears could be a very good/interesting way for OotS to turn the tables on Team Tarquin.

But who knows!

[davidbofinger]

I kind of hope this is an illusion because I really want to see a five-way fight between Team Evil, the Linear Guild, the Bleedies, the Order of the Stick and the dead hand of the Draketooths.

If the next person into the room after Redcloak is Tsukiko, then we know it's an illusion. Right now they're walking the wrong way is the only in-comic supporting evidence I see. The out of comic evidence is arguably stronger.


Haley and Belkar spent three months in Azure City under Xykon and Redcloak's rule, and are fully aware how powerful--and how dangerous--he is. Roy will have got some of that knowledge from his time spent as a ghost around them. As for Elan, he was present on the docks when Redcloak one-shotted Hinjo with a Disintegrate, I think he's well aware of the danger there!

Plus they have O'Chul's appreciation (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0670.html).

[ti'esar]

If the next person into the room after Redcloak is Tsukiko, then we know it's an illusion. Right now they're walking the wrong way is the only in-comic supporting evidence I see. The out of comic evidence is arguably stronger.

There's also Redcloak's missing eyepatch. I've tried blowing up his head, and thereaper is right - part of it should be visible, and it isn't. It's not 100% proof, but it's fairly suspicious.

[DougTheHead]

Yeah, I'm guessing illusion- I think in the next comic we'll see that Redcloak isn't wearing an eyepatch, so we'll know it's an illusion drawn from the Order's collective minds, but they won't know that.

[Blaknic]

Well, maybe Redcloak just lost his- Team Evil went to the gate to ask to borrow Elan's. They'll leave soon.

[ooOoo]

I thought the runes were hiragana at first... but they're not.

[Sapreaver]

I think the biggest proof that it's an illusion is that he remembers Roy. X didn't even remember Roy after he was destroyed by him. Why would X remember him now several months after Roy had died.

[Lemarc]

Other points aside, walking in "the wrong way" isn't evidence of anything. They're in a dungeon, not - presumably - a straight-line corridor leading directly to their goal.

[Werbaer]

How exact would the coordiantes be recorded? One meter? 10 meters? In #691, Roy states that the coordinates he got indicated an area of about one square mile. It's accurate enough that their (team evil) teleport ended within the pyramid; i wouldn't expect them to land immediately aside the gate.

I assumed the gate could be behind the wall with the runes, and the runes protecting it. Since the runes on the door triggered spells, this could be the case, too; only that the trigger might be spells cast in that area.

[Sunken Valley]

100% sure Xykon is an illusion. Those runes on the wall are doing something. They are giving the order their worst fear. Roy, Haley and Elan would all at this point fear Xykon. We don't see Belkar's reaction.

[recluso]

Maybe Xykon and Redcloak just caused the autodestruction of the 36th (fake) Gate and are on their way to the 37th?

They started with the most likely place: in the center. Now they explore the other possibilities.

[Bagger Baggins]

The thought occurs that a party shorn of its arcane caster, cleric and non-humanoid sidekick is now face to face with an arcane caster, cleric and non-humanoid sidekick.

And is about to be attacked by fiends acting as meatshields for a bunch of cunning spellcasters.

Wacky teamup hijinks, anyone?

I love this idea. Also, kudos to Giant for putting up a new comic even when the website was down. And the crayon-drawn front page was the funniest thing I've seen in a long time. Maybe keep it posted somewhere?

[gorocz]

Well last time Xykon didn't want to kill Roy but set him down on the ground so they could have an interesting fight later when Roy has much more levels.

So maybe he tries to help them again :smallwink:

:xykon: "The cleric of your little adventuring party got vampirized? No problem reddie here will destroy and raise him if we see him on our way and then send him to you so you can go on adventuring. See ya"


Would Xykon/RC recognize the four of them as friends of V's? I'm pretty sure they would be both pretty pissed off at V because of the whole phylactery thing, but would they even connect the rest of the order with hir? Back in Dorukan's dungeon, V was in the back the whole time, in Azure city, Xykon only met Roy and RC didn't meet any of them. They could remember hir from the TeeVo but I don't think they made the connection when V was all dark and spliced, especially when RC had to recall a moment after V lost the black...

So, X/RC might not recognize the order as V's companions, but if V showed up after the "friendly" banter, X would be really mad...


And the crayon-drawn front page was the funniest thing I've seen in a long time. Maybe keep it posted somewhere?

Gotta agree with that :-)

[warmachine]

I'm going with the illusory Xykon for story reasons. If Xykon is real, he'd easily wipe out OotS, making an unsatisfying end of the comic. If Roy has a trick to disrupt Xykon's spellcasting, the battle would be a repetitive use of it and that's boring. A battle between Belkar/Elan/Haley and Redcloak could be epic but can't make up for a boring main event. Xykon could tell OotS to come back when they're higher level but that's unlikely when Roy chopped up his cool, undead dragon ride. As well as being boring.

Whereas an illusory Xykon creates tension that is resolved quickly in a few panels of exposition. A mere filler but we know Rich is a good writer. I reckon it's to explain the gate's final defence of epic spell-based mind games where neither pride, sanity or team cohesion are left intact.

[Caivs]

Another indication that it might be an illusion is the dialogue prior to that, about the runes. It seems to imply the runes have an unknown use, and it'd make sense to be illusions.

But I do think they're the real ones...Too much time has passed to introduce another encounter that would serve no real purpose, the arc has to end someday

[Roland Itiative]

The thought of Xykon being an illusion didn't come to me until reading this thread. Still, I'm not sure.

He's heading the wrong way? Maybe. But there is a possibility that:

a) Serini's diary didn't have a lot of information on the layout of the pyramid, so Xykon and Redcloak have no idea where the Gate is either. That would also explain why they teleported to a random spot on the pyramid, rather than right besides the Gate.

b) The Order is going on the wrong way. They don't know for a fact that corridor leads to the Gate, maybe it leads to some other location that would require heavy defences.

c) Xykon and RC have indeed already reached the Gate, and now they're wandering so they can get to know the place they'll call home for the next few weeks until they complete the ritual, strengthening their defences and getting rid of any opposition. It would be stupid to just start the ritual right away, just to get interrupted later, and Xykon knows every Gate has a guardian.

[Chantelune]

I'm thinking illusion as well, or something along the line, but can't say I'm 100% sure.

If it's the real deal, though, don't see how the order can hope to survive this one, even if V join them. They're in no shape to deal with an epic lich, both physically and mentally.

But then again, if its really Xykon, why would he come out of the Gate Room ? He should be bunkering in and get started with his ritual, not taking a stroll around.

[ReaderAt2046]

If the worse possibility turns out to be true and Xykon indeed isn't an illusion, then short of the LG walking in on the scene causing sufficient mayhem for the Order to escape (which I don't really see as happening since last we saw them, they weren't advancing) I have another hypothesis on how our heroes might survive.

Unfortunately I have no idea how Girard could've pulled something this off, however...

The Order are currently without their two magic users, a great tactical disadvantage as Roy earlier noted. They have just walked in on two of the strongest magic users in the world. Any real threat to the gate involves magic somehow.

Is it possible that the runes negate magic?


And Roy refusing to let Elan use his bardsong (the only magic the party has just now) would keep from revealing that!

[gellerche]

(1) I would LOVE to see the illusion of what Tarquin fears most.


Isn't it obvious?

Paternity lawsuits!

[DaggerPen]

Actually, the anti-magic field idea is interesting, too. We've seen that concept several times in the comic before, though never with any runes backing them up. Still, stylistic variations, and it could be an epic anti-magic field to keep Xykon from spellcasting, too. The main catch with that is that it doesn't seem like Girard's style - he was so focused on trust and misdirection. Why slap up an anti-magic field when you could do a permanent epic illusion instead?

[internisus]

Ooh, I didn't see this thread. Here's what I just posted in the one for 884:


I'm calling illusion. We know Girard was an illusionist, we don't know what the runes do, this is an illusion.

I highly doubt that Rich would employ such a fake-out during a comic's last panel. He doesn't jerk the reader's chain like that; it's impossible for me to imagine that the first panel of 886 will amount to "Just kidding!"

My opinion is bolstered by the fact that Xykon's coming to Girard's Gate has been foretold; we've been expecting him. For him to arrive in such a mundane manner, without the fanfare of acid magic attacks from the air or what have you, is exactly the right kind of subversive for Rich. For him to seem to arrive when he's been expected but turn out to be an illusion that startles an already deeply worried reader and Order makes no sense.

It's possible though a bit of a stretch that an illusion would provide the Order with a tool to use against the Linear Guild if they could figure out how to harness it for themselves, but for the illusion to be Xykon and Redcloak is still unnecessary from a storytelling perspective. It would seem like a cheap gotcha jump scare, and it would diminish their actual arrival later on. So I think that this is exactly what it seems to be: Team Evil wandering through Girard's dungeon and happening to run into our gang.

What happens next is sure to be interesting. My guess is that Roy will immediately charge Xykon but that Xykon actually wants to talk. I'm thinking that he's aware of the Linear Guild's presence and just doesn't want to deal with them, especially after being weakened by a certainly beatable but not insignificant Order of the Stick. Seeing the weak position that the Order is in, he might be right if he surmises that they can't say no to a temporary truce while combating a common enemy. Cue panels of Redcloak begrudgingly healing our protagonists while muttering some snarky complaint.

[Ellye]

If this is an illusion, and if its based on the memories of the Order, then Redcloak won't have his eyepatch.

Considering that Redcloak was conveniently not fully shown in the last panel, I'm guessing that his is indeed an illusion.

But might serve as a dire reminder for the Order that Xykon is getting close... anytime now.

[Dr. Gamera]

(As for the thread not being up, I suspect the forum elves got everything working at a time when Rich is either busy or asleep--he hasn't announced the site being back up on Twitter either, which kind of suggests he isn't available right now for some reason).

I am guessing that he was indeed "asleep", as the forum appears to have returned in the middle of the night Eastern Time in the USA.

[Dr. Gamera]

the mysterious "there is no secret message" runes

Spoiler for deciphering the runes.

Ah, that's what they say, "nosecretmessage".

[FlawedParadigm]

I'd call illusion if not for the fact that Xykon specifically is showing recognition of Roy immediately for the first time. That, and I've been trying to remind people for a month that Xykon was supposed to be showing up any moment now. I can't readily balk when it appears to be the case.

Also, I'm hearing Xykon's voice as "Ah, crap. Not another lecture from a do-gooder."

[Seppl]

Does anybody have an idea, what the runes say? It's a repeating sequence of 15 characters, 10 of which are different. The sequences are separated by the rune that looks like an apostrophe which I think marks the beginning/end of the sequence. Assigning the first 10 letters of the alphabet to the runes it reads:

ABCDEFDGHDCCIJD

Looks like a simple substitution cipher to me. But it is not long enough for me to solve it by statistical analysis. The double 'C' suggests that it might be a consonant. The frequency and position of the D might indicate a vowel, possibly 'e'. C and D are the only runes appearing more than once, making this puzzle especially hard.

I tried some simple D&D spell names, but due to my lack of knowledge about D&D spells all I can say is, it is not "symbol of fear":smallsmile:.

The runes themselves almost look like Latin or Greek letters. Maybe it's not a cipher but just a very hard to read font?

Any other suggestions?


P.S.: I know that the Giant has used fake secret messages in the past. But those messages were still decipherable. The runes are explicitly pointed out to the reader, suggesting there really is a message to be found here.

edit: Ninja'ed! Yet again, there is no secret message :smallwink:

[chopswil2]

with no spell-casters, the order of the stick will have to team up with the liner guild to fight Xykon

[Geordnet]

I'm betting they're epic-level illusions, cast by Girard himself.

[gerryq]

Varsuvius is likely to turn up at any moment.

And/or the Linear Guild.

Xykon doesn't know he has to kill the four he sees in a hurry, so I guess he will talk - if only to see if they will let slip some clue about where exactly the Gate is.

[quasit]

Hmnnn... First I thought it was just an illusion, could be a Weird spell and as Xikon is totally everyone's most feared foe, the killing effect manifest in a image of him along with his party; Elan not having a frightened look on his eyes that roy and haley have made me thought that he suceeded at disbeliebing (illusions are on his skillset).
But then it comes to me that Xikon's got not much screentime on this arc, but on the few strips we've seen him, the idea of him appearing unexpectedly at girard's was looming over them. So it seems likely after all.
Now I wonder how did he managed to get so far unnoticed. Maybe his pit stop was really brief, or the action shown at 830-3 happened quite a bit before the order/LG arrival at windy canyon.
Or maybe MiTD just ripped his way thought the pyramid by sheer brute force :smalleek:

[The Guardian]

There is another alternative... they could be illusions and real at the same time!

What I mean is that the pyramid could be taking two different sets of intruders who are in different locations and making them think they are fighting each other. Each will perceive the other as illusions.

Not sure what the endgame is there... probably just to distract them long enough so that the (now-dead) defenders can jump in and finish off the intruders.

[B. Dandelion]

I'm on the fence about it being an illusion. It seems plausible enough, but hardly impossible that Team Evil is real either. I think I sort of want them to be the Real McCoy because honestly I'm tired of waiting for them to arrive onscreen, but there might be some mileage to be had out of, say, observing how the Order reacts to a convincing illusion of certain doom. Roy in particular, since Durkon's death is weighing on him so heavily and he's kind of not being the world's greatest leader right about now. If his response is to do something completely stupid, an illusory Xykon would be a way to let us observe the full effects guilt and grief are having on his decision-making capacity without having to endure the actual devastating consequences it would have had if Xykon were the real deal.

[factotum]

Not sure what the endgame is there... probably just to distract them long enough so that the (now-dead) defenders can jump in and finish off the intruders.

It's an interesting theory, and it would actually work quite well--let the invaders burn their spells attacking illusions, making them weaker for the Draketooths to mop up.

[TRH]

I would be downright angry if this Xykon was fake - that would be the epitome of cheap jump-scares. Besides, we know Xykon will be showing up eventually; do we really want to be saying "Team Evil - for real, this time!"? No, that would just take all the thrill out of their appearance.

That said, I'm guessing that Xykon will forcecage them and call it good - he knows there's another Gate left after this one, so this still isn't do-or-die time. If V were here, then it would be another story, but that not being the case, he could care less about some impotent do-gooders.

[chazisop]

Guys, it is not runes, it is just a weird font.

It reads "Men that stare at goats" (the stare and goats is quite visible in the first panel, the that in the third one).

I guess that might point towards an illusion, or maybe not, if you have seen that movie. So I think the Giant is making fun of us.

[DaggerPen]

Spoiler for deciphering the runes.

Ah, that's what they say, "nosecretmessage".

... wait, that's really what they say? How'd you figure that out?

[R-Group]

Not sure if it has been mentioned yet, but I really think the fact that RC's face is covered by the final panel is an indicator of illusion. Roy (and by extension, the party) have always wanted/believed that Xykon would recognize them, and so as an illusion he is doing so - since this illusionary Xykon might well be formed off their understanding of him.

However, the last time any of the OOTSers saw RC was back when Vaarsuvius attacked Xykon's tower, but even then he/she was unconscious/delirious while RC used Word of Recall to escape. Since then, none of them have seen Team Evil, and I don't believe O-Chul told anyone that he had gouged out the goblin's eye, only that he had attacked him. Thus, I put forward the idea that we will know whether or not Xykon is illusionary depending upon the eyes to *******s ratio of the Supreme Commander.

At least, that's my personal theory.

[TheWombatOfDoom]

Don't forget to put a smiley for the thread symbol! :smallwink: I'd recomend :smalleek: because of the last panel.

[Tragak]

Actually I think that, while seeing RC correctly would make them real and seeing them incorrectly would make them an illusion, seeing him obscured means that we don't know if they're an illusion.

[Terbovus]

Given that :roy:just said 'no complaining' and :xykon: very definately did just complain, I'm looking forward to a Lou Ferrigno moment...


I!
SAID!
NO!
COMPLAINING!!

'WHAP!'


He does have some tension to work out after all.
:smallwink:

(see #114)

[Rorrik]

Anyway, Redcloak was the one who wore the phylactery, not Xykon himself.

Red Cloak doesn't wear the phylactery anymore, but the Order doesn't know that. If it is indeed an illusion, Red Cloak will have the phylactery on when he comes through the door, I suspect the Giant purposefully left that part of him unseen.

However, I don't think it is an illusion. I just don't know how the Order is going to get out of this one. Bluff their way into Xykon's inner circle?

EDIT:

Neither "men that stare at goats" or "not secret message" is the right length, I don't think (I suppose a rune could be more than one letter). We can see the whole phrase and some in panels 1, 4 and 6, thanks to the silence.

[jidasfire]

I'm going with this probably being an illusion. After all, Xykon coming into this scene pretty much overrides everything going on and spoils every bit of the tension of the Order vs. Linear Guild throwdown.

My question to the people who think an illusion at this point would be a copout is, what did you expect to happen? This is a temple of illusions. Do we really think that there were never going to be any actual illusions in this place? Every Gate has had some epic power surrounding it in one form or another. Why should this place be any different, and why wouldn't it be an illusion? Redcloak himself said that Girard was capable of the most cunning illusions ever devised. And maybe, once the Order figures it out, they can find a way to use it against the Linear Guild. I really don't see something that the text all but spells out for us being a bad move.

[RickDaily12]

Given that :roy:just said 'no complaining' and :xykon: very definately did just complain, I'm looking forward to a Lou Ferrigno moment...


I!
SAID!
NO!
COMPLAINING!!

'WHAP!'


He does have some tension to work out after all.
:smallwink:
:roy: Xykon, do you WANT to get hit with the Big Metal Stick again?!

:belkar: That's what HE said!


Anyways, I see the Order being screwed royally both ways by this comic. Suppose for a second that the Xykon encounter is an illusory double.

First off, the Order has to induce that what they see is not actually real. Roy is on the verge of Heroic BSOD and the rest of the Order is hardly any better. Something emotional is bound to happen at the end of it. And as many others have pointed out, after having realized that the image is not real, while it gives the team a "OK, this is what we DON'T do the next time we bump into Xykon" kind of gag, it does just remind everyone that Team Evil will arrive at any random moment, and they aren't exactly wanted to bump into the Order first... so this would leave a bit of a sick feeling to everyone's stomach.

Highlight that last bit especially. That is probably the primary reason why I lean toward this not being an illusion. Yes, it has short term drama, but I hardly see how it otherwise adds to the plot, and it seems like a big middle finger to the entire Order and of course, us, the readers.


Which brings me to what happens if this encounter turns out to be real.

First two things that stick out to me are this. The decoding for the runes seems to be rock solid- it is a repetition of those 15 characters AND they have a pattern that seems like Rich's style- "nosecretmessage". He isn't a fan of cryptograms anymore. It seems fitting for him to tell us to stop decoding. But the other bit is that Xykon and Redcloak are coming through the other door of this corridor. I'm going to assume that the Order hasn't hit any other forks in the halls since going past that big door. Surely Girard would have anti-teleportation wards that would thwart anyone trying to pop past that big one, so I would be interested in a bit of a story as to how Team Evil found its way meeting the Order during their search for the Gate. How did they get past that death-trap door without disarming it fully?

As for what happens after that story, well... that depends on Xykon. If V randomly shows up now; to be quite frank, Vaarsuvius is doing an epic job of ruining the party's chances of survival in every one of hir appearances in the comics of this arc. So I hope V stays missing momentarily- that way Xykon might at least be open to talking.

IF (and that's a BIG if!) Xykon talks to Roy under peaceful circumstances, maybe a brief truce with Team Evil can be formed, but there's too many variables to try and pinpoint here. Roy's in no position to bargain here, because if this really is Xykon, then he has to eliminate either TE or TG right now, and there's no way of doing it while opposing both at once. Which means he can't be pissing off either Redcloak or Xykon, and he has to suck it up and cooperate. Or pretty much lose the whole damn party.

...Which might mean Haley or Elan has to intervene and do all the talking. :smallsigh:


Either way, let's CONTINUE to play Kick the Order, then kick them till they collapse, then keep kicking them some more, laughing cruelly at them while they scream for mercy. :smallannoyed:

[Deepbluediver]

Does anybody have an idea, what the runes say?


with no spell-casters, the order of the stick will have to team up with the liner guild to fight Xykon

Crazy theory of the day: 5 bucks says they are anti-magic runes or something like that, which would be a nice way to (sort of) level the playing field between the OotS and both sets of villians.


Also, I feel like a broken record here, but I want to point out that the tier system does not translate into guaranteed victory/defeat for the any given character in the STORY.
Case in point- Thog is a dungeoncrasher variant Barbarian/Fighter, while Roy apparently put points into the sub-optimal abilities (for a pure fighter, itself a less optimal build) of Intellect and Wisdom. Who came out on top in that battle?

[TheWombatOfDoom]

EDIT:

Neither "men that stare at goats" or "not secret message" is the right length, I don't think (I suppose a rune could be more than one letter). We can see the whole phrase and some in panels 1, 4 and 6, thanks to the silence.

NOSECRETMESSAGE
ABCDEFDGHDCCIJD

We get from the repeated letters proof that's what it says (and a good decoding program :smallbiggrin:) because repeated letters are the hints to any cipher.

C = S
D = E

If we just go by the repeated letters we have:

NOSECRETMESSAGE
? ? ?R? ?R?? RRR??R

The blanks match up with the repeated letters. :smallsmile:

[sam79]

My question to the people who think an illusion at this point would be a copout is, what did you expect to happen? This is a temple of illusions. Do we really think that there were never going to be any actual illusions in this place?

Maybe that is the latest surprise the author will throw us; the temple of no-illusions!

That said, I think that this is more likely to be an illusion-Xykon, created by some sort of Epic 'You Must Face Your Worst Fear' type of spell.

I think that real Xykon here would also be quite cool, as it will probably result in the OotS performing their Standard Tactic (Run Away!), and bumping into the Linear Guild on the way out. Three-team hilarity is bound to ensue.

[Gift Jeraff]

It's an illusion, and the OOTS will realize that when the real Xykon walks in at the end of the next strip.

[Chad30]

I'm not sure if it's the real Xykon or an illusion, but if the runes are just bringing forth what the party fears the most, they would invision Xykon with his phylactery. Unless it winds up being on Redcloak, who is conspicuously not fully seen.

I figured Giant has enough on the table without bringing in the Big Bad, but I could be wrong. If it is the real xykon, and the Linear Guild doesn't wind up fighting alongside the Order, they are done.

I wonder if anyone else thought the runes translated "I prepared a long string of explosive runes today that detonate when you get to the end of the hall"

[TRH]

I'm going with this probably being an illusion. After all, Xykon coming into this scene pretty much overrides everything going on and spoils every bit of the tension of the Order vs. Linear Guild throwdown.

That's definitely the wrong way to think about this. Of course Xykon's arrival overrides everything going on - that's why we call him the main villain of the story! When the lich shows up, we've gotta drop everything and focus on him. Would you rather that not be the case? I'm getting a little sick of the Linear Guild anyway, and I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels that way. It's about time we saw something different.



My question to the people who think an illusion at this point would be a copout is, what did you expect to happen? This is a temple of illusions. Do we really think that there were never going to be any actual illusions in this place? Every Gate has had some epic power surrounding it in one form or another. Why should this place be any different, and why wouldn't it be an illusion? Redcloak himself said that Girard was capable of the most cunning illusions ever devised. And maybe, once the Order figures it out, they can find a way to use it against the Linear Guild. I really don't see something that the text all but spells out for us being a bad move.

Well, copout's probably the wrong word to use here. It it is an illusion, then it's not a copout insofar as the threat of Xykon isn't brought up and then resolved, it's that it was never there to begin with. In my opinion, at least, it's less about how lame it would be to be all "oops, just kidding!" in a strip or two from now (although it would be lame, let's be honest with ourselves) and more about how much Xykon's real appearance will be if this is a fake right here. Do you really want your Big Bad to show up on the scene with an appended "for really realsies!" to water down the gravitas of the whole proceeding? No, that's just bad drama.

On a side note, it seems to me that Xykon doesn't provoke all that much fear relative to his threat level. Most of the time, he just provokes hatred from his enemies, so I'm honestly not sold on the idea of him being everyone's, or even Roy's worst fear.

[Toper]

Ha! I knew it was weirdly out of character for Xykon to remember Roy -- and it seemed near-impossible for them to have a reasonably competitive fight under the circumstances -- but "illusion" never crossed my mind. Nice!

[Metahuman1]

Crazy theory of the day: 5 bucks says they are anti-magic runes or something like that, which would be a nice way to (sort of) level the playing field between the OotS and both sets of villians.


Also, I feel like a broken record here, but I want to point out that the tier system does not translate into guaranteed victory/defeat for the any given character in the STORY.
Case in point- Thog is a dungeoncrasher variant Barbarian/Fighter, while Roy apparently put points into the sub-optimal abilities (for a pure fighter, itself a less optimal build) of Intellect and Wisdom. Who came out on top in that battle?

Particularly since I think Special Materials still funtion in Anti Magic Fields (Like Roy's Sword.), yeah, that could work nicely.

[Harry Leipzig]

Either Xykon will be disappointed by the Order's weakness and in a twisted Big D**n Heroes moment, attacks the Guild and the Order escapes. Otherwise, go now, o fans, and prefer a four-person wake in whatever way seems best to you.:smalleek:

[Chad30]

Oh he can remember Roy. He just can't remember his name.

[Jay R]

If it is the real xykon, and the Linear Guild doesn't wind up fighting alongside the Order, they are done.

First of all, Roy is in melee range of Xykon. Roy has already faced Xykon and won, even before his sword was enhanced against undead.

More importantly, people keep treating this like it's a game, not a story. Using the same logic:

If an 11-year-old Harry faces Voldemort alone, he's done.

If Eowyn and Merry face the Lord of the Nazgul, they are done.

If a brave little tailor faces a giant, he's done.

If a shepherd boy faces Goliath with just a sling, he's done.

If Henry V's small army of mostly peasants faces the entire French nobility, they're done.


It doesn't always work that way.

[Mojique]

Giant, what a big surprise! We never expected Team Evil in the last panel.

[TRH]

First of all, Roy is in melee range of Xykon. Roy has already faced Xykon and won, even before his sword was enhanced against undead.

More importantly, people keep treating this like it's a game, not a story. Using the same logic:

If an 11-year-old Harry faces Voldemort alone, he's done.

If Eowyn and Merry face the Lord of the Nazgul, they are done.

If a brave little tailor faces a giant, he's done.

If a shepherd boy faces Goliath with just a sling, he's done.

If Henry V's small army of mostly peasants faces the entire French nobility, they're done.


It doesn't always work that way.

With logic like that, I can just tell that you were totally blindsided when Roy got killed. Or when Durkon got killed. Seriously, though, too much meta-thinking like that just makes it impossible to enjoy a suspenseful story. What good's a negative plot twist when you just shrug it off and go "oh, they're the good guys, they'll be fine"?

On an unrelated note, I'd hate a conveniently placed anti-magic field even more than an illusion. "Oh noes, it's Xykon! Oh wait, his magic's not working, so he's just a feeble skeleton who dies in four rounds, so there was nothing to worry about and the Big Bad just went down like a punk. Again." An illusion wouldn't be a Deus Ex Machina, but that? That kind of contrivance would pass muster, in my book.

[Tre of the Wood]

Got to be an illusion. My money in on Redcloak walking out with both eyes, showing the reader that it is an illusion, but not the order.

[137beth]

100% sure Xykon is an illusion. Those runes on the wall are doing something. They are giving the order their worst fear. Roy, Haley and Elan would all at this point fear Xykon. We don't see Belkar's reaction.

I love how certain you (and others on this thread) are that something is an illusion when there is almost no in-comic evidence OR dramatic reason for it to be one:smallbiggrin:

[Gift Jeraff]

If it's not an illusion, my guess is that both the Order and Xykon are on the right track--the Gate is behind the wall with the runes or through a passage hidden by the wall, and touching the wall activates some [ante?](pen)ultimate defense, which will distract Team Evil enough for the OOTS to retreat, bump into the Guild, try to form a temporary alliance with Nale when all hope seems lost, and then V/the IFCC/Tarquin do something and stuff happens.

[Reddish Mage]

The illusion idea seems "completely off the wall.":smallsmile:

Another idea that is completely off the wall. The first thing I thought of when I saw the the party with Xykon and Red Cloak was that the Order is down one mage and one cleric. Don't the two round-off the party perfectly?

[Chad30]

First of all, Roy is in melee range of Xykon. Roy has already faced Xykon and won, even before his sword was enhanced against undead.

More importantly, people keep treating this like it's a game, not a story. Using the same logic:

If an 11-year-old Harry faces Voldemort alone, he's done.

If Eowyn and Merry face the Lord of the Nazgul, they are done.

If a brave little tailor faces a giant, he's done.

If a shepherd boy faces Goliath with just a sling, he's done.

If Henry V's small army of mostly peasants faces the entire French nobility, they're done.


It doesn't always work that way.

You're right. I just can't shake the idea that it should work like a game where the more powerful person should win. Still, unless Roy lures xykon to a one hit kill gate, there's not much he could do. He didn't do significant damage during his second fight before Xykon shut him right down.

[TheWombatOfDoom]

You're right. I just can't shake the idea that it should work like a game where the more powerful person should win. Still, unless Roy lures xykon to a one hit kill gate, there's not much he could do. He didn't do significant damage during his second fight before Xykon shut him right down.

Then you've never played Risk enough to find that bigger armies don't always mean that you win when dice are being rolled. :smallbiggrin: I've had a 30 soldier army be demolished by six defenders. :smallannoyed:

[Kaulguard]

Then you've never played Risk enough to find that bigger armies don't always mean that you win when dice are being rolled. :smallbiggrin: I've had a 30 soldier army be demolished by six defenders. :smallannoyed:

Gad! Did you flip the table and ragequit? I would have. Hate that crap. Or, when my flawless plan is foiled because I didn't notice the random one army in the middle of Africa that keeps me from putting the player out and taking their cards.

[Roland Itiative]

Just to put a final nail to the "what does the runes say?" coffin, Rich used the Miskatonic font you can find in this site:

http://www.blambot.com/fonts_symbol.shtml

Indeed, the secret message is that there is no secret message.

Also of note, the Dark Arts font on the same site was used previously (on the magic circle when V got the Soul Splice, for example), so I wouldn't rule out some of the other ones showing up sooner or later (maybe the dwarven alphabet one when Durkon goes back home/the Order goes to Kraagor's Gate).

[JSSheridan]

Thanks Giant!

[Jay R]

With logic like that, I can just tell that you were totally blindsided when Roy got killed. Or when Durkon got killed. Seriously, though, too much meta-thinking like that just makes it impossible to enjoy a suspenseful story. What good's a negative plot twist when you just shrug it off and go "oh, they're the good guys, they'll be fine"?

A. My suggestion is to not make predictions. No, I was not "blind-sided" by reading a story in which I don't make predictions.

B. Any "meta-thinking" you think I did was your own contribution. All I said was that the more powerful character doesn't always win.

[TheWombatOfDoom]

Gad! Did you flip the table and ragequit? I would have. Hate that crap. Or, when my flawless plan is foiled because I didn't notice the random one army in the middle of Africa that keeps me from putting the player out and taking their cards.

Nope. I like to play through to the end, but that began the drawn out downfall of my blue man empire. :smallsigh: And it's happened many times. In the end, there are two things that decide any battle, even if one is much stronger - STRATEGY and LUCK.

[137beth]

Note: Elan is too scared to say "Dun Dun Dunnnn". If it were an illusion, he wouldn't be.

[Chad30]

I never liked Risk. Not enough troops, and too much luck involved. I actually normally avoid dice games because of the luck involved.

[Admiral]

Gad! Did you flip the table and ragequit? I would have. Hate that crap.

You flip the table when the dice don't go your way? Seriously?

[t209]

It's game over for OOTS, man! It's game over!:smalleek: This situation has gone FUBAR.
- Resistance are dead.
- Draketooths are dead (either good or bad since they're paranoid and would not give a second chance on OOTS).
- Durkon is dead and undead.
- Xykon is here.

[factotum]

"Oh noes, it's Xykon! Oh wait, his magic's not working, so he's just a feeble skeleton who dies in four rounds, so there was nothing to worry about and the Big Bad just went down like a punk. Again."

I'm pretty sure that an antimagic field wouldn't suppress Xykon's damage resistance. It *would*, however, suppress the magical anti-undead properties of Roy's sword. I don't think that fight would go well for the Order in their current state!

[Forikroder]

the post im refrencing is in another thread but i think it workds better to post here


I highly doubt that Rich would employ such a fake-out during a comic's last panel. He doesn't jerk the reader's chain like that; it's impossible for me to imagine that the first panel of 886 will amount to "Just kidding!"

of course not if there an illusion there gonna be hanging around for a good long time since noone in the party could use magic to see through it or dispel it


What happens next is sure to be interesting. My guess is that Roy will immediately charge Xykon but that Xykon actually wants to talk. I'm thinking that he's aware of the Linear Guild's presence and just doesn't want to deal with them, especially after being weakened by a certainly beatable but not insignificant Order of the Stick. Seeing the weak position that the Order is in, he might be right if he surmises that they can't say no to a temporary truce while combating a common enemy. Cue panels of Redcloak begrudgingly healing our protagonists while muttering some snarky complaint.

thats the most ridiculous thing ive ever heard, Redcloak alone could solo the order right now without using his highest spell levels and that leaves Xykon to deal with the LG

or he could just have the MiTD eat them, after all no physical fighter has managed to scratch him once and

i dont think the timeline possibly matchs for Xykon to be the real Xykon

Redcloak used alot of spells that day, between getting to the rebel hideout, summoning all those fiends, killing the rebels, buffing the fake phylactery and gating to the astral plane REdcloak was probably running on empty so i think he definently would ahve needed an 8 hour rest (especially to gate them all back home) so it doesnt make sense that they can spend at least 8 hours in the astral plane before Hinjo can send a sending to Roy and co

furthermore there wandering around... and more importantly going the wrong way so how ahve they been there for so long that theyve gotten completely lost and turned around in a building with no magical defensese?

plus those magic runes were specifically pointed out so i think they have to do something, and the hallway and door makes an obvious throwback to when they first met the LG except this time i think its a real mirror of oposition esque magical device

also i think its absolutely neccesary for there to be magical traps like this, if theres nothing at all stopping them except for that door Haley disarmed that pulls Girards name through the mud pretty hard Soon literally willed himself back to life to protect the gate and if Girard only has some traps that can be disarmed by a non-epic rogue then it would be pretty lame


It's game over for OOTS, man! It's game over! This situation has gone FUBAR.
- Resistance are dead.
- Draketooths are dead (either good or bad since they're paranoid and would not give a second chance on OOTS).
- Durkon is dead and undead.
- Xykon is here.

Belkar is drained to the point of uselessness

[tufttugger]

Maybe that's what the runes are doing? Sort of "reading" people, to know what would throw them off-balance? Xykon popping up at the gate would surely do that trick.

I concur. Draketooth must have left behind some powerful permanent illusions that can read someone's worst nightmares and bring them to life (kind of like the 'weird' spell). That was his job, wasn't it?

So far the place has only been protected by illusions and traps that lesser family members could maintain.

[TRH]

I'm pretty sure that an antimagic field wouldn't suppress Xykon's damage resistance. It *would*, however, suppress the magical anti-undead properties of Roy's sword. I don't think that fight would go well for the Order in their current state!

Bleh, those two demons the Linear Guild just summoned could quite possibly TPK the Order at this point. It's getting a little tiresome how much they've become sitting ducks. Also, Vaarsuvius is coming, which has never made things any better for the OOTS before, so I'm guessing that Xykon isn't in the mood to kill them until V shows, at which point he'll be pissed for what happened to the phylactery. This arc is reaching DSTP levels of sustained hopelessness.

[DaggerPen]

Just to put a final nail to the "what does the runes say?" coffin, Rich used the Miskatonic font you can find in this site:

http://www.blambot.com/fonts_symbol.shtml

Indeed, the secret message is that there is no secret message.

Also of note, the Dark Arts font on the same site was used previously (on the magic circle when V got the Soul Splice, for example), so I wouldn't rule out some of the other ones showing up sooner or later (maybe the dwarven alphabet one when Durkon goes back home/the Order goes to Kraagor's Gate).

Ha! Oh, good catch.

(What did the magic circle in V's soul splice say, out of curiosity?)

[John_Richards]

We will know if they are an illusion or not as soon as we see RC's face. OoTS and the LG don't know about his missing eye (except for V, kinda, and she's not there.) thus any illusion based on their knowledge will be missing that detail.

John R.

[Coldwind]

Nice climax. I believe next strip will be golden.

[CoffeeIncluded]

I had a feeling that this might be an illusion from the start, although things are going so badly for the Order that frankly I wouldn't be surprised.

If it IS really Xykon and Redcloak, then about the only way the Order might possibly survive is to convince Xykon they're not worth the trouble of burning spell slots to kill them.

[Forikroder]

We will know if they are an illusion or not as soon as we see RC's face. OoTS and the LG don't know about his missing eye (except for V, kinda, and she's not there.) thus any illusion based on their knowledge will be missing that detail.

John R.

nice catch, and redcloaks face is hidden out of sight

also they wouldnt know he changed holy symbols

i think next strip Xykon shuts the door and has redcloak continue on alone so he can chat with the order

[Tragak]

How do we know that the Order aren't illusions? :smallbiggrin:

"Besides the fact that Roy is still ignoring Elan?" "NOT IMPORTANT!!!"

[Forikroder]

How do we know that the Order aren't illusions? :smallbiggrin:

"Besides the fact that Roy is still ignoring Elan?" "NOT IMPORTANT!!!"

OMG what if the Roy is an illusion and the reason its enforcing silence is so it can avoid conversation that would reveal its true identity :smalleek:

[Felhammer]

What if Xykon is actually an illusion generated by the Pyramid? Maybe it generates your greatest fear/enemy.

[TheWombatOfDoom]

What if Xykon is actually an illusion generated by the Pyramid? Maybe it generates your greatest fear/enemy.

If that's the case, I wonder who each of the linear guild, tarquin, malack, and even Xykon would have appear for them...

[Greylond]

I think it's about time for another;

CCCRRACKKKAKKOOOOOOOOM!!!!

And then on to the next, and final, gate... :)

[LasVegasLawyer]

Prediction:

Xykon toys with them for a little bit, because he can and because it's fun. LG shows up and things get a little more real. V appears and Xykon actually remembers him/her as the bag of goo that got away (can't happen too often, I'd imagine.) His attention diverted, the OoTS starts a tactical retreat, but Belker jumps in and for reasons unknown, puts himself between V and Xykon, gains an additional negative level, and dies. At about that moment, the seal over the gate recognizes the presence of a too many stupid/non-chaotic characters, and opens like a vacuum, sucking everyone inside (alt: some get sucked inside and the rift seals, maybe leaving Haley out as she matched Girard's alignment). End of the book. Next book is the race on the other side to reach the 5th gate and open it from the inside, or, if some where left outside, teams on both sides of the rift are going to the last gate to open it and reunite. The world within the gate acts as an anti-magic field, so Xykon's magic is ineffective, and Malack can only travel at night, making the sides more or less equal. Hijinks ensue.

[Bulldog Psion]

It sure looks like it says "Men That Stare at Goats." Look right above Roy's head in the first panel, you can see "At" followed by a space/apostrophe. Once you see that, look to the left, and you can easily pick out Stare right before At. Look to the right of the apostrophe above Roy's head and you can readily pick out "Goats." "Men" and "That" follow naturally.

At least, there is very clearly Stare At Goat above Roy's head.

[YourNewOverlord]

I don't have any preference one way or another as to this being an illusion or not. There are ways that both could be useful to the story.

Not an Illusion- I think the only way they could survive it NOT being an illusion is something with the runes. Even if Xykon wants to let Roy go and level up more (unlikely), Redcloak probably won't, as shown by his "stupid risks are just that- stupid" speech while killing Thanh. He would try to finish them off and get them out of the way. That's where those runes could come in handy, though. Perhaps they have some kind of magic like the runes here:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html
Which could give the Order enough time to escape, or at least launch a counter attack.

An Illusion- Part of me wouldn't like this, due to all the other reasons mentioned. On the other hand, though, it would have some benefits. It would snap Roy out of his depression, getting him back into the game. It would also give them a suitable way to fight the Linear Guild. He knows the power of an ambush, and now he has a classic "your worst fear" illusion to boost his own power. It could be interesting.

I don't have a guess or preference for one over the other, honestly, but I'm sure it's going to be very well done either way, whichever it is. Great strip.

[Forikroder]

Prediction:

Xykon toys with them for a little bit, because he can and because it's fun. LG shows up and things get a little more real. V appears and Xykon actually remembers him/her as the bag of goo that got away (can't happen too often, I'd imagine.) His attention diverted, the OoTS starts a tactical retreat, but Belker jumps in and for reasons unknown, puts himself between V and Xykon, gains an additional negative level, and dies. At about that moment, the seal over the gate recognizes the presence of a too many stupid/non-chaotic characters, and opens like a vacuum, sucking everyone inside (alt: some get sucked inside and the rift seals, maybe leaving Haley out as she matched Girard's alignment). End of the book. Next book is the race on the other side to reach the 5th gate and open it from the inside, or, if some where left outside, teams on both sides of the rift are going to the last gate to open it and reunite. The world within the gate acts as an anti-magic field, so Xykon's magic is ineffective, and Malack can only travel at night, making the sides more or less equal. Hijinks ensue.

there not near the gate and noone there is lawful good

and why would Girard, tasked with sealing the rift for all eternity lest the snarl escape and undo reality, create a spell on the gate that opens it?

[Felhammer]

If that's the case, I wonder who each of the linear guild, tarquin, malack, and even Xykon would have appear for them...

That could be a great character building comic. :smallbiggrin:

[allenw]

The fact that (only) a tiny sliver of Redcloak is visible in the last panel is pretty good dramatic evidence that he and Xykon are illusions... or at least that Rich wants us to suspect so.
What other reason would there be to show us precisely the only vertical slice of Redcloak's head that *wouldn't* include some part of the eyepatch? If Rich didn't want us speculating, he'd have either shown more of Redcloak, or none of him.

If this is an illusion, then dramatically Elan should be the one to realize it, both because illusions are his thing and because Roy's been belittling him recently, even though rules-wise Haley's Will save may be higher. Also, genre-savviness should tell him that such illusions are obligatory at the climax of a high-level illusionist's dungeon.

If this *isn't* an illusion, then Xykon might not immediately fry the Order because he's probably lost too and wants directions. My theory: he Teleported to the Gate's location, but got shunted into a magical maze of misdirection and has been wandering around for a while.

[Gamgee]

The fact that (only) a tiny sliver of Redcloak is visible in the last panel is pretty good dramatic evidence that he and Xykon are illusions... or at least that Rich wants us to suspect so.
What other reason would there be to show us precisely the only vertical slice of Redcloak's head that *wouldn't* include some part of the eyepatch? If Rich didn't want us speculating, he'd have either shown more of Redcloak, or none of him.

If this is an illusion, then dramatically Elan should be the one to realize it, both because illusions are his thing and because Roy's been belittling him recently, even though rules-wise Haley's Will save may be higher. Also, genre-savviness should tell him that such illusions are obligatory at the climax of a high-level illusionist's dungeon.

If this *isn't* an illusion, then Xykon might not immediately fry the Order because he's probably lost too and wants directions. My theory: he Teleported to the Gate's location, but got shunted into a magical maze of misdirection and has been wandering around for a while.
:elan: Seems like the case, unless this is one of those cheap cop outs where the illusion was never really there and what you always looked for is within your own heart bull crap, but I have a feeling this isn't heading for a happy ending.

[TheWombatOfDoom]

:elan: Seems like the case, unless this is one of those cheap cop outs where the illusion was never really there and what you always looked for is within your own heart bull crap, but I have a feeling this isn't heading for a happy ending.

Except for Elan! :smallwink:

[Chad30]

It is an illusion, and Elan just doesn't see it right off because he's just so upset that big brother Roy is so out of it.

[hamishspence]

Previous strips showing Redcloak:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0833.html

show his eyepatch strap beginning right above his ear.

Does it look like the edge of the strap would be visible in strip 885, if it was the real Redcloak?

[rewinn]

My guess: Team Evil's been at the Gate long enough to start setting up defenses while they prepare the Ritual.

What's Redcloak's best-known defense? A set of runes that punches Nale's "Whoo-hoo I got four casters more than OOTS does!" plan in the nose (and that no-one in the current party has seen before.)


Nope. I like to play through to the end, but that began the drawn out downfall of my blue man empire. :smallsigh: And it's happened many times. In the end, there are two things that decide any battle, even if one is much stronger - STRATEGY and LUCK.

"Now listen to me closely I'll endeavor to explain
What separates a charlatan from a Charlemagne
A rule confessed by generals illustrious and various
Though pompous as a Pompey or daring as a Darius
A simple rule that every good man knows by heart
It's smarter to be lucky than it's lucky to be smart."
---
"War Is A Science" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbSQZfKTNCA) (Pippin)


How do we know that the Order aren't illusions? :smallbiggrin:

How Zen! It's ALL an illusion. After all, technically, the Order is just a bunch of images on a server somewhere.


Prediction:

Xykon toys with them for a little bit etc etc..... Hijinks ensue.

This seems plausible....


The fact that (only) a tiny sliver of Redcloak is visible in the last panel is pretty good dramatic evidence that he and Xykon are illusions... .
...maybe, or it may just be a common method of showing visually that characters are moving onscreen. The BIG SURPRISE of the last panel is Xykon, and it's not improved much by showing all of Redcloak, IMO.

[137beth]

The fact that (only) a tiny sliver of Redcloak is visible in the last panel is pretty good dramatic evidence that he and Xykon are illusions... or at least that Rich wants us to suspect so.
If this is what passes for "good" evidence of an illusion, then I am certain it is really Xykon.

...maybe, or it may just be a common method of showing visually that characters are moving onscreen. The BIG SURPRISE of the last panel is Xykon, and it's not improved much by showing all of Redcloak, IMO.
I concur.

[AutomatedTeller]

Only problem I have with it being an illusion is that why would illusion Xykon say "not this guy again"

[Thrax]

Wow, I heard that a lot people are in denial of any events in the pyramid, dismissing it with "illusion", but I didn't know how deep that delusion went until I read this thread.

[137beth]

Wow, I heard that a lot people are in denial of any events in the pyramid, dismissing it with "illusion", but I didn't know how deep that delusion went until I read this thread.

Eh. I stopped expecting people to be sensible awhile ago. But yea, I think this thread strengthened my expectations that people believe crazy things on the forums:smallsmile:

[Thrillhouse]

I'm not sure this can be assumed to be an illusion just yet. Here's the evidence in favour of it:

-There are runes in the room with a non-lethal effect.
-There has been no news from either Eugene or Hinjo. We know the former promised to keep an eye on Xykon, and we know the latter was rushing back to base after getting Sending from Niu, the last we saw of him.
-Xykon seems to remember Roy, which he normally wouldn't.
-With Durkon gone, no one has True Seeing active.

Evidence against:
-Xykon HAS met Roy several times by now, and thus might remember him to some degree. Also worth noting that last time, Xykon DID eventually remember Roy as "that guy who keeps getting mad at me for forgetting...something"(I'm quoting from memory), so this could be consistent with the real Xykon. It's not as though he knew Roy's name.
-It's been a number of comics since Xykon recovered the phylactery. Time measurement is imprecise here, but it IS concievable that Xykon could have finished up in the Astral Plane and reached the pyramid quite some time ago. The lack of a warning could be for another reason.

Neutral:

-We haven't seen Redloack's eyepatch yet. No detail yet seen of Xykon is inconsistent with either the Order's memory of him nor the reality of him.
-We know that SOME illusion magic does remain after the Familicide casting and lack of magical maintenance. However, we have no way of knowing which illusions they are. The invisibility spell on the pyramid itself is the only active illusion within the pyramid we've seen so far.

[hamishspence]

Only problem I have with it being an illusion is that why would illusion Xykon say "not this guy again"

Good point.

[RNGgod]

Wow, I heard that a lot people are in denial of any events in the pyramid, dismissing it with "illusion", but I didn't know how deep that delusion went until I read this thread.

Because this is a different turn of events. Suddenly we have these runes that are explicitly mentioned as potentially serving an unknown purpose, and Xykon appears out of nowhere.


I'm certainly not saying that this is an illusion. I personally think we should consider it to be real until proven otherwise. But there's enough in this strip for people to start guessing. How many of us laughed at those who thought Malack was a vampire, or that V killed the Draketooth family? It's not completely insane to speculate about some sort of "summon your worst fears" illusion going on.

[One Skunk Todd]

I'll guess that it's really Team Evil but Roy is convinced it's just an illusion. :)

ETA: And Xykon plays along for laughs.

[ReaderAt2046]

When I first saw this comic, it did seem to me that Xykon was drawn a bit...off. Maybe he is an illusion and I was noticing that on some subconscious level?

[Snails]

We have seen Phantasmal Killer. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0800.html) While I do not doubt Girard could unleash an Epic Phantasmal Killer that would be more difficult for the reader to detect, I honestly do not think that the Order's Collective Nightmare would include Redcloak. It is not that the Order does not know of Redcloak's existence, but that they are overmatched by Xykon and a powerful dread of Xykon, Xykon, Xykon makes sense. They did get to see Xykon kill Roy.

Redcloak? Not really. Maybe they should fear Redcloak, too. But we know that only because we know Redcloak has levelled up. The Redcloak the Order knows of is merely dangerous, not a big deal.

[ReaderAt2046]

We have seen Phantasmal Killer. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0800.html) While I do not doubt Girard could unleash an Epic Phantasmal Killer that would be more difficult for the reader to detect, I honestly do not think that the Order's Collective Nightmare would include Redcloak. It is not that the Order does not know of Redcloak's existence, but that they are overmatched by Xykon and a powerful dread of Xykon, Xykon, Xykon makes sense. They did get to see Xykon kill Roy.

Redcloak? Not really. Maybe they should fear Redcloak, too. But we know that only because we know Redcloak has levelled up. The Redcloak the Order knows of is merely dangerous, not a big deal.

They might be thinking of Redcloak as an accessory to Xykon, so any illusion of Xykon will also include Redcloak.

[Killer Angel]

Wow, I heard that a lot people are in denial of any events in the pyramid, dismissing it with "illusion", but I didn't know how deep that delusion went until I read this thread.

It didn't occurred me, and I was deeply worried for the group, but the runes' argument in favor of the "phantasmal killer - like" illusion, isn't totally baseless.

edit: or are you referring to something else?

[Solara]

The runes have got to do something or else the Giant would never have drawn attention to them in the first place. That's just how storytelling works.

We don't know yet what they do, but given that this is an illusion themed dungeon, running into an illusion at some point does seem likely.

[Doug Lampert]

Eh. I stopped expecting people to be sensible awhile ago. But yea, I think this thread strengthened my expectations that people believe crazy things on the forums:smallsmile:

Eh, the illusion thing is actually quite PLAUSIBLE for a forum theory.

There's actually EVIDENCE in favor of it. (AKA you can't see Redcloak's eyepatch or the strap that holds it on.)

I don't believe it, but it wouldn't shock me if it were true.

We're nowhere near the level of people who still thought Tarquin was non-evil after this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0744.html), and that seemed to be much of the board.

[Lecan]

Also, Vaarsuvius is coming, which has never made things any better for the OOTS before,

This has probably been addressed, but I'm tired of reading statement after statement about how terrible V is for the party. From the beginning, V has shown his versatility and power (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0020.html), along with preparedness and strategy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0089.html).

I believe his lack of being able to teleport and his loss at Cliffport were the starting point that led to his break after Azure City fell, but even in the battle for the city he was able to hold a wall that would have fallen much sooner than without him. Again, he used non-conventional methods, outside the box thinking and creative use of mechanics (much like the hero of a comic that was previously hosted on this very site). If he existed in a system that did not limit his power arbitrarily, he could have taken the death knight as well. How many people lived to escape the fall of Azure City that would not have if V had not intervened?

Even after approaching insanity out of guilt, he still proved the most effective member of a group that involved 2 paladins, a cleric and a bard. Against a demon.

He is the only non-epic character to survive going toe to toe with Xykon that did not use a convenient plot point to do so. If he had remembered his previous use of strategy, he could very well have ended the comic right then.

He makes lame characters effective (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0684.html) and seems to have regained the reasoning (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0800.html) and insight (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0884.html) that drama took from him to make a dull situation interesting. Also, V and Blackwing alone hold information that could turn the entire campaign on its head.

In summary, a nearly fully-powered Vaarsuvius is one of the few lights at the end of a very dark corridor and I, for one, am excited to see what he can do.

[Chad30]

We're nowhere near the level of people who still thought Tarquin was non-evil after this, and that seemed to be much of the board.

Well, some people do need giant flaming letters after all.

I don't think V is bad for the party either. Belkar sure, but not V.

[Rig]

If it is fake, then it's not a "your worst fear" gag. By now they all should have much worse fears then Xykon. Really, he's only the most immediate, if that.

[Kaulguard]

there not near the gate and noone there is lawful good

I don't think that that theory is plausible either, but there are a few things wrong with your reply.

1 - You don't have any idea how close/far they are to the gate. You just don't.

2- There was no reference to Lawful Good in the post you quote. There was an 'LG' in the post, an abbreviation for 'Linear Guild'. But, even if there was...

3- Roy is Lawful Good.

[Breccia]

I'm willing to say this is an illusion, as well. The fact that the pyramid was built by an illusionist, and maintained by illusionists, allows that to be a very credible theory that can't be completely discounted, even if you disagree with it.

I'd also say that, if it is a "face your fears" situation (the Phantasmal Killer situation), then what we're seeing is very likely Roy's perspective. None of the OotS have said "Oh look, it's Xykon!" There is the possibility they all see something else. Haley doesn't seem as shocked as the others, more like upset or worried. Does she see someone with a knife to her father's throat?

Also, we don't see Belkar's reaction at all. That little psychopath might respond completely differently to...actually, what would that little psychopath be the most afraid of? I doubt it's Xykon. He never seemed that worried about him, despite the fact that he seems horrifically unsuitable for a fight with Xykon. Would he see a vampirized cat? The re-application of his Mark of Justice? A sandwich with no pickles? SHOES? If V's assessment is right, his only two reactions are "hate" and "lust", and the illusion might work completely differently on him. And, I might add, not in a way we'd want to see.

[JSSheridan]

We know that SOME illusion magic does remain after the Familicide casting and lack of magical maintenance. However, we have no way of knowing which illusions they are. The invisibility spell on the pyramid itself is the only active illusion within the pyramid we've seen so far.

There was also the illusion in the Canyon the OotS found in comic 839 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0839.html) that was either permanent or very long lasting.


I'll guess that it's really Team Evil but Roy is convinced it's just an illusion. :)

ETA: And Xykon plays along for laughs.

Or maybe Xykon thinks the OotS is an illusion and walks on by.

[The Pilgrim]

+1 for this Xykon is an illusion.

[Chad30]

Another reason that this isn't the real Xykon is that no one said something along the lines of "At last it can't get worse."

[Tiktik Ironclaw]

I'm willing to say this is an illusion, as well. The fact that the pyramid was built by an illusionist, and maintained by illusionists, allows that to be a very credible theory that can't be completely discounted, even if you disagree with it.

I'd also say that, if it is a "face your fears" situation (the Phantasmal Killer situation), then what we're seeing is very likely Roy's perspective. None of the OotS have said "Oh look, it's Xykon!" There is the possibility they all see something else. Haley doesn't seem as shocked as the others, more like upset or worried. Does she see someone with a knife to her father's throat?

Also, we don't see Belkar's reaction at all. That little psychopath might respond completely differently to...actually, what would that little psychopath be the most afraid of? I doubt it's Xykon. He never seemed that worried about him, despite the fact that he seems horrifically unsuitable for a fight with Xykon. Would he see a vampirized cat? The re-application of his Mark of Justice? A sandwich with no pickles? SHOES? If V's assessment is right, his only two reactions are "hate" and "lust", and the illusion might work completely differently on him. And, I might add, not in a way we'd want to see.

Most of the illusions are gone, as evidenced by the traps. Also, it's obvious, Belkar would see the nicer version of him (Owl's Wisdom) walking a little old lady across the street!.:smallbiggrin:
Also, it would be too much of a cop-out for this to be an illusion; we haven't seen Xykon and Redcloak for fifty-two strips!
EDIT:Wait, no, petting a kobold!

[Draz74]

I do hope Girard left at least one permanent awesome illusion guarding the close vicinity of the Gate. (Maybe he didn't trust even his family beyond a certain point?) Something truly Mind Screw-y.

But I don't think this is it. Ladies and gentlemen, the chips are down; the endgame is approaching. Xykon is here.

And I think the only chance the Order has at surviving is the fact that this is now a three-way competition, so the Order can avoid being a target just by being a lower priority for the big two.

[Hopeless]

Welcome back!:smallbiggrin:

[Deepbluediver]

If it is fake, then it's not a "your worst fear" gag. By now they all should have much worse fears then Xykon. Really, he's only the most immediate, if that.

Just for the record, I'm firmely in the "not an illusion" camp.

But if it IS an illusion, then maybe it's not directly related to fear. Maybe it's just whatever you are thinking about most heavily. Each member of OotS has their own reactions to recent events, but overall the big-picture is still about Xykon.

[F.Harr]

Holy Crud! I mean, HOLY CRUD! How the hell did Xykon find the joint? And is there going to be one surprise intrance after another? HOLY CRUDDY CRUD!

This is so COOL!

[Ghosty]

Borrowing this idea from someone else's speculation, but assuming it's an illusion and assuming it isn't Xykon & co coming at them, then couldn't it be a glamour on somebody else actually walking towards the party? Like V and Blackwing? This might make sense as a defensive measure. Particularly if you think Girard would think that parties at this point in the pyramid might have been split by earlier traps (like the sliding wall that got Malack), and also be in the mood to shoot first and ask questions later. Why shoot at your enemies when you can have them do it to each other?

So, if it actually is V and Blackwing walking towards them, what do you think V fears most? And sees walking towards hir? I think s/he fears the three Fiends coming to collect on their debt, maybe with their much-smaller helper in tow. Well, we've got Roy, Haley, Elan, and Belkar coming...

(Not sure how Mr. Scruffy would fit into that though.)

[F.Harr]

Most of the illusions are gone, as evidenced by the traps. Also, it's obvious, Belkar would see the nicer version of him (Owl's Wisdom) walking a little old lady across the street!.:smallbiggrin:
Also, it would be too much of a cop-out for this to be an illusion; we haven't seen Xykon and Redcloak for fifty-two strips!
EDIT:Wait, no, petting a kobold!

Cool.



But I don't think this is it. Ladies and gentlemen, the chips are down; the endgame is approaching. Xykon is here.



Nah, they still have at least one inning left.


Even if Xykon wants to let Roy go and level up more (unlikely), Redcloak probably won't, as shown by his "stupid risks are just that- stupid" speech while killing Thanh.

Does anyone know what Xykon was going to say on that zombie dragon back at the fall of Azur City just before he meteor swamed Roy?

[Forikroder]

What's Redcloak's best-known defense? A set of runes that punches Nale's "Whoo-hoo I got four casters more than OOTS does!" plan in the nose (and that no-one in the current party has seen before.)

that was Xykons defence and i doubt they ahve an entire afternoon to set one up

and 2 of his casters are divine witch wont trigger the trap


Only problem I have with it being an illusion is that why would illusion Xykon say "not this guy again"

if the illusion is good enough to reproduce Xykon and Redcloak id assume its good enough to fake conversation


If it is fake, then it's not a "your worst fear" gag. By now they all should have much worse fears then Xykon. Really, he's only the most immediate, if that.

what could they possibly fear more then Xykon?


1 - You don't have any idea how close/far they are to the gate. You just don't.

do you see the gate? no? then most likely Girard didnt create a trap on the gate that covers half the pyramid furthermore he wouldnt ahve it activate on alignment since some of his progeny might turn out lawful good considering the environment there raised int


2- There was no reference to Lawful Good in the post you quote. There was an 'LG' in the post, an abbreviation for 'Linear Guild'. But, even if there was...

he did say lawful stupid


3- Roy is Lawful Good.

fair enough


Also, it's obvious, Belkar would see the nicer version of him (Owl's Wisdom) walking a little old lady across the street!.

obviously hed be walking an elderly kobold across the street


Borrowing this idea from someone else's speculation, but assuming it's an illusion and assuming it isn't Xykon & co coming at them, then couldn't it be a glamour on somebody else actually walking towards the party? Like V and Blackwing? This might make sense as a defensive measure. Particularly if you think Girard would think that parties at this point in the pyramid might have been split by earlier traps (like the sliding wall that got Malack), and also be in the mood to shoot first and ask questions later. Why shoot at your enemies when you can have them do it to each other?

So, if it actually is V and Blackwing walking towards them, what do you think V fears most? And sees walking towards hir? I think s/he fears the three Fiends coming to collect on their debt, maybe with their much-smaller helper in tow. Well, we've got Roy, Haley, Elan, and Belkar coming...

(Not sure how Mr. Scruffy would fit into that though.)

the odds that V and blackwing managed to outpace the OoTS SO MUCH that they decided to turn around and find them, and that the Glamour would turn balckwing into a human sized goblin instead o just making him look like an imp is pretty low

[F.Harr]

Oh he can remember Roy. He just can't remember his name.

Ha!


First of all, Roy is in melee range of Xykon. Roy has already faced Xykon and won, even before his sword was enhanced against undead.

More importantly, people keep treating this like it's a game, not a story. Using the same logic:

If an 11-year-old Harry faces Voldemort alone, he's done.

If Eowyn and Merry face the Lord of the Nazgul, they are done.

If a brave little tailor faces a giant, he's done.

If a shepherd boy faces Goliath with just a sling, he's done.

If Henry V's small army of mostly peasants faces the entire French nobility, they're done.


It doesn't always work that way.

Fine. Be reasonable. See if we care. ;)


Thanks Giant!

Hell YEAH!

[AngryHobbit]

It could be, if it really is an illusion, that Roy's worst fear is Xykon (well, maybe not exactly Xykon, but TE reaching the gate before them), and he is the closest to the door = we see his illusion, not Belkar's nor Elan's.

[Apricot]

I came here expecting to see lots of people guessing it was an illusion, and I wasn't disappointed. I mean, whether or not it's the right answer is another thing entirely, but it's the principle of the thing.

So, are we taking bets on whether Redcloak will have both eyes when he steps into view?


I do hope Girard left at least one permanent awesome illusion guarding the close vicinity of the Gate. (Maybe he didn't trust even his family beyond a certain point?) Something truly Mind Screw-y.


I'll wait patiently for the Escher room containing David Bowie.

[Onyavar]

I do hope Girard left at least one permanent awesome illusion guarding the close vicinity of the Gate. [...]
But I don't think this is it. [...]

Yep. It never occured to me that Xykon is an illusion here, and also, it makes not much sense, overall. The real Xykon walking in here is much more likely.

Now, the confrontation could work in favor of the OotS if...
- The Guild closes in on Xykon from the other side (not going to happen next comic, at least)
- V appearing in next comic. If the fiends want to seize the Gates themselves, it won't help them if Xykon vanquishes the order. They might take control of V's soul, quickly splice it again and beat the crap out of X, just to keep him from winning.
- However, the BEST idea is the one with the "rune antimagic field or somesuch". My favorite her would be: THIS corridor is where gate is hidden! There are two entrances from the two doors where Xykon and the OotS came in. The runes are here to amplify illusion magic and nullify every other magic school.

Check it out: It fits to Girards style of protection via illusions. If the place were still defended by the Draketooths, they would be nearly unbeatable in a "illusion only" magic strongroom. And Girard could have counted in that his descendeants will ultimately fail (no instititution is everlasting). Why not build the protections in a layout where people will just walk by the gate and not even notice it, walking right out again?

If this idea is correct, then hilarity ensues. Xykon and Redcloak would nearly be helpless (of course, they will walk right out again and sit outside. Then, they'd need to plot their way into the room, taking advantage of a certain Guild...

[danc]

Oh look! they found themselves a new cleric and arcane caster! now the order of the stick is back up to full strength and ready to fight the linear guild :smallwink:

(this was in jest but roy seems in such a mood that its almost feasible.... blackguard roy would be hilarious.)

[Breccia]

So, are we taking bets on whether Redcloak will have both eyes when he steps into view?

I bet one. And it doesn't prove anything.

O'chul was the one who put out Redcloak's eye. He survived the incident, and had plenty of time (off-"camera") to relate his experiences. I would think that would be on the list.

So, it's plausible that the OotS knows Redcloak is down an eye. A brain-reading illusion would, therefore, use it. I know that's anti-climactic, sorry.

[RNGgod]

Wild crazy theory time:


Xykon is not an illusion. He has, however, been trudging through a dungeon full of illusions.
He thinks Roy is an illusion.

Pretty crazy, huh? Well, here's the twist: "Not this guy again" means Xykon has been running into dozens of illusory Roys, and he's tired of it.

[Apricot]

I bet one. And it doesn't prove anything.

O'chul was the one who put out Redcloak's eye. He survived the incident, and had plenty of time (off-"camera") to relate his experiences. I would think that would be on the list.

So, it's plausible that the OotS knows Redcloak is down an eye. A brain-reading illusion would, therefore, use it. I know that's anti-climactic, sorry.
They know he lost an easily regenerated organ. Your point?

[Deepbluediver]

So, are we taking bets on whether Redcloak will have both eyes when he steps into view?
I already bet on one far reaching theory today, so why not double down?

I bet 4 cookies and a thin-mint that he's single eyed.


They know he lost an easily regenerated organ. Your point?

Yeah, Old Pete got both his eyes regenerated twice (not that he kept them for long either time).

[Snails]

So, it's plausible that the OotS knows Redcloak is down an eye. A brain-reading illusion would, therefore, use it. I know that's anti-climactic, sorry.

No, it is quite implausible that the Order would expect Redcloak to be still missing an eye.

None of the Order ever saw him without an eye. V was distracted and is not around at the moment, regardless. It would be expected that Redcloak would have regenerated it. For the Order to know the current status of the goblin Supreme Leader's eye, (A) the Resistance would have to know it, (B) the Resistance would have to think it is important enough to forward to Hinjo through their precious Cloister-bypassing channels of communication, (C) Hinjo would have to forward it to the Order, (D) the Order would have to care about these details.

A is probably true. B, C, D are probably not true.

It is quite possible for this to be an illusion. I do not think so, but it is a logical enough hypothesis. Let's not bend over backwards to fit the data to something that could easily be wrong.

[Apricot]

I already bet on one far reaching theory today, so why not double down?

I bet 4 cookies and a thin-mint that he's single eyed.



Yeah, Old Pete got both his eyes regenerated twice (not that he kept them for long either time).

A Thin Mint? You're a daring gambler indeed. I'll see your Thin Mint and raise you a macaroon.

[Forikroder]

why would Girard put an antimagic field in his pyramid when the whole popint of the defense is magic?

[tulebast]

For those arguing that there hasn't been enough time for team evil to appear yet:

It was a two day trip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0817.html)to windy canyon from the castle (by carpet), and at least another day (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0835.html) spent retrieving V from the plane of ranch dressing. Unless there was a time shift, we see the phylactery retrieved immediately after our heroes leave the castle. So team evil has at least two days on the astral plane to cast whatever waste of time spells Xykon wants from Redcloak and for Redcloak to replenish. It is even possible that they teleported in right next to the gate but failed to recognize it. [If it is between Girard's Buttcheeks, it is possible that it is hidden not by an illusion that can be penetrated with True Seeing, but merely by a clever mundane ruse--meaning the only thing that could probably find it now is Haley, Elan (by accident) and the MitD who conveniently doesn't seem to understand what "it" is. And it is also possible that Xykon has already fulfilled the proximity prophecy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html) merely by standing where he is right now, assuming that is him.]

It is possible that our heroes cannot receive a sending inside the pyramid (although I find that doubtful, it is more likely the Azure Guard has not yet had time to make the sending). And Eugene may not be able to appear to Roy anymore, for a variety of reasons (busy having nookie, prevented by whatever "rules" prevented him from appearing to Roy and being more clear back in the early days of the comic, prevented by the powers that be who may still be mad about his hijacking the Azure city summoning spell, etc.) so relying on him for communication is unrealistic.

Personally, I think it is Xykon and for the sake of some humor Roy believes him to be an illusion. During the time it takes for that to get ironed out (Xykon won't want to cast anything until he gets a chance to speak his opening dialog, which Roy will keep interrupting 'cause he's just an illusion after all, with Redcloak wondering if he's still getting xp for defeating the OotS this way and hoping to learn more about the pyramid's defenses from them since he got nothing from Ochul). As soon as we get down to go time between them, the LG and V and possibly some body snatching fiends show up to make things even worse. And those Runes are probably important but I doubt they are anything other than a trap for a spell caster with a penchant for reading things (conveniently missing from our heroes party right now--not Elan, since he doesn't count...).

Things I am expecting:


Next strip does not answer this question definitively (because even with conclusive proof there will still be those to argue for and against)
We won't see Haley's father until beginning of next book, but I strongly suspect the hiding place he is heading for is the Windy Canyon (he just doesn't have a carpet to speed him there)
Belkar is surviving this (when is his birthday anyway, I want to know if he gets that cake (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0329.html).)
Malack gets destroyed soon. Narratively I think he's about run his course and he's an obstacle to Durkon returning back home (setting up our heroes to sidequest/delay next gate trying to stop him), possibly by Redcloak and/or Belkar or even Tarquin who I don't believe for a moment is actually going to let Malack have his son
And assuming he's not meeting up with his old adventuring party right now or preparing to give orders to his just now arriving army, then I think perhaps he is secretly trailing behind the LG preparing to seize the gate while his son(s) provides sufficient distraction.
Elan's big plan to thwart his father was to
have Durkon perform a sending to his mother, the only woman apparently to have taken him on and lived...


Goodness, the amount of unresolved plot to go is overwhelming.

[DoctorWhooves]

Xykon's definitely real.

However I doubt he cares enough to fight them right now.

[Forikroder]

For those arguing that there hasn't been enough time for team evil to appear yet:

It was a two day trip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0817.html)to windy canyon from the castle (by carpet), and at least another day (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0835.html) spent retrieving V from the plane of ranch dressing. Unless there was a time shift, we see the phylactery retrieved immediately after our heroes leave the castle. So team evil has at least two days on the astral plane to cast whatever waste of time spells Xykon wants from Redcloak and for Redcloak to replenish. It is even possible that they teleported in right next to the gate but failed to recognize it. [If it is between Girard's Buttcheeks, it is possible that it is hidden not by an illusion that can be penetrated with True Seeing, but merely by a clever mundane ruse--meaning the only thing that could probably find it now is Haley, Elan (by accident) and the MitD who conveniently doesn't seem to understand what "it" is. And it is also possible that Xykon has already fulfilled the proximity prophecy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html) merely by standing where he is right now, assuming that is him.]

It is possible that our heroes cannot receive a sending inside the pyramid (although I find that doubtful, it is more likely the Azure Guard has not yet had time to make the sending). And Eugene may not be able to appear to Roy anymore, for a variety of reasons (busy having nookie, prevented by whatever "rules" prevented him from appearing to Roy and being more clear back in the early days of the comic, prevented by the powers that be who may still be mad about his hijacking the Azure city summoning spell, etc.) so relying on him for communication is unrealistic.

Personally, I think it is Xykon and for the sake of some humor Roy believes him to be an illusion. During the time it takes for that to get ironed out (Xykon won't want to cast anything until he gets a chance to speak his opening dialog, which Roy will keep interrupting 'cause he's just an illusion after all, with Redcloak wondering if he's still getting xp for defeating the OotS this way and hoping to learn more about the pyramid's defenses from them since he got nothing from Ochul). As soon as we get down to go time between them, the LG and V and possibly some body snatching fiends show up to make things even worse. And those Runes are probably important but I doubt they are anything other than a trap for a spell caster with a penchant for reading things (conveniently missing from our heroes party right now--not Elan, since he doesn't count...).

Things I am expecting:


Next strip does not answer this question definitively (because even with conclusive proof there will still be those to argue for and against)
We won't see Haley's father until beginning of next book, but I strongly suspect the hiding place he is heading for is the Windy Canyon (he just doesn't have a carpet to speed him there)
Belkar is surviving this (when is his birthday anyway, I want to know if he gets that cake (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0329.html).)
Malack gets destroyed soon. Narratively I think he's about run his course and he's an obstacle to Durkon returning back home (setting up our heroes to sidequest/delay next gate trying to stop him), possibly by Redcloak and/or Belkar or even Tarquin who I don't believe for a moment is actually going to let Malack have his son
And assuming he's not meeting up with his old adventuring party right now or preparing to give orders to his just now arriving army, then I think perhaps he is secretly trailing behind the LG preparing to seize the gate while his son(s) provides sufficient distraction.
Elan's big plan to thwart his father was to
have Durkon perform a sending to his mother, the only woman apparently to have taken him on and lived...


Goodness, the amount of unresolved plot to go is overwhelming.

but its only been 20 strips since Niu sent that the alliance got destroyed http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0865.html so i doubt it took 3 days for her to use the scroll

also Elans mother has been completely innefective at curbing tarquins eveil actions in the past (hence the divorce) so bringing her to the windy cavern wouldnt do much

[Hopeless]

For those arguing that there hasn't been enough time for team evil to appear yet:

Elan's big plan to thwart his father was to
have Durkon perform a sending to his mother, the only woman apparently to have taken him on and lived...
[/LIST]

Goodness, the amount of unresolved plot to go is overwhelming.

I liked that option!:smallbiggrin:

What would be the funniest resolution of this scene?

Xykon and Roy assume the other is an illusion and decides to move on with Xykon's ally a bit nonplussed but not interested in picking a fight if Xykon isn't and the Order moves on unaware just how close to a tpk they had come... BUT the Linear Guild runs into Xykon and co... now thats a fight worth seeing!:smallwink:

[Forikroder]

I liked that option!:smallbiggrin:

What would be the funniest resolution of this scene?

Xykon and Roy assume the other is an illusion and decides to move on with Xykon's ally a bit nonplussed but not interested in picking a fight if Xykon isn't and the Order moves on unaware just how close to a tpk they had come... BUT the Linear Guild runs into Xykon and co... now thats a fight worth seeing!:smallwink:

if TE and LG does meet then Malack may find out Nale was talking out his ass and kill him right then and there (and would ahve to kill Z as well)

and if they did meet it would probably be around where V is who might meet Xykon and then get killed for losing his phylactery, with V dead the fiends might be in the position to start there final plan

[TRH]

I've got to admit, the idea of Xykon dismissing Roy as an illusion would be hilarious, but I'm guessing Redcloak would have True Seeing active, so that probably wouldn't happen.

[Viferno]

I think the best way to tell if it is an illusion or not is to see what redcloak looks like, No one except V has seen him with his eye missing, if he has two eyes like they all remember him having then it is an illusion, while if he is missing his eye which none of them knew about then he is real.

[JSSheridan]

No, it is quite implausible that the Order would expect Redcloak to be still missing an eye.

None of the Order ever saw him without an eye. V was distracted and is not around at the moment, regardless. It would be expected that Redcloak would have regenerated it. For the Order to know the current status of the goblin Supreme Leader's eye, (A) the Resistance would have to know it, (B) the Resistance would have to think it is important enough to forward to Hinjo through their precious Cloister-bypassing channels of communication, (C) Hinjo would have to forward it to the Order, (D) the Order would have to care about these details.

A is probably true. B, C, D are probably not true.

It is quite possible for this to be an illusion. I do not think so, but it is a logical enough hypothesis. Let's not bend over backwards to fit the data to something that could easily be wrong.

It kinda raises an issue though.

O'Chul and Redcloak spent a lot of quality time together bonding and all. And by that I mean getting tortured every day. O'Chul had intel on Redcloak and Tsukiko as shown in comic 670 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0670.html). While not explicitly said, I'd bet he estimated Redcloak's level and domains.

[Jay R]

I think the best way to tell if it is an illusion or not is to see what redcloak looks like, No one except V has seen him with his eye missing, if he has two eyes like they all remember him having then it is an illusion, while if he is missing his eye which none of them knew about then he is real.

Good point. Which means that if he is an illusion, once Vaarsuvius arrives, s/he will recognize it.

[Snails]

Elan's big plan to thwart his father was to
have Durkon perform a sending to his mother, the only woman apparently to have taken him on and lived...
[/LIST]


Bid thumb's up! One niggling detail...

Elan's mother did not merely take Tarquin on, but very likely "fought" him to a draw, as the contested assets were split evenly (the twins).

[Forikroder]

Bid thumb's up! One niggling detail...

Elan's mother did not merely take Tarquin on, but very likely "fought" him to a draw, as the contested assets were split evenly (the twins).

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0751.html

technically Tarquin took her on

[Snails]

O'Chul and Redcloak spent a lot of quality time together bonding and all. And by that I mean getting tortured every day. O'Chul had intel on Redcloak and Tsukiko as shown in comic 670 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0670.html). While not explicitly said, I'd bet he estimated Redcloak's level and domains.

Quite possibly. But the non-regeneration of Redcloak's eye occurs later, when channels of communication are poor. O-Chul does not know Redcloak will not regenerate his eye.

My point is, to the Order, Redcloak is merely a dangerous lackey, who would be expected to have two eyes at this point in time. And, frankly, the Order is pretty terrible and tracking little details like this. Roy outright does not listen to these kinds of things, and the rest are fairly tone deaf as well.

I am expecting Team Evil and the Order to banter until the Linear Guild shows up. If Redcloak has an eyepatch, does anyone think no one in the Order will make a snarky question asking why it is not regenerated?

Swami's prediction: Belkar totally rags on Redcloak and his eye, and the more RC squirms and tries to avoid the topic, the more Belkar digs in. Then Xykon piles on, too, because that kind of cruelty is funny to him.

[wingnutx]

Is it possible that the runes negate magic?



Good thinking!

Remember the runes that Xykon had in his own throne room that blasted Varsuvius.

[Vinsfeld]

YAY! Foruns are back \o/

[Forikroder]

Good thinking!

Remember the runes that Xykon had in his own throne room that blasted Varsuvius.

the whole point of his gate defense is to have tons of low-medium level spellcasters blanket the whole thing in spells, most likely every single member of the clan is a sorcerer or wizard who specializes in illusions

why would they have an anti-magic zone anywhere?

[Silverionmox]

Making that corridor anti-magic-except-for-illusions would probably the best circumstances Girard could wish for.

[Gift Jeraff]

the whole point of his gate defense is to have tons of low-medium level spellcasters blanket the whole thing in spells, most likely every single member of the clan is a sorcerer or wizard who specializes in illusions

why would they have an anti-magic zone anywhere?

The caster-zapping runes in Xykon's Tower were able to make exceptions for Xykon and Tsukiko, so the same could go for the Draketooths.

[Forikroder]

Making that corridor anti-magic-except-for-illusions would probably the best circumstances Girard could wish for.

seems like a pretty convuluted piece of magic with no clear purpose

wahts in the Corridor that makes it harder to beat without magic? the OoTS just walked right through with no spellcaster so its not like theres some trap that you need magic to deal with (or make it easier to deal with)

i suppose it would help preventing dispelling and true seeing through the illusions but why not ahve those runes everywhere?


The caster-zapping runes in Xykon's Tower were able to make exceptions for Xykon and Tsukiko, so the same could go for the Draketooths.

but then theyd have to be maintained by the regular draketooths so they could keep up with exceptions and why arent these runes guarding the main entrance then?

[Lamech]

You know what is a hilariously deadly magical trap for the cost? Magic Missile traps. Sure their are counter measures, but for the price of a 1000 gp, its 3.5 damage off of anyone who pings it. No saving throw, hits incorporeal, is force damage etc. Now just imagine if all of those runes were such a trap.

[Gamgee]

Because this is a different turn of events. Suddenly we have these runes that are explicitly mentioned as potentially serving an unknown purpose, and Xykon appears out of nowhere.


I'm certainly not saying that this is an illusion. I personally think we should consider it to be real until proven otherwise. But there's enough in this strip for people to start guessing. How many of us laughed at those who thought Malack was a vampire, or that V killed the Draketooth family? It's not completely insane to speculate about some sort of "summon your worst fears" illusion going on.

Yep, it's a total Chekhov's Gun (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ChekhovsGun).

[Forikroder]

You know what is a hilariously deadly magical trap for the cost? Magic Missile traps. Sure their are counter measures, but for the price of a 1000 gp, its 3.5 damage off of anyone who pings it. No saving throw, hits incorporeal, is force damage etc. Now just imagine if all of those runes were such a trap.

if they were low level wouldnt Haley reconize them though?

[ratfox]

I'm going to go ahead and assume that the runes are traps that act on magical spells, or at least anti-magic. Note how the two main casters of the OOTS are not here, and Roy explicitly forbade Elan to do anything, even singing.

The part where Haley says she has no idea what the runes do, but if they were going to explode, they would have done so already, is in hindsight a very big hint. The runes must be there for a reason, and the one very thing that a normal party of adventurers could have done that the OOTS cannot do right now is throw a spell.

Considering that the two other guys in front are spellcasters, the OOTS would be very lucky if that is indeed the case. Unless the MITD finally gets some action, in which case we readers are very lucky :smallbiggrin:

[Gnoman]

seems like a pretty convuluted piece of magic with no clear purpose

wahts in the Corridor that makes it harder to beat without magic? the OoTS just walked right through with no spellcaster so its not like theres some trap that you need magic to deal with (or make it easier to deal with)

i suppose it would help preventing dispelling and true seeing through the illusions but why not ahve those runes everywhere?



but then theyd have to be maintained by the regular draketooths so they could keep up with exceptions and why arent these runes guarding the main entrance then?

While I don't have an opinion on what the runes are, there are many possible reasons why a selective antimagic field would be an excellent tactical choice here.

1. There's no such thing. In other words, Girard would have been able to research something of the sort, nobody would have ever heard of it, and would therefore either not realize what was going on until they tried to cast, or figure it out and believe that that meant that all the illusions in the area were real (as an ordinary AMF would eliminate those as well.)

2. If you have magic, and the other guy does not, you have a massive advantage. This isn't just caster vs. noncaster, it's "caster vs. non-caster that doesn't even have any decent equipment."

3. It strips away any active spells that the attacker may have already in effect. You suggested eliminating True Seeing, and there's plenty of buffs that could be massively useful to get rid of ahead of time.

You wouldn't put it at the entrance because you always keep an ace up your sleeve. If you have it at the entrance, and an attacking party has survivors, your defense is compromised. Thus, you save it for anyone strong enough or clever enough to get this far.

As for "keeping up with the new Draketooths", there'd be no need for that. Familicide proves that spells can be crafted to discriminate by bloodline. There's no reason that this theoretical spell couldn't easily do the same thing.

I don't think that that's what they do, but it would make sense for both tactical and character purposes.

[Snails]

I'm going to go ahead and assume that the runes are traps that act on magical spells, or at least anti-magic. Note how the two main casters of the OOTS are not here, and Roy explicitly forbade Elan to do anything, even singing.

The part where Haley says she has no idea what the runes do, but if they were going to explode, they would have done so already, is in hindsight a very big hint. The runes must be there for a reason, and the one very thing that a normal party of adventurers could have done that the OOTS cannot do right now is throw a spell.

Considering that the two other guys in front are spellcasters, the OOTS would be very lucky if that is indeed the case. Unless the MITD finally gets some action, in which case we readers are very lucky :smallbiggrin:

A clever idea and a well-stated argument. I like it. Not sure if I believe it is the case, but it is worth meditating on...

[gia]

They are both real, but both groups will deduce the other is an illusion, avoiding confrontation

[Sky_Schemer]

Pretty crazy, huh? Well, here's the twist: "Not this guy again" means Xykon has been running into dozens of illusory Roys, and he's tired of it.

Funniest. Theory. Ever.

[Ingus]

Oh, a Mexican Standoff incoming? The Good, The Bad and The Ugly?

And anyone loves the "new site" as much as I do? Any chance to see it in "filler material"?

[Kish]

he did say lawful stupid

No, the post you quoted and replied to with an inaccurate and non-sequiturish "no one there is Lawful Good" did not, in fact, say "lawful stupid." Anywhere. It did say "stupid," and it was not at all ambiguous in the post what it meant by that. (Hint: It wasn't Lawful Good.)

[Hogwarts9876]

Idea: OotS and Team Evil start talking. It quickly devolves into fighting, and Xykon is about to Meteor Swarm them all or something...
...when a second Team Evil show up! :smallbiggrin:

[Forikroder]

1. There's no such thing. In other words, Girard would have been able to research something of the sort, nobody would have ever heard of it, and would therefore either not realize what was going on until they tried to cast, or figure it out and believe that that meant that all the illusions in the area were real (as an ordinary AMF would eliminate those as well.)

but theres no traps in that corridor so its not like there gonna walk into traps because they cant dispel the illusions


2. If you have magic, and the other guy does not, you have a massive advantage. This isn't just caster vs. noncaster, it's "caster vs. non-caster that doesn't even have any decent equipment."

3. It strips away any active spells that the attacker may have already in effect. You suggested eliminating True Seeing, and there's plenty of buffs that could be massively useful to get rid of ahead of time.

the draketooths dont directly engage the enemy, they jsut let the traps deal with them so that corridor would be a terrible place to engage even if the toher side has no casters, would be better to have plenty of traps they can trip while engaging

[Kish]

the draketooths dont directly engage the enemy,
...when they're dead.

The assumptions you're making about their fighting style when they were alive are, like all unsupported assumptions, unsupported.

[Gnoman]

but theres no traps in that corridor so its not like there gonna walk into traps because they cant dispel the illusions

They will, however, take the time to engage any illusionary creatures that might be there, believing them to be an actual threat.



the draketooths dont directly engage the enemy, they jsut let the traps deal with them so that corridor would be a terrible place to engage even if the toher side has no casters, would be better to have plenty of traps they can trip while engaging

There's not a shred of evidence that the Draketooth's avoid any and all combat. The ONLY information that we have is that they are a clan of illusionists that have a hidden base, which is filled with traps. That's like assuming that a bullfighter doesn't have a sword because he tricks the bull with a cape.

[Kark]

I disagree that Xykon would necessarily associate Soul-Spliced V with the V in the Order. First off, V looked very different (commented on by several characters, so in-comic(?). Secondly, Xykon and RC thought that V was working with the Elves. Thirdly, Xykon's memory sucks. While the fight that lost his phylactery is sure to be remembered, my guess is his opponent was just tagged in his mind as "evil-looking elf wizard".


I'm just saying, V may not be recognizable to X right away.

[Obscure Blade]

:elan: "It's got to be just an illusion! Disbelieve it!"
:haley:<concentrate>
:roy: <concentrate>
:belkar:<concentrate>

:xykon: "Sorry fleshbags, I don't wish away."



I wonder if anyone else thought the runes translated "I prepared a long string of explosive runes today that detonate when you get to the end of the hall"No, but I like the idea. :smallbiggrin:

[Snails]

the draketooths dont directly engage the enemy, they jsut let the traps deal with them so that corridor would be a terrible place to engage even if the toher side has no casters, would be better to have plenty of traps they can trip while engaging

Traps in 3.x D&D do not work that way, because traps are rarely lethal against a prepared enemy.

The main point of traps is to slow down the enemy, and weaken them for a big battle at a time and place of your choosing. When traps are used extremely cleverly, like the Draketooths do, they can split the enemy and slow the separated parts down, so that you can sneak in and hammer part of the enemy party.

The Order's ambush of the LG is a pretty good example of what could be done. The difference would be that, having forced the bulk of the LG to retreat, the Draketooths would have popped open that sliding door and hunted down the LG cleric. Or, being strong in the sorcery department, they could have easily split Nale and Tarquin from the spellcasters, and killed them like kittens.

[Forikroder]

There's not a shred of evidence that the Draketooth's avoid any and all combat. The ONLY information that we have is that they are a clan of illusionists that have a hidden base, which is filled with traps. That's like assuming that a bullfighter doesn't have a sword because he tricks the bull with a cape.

exactly there a clan of illusionists, illusionists are not good at head on engagements so why take the risk? it would make more sense to use the illusions for hit and run tactics using there in depth knowledge of the pyramid as a weapon then a head on engagement without any tanks

[TRH]

I disagree that Xykon would necessarily associate Soul-Spliced V with the V in the Order. First off, V looked very different (commented on by several characters, so in-comic(?). Secondly, Xykon and RC thought that V was working with the Elves. Thirdly, Xykon's memory sucks. While the fight that lost his phylactery is sure to be remembered, my guess is his opponent was just tagged in his mind as "evil-looking elf wizard".


I'm just saying, V may not be recognizable to X right away.

That's ignoring the fact that Xykon saw V for a perfectly decent time after dispelling the Soul Splice. More to the point, it was V's normal face that Xykon tried firing a Meteor Swarm directly into.That's the face of the kill he was robbed of, in his mind. That's the face he'll remember, for sure.

[Adaon Nightwind]

That last panel was certainly a powerfull storytelling moment.

Personally, i would like it to be an illusion (for fun, for a longer story line, for an Elan-is-usefull-moment), but i'll go with whatever happens next.

Thanks, Giant.

[Kark]

That's ignoring the fact that Xykon saw V for a perfectly decent time after dispelling the Soul Splice. More to the point, it was V's normal face that Xykon tried firing a Meteor Swarm directly into.That's the face of the kill he was robbed of, in his mind. That's the face he'll remember, for sure.

Right on. I had forgotten that.

[The Vagabond]

Alright, I know I'm late, but I just HAVE to say this:
I saw this coming. I saw it coming! I knew Xykon would be there!
Now lets see who The Linear Guild will join, or if they'll not join anyone. That's what I want to know...

I'll just go out on a limb here, and give this random guess:
The Linear Guild will work with The Order of the Stick to get rid of Xykon, Xykon will almost slaughter the Linear Guild, The Order of the stick will fight Team Evil...
Then they fall into the gate, going wherever it leads.

[sparkyinbozo]

Is anyone else thinking that the runes might be an anti-magic field? That'd explain (in meta-) why Roy stopped Elan from singing and would rapidly even the fight between OotS, Team Evil, and Nale & Co.

[Kish]

I do not believe that, if Elan started singing in an anti-magic field, the Order would immediately go, "Huh, why isn't his song working? Magic must be blocked!"

[TRH]

Not least since there don't seem to have been any traps to find.

[Chad30]

I don't think it's an anti magic field.

[NZNinja]

Ha! Oh, good catch.

(What did the magic circle in V's soul splice say, out of curiosity?)

The message was 'BET YOU THOUGHT YOU HAD FOUND A SECRET MESSAGE IN THIS DIDN'T YOU'.

Yes, I installed the Dark Arts font and stared at 635 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0635.html) for a while.

[137beth]

exactly there a clan of illusionists, illusionists are not good at head on engagements so why take the risk? it would make more sense to use the illusions for hit and run tactics using there in depth knowledge of the pyramid as a weapon then a head on engagement without any tanks

I'm curious:
Why can't illusionists be good at combat?

[DaggerPen]

Wow, I heard that a lot people are in denial of any events in the pyramid, dismissing it with "illusion", but I didn't know how deep that delusion went until I read this thread.


Eh. I stopped expecting people to be sensible awhile ago. But yea, I think this thread strengthened my expectations that people believe crazy things on the forums:smallsmile:

Guys, seriously? While it's not definite that it's an illusion, it's not at all an implausible idea. They are in a room with Chekhov's Runes, going for a gate guarded by an epic illusionist. Redcloak, the presence or absence of whose eyepatch and phylactery could give away the game, is cut off by the panel in such a way as to hide those details. And somehow, no one got a Sending off to the order before Team Evil managed to hide the phylactery somewhere. At the same time, though, Xykon and co. are long overdue for an appearance, and this arc has been going on for a while. Basically, it could go either way.

Also, I'm pretty sure I'm not allowed to post edited art of the comic, but I did actually drag a Redcloak appearance at the same angle from another comic, resize it, and lay it over Redcloak in the last panel, and his eyepatch should be visible, just a little bit. It's possible that Rich just didn't draw it, though.

[Yendor]

There's also a message on the doors in 867. It reads:
Why do you keep looking for secret messages? Don't you have better things to do with your time? I mean this is getting rather silly.

[Forikroder]

I'm curious:
Why can't illusionists be good at combat?

they ahve no way to deal or absorb damage you cant kill someone with jsut an illusion you need something for the illusion to support

[shmeck]

it's gotta be a Weird trap set by Draketooth.. i think Haley only missed it because Roy wouldn't let Elan Inspire Competence.

Weird
Illusion (Phantasm) [Fear, Mind-Affecting]
Level: Sor/Wiz 9
Targets: Any number of creatures, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart
This spell functions like phantasmal killer, except it can affect more than one creature. Only the affected creatures see the phantasmal creatures attacking them, though you see the attackers as shadowy shapes.

If a subject’s Fortitude save succeeds, it still takes 3d6 points of damage and is stunned for 1 round. The subject also takes 1d4 points of temporary Strength damage.

Phantasmal Killer
Illusion (Phantasm) [Fear, Mind-Affecting]
Level: Sor/Wiz 4
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Target: One living creature
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Will disbelief (if interacted with), then Fortitude partial; see text
Spell Resistance: Yes
You create a phantasmal image of the most fearsome creature imaginable to the subject simply by forming the fears of the subject’s subconscious mind into something that its conscious mind can visualize: this most horrible beast. Only the spell’s subject can see the phantasmal killer. You see only a vague shape. The target first gets a Will save to recognize the image as unreal. If that save fails, the phantasm touches the subject, and the subject must succeed on a Fortitude save or die from fear. Even if the Fortitude save is successful, the subject takes 3d6 points of damage.

If the subject of a phantasmal killer attack succeeds in disbelieving and is wearing a helm of telepathy, the beast can be turned upon you. You must then disbelieve it or become subject to its deadly fear attack.

[Forikroder]

it's gotta be a Weird trap set by Draketooth.. i think Haley only missed it because Roy wouldn't let Elan Inspire Competence.

its pretty unlikely any of the draketooth's had acess to 9th level spells so all that leaves is one 3d6 damage spell

the best way they could be effective would be to avoid conflict as much as possible and just run them around in circles until they died of starvation and using there numbers to constantly refreshing and adding in new illusions not risking there lives hoping the enemy fails a fort save

and even if they were planning on actual engaging they wouldnt use an empty corridor as there battle field theyd create an arena with traps and LoS blockers to make best use of there illusions

[Kaulguard]

its pretty unlikely any of the draketooth's had acess to 9th level spells

Girard Draketooth, the guy who built this pyramid and presumably inscribed these runes, was from all reports an epic level illusionist.

[FlawedParadigm]

Girard Draketooth, the guy who built this pyramid and presumably inscribed these runes, was from all reports an epic level illusionist.

Let's not let a little thing like facts get in the way of interpretation.

[shmeck]

yeah Draketooth set this trap himself

[DaggerPen]

The message was 'BET YOU THOUGHT YOU HAD FOUND A SECRET MESSAGE IN THIS DIDN'T YOU'.

Yes, I installed the Dark Arts font and stared at 635 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0635.html) for a while.


There's also a message on the doors in 867. It reads:
Why do you keep looking for secret messages? Don't you have better things to do with your time? I mean this is getting rather silly.

HA! Oh man, that's amazing.

[Rob Roy]

Huh, Z*finally showed up, with Wrong-Eye right behind him. MitD is presumably with them too. *Mistake? What mistake? All is intentional.

[Forikroder]

Girard Draketooth, the guy who built this pyramid and presumably inscribed these runes, was from all reports an epic level illusionist.

were not talking about the traps, were talking about the corridor being for the draketooths to directly engage the opponent (and the runes being an antimagic field that doesnt affect them)

[theinsulabot]

FWIW on the people who seem to think RC isnt on the order's radar, I disagree. not even because of the fact that haley probably knows all about him from her time in the rsistance, but actually more from a comic which escapes me when they were talking about who could perform a true resurrection, and someone tossed off drunkenly a speculation that they bet redcloak could cast it.

which to me, even if it was played for laughs, makes me very inclined to believe its common knowledge among the order that redcloak is a serious threat and higher level then the order.

[jere7my]

they ahve no way to deal or absorb damage you cant kill someone with jsut an illusion you need something for the illusion to support

That is entirely false. Shadow Conjuration, Phantasmal Killer...the list of illusions that can do real damage to or kill a target is a long one. Those two are 4th-level spells.

[Forikroder]

That is entirely false. Shadow Conjuration, Phantasmal Killer...the list of illusions that can do real damage to or kill a target is a long one. Those two are 4th-level spells.

so your saying illusions specialize in straight up engagements

[theinsulabot]

so your saying illusions specialize in straight up engagements

no, no he wasnt. nice strawman though?

[SaintRidley]

FWIW on the people who seem to think RC isnt on the order's radar, I disagree. not even because of the fact that haley probably knows all about him from her time in the rsistance, but actually more from a comic which escapes me when they were talking about who could perform a true resurrection, and someone tossed off drunkenly a speculation that they bet redcloak could cast it.

which to me, even if it was played for laughs, makes me very inclined to believe its common knowledge among the order that redcloak is a serious threat and higher level then the order.

That was Belkar, to Haley.

[JSSheridan]

Huh, Z*finally showed up, with Wrong-Eye right behind him. MitD is presumably with them too. *Mistake? What mistake? All is intentional.

That's Xykon with an X. Z's are for wimps.

[Forikroder]

That's Xykon with an X. Z's are for wimps.

i dunno he fought V to a standstill last time


no, no he wasnt. nice strawman though?

im jsut trying to point out how ridiculous it is to think that there would be an antimagic field in a magic based defense

[jere7my]

so your saying illusions specialize in straight up engagements

No, I'm saying that "they ahve no way to deal or absorb damage you cant kill someone with jsut an illusion you need something for the illusion to support" is factually incorrect. Your line is "oh ok didnt knwo that thkx for correction".

[theinsulabot]

im jsut trying to point out how ridiculous it is to think that there would be an antimagic field in a magic based defense


And that's fine. Actually it is quite a reasonable argument, and one I personally agree with, as it happens. However that does not justify willfully misinterpreting someone's statement to avoid acknowledging the fact that he proved you wrong, which is what you just did.

[shmeck]

anyone know which comic this harkens back to? i remember one from a way back that started with the same format, Roy cutting off Elan before he could offer good, common-sense ideas..

[Forikroder]

And that's fine. Actually it is quite a reasonable argument, and one I personally agree with, as it happens. However that does not justify willfully misinterpreting someone's statement to avoid acknowledging the fact that he proved you wrong, which is what you just did.

im terribly sorry that noone in these forums seems to understand what an exageration is


anyone know which comic this harkens back to? i remember one from a way back that started with the same format, Roy cutting off Elan before he could offer good, common-sense ideas..

doesnt ring a bell

nor did it happen in this one

the one i think your thinking of is when there going to the oracle and Roy keeps ignoring elan before he reminds themt ehy dont ahve horses anymore

[shmeck]

that's probably it.. #321. i just thought i remembered another one starting the same way.

p.s. re: your idea that the Draketooths are waiting for an illusionist ambush, i think we can be certain all the Draketooths were killed off by Familicide

[glissle]

While I don't have an opinion on what the runes are, there are many possible reasons why a selective antimagic field would be an excellent tactical choice here.
There's also the narrative aspect of giving Elan the chance to shine, if the exception is to allow illusions.

[Forikroder]

that's probably it.. #321. i just thought i remembered another one starting the same way.

p.s. re: your idea that the Draketooths are waiting for an illusionist ambush, i think we can be certain all the Draketooths were killed off by Familicide

the argument was that this corridor was made so that the runes prevented non-draketooth spellcasters from casting spells to the draketooth clan could then engage them in combat

i was pointing out how dumb that idea is

[rodneyAnonymous]

the argument was that this corridor was made so that the runes prevented non-draketooth spellcasters from casting spells to the draketooth clan could then engage them in combat

i was pointing out how dumb that idea is

"Engage them in combat" doesn't necessarily mean melee combat. Runes that prevent non-Draketooth spellcasters from casting spells so the Draketooths can blast them isn't a dumb idea. Also being an illusionist doesn't mean you can't do other stuff. Evoke fireballs, for example. Heck, Girard was part ranger.

[shmeck]

i agree with Forikroder, inventing the idea of a game-breaking one-way anti-magic field based on a few squiggly lines on the wall is.. um.. imaginative, yes, but far less likely than a simple Weird trap.

Rich takes liberties with the rules of D&D, but he never takes it to that kind of extreme.

[David Argall]

there not near the gate and noone there is lawful good

and why would Girard, tasked with sealing the rift for all eternity lest the snarl escape and undo reality, create a spell on the gate that opens it?

LasVegasLawyer is likely wrong in the details, but we are due for the end of the book, and a switch to a new scene, quite likely the Snarl's world. Something is going to happen, and soon, to send everybody off to the next book.
So no, this is not an illusion. We expect to see the lich and here he is. And he has to be here for the book to finish. Like any good writer, the Giant is willing to steal a useful idea, so we may get some illusion reference next time, but the plot has been building towards his getting here soon, and here he is.