Faerun Orc-horde theoretical discussion (3.5)

[Seharvepernfan]

This is going to be a long post, and the subject matter is very complicated.

A brief sidenote: This is a discussion based on a campaign idea I had for a game I DMed for my cousin, which was a one-DM-one-player evil game, where he played a fiendblooded halforc barbarian/sorcerer/spellsword. It never got off the ground, but I felt that the campaign was a good idea, and I'm curious how it would have played out.

First, the antagonist: Zarigaar, a CE male half-deeporc/half-fiend (glabrezu, specifically) Barbarian/Fighter/Sorcerer/Spellsword - the exact classes and levels aren't too important, just a CR 22-23ish heavy gish who combines size/strength/big two-handed greatsword with powerful blasty spells and a few general useful spells (antimagic sphere, greater dispel, etc), and can cast his blasty spells through his sword when attacking. Stats would be something like Str 30, Dex 12, Con 22, Int 18, Wis 8, Cha 30, before any spells/abilities. He had tons of ranks in bluff, craft poison/weapons/armor (made his own adamantine set), intimidate (very high), and climb/jump/arcana/spellcraft. He uses all adamantine fullplate+spikes/greatsword/T-axes, all poisoned. I considered giving him powerful build and an extra set of smaller arms.

For the spirit of the discussion, let's assume he's possibly the biggest badass around one-on-one when it comes to martial prowess/combat-dangerousness. I know that a 20th level warblade or an ubercharger or whatever could take him fairly easily, and so could about a dozen other fairly-optimized things, but let's keep it in context here. Drizzt couldn't take him, Ryld couldn't take him, Fflar couldn't take him (but he'd have a better chance than the last two), the Knights of Myth Drannor couldn't take him - but Shurupak could; if that helps you imagine the power level.

So, however you imagine the stats of the realms' tier-ones and twos (the non-mage ones), this guy is right up there.

Also, in this timeline, Obould never got his super-buff and the whole war against Mithral Hall/Silverymoon never happened.

The short of it is, Zarigaar builds a vast orc horde in the Spine of the World mountains, which has support from below (both underdark and lower planes), which floods down into the lands to the south to take as much land and wealth as possible. His motivations are similar to Sarevoks; in that he wants to cause as much bloodshed as possible, then take a place among the powerful in the lower planes (or a lower-plane mandated realm here in faerun).

The main question of the thread is; how successful would they be? How would the "war" go? Who would fight who?

Relevant details: Zarigaar forges an orc horde way up in the Spine of the World, combining virtually all the orcs/goblins/ogres/hill giants into one massive horde, then leads them south. Before this, he organized a massive, regimented army of Deep Orcs that is prepared to mobilize on his command (if you have Races of Faerun, it talks about how they want to do just this).

The orc horde will be the beginning, then when certain targets are weakened, the deep orcs will move and further continue the horde/war. Eventually, Zarigaar and certain orc casters and hired drow/whoever casters will open a gate(s) to the lower planes, letting in "massive" numbers of fiends to even further add strength to the horde.

In addition to these powers, he will also hire drow/duergar/illithid/various-other-underdark-races as special ops/intel/strike teams/etc, he will also bribe or intimidate surface-dwelling neutral and evil folks/monsters/powers into being a part of his horde, as it goes (he might spare luskan if the tower mages work for him, for instance).

Zarigaar surrounds himself with personal champions/bodyguards/advisors/aides/etc, many of whom are high-CR themselves (for instance, a 16th level half-ogre/orc barbarian/frenzied bezerker wereboar might be his personal champion or bodyguard). A few examples include a fire giant fighter, a glabrezu, an adult red dragon, and half a dozen beholders. At various times, they could be engaged in battles or missions that he has sent them on, but the point is that he has a very powerful retinue surrounding him at any given time.

All of these various powers all see their own benefit to this, mainly in taking land/resources/slaves, but also in attacking hated foes.

I know that at any given time in the realms, there are literally tons of adventurers (many high-level) around who can help deal with this threat. I know that there are tons of uber-powerful mages. I know that every major city has more guardians/spell/whatever protecting it than I could possibly list. That said, many of their powerful people are busy with other things (maybe even more-important or threatening things) at any given time.

How do you see this going?

I'll be popping in frequently to provide answers and specifics, but I'm not going to "DM" the events, I'm more like the player controlling Zarigaar - I'll tell you his plans, what he would do, and so on, but I'm not controlling the "game".

[ericp65]

This Orc (what's a Deep Orc, btw?) would have to put forth a very compelling argument in order to get the various other nasties to cooperate with him, let alone with each other. Can you give details on this, especially regarding the drow and illithids?

I'd be afraid to DM such a campaign, but I'd love to be a player on the side of good in it :)

[hamishspence]

Deep orcs are a variant of orc, native to the Underdark, in Races of Faerun. They're bigger and meaner than normal orcs.

(They're also called orogs).

[Seharvepernfan]

Deep Orcs are the underdark equivalent of orcs, as drow are to elves. They are also called Orogs, not to be confused with half-ogre orcs. They are more disciplined and less superstitious than other orcs. Stats are +6 Str, -2 Dex, -2 Wis, +2 Cha. They have bonuses to crafting arms and armor, they have natural armor +2, fire/cold resistance 5, and better darkvision.

With regards to goblins/orcs/ogres/hill giants, it will be a mix of lying (religious reasons; "gruumsh wills it!"), persuasion (greed; "think of the wealth!"), intimidation (fear; he's so strong now, how could we not join him?), and sheer power (which most of these types are attracted to). You see this a lot in D&D fiction, where some powerful person or creature gets all the various CE wild folk of the mountains to horde up and fight for them.

With drow, it's a matter of "I'm powerful and wealthy, and I'm offering you money to do something you love to people you hate, and you'll probably find wealth on your dead enemies in addition to what I'm offering" - not too much persuasion needed there. With duergar, it's the same thing, but he's not going to get as many duergar as he will drow. With Illithids, it's the promise of slaves more than anything, though the above is still true. With regards to all three, we're talking small bands of independent mercenaries or even just individuals, not the armies of cities, and they're likely not mixing together (the drow aren't working with duergar, for example).

Zarigaar, in addition to being high level and extremely physically dangerous, has high ranks in bluff/diplomacy (I use rich's fix)/intimidate, and has a Cha of 30. He also mixes orc blood with an obvious fiendish heritage, and is a caster to boot (had 6th level spells in his roster, in my original build). It's not hard to imagine his "come fight with me!" persuasiveness.

[ericp65]

Deep orcs are a variant of orc, native to the Underdark, in Races of Faerun. They're bigger and meaner than normal orcs.

(They're also called orogs).

Oh, yeah, orogs! OK, thanks :)

[ericp65]

Deep Orcs are the underdark equivalent of orcs, as drow are to elves. They are also called Orogs, not to be confused with half-ogre orcs. They are more disciplined and less superstitious than other orcs. Stats are +6 Str, -2 Dex, -2 Wis, +2 Cha. They have bonuses to crafting arms and armor, they have natural armor +2, fire/cold resistance 5, and better darkvision.

With regards to goblins/orcs/ogres/hill giants, it will be a mix of lying (religious reasons; "gruumsh wills it!"), persuasion (greed; "think of the wealth!"), intimidation (fear; he's so strong now, how could we not join him?), and sheer power (which most of these types are attracted to). You see this a lot in D&D fiction, where some powerful person or creature gets all the various CE wild folk of the mountains to horde up and fight for them.

With drow, it's a matter of "I'm powerful and wealthy, and I'm offering you money to do something you love to people you hate, and you'll probably find wealth on your dead enemies in addition to what I'm offering" - not too much persuasion needed there. With duergar, it's the same thing, but he's not going to get as many duergar as he will drow. With Illithids, it's the promise of slaves more than anything, though the above is still true. With regards to all three, we're talking small bands of independent mercenaries or even just individuals, not the armies of cities, and they're likely not mixing together (the drow aren't working with duergar, for example).

Zarigaar, in addition to being high level and extremely physically dangerous, has high ranks in bluff/diplomacy (I use rich's fix)/intimidate, and has a Cha of 30. He also mixes orc blood with an obvious fiendish heritage, and is a caster to boot (had 6th level spells in his roster, in my original build). It's not hard to imagine his "come fight with me!" persuasiveness.

I can see that working. Zarigaar keeping separate forces under his command that don't have to interact directly, but work toward a common goal. I'm reminded of the story of the Crystal Shard here, but on a much grander scale, and I like the fact that it's a character as the mastermind, rather than an evil artifact.

Some of the evil power groups of the Realms might also be attracted to this warlord's cause, especially if there's a (sincere or not) promise of favor in the new order.

[00dlez]

They need a trump card to do anything serious.

Looking at the map, I see two very serious roadblocks for an army advancing south from the Spine of the World - Waterdeep and Silverymoon. These are both big players in Faerun and couldn't be bypassed or ignored; they also are not very easily taken.

For comparisson, think of the situation in terms of world war II. When the allies (orcs) invaded Normandy, the (ultimate) goal was to retake Paris. Once it was liberated, the Allies were confident that their beachhead was secure and vicotry in Europe would be a matter of time. Silverymoon or Waterdeep would be the orc's Paris.

That said, and as you mentioned, simple numbers don't count for much in a world of adventurers and powerful magic. The orcs would need to have a trump card in place that would reasonably assure them the capture of one of these cities - lending them the wealth and power they need to rally/buy additional troops to continue their conquest. Without having a major, but attainable, goal like Waterdeep or Silverymoon, the invasion will go no where.

Bound by these two cities, the most the orcs could hope for is Neverwinter or Mithril Hall - token conquests at best in the world changing war it seems like you are working on.

Neither of these cities will roll over either. Standing alone they could probably resist a powerful army like yours for a decent amount of time, but given the circumstance, they would be able to call up numerous and powerful allies in their defense as well... the orcs need something special to tip the scales.

[Rhynn]

This actually sounds a lot like a campaign I had planned that would have ended with Khaanyr Vhok forging an alliance of giants, orcs, and fiends (and heck, maybe drow and Daemonfey, if he didn't give a crap about it falling apart in major betrayals later) to engulf the North in war.

Basically, the active opposition would be:
1. Silverymoon and the Silver Marches. Not an inconsiderable threat. The dwarven citadels (Adbar, Felbarr, Mithrall Hall) are probably going to be able to hold off sieges for years, and most likely are joined by underground passages (Ammarindar/Delzoun deep roads?). They'd have to be almost permanently invested with huge armies on the outside (probably harried constantly by attacks from secret tunnels to the outside that either can't be found or can be collapsed), and would have to be taken by deep orc/drow attacks (which don't have a history of great success). Silverymoon is enormously magically powerful even if it's small, and is protected by Alustriel plus two (great wyrm or something?) dragons, one gold and one silver.

2. Waterdeep and the Lords' Alliance. Waterdeep is gigantic (it's something like a million people during the busy part of the year, right?), and can be supplied by sea unless the orcs somehow get naval superiority, is protected by archmages, dragons, etc., and can ship in not just supplies, but armies of mercenaries from the Heartlands and the South. It can also ship these troops to anywhere on the Sword Coast.

These aren't insurmountable obstacles, though. Greater realms have fallen to orc hordes from the Spine of the World - kingdoms like Phalorm, Delzoun, etc. were, if not destroyed by orc hordes, then devastated so they never recovered and eventually fell apart. Even Netheril was threatened gravely by orc hordes.

There's other, smaller, concerns, too. It's probably best to leave the High Forest alone entirely. It's a forest, it's a wilderness, and it's got Turlang the Treant, Klauth the Red Great Wyrm, and many other dragons (especially in the Starmounts), and a lot of dangerous ancient ruins. Sure, some orcs will make forays into it, but there's no value to it, at least early on.

I think forging the orcs of the mountains together is easy enough - it obviously happens often, and giant numbers of orcs sweep down. Although, personally, my theory is that it's more like migrations that end in genocides than a military thing. The orc population grows fast - I always figure orcs give birth to litters, have shorter gestation than humans, and mature faster, in something like 12 years. So every few generations, the orc population literally boils over - the barren mountains and Upper Underdark can't support it, and the easiest way to go is south (the north is glacier, the deeper Underdark is inhospitable and deadly). So the orcs migrate in enormous numbers, over a period of years. I don't think orc hordes are over quickly. Basically, there'll be initial invasions - huge forces - but even when/if those are defeated, more will keep coming, year after year, for 5-10 years. (Or longer. 10 years isn't actually very long for a war in this sort of setting, IMO.)

Indeed, "forging them together" isn't even strictly necessary. Once sufficient hordes or armies start south, more will join. They'll either be intimidated, bullied, or absorbed (I figure orcs run on "might is right"; if you kill the chief, you're the chief, because the chief could kill any orc who argued with him), or they'll join of their own free will - after all, they know (from experience, or from centuries of tradition and folklore) that the south is full of riches, food, and things to kill and bully and exert your might over, and chances to prove yourself great and strong and win a mate. So, once you get a large enough force of orcs moving, the phenomenon will snowball, especially if the initial attacks are successful. (So starting with softer targets, like Nesme, may be a good idea.)

I also think this means that the horde will happen along the entire length of the Spine of the World east of the Anauroch, in dribs and drabs and massive outpourings, poorly directed but savage. And they don't need to be directed. Once orcs control some specific area, Zarigaar just needs to be able to bring to bear enough power to get them to agree that he's their boss. The disorganization works to his advantage in this way. So long as he controls the plurality (not majority) of the power, he's good.

The main thing is alliances. The orcs are going to lack "heavy guns" on their own, and there's a lot arrayed against them. This is where Zarigaar can make the difference - "anyone" can make an orc horde, and IMO no special leader is even required (see above). But Zarigaar can get them the allies to do real damage and really threaten to overthrow realms in the North.

1. Dragons. This is probably the hardest. IIRC both Silverymoon and Waterdeep are seriously warded against dragons, so they're of limited use in those sieges, but you have to have them to counter spellcasters, heroes, and good/opposed dragons. There's a lot in the North, including the Morueme clan in the Nether Mountains, Klauth in the High Forest, the green dragons of the High Forest, the dragons of the Star Mounts, and no doubt great numbers in the Spine of the World and the glacier beyond. They're going to be expensive, though.

2. Giants. Hill giants and ogres are easy - they'll probably eagerly join orcs with little persuasion for a chance at loot and fighting. If you're using Gerti Orelsdotter and her frost giants, or a similar powerful giant leader, it gets trickier, but frost giants would make an awesome addition. They could also fold the trolls of the Evermoors into the hordes, which would really help destroy Nesmé, which could be a big part of getting the real horde going.

3. The Arcane Brotherhood. Is Luskan a target, or would they be willing to countenance being part of an orc-ruled North? Who knows. The Hosttower of the Arcane is going to be a consideration no matter what - that's a big concentration of arcane power, and they could probably hold off a horde of just orcs, or even a small number of dragons.

4. Drow. Are they willing to help? For what price? This might actually force Zarigaar to attack the High Forest to kill and enslave the elves there. And there's going to be the inevitable betrayal, unless Zarigaar can keep any weaknesses from them until they finally withdraw back into their cities. What would the drow want, though? Do they need slaves so badly? If it's just slaves or killing elves, they could just fight their own war in the shadow of the orc horde - raiding the surface world will be much easier under cover of war.

5. Fiends. I think you've got this covered, and Hellgate Keep tells us that fiends definitely want to mess up things on this scale. You might include some specific balors, pit fiends, or even higher-level fiends (does FR actually use the Dukes etc. of Hell or the Demon Princes/Lords?) who may pose a threat to Zarigaar in the long run. I think it's more likely that slightly lower-level fiends (glabrezu, vrocks, etc.) would support him on the chance of becoming his closest lieutenants and highest servants when he elevates himself.

There's other possible players to this war - Daemonfey, Phaerimm, Shadovar, the Scourged Legion - but I think they all alter the tone of the campaign substantially, and would detract from the focus of it, so I'll not venture there. (My own campaign did include a bunch of vague planning about the Daemonfey infiltrating the Eldreth Veluuthra, but it was intended as a long campaign with new threats rising as old ones are put down, not all at once in a big free-for-all.)

Also, international reactions. What are the Zhentarim, Baldur's Gate, the cities of the Heartlands, Cormyr, Elminster (I'd just go with him being trapped in the Lower Planes or something, myself), etc. going to do while this all goes on? This may be something even the Zhentarim won't see a benefit to (although the churches of Bane and Cyric, or sects therein, might), so you might see very unlikely alliances.

On that note: deities. FR is supposed to have fairly active (if indirectly) deities, so what are they doing during all this? The orc pantheon will probably be taking an interest, and acting through clerics or champions. Other gods will, too - Mielikki for the High Forest, maybe the Seldarine, Lolth, Selûne, Torm, Tyr, Helm...

Running out of steam and losing focus, so I'll stop here.

[angry_bear]

As far as Drow go, you'd be best off with just using Bregan D'aerthe in my opinion. Fairly large sized, and capable mercenary band which can be used as an advanced assault in various cities. Not full scale warfare, but surgical strikes on high ranking members of each area that the horde is targeting. So that, by the time the Horde arrives anyone capable of organizing the defenses have already been eliminated, and Bregan D'aerthe has already moved on to the next target.

As far as including races like the Beholders and Mind Flayers go... I think I'd hold off on it. Beholders are just as likely to devastate the horde as they are to work alongside them. The same goes for Illithids, they might play better with others than the Beholders, but I don't see much reason for them to be working with a group like this. Neither one are traditionally known as mercenary races, and it takes a lot for it to become believable that they would work for what they see as an inferior species.

You're better off using monsters that are more willing to work with other species... Like the forces of hell or dragons.

[Spuddles]

I don't see this invasion doing much more than splintering silverymoon and maybe waterdeep. Once that happens, your 8 wisdom orc gets backstabbed 3 ways by drow and drow allies, and he won't see it coming.

The problem with using drow in any meaningful way is that you have drow that are actually relevant (ass opposed to lvl 1 warrior grist), and their stupid religion pretty much guarantees them turning on you.

What are you going to do about Drow traitors?

[edit]
beholders will work if you give them a great deal of autonomy and keep them far away from other beholders. Once a beholder realizes that you are working with other beholders, its xenophobia might kick in and cause to run amok.

Beholders are awesome, but need compartmentalization. Don't expose them to any useful units. They can petrify/enslave any low level goblin/orc/hill giant they want, but dont let them capture your rooks and knights.

Use them to hold places, guard treasure, or breach fortifications. Don't use them as artillery units in large scale battles, though. They'd be better off being moved next to a target and then letting them do their own thing with some
Minions.

[Rhynn]

Also, for basically most of the allies, you may want to look up Silverymoon's defenses in The Silver Marches... there's a mythal on the city that is an enormous factor in how any siege would play out, because it has (IIRC) an antipathy effect on drow, evil dragons, fiends, possibly orcs and giants... or you could ignore that nonsense because seriously why do they even have that?


I don't see this invasion doing much more than splintering silverymoon and maybe waterdeep. Once that happens, your 8 wisdom orc gets backstabbed 3 ways by drow and drow allies, and he won't see it coming.

Yeah, CE orcs are totally unfamiliar with betrayal, and Int 18 does not help you form long-term plans like this. :smallamused:

[hamishspence]

seriously why do they even have that?

Because the makers of the mythal know how often fiends, dragons, orcs, etc have wreaked havoc, and took steps to ensure the city would not suffer the same fate as its predecessors?

[Rhynn]

Because the makers of the mythal know how often fiends, dragons, orcs, etc have wreaked havoc, and took steps to ensure the city would not suffer the same fate as its predecessors?

So why doesn't every other city in Faerûn have one? I don't even remember who made it, but mythals are freaking Elven High Magic. Is Alustriel an Elven High Mage now? (Well, right, okay, she's a Chosen of Marysue-stra so probably.)

I hate it about as much as I hate the Waterdeep wards (no dragons, etc.). Neither exist in my Faerûn, because they are plot-blockers more than anything else, and reek of "magic, magic everywhere, except the proliferation is in no way logical and incredibly powerful magic is relatively more common than weak magic" ...

[hamishspence]

So why doesn't every other city in Faerûn have one? I don't even remember who made it, but mythals are freaking Elven High Magic. Is Alustriel an Elven High Mage now? (Well, right, okay, she's a Chosen of Marysue-stra so probably.)

I think she wasn't the primary caster of that one- but one among many, with the lead caster being an Elven High Mage.

Even in Faerun, elven high mages are not common.

[angry_bear]

Also, for basically most of the allies, you may want to look up Silverymoon's defenses in The Silver Marches... there's a mythal on the city that is an enormous factor in how any siege would play out, because it has (IIRC) an antipathy effect on drow, evil dragons, fiends, possibly orcs and giants... or you could ignore that nonsense because seriously why do they even have that?



Yeah, CE orcs are totally unfamiliar with betrayal, and Int 18 does not help you form long-term plans like this. :smallamused:

See, that could explain the usage of a race like Mind Flayers or Beholders. If it has no effect on those two races, you could say that their abilities are used to circumvent the Antipathy spell for the rest of the horde.

And true, the problem of Drow betraying the others is there. However, just about any of these races are likely to backstab one another if given the chance. The leader of the horde is fleshed out to be a pretty terrifying opponent, and as long as he's around, it stands to reason he can keep everyone on track. Provided Lolth has no direct bearing on things, which is why a group like Bregan D'aerthe makes sense to me, rather than say, a full alliance with Menzoberranzan or another city.

If you really want to use Duergar, rather than marching alongside everything else, what if they're the ones providing armaments? Suddenly your Orcs aren't in scrub gear, but Dwarven crafted weapons and armour. Not to mention the potential of more advanced siege weapons that would be normally available to most savage kin. There is the issue of them allying with Daemons though, since they're pretty closely connected to the Nine Hells...

[hamishspence]

The high mage of Silverymoon at the time the wards were raised:

http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Silverymoon

was Amaara Nharimlur, an elf, who later left for Evermeet, leaving Elue (Alustriel) in charge.

[Spuddles]

Also, for basically most of the allies, you may want to look up Silverymoon's defenses in The Silver Marches... there's a mythal on the city that is an enormous factor in how any siege would play out, because it has (IIRC) an antipathy effect on drow, evil dragons, fiends, possibly orcs and giants... or you could ignore that nonsense because seriously why do they even have that?



Yeah, CE orcs are totally unfamiliar with betrayal, and Int 18 does not help you form long-term plans like this. :smallamused:

Int lets you understand the hustle, wisdom lets you know when you're being hustled.

With Drow, it's a matter of when, not if. Unless you've got a good gambit, they're turning on you, and if they were worth using, when they turn, it's going to hurt.

The other races backstabbing is easy enough to stop- you show up and hit them until they remember why you're leader. Drow backstab for the lolz. They're like the 4chan of Faerun. The nature of the betrayal is different, and worse, because they're just trollin. They have no reason to betray other than betrayal itself. Drow allies are more trouble than they're worth.

[Rhynn]

And true, the problem of Drow betraying the others is there. However, just about any of these races are likely to backstab one another if given the chance. The leader of the horde is fleshed out to be a pretty terrifying opponent, and as long as he's around, it stands to reason he can keep everyone on track. Provided Lolth has no direct bearing on things, which is why a group like Bregan D'aerthe makes sense to me, rather than say, a full alliance with Menzoberranzan or another city.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure it didn't cover nearly all evil creatures, or even all the typical ones - just the ones that are the most common threats to cities in the North.


If you really want to use Duergar, rather than marching alongside everything else, what if they're the ones providing armaments? Suddenly your Orcs aren't in scrub gear, but Dwarven crafted weapons and armour. Not to mention the potential of more advanced siege weapons that would be normally available to most savage kin. There is the issue of them allying with Daemons though, since they're pretty closely connected to the Nine Hells...

They could also be used as siege engineers in assaulting the dwarven citadels of the Silver Marches from th Underdark - they'd probably be happy to do it, and they'd be great at it. I personally think orcs, and deep orcs especially, are great at siege work (and deep orcs IIRC are incredible smiths, though probably not dwarf-level), but those citadels have to be invested IMO, and you can't have too many troops.

[Seharvepernfan]

Some of the evil power groups of the Realms might also be attracted to this warlord's cause, especially if there's a (sincere or not) promise of favor in the new order.

I mentioned that, the hosttower of the arcane, specifically. I imagine the Zhentarim and the Kraken society would be against the horde, and I doubt the Eldreth Veluuthra are cool with orcs at all. khaanyr Vhok would probably add in to the horde. The daemonfey might try to take advantage of the horde and direct it towards their enemies, but overall would be against it. The Shades are probably in favor, and may even help out behind the scenes, just to weaken the world around them (I imagine they would consider an orc-ruled area much easier to deal with than the northern realms at present). The Red Wizards are a crap shoot - they could go either way, I think. The Malaurgryms would probably see it as a chance to go wreak havoc free of restraint. I just don't know enough about the Cult of the Dragon to say with them. Phaerimm...I can't even. Any disagreements? Did I miss anybody important?


They need a trump card to do anything serious.

They kinda do have a trump card, in a sense. They have a well-equipped secret second army (deep orcs), secret highly dangerous/capable secret ops (drow/duergar/illithids), a handful of powerful monsters (red dragon, beholders), and most importantly; an eventual army of fiends.

Zarigaar doesn't have any ranks in knowledges outside of arcana, so he's not personally knowledgable about the various realms/cities/personalities, but anybody knows about waterdeep and silverymoon, and he definitely has the ability to gather knowledge and intel about them (through minions/casting/brokers/etc).

He would know better than to directly assault either one without some serious power (a flight of dragons, an army of fiends, several high-level casters, etc), so he would instead surround them, cutting them off from their mundane supply routes and infrastructure, forcing them to either come out and fight him or hole-up. Once he had their territories under his control (and probably weakened their armed forces a little in fights outside of the cities), he could wait and let them starve/spend resources, then besiege them from every angle with a concentrated army.

There are a lot of things the cities could do in turn, but that's the basic idea.


*Everything you said.

We see things very similarly and are on the same page. I like that.

Zarigaar knows better than to assault the dwarven strongholds directly. Instead, he would take their surface territory (what little they actually care about) and force them to hole-up or come out and fight him. The horde would want to, but he could hold them off with promises and direct them to easier targets. Dwarven armies aren't very dangerous out in the open.

That said, Zarigaar himself could lead a relatively small but very dangerous force right into the dwarf holds, via teleportation/hired-gate-caster or even dedicated and magically augmented tunneling and wreak havoc. Himself plus his strongest champions, his elite deep orc strike teams, and his drow/duergar special ops...that'd be hard to stop if he was really trying.

He most likely wouldn't try that with Waterdeep or Silverymoon, at least not with their wards standing.

However, of the dwarf holds, only Mithral Hall is directly in its path. Felbarr, Adrar, and to some extent Sundabar, are too far east and surrounded with too much nothingness to be targets early on. They would only become real targets if the horde was successful enough in other, more southwesterly areas. Some of the horde would hold their surface territory, making their lives difficult, but not enough to actually besiege them.

Sundabar would only stand while its walls stood. If giants bouldered down the walls, or if orcs were dropped in en-masse from aerial beasts, I don't think the city would last too long. The Moonwood would burn, its attackers just have too much sheer power and numbers. Everlund would be a speedbump. Everything inside the triangle of Silverymoon/Luskan/Waterdeep would be toast, eventually.

Icewind Dale, Anauroch, the High Forest and everything east of it, would all likely be safe. They don't have enough to be worth the horde's time and attention. The first few miles of the High Forest would be consumed for supplies, but an actual attack/siege wouldn't happen unless the horde was very successful everywhere else. However, if Khaanyr Vhok decided to get in on the action, he could probably take the forest since no outside intervention is likely to stop him (unless evermeet/evereska elves portaled in to stop him).

As with Waterdeep and Silverymoon, he would only attack them once he's dealt with all of the surrounding area and could besiege them with a strong and concentrated effort and time commitment. Cutting waterdeep off from the sea shouldn't be too hard, all he has to do is get a bunch of ships and staff them with orcs. It would be somewhat challenging to keep the orcs disciplined while waiting around on ships, but it's doable.

Alternatively, he could get pirates in on the action. I imagine they would relish the chance to really raid Waterdeep. With the backing of his horde, they wouldn't have much to fear from the various authorities. If Zarigaar did get Luskan in on the action (maybe by sparing them and promising them Neverwinter once this was all done with), he could use their pirates/naval forces to do this with. I think that Neverwinter would be toast, regardless. I don't see them defending against this horde - they're too isolated and too close to it's origin.

I know of Deszeldaryndun and Valamaradace; I imagine that when dealing with powerful dragons (as he knows he would, inevitably), he would have to put together a dedicated anti-dragons team, or else recruit powerful wyrms of his own. I don't think that either would be particularly hard (that is, putting together the team and having them succeed against lone attacking dragons, not simply holding off any dragon attack). Convincing powerful evil dragons to effectively, if not directly, join his horde would be fairly simple. He has the charisma/skills/legitimacy to pull it off, and they would probably enjoy the destruction and treasure-reaping. He is smart enough to grant them autonomy in their efforts, and could probably convince/force some of the weaker ones into doing what he wants, when he wants, if necessary.

Regarding the "forging" of the orc horde; Zarigaar knew to do it right when the orc population was ripe for a horde, basically just as you said. You have a perfect grasp of horde idea. Zarigaar is compounding the effects of a large orc horde by adding in armies of other races (goblins/ogres/giants/deep orcs) with a handful of key allies (drow mercenary teams, illithid psi-ops, disciplined deep orc heavy infantry, evil aerial monsters, evil folk of the southern lands [pirates/khaanyr Vhok/certain organizations]) and the genius strategies of himself and his allied commanders/advisors (hired mages, high-level orc shaman advisors, deep orc generals, drow intel, etc).

Dragons: they're only going to be expensive if he has to actually hire them. The idea is entice them with their own desire for destruction/treasure/slaves/whatever, and the knowledge that they won't be stopped by the combined powers of the various realms, who are too busy dealing with the horde. He will have the wealth to actually hire some of them some of the time, however, if he can't persuade/force them.

I hadn't considered the Evermoor Trolls, but I can't see any reason why they wouldn't also get in with the horde. I don't think he'd bother too much with any giants more powerful than hill giants - they'd prove too hard to control. I imagine he'd let them do their own thing alongside or behind his horde, as long as they don't interfere - he would expect them to independently (and maybe cooperatively) attack some of the same targets he is, if only because of the opportunity provided.

With Luskan, I asked the same question. Would they lend their strength in order to be spared and promised compensation later? Or would they try and fight against him? I personally think they would go along with him, to some extent anyway. They've always wanted to be the real power around, and in a devastated, post-orc-horde north where they were spared, that's exactly what they'd be.

I do know that forgotten realms does have the various lords of hell and demon princes, but I don't know enough about them and the various named-balors/pit-fiends/etc. I don't think the specifics would be too important by the time armies of fiends add in. I think if the various enemies of the horde were to have any hope of succeeding, they'd have to stop the horde from opening any gates to let the fiends in. I think that'd be the last real fight to matter.

Baldurs Gate, the heartlands, and the western heartlands wouldn't matter much unless either the horde succeeded farther north, or they chose to go north/northwest and help the others fight it (which they'd probably do, knowing that they're next).

Regarding Elminster, the various chosen, and any other epic goodly casters, all I can say is: of course they're going to help fight (read: curbstomp) the horde unless they're too busy with something else. As I understand it, all the epic people of the realms are held in balance by each other. If Elminster dedicated himself to fighting the horde, all his various epic-power enemies will take the chance to move against him.

The various gods and churces? Probably doing what you'd expect, and holding each other in check, as usual. Specifically, I can't say. I imagine the good ones would be dedicating themselves to helping stop the horde, the neutral ones too if they're threatened, and the evil ones if they don't decide to join the horde and are also threatened. If someone has a good grasp of this subject, I'd love to hear from them.


*What you said.

I wasn't going to say Bregan Daerthe specifically, but something along those lines; mercenary bands of drow, not politically aligned forces of drow cities.
What you said about their tactics and usage is pretty much what I was thinking, in addition to actual spy work/intel gathering and sabotage.

With the beholders I mentioned, it'd be just half a dozen; part of a random collection of powerful monsters being utilized by Zarigaar. Those beholders in particular might be hired, they might be beholden to Zarigaar for some reason (enchantment magic, a powerful item, or some reason of their own). Basically, they're just a representation of his personal power and charisma.

With the illithids, assuming there are any mercenary ones to be hired that he believes to be trustworthy enough to use even sparingly, he will do just that, giving them basically whatever they want. More than anything, they're probably advisors (among many, many others), something of a secret police among the horde, and captive interrogation only, not seeing much actual field use.

I understand your point. I'm well aware of the nature of these various races, which is why they're only barely being used, relatively. Zarigaar is very smart and saavy concerning the various natures of the evil races (he is half deep orc, half glabrezu, you know). He's also high level, having attained more than half of those in the underdark.

In case I didn't make it clear in my first few posts, the various underdark forces Zarigaar uses are tiny in number compared to his horde. It's basically a few individuals of the more powerful races (beholders, illithids), a few bands of the next most powerful ones (drow, duergar), and an army of deep orcs (still tiny compared to the orc horde).


I don't see this invasion doing much more than splintering silverymoon and maybe waterdeep. Once that happens, your 8 wisdom orc gets backstabbed 3 ways by drow and drow allies, and he won't see it coming.

Not necessarily, as argued above in several places.


The problem with using drow in any meaningful way is that you have drow that are actually relevant (ass opposed to lvl 1 warrior grist), and their stupid religion pretty much guarantees them turning on you.

What are you going to do about Drow traitors?

Drow are pragmatic too, and we're only talking about independent bands of mercenaries, not aligned political forces. Of course backstabbing is going to happen, but on what level, and for whom? Why would the drow turn on Zarigaar as long as his forces stay on the surface (which they plan to)?

As I said above, he's well aware of the nature of all the various components of his horde. Hell, Salvatore, basically the creator of realms drow culture with all its crazy, backwards, CEness, wrote a series of books about four drow, four, who started an orc-horde/frost giant alliance, just for fun, and eventually died trying to keep it together. So, there is precendent.


beholders will work if you give them a great deal of autonomy and keep them far away from other beholders. Once a beholder realizes that you are working with other beholders, its xenophobia might kick in and cause to run amok.

Beholders are awesome, but need compartmentalization. Don't expose them to any useful units. They can petrify/enslave any low level goblin/orc/hill giant they want, but dont let them capture your rooks and knights.

Use them to hold places, guard treasure, or breach fortifications. Don't use them as artillery units in large scale battles, though. They'd be better off being moved next to a target and then letting them do their own thing with some
Minions.

Granted. They're part of his personal guard, remember. That said, the Zhentarim/Banites seem to handle beholders pretty well, so we know it's possible.

Regarding Mythals: As I understand it, mythals are to magic what castles are to physical forces. They keep the demons and what-not from just teleporting in and wreaking havoc. As mentioned, certain races who are not prevented by the mythals from entering the city could act as special ops in destroying or otherwise negating the mythals. Zarigaar might even hire evil adventurers to do this part. I'm not decided on it - discuss away.


They could also be used as siege engineers in assaulting the dwarven citadels of the Silver Marches from th Underdark - they'd probably be happy to do it, and they'd be great at it. I personally think orcs, and deep orcs especially, are great at siege work (and deep orcs IIRC are incredible smiths, though probably not dwarf-level), but those citadels have to be invested IMO, and you can't have too many troops.

That is likely the best use of duergar. They still function as stealthy, elite heavy infantry, but yeah, that's their key use. I do not see them supplying the horde with arms and armor, because as you mentioned, the deep orcs are gonna be the mass producers of it, and the vast orc horde is just too big to equip each individual. Besides, most of the orcs that matter will be barbarians who shun heavy armor (not that many couldn't make use of it). I also think the orcs need to be light and fast to be effective.

When siege-ing, orcs fill the fodder roll very well. I agree that Deep Orcs probably excel at siege work, and would do it when/where the duergar weren't available. I did have another campaign idea where a high level sorceress hand-picks a special army of members from several evil races, culminating in skullcrusher ogres outfitted by dwarven smiths, being gated into cities to conquer them, with hobgoblin infantry moving in to hold the conquered territory.

I'm aware that I'm making it seem too easy for Zarigaar. It's just that I expect the real challenge to come from various factors - adventurers/mages/organizations/powerful individuals and monsters. The Harpers for instance, you know that they're gonna be pulling all kinds of strings to get all sorts of people involved in fighting the horde.

For instance:
-using stealth/beguiler-magic/cha-skills to turn the various horde-forces against each other
-manipulating the various enemies of the horde, even evil ones, into fighting against it in a coordinated fashion
-manipulating adventurers/monsters of all stripes into working against the horde, and aiding any that do (with items, info, healing, support magic, surprise attacks in key areas, etc)

And that's just the harpers.

[00dlez]

They kinda do have a trump card, in a sense. They have a well-equipped secret second army (deep orcs), secret highly dangerous/capable secret ops (drow/duergar/illithids), a handful of powerful monsters (red dragon, beholders), and most importantly; an eventual army of fiends.

Zarigaar doesn't have any ranks in knowledges outside of arcana, so he's not personally knowledgable about the various realms/cities/personalities, but anybody knows about waterdeep and silverymoon, and he definitely has the ability to gather knowledge and intel about them (through minions/casting/brokers/etc).

He would know better than to directly assault either one without some serious power (a flight of dragons, an army of fiends, several high-level casters, etc), so he would instead surround them, cutting them off from their mundane supply routes and infrastructure, forcing them to either come out and fight him or hole-up. Once he had their territories under his control (and probably weakened their armed forces a little in fights outside of the cities), he could wait and let them starve/spend resources, then besiege them from every angle with a concentrated army.

There are a lot of things the cities could do in turn, but that's the basic idea.



The secret deeporc army is fine, but when Silverymoon is conquered, you should be able to justify how they were able to over come the wards and city defenders.

A lot of talk has been made about how difficult it is to keep an evil army of backstabbers and power mongers together and I agree. If I were running this situation, I would set a time limit before control is lost. Accomplishing tasks (like capturing cities) or thwarting plots (killing an assassin before his plot is complete) would buy more time, but eventually betrayl would take place. Obviously this would be several months, if not years, but the threat is constant, and without true prizes like the major cities, than our little orc warlord won't be in power for long.

[Rhynn]

If I were running this situation, I would set a time limit before control is lost. Accomplishing tasks (like capturing cities) or thwarting plots (killing an assassin before his plot is complete) would buy more time, but eventually betrayl would take place. Obviously this would be several months, if not years, but the threat is constant, and without true prizes like the major cities, than our little orc warlord won't be in power for long.

This is a great idea, and I'd totally use it. Instead of PCs defeating the horde outright, they'd basically delay it here and there with key strikes, destabilizing it, causing Zarigaar to lose control of it, breaking his alliances and eventually seeing it break down into separately manageable and uncoordinated tribes and groups.

Naturally, the way I'd run this sort of thing would be to create a timeline for when things happen ("Sundabar falls on Alturiak 9th"), without PC interference - although in this case, small changes early on might completely wreck the timeline a few months down the line. Still, I think starting with an idea of what will happen if no PCs get involved is essential. (Basically, everyone who isn't the PCs fails in whatever way feasible at key moments, and it's up to the PCs to find some of those key moments and turn them into successes instead.)

[ericp65]

Was it mentioned (or decided upon) what year in Dalereckoning this campaign is set to kick off?

[Seharvepernfan]

Post 21 & 22: Granted, the horde would be difficult to keep together (but who could do it better than him?), and would need goalposts and time limits, but that's a matter for the DM.

Post 23: No, but 1374 would be a good time, what with all that devastation from the dragons the year before.

[russdm]

I thought i would point out some major failings that you are not taking into account: NPCs, and some others.

NCPs: You are making a bad assumption regarding the way that NPCs work in Faerun. They are not kept in any kind balance of power. There are no powerful epic level casters that would prevent Elminister from doing something if he wanted to. Good and Evil are not balanced, the evil groups are always busy trying to shift things in their favor. In fact, the other evil epic casters would allow elminister to go off and deal with Zary's horde because it benefits them. Also, Zary would be approached by the various evil groups who would want a piece of pie (conquests). Also, his enemies are not going to be caught with their britches down unless Zary went seriously out of his way to avoid having his plans known.

With the magic available, the opposed good aligned races can send in spies to find out whats happening and report that back. Nor are they going to ignore the slow gathering of orc tribes and not send spies to investigate. Since most anybody who had experienced the attacks of previous orc hordes are not going to sit still and do nothing to find out everything they can, Zary's enemies will use spies to find out what plans they can, employ divination magic to supplant their spies' information, and make plans based on what they find out.

You are also seriously presupposing a lack of initiative on the part of places/peoples that Zary has to conquer or crush. Waterdeep's lords and inhabitants will not stand idly by and allow a horde of orcs to approach or surround their city. That would be the same for every place that Zary will march through. Assuming otherwise means that they are acting dumb to suit your players being the heroes. Thats not how people act and Faerun is not built on that flimsy excuse either. The PCs are not movers and shakers in the realm until they have reached the levels of those epic casters. Also, Waterdeep has a massive population of adventurers plus Skullport, so they would take action against the horde.

Tactics: Standard tactics or stragety in a world without magic don't apply in one with magic. Employing a Siege is not a viable tactic since magic can be employed regarding teh need of supplies. Clerics can just make more via magic, and mages can teleport stuff in through ways. Plus, laying siege to a city produces nice targets of the horde for removal. Also, with the magic for teleporting and the like, defenders would have learned or come up with ways to counteract those approaches. To make Zary's little rush of conquest even work, all enemies he faces have to be completely stupid and do nothing that would make sense.

Logistics: Supplying a massive horde like Zary's will be a bigger deal breaker than the leadership or alliances with other races. IF the players can cripple the supply line/chain, that big orc horde will have butt handed to it. Without the necessary supplies, Zary's nice horde cannot fight and is unable to function effectively. Losing supply chains/lines will weaken the horde faster and make it have to withdraw from fights. Also, having the good aligned races/sides that are fighting against Zary employ a scorched earth policy will also affect how well the horde can function. Once no longer able to replace supplies that get used, Zary's horde begins to fracture apart severely.

Communications: Keeping the various leaders properly informed is not something orcs do well. Zary will need to have a strong system of communications going to get the biggest advantages out of his horde. If the enemy cuts links between units or forces in the horde, they can be destroyed without anyone finding out in enough time to do anything about it. Having a good communication system will keep the horde functional.

Magic: This is major issue because most the areas to be conquered by Zary will have stronger magic support than he will. Waterdeep is an adventurer's city since most of the population is adventurers and there are alot nearby that could be called upon. Most orc spellcasters tend not to become strong since they don't usually do alot of adventuring. Also, having to rely on other races/groups for his spellcasting needs weakens Zary indirectly and will directly if something happens to them. There are alot of spells available that could help in disrupting the horde that the casters in Zary's horde would not have.

Alliances: Few of the races is Zary's horde like working with each other, and most of those he would ally with think less of orcs than each other. They might be unwilling to listen to him despite what he promises. Also, in your example of precendant, the 4 drow, those drow looked down upon the orcs they were working with anyway. Also, the races in Zary horde are less inclined to form an effective fighting group since they have widely varying thoughts and motivations and goals. Most alliances comprised of Human/dwarves/elves/etc will subsume or designate one goal, defeat the horde, and then carry out plans to make that happen. They will also be able to work together better than Zary's group. They are not prone to betrayal as much or inclined to abandon their allies as much. It makes it unlikely that those alliances that Zary has formed will last very long without one group trying to gain advantage over the others, something that his enemies won't be busy doing.

As for someone being to keep the horde together better, well, dragons would. Dragons would be more efficient at maintaining a horde because they have personal power plus their minds which are way more efficient than Zary's. Some outsiders are more efficient. As soon as Zary starts losing alot of battles or several major ones, he will lose control because he will be seen as being unable to proclaim victory, his various aides will consider themselves better able to claim victory than him and so the horde will naturally implode into in-fighting as each leader stacks a claim of leadership over the horde.

These are all points you will need to consider before handing over the task of stepping Zary and his horde to your players. Especially in Faerun.

[angry_bear]

From what I can tell, Elminster doesn't typically go that far north. So in theory, the Horde could take over a good chunk of the region before any high powered caster or other character outside of that territory in Faerun takes notice. That's probably the biggest advantage of the Horde to start with. Remember that, next to nobody arrived to assist The Ten Towns in the Icewind Dale book, or Mithral Hall in, I think it was The Hunter's Blade Trilogy?

Have things start out smaller than what you want, start by building a significant army in the North. Take care of the Ten Towns, have all the Dwarven Cities conquered, or go to ground. Then, once that is taken care of; it stands to reason that more races will join in. Even if his forces have a tougher time against lands farther south; his allies will still see him as an effective leader, capable of defeating any opponent in the long run thanks to his campaigns in the North.

[Alleran]

So why doesn't every other city in Faerûn have one? I don't even remember who made it, but mythals are freaking Elven High Magic. Is Alustriel an Elven High Mage now? (Well, right, okay, she's a Chosen of Marysue-stra so probably.)
High Mages don't grow on trees, and Alustriel didn't build the mythal. She was one of the circle casters who constructed it, but not the lead.

As I recall, Silverymoon was founded by a group of elves and humans who left in the wake of Myth Drannor's fall. Seeking to reconstruct that "dream" of harmony, they founded Silverymoon, including constructing a mythal to help protect it. And when they did so, they obviously picked the things that would be the greatest threat to them (so evil dragons, demons, and so on and so forth). If I remember rightly, their leader was a guy who'd read the elven copy of the Nether Scrolls, but I think he eventually died of old age.


Regarding Elminster, the various chosen, and any other epic goodly casters, all I can say is: of course they're going to help fight (read: curbstomp) the horde unless they're too busy with something else. As I understand it, all the epic people of the realms are held in balance by each other. If Elminster dedicated himself to fighting the horde, all his various epic-power enemies will take the chance to move against him.
As far as Elminster is concerned... well, put it this way. When Azoun IV of Cormyr drew together a coalition of nations to smash the Tuigan horde, he sent a message asking for Elminster to help them (battle magic, coordinating, that sort of thing). The reply they got was basically "get lost, I'm busy" and so Azoun had to win without a Chosen along as backup. Similarly, other Chosen and powerful good characters have responsibilities that they can't just drop. The Simbul has a kingdom to rule and Red Wizards to battle/murder/explodify. There's one Chosen down in Halruaa whose whole job is just finding interesting magic on other planes, bringing it back, and integrating it into society to encourage the spread of new magic. That's basically all he does.

Khelben and Laeral are in Waterdeep, so you'll probably encounter them, but the last time Khelben moved directly against a foe was against the Phaerimm, and only because Phaerimm are so horrendously deadly (and Evereska was under siege). Other than that, he waited until the sahuagin invasion was literally at Waterdeep's doorstep before he actually took part openly. Ditto for Laeral. I wouldn't expect them to take part until Waterdeep is actually threatened.

Alustriel will be governing Silverymoon, so she's probably the first one that will be encountered. One way or the other, Silverymoon has to be smashed to get a "forward base" that can be relied upon (unless you go for Neverwinter or Luskan - not Evereska, since it has a mythal that likes dropping meteor swarms on a round-by-round basis against enemies). Thing is, Alustriel is also a ruler. She can't charge out alone - if she engages in direct combat, it'll be with help.

Incidentally, of all the Chosen of Mystra, only the Simbul has the Epic Spellcasting feat. Storm doesn't even have 9th level spells (neither does Dove). But I wouldn't count on them for help at the outset. Hell, for all the effort that the Chosen have collectively put into Cormyr over the centuries, they didn't lift a finger when the ghazneths and devil-dragon attacked it, and Greenwood himself co-wrote that series.

Maybe if Waterdeep itself was under siege, you could count on them to start showing up and helping. But there's a long way to go before that happens - Waterdeep is the adventurer capital of Faerun, filled with all manner of characters (high and low level), can be easily resupplied from the sea (and is a major naval power in the North), has Skullport below (and Skullport doesn't like attempts to subvert it), can't be destroyed via sapping to under-cut the walls (there was a dwarven kingdom, Ammarindar, I think, and thanks to them you could chop away at the rock and foundations all you want, but it won't cause a collapse), is a bastion of several deities and warrior orders, the Harpers have a stronghold there, and is warded against dragons (and the dragons living there wouldn't take kindly to something threatening their home, since some of them pay quite a high price to bypass the warding against them in the first place).

Taking Waterdeep would be the crown jewel of this horde's campaign. I'd advise not worrying too much about it for the moment, and instead looking at what Zaarigar will need to do first. Crossing bridges when you come to them, in essence.


Regarding Mythals: As I understand it, mythals are to magic what castles are to physical forces. They keep the demons and what-not from just teleporting in and wreaking havoc. As mentioned, certain races who are not prevented by the mythals from entering the city could act as special ops in destroying or otherwise negating the mythals. Zarigaar might even hire evil adventurers to do this part. I'm not decided on it - discuss away.
There are three ways to nullify a mythal.

1) Corrupt the land around it and kill it. That will damage and eventually render the mythal unstable. Then destroy it.
2) Find the capstone and disjoin it.
3) Straight-up dispel the thing.

Both of the first two require the mythal to have been designed with a capstone or to be corruptible. If it isn't, then you're SOL, because the only way that the mythal is coming down is with a seriously badass caster level check. Silverymoon's is corruptible, but you'd probably need to wreck Silverymoon itself as part of it. Sort of a catch-22, but possible if you can get around the rest of the problems. Waterdeep's dragon warding takes a DC 90-odd check to bring down, IIRC.

Mythals can and often do function to ward out demons, devils, dragons and so on, but that's only a part of their function. They're less castles and more "ballistic (nuclear) missile defense shield systems" as far as comparisons go. Silverymoon's, for one, nulls any attempt to conjure/summon creatures or (I think) cast evil spells, among other things (such as a host of SLAs granted to casters inside it that go through an attuning ritual). If you're in the mythal, those spells won't work. And they can't be cast outside and aimed/taken inside, either.


There are no powerful epic level casters that would prevent Elminister from doing something if he wanted to.
Elminster himself says otherwise in the "Concerns of the Mighty" sidebar from the 3rd edition FRCS, actually.

[ngilop]

Int lets you understand the hustle, wisdom lets you know when you're being hustled.

With Drow, it's a matter of when, not if. Unless you've got a good gambit, they're turning on you, and if they were worth using, when they turn, it's going to hurt.

The other races backstabbing is easy enough to stop- you show up and hit them until they remember why you're leader. Drow backstab for the lolz. They're like the 4chan of Faerun. The nature of the betrayal is different, and worse, because they're just trollin. They have no reason to betray other than betrayal itself. Drow allies are more trouble than they're worth.

THis is the funniest thing ive read on GiTP the whole time ive been on the forums. those drow dey be trollin' dey hatin'
I am sorely tempted to quote that last paragraph...

[Trugbild]

For starters, i really like your idea.

The biggest problems i see are the low budget solutions to such hordes.
For example the "Contagion"-Spell, this used on your horde would mess with your plans big time. What did you plan to prevent the orcs to die by the hundreds or maybe thousands because of some sickness?

[Seharvepernfan]

I don't see contagion being a big deal. Only two of the diseases it mentions are "contact", and they both have an incubation period of only one day and both have visual indications, meaning that anyone infected can be isolated.

Also, the DCs are low, so even orc healers can deal with it, if any were inclined to try.

The easiest way to deal with it would be to send the infected, and anyone they've been around in the last day, towards an objective on their own (probably a fairly suicidal one).

Is there something I'm missing?

[Trugbild]

Combine Cackle Fever with a herd of cattle or the water supply and you get at least 50% of the horde that are supplied with it(avg rolls). Even if you have orchealers which try to cure the sick, they won´t be able to cure that many in time(about 3 days maximum, avg rolls). And the sick won´t be able to go on suicide missions or do anything that would benefit the war.
If you don´t rule it that way that´s fine.

[Yuukale]

ok, I didn't read the replies to you since they are enormous, but here's my contribution and sorry if I'm just old news.

First, try reading "the hunter's blade trilogy", "the orc king" and "the pirate king". What you're doing is a mix of what happens on these books.

I second what someone said about using Bregan D'aerthe but think thoroughly on their reasons. Jarlaxle doesn't do stuff "for fun". He ALWAYS has a clear profit plan, if sometimes undisclosed even to his personal allies.

Your orc horde has to contend with some major players, aka the Silver Marches.

Obould Many-Arrows, veteran to orc coup already in 1374.
Mithral Hall with at least Bruenor and Drizzt on the front line.
Silverymoon with Alustriel and her knights in silver.
Sundabar and Citadels Adbar and Felbarr with dwarves aplenty.

So... not to mention the sword coast with Luskan secretly ruled by the arcane hosttower. I hardly doubt that unless you poke sea-trade, Neverwinter and Waterdeep will remain silent until the danger comes knockin home.

[DeltaEmil]

Zarigaar should actually do what Obould did. Conquer the easily conquerable part of the north, and then hold it, instead of going further south and getting your butt kicked. Turn the conquered lands into a long-lasting orc empire, which will become a reliable base for further orc hordes wanting to conquer stuff south. Since Zarigaar is actually a half-demon, he is immortal, and should bid his time, making sure that the orcs become veterans who will teach the new orc generation. Now, as an orc and a half-demon at that, he might be too chaotic to plan this or manage to create a long-lasting orc empire, or he might be too impatient and too naive to wait.

Do what Redcloak did for Gobbotopia.

[angry_bear]

Combine Cackle Fever with a herd of cattle or the water supply and you get at least 50% of the horde that are supplied with it(avg rolls). Even if you have orchealers which try to cure the sick, they won´t be able to cure that many in time(about 3 days maximum, avg rolls). And the sick won´t be able to go on suicide missions or do anything that would benefit the war.
If you don´t rule it that way that´s fine.

But who would use that kind of attack against the horde early on? Unless the PC's are evil aligned, I don't see bio warfare occurring until at least Luskan... And even then it doesn't seem as likely since it's a divine spell isn't it? I'm not saying The Host Tower doesn't have access to these kinds of spells, but can they do it on that scale? I'm not so sure...

Although the more I think about it, the more likely an alliance, or the very least a truce would be formed between Luskan and The Horde... If that were to happen, congratulations, potentially you now have approximately 140 Wizards and Sorcerers of varying levels at your disposal.

[Trugbild]

After giving the whole idea some time to work around in my head i came to the conclusion that if Zarigaar launches an avalanche like horde attack which gets reinforced as needed(deep orcs, fiends) there is not much that could stop his ambition.
I don´t know the exact numbers Zarigaar has at his disposal for the hordes. Assuming that they are really high(100k+ in normal orcs+goblins) imo a reasonable assumption.

I would go a little like this:
For every hero that thinks he can tamper with the undergoing war effort he would have at least one group of underlings that could handle that sort of distraction.
For every army that would be assembled he would simply use his superior numbers, even when he loses a couple of thousand orcs it wouldn´t matter.
The big forrests would be nice bonfires.
The guarded cities could be spared until he has established a good grip on the area from Icewind Dale in the west to Anauroch in the east and to the southborder of the High Forest(or whats left of it).
Until that point no organization or powergroup could or would do much about it because the fragile balance of power became endangered.
After that point it depends alot on things like do the alliances hold, how many "big players" are seriously annoyed and so on.
My 2 cents, thanks for reading.

[Asteron]

Forgive me for being a "negative nancy" but this is almost exactly like what happend in the Hunter's Blades Trilogy, just on a larger scale and with a slightly tougher antagonist. There is also a bit of Red Hand of Doom thrown in.

I see no reason why you would fare any better than they did, especially if you sought to threaten Waterdeep and the Lords' Aliance. Sure you could argue that you could take them piecemeal, but with the numbers you are suggesting, it would take a fool to ignore it whilst your allies fell. Alustriel and Khelben are not fools.

As far as dragons go, I could see maybe a few younger ones joining, but anything Adult age and older would likely just laugh. They are the most arrogant beings on the planet after all, and they wouldn't join with 'vermin' like orcs without ample rewards that are probably beyond your BBEG's capabilities to provide at the beginning. Besides, the more Chromatic Dragons that join in, the more Metallic Dragons join.

As far as Elminster goes, he is always doing something or another and has yet to have Szass Tam move directly against him, so he could likely spend a month or so squashing this hoard without being missed. It's not as if he just stays in his tower day and night for fear of being attacked. Also, Alustriel's word carries far more weight than Azoun's. If she were to see how big the hoard was, she would be more likely to call for aid and Elminster and Khelben would be more likely to respond.

Finally, this scenario is just begging for every adventurer in Western Faerun to come running shouting "XP! Loot!" and proceed with trashing the hoard.

[Rhynn]

Forgive me for being a "negative nancy" but this is almost exactly like what happend in the Hunter's Blades Trilogy, just on a larger scale and with a slightly tougher antagonist. There is also a bit of Red Hand of Doom thrown in.

I see no reason why you would fare any better than they did, especially if you sought to threaten Waterdeep and the Lords' Aliance. Sure you could argue that you could take them piecemeal, but with the numbers you are suggesting, it would take a fool to ignore it whilst your allies fell. Alustriel and Khelben are not fools.

Can you explain why orc hordes in the past were able to wipe out large, often more cohesive kingdoms in the North, then? Delzoun, Phalorm, Athalantar... it's a recurring theme in the history of the North.

[wayfare]

Can you explain why orc hordes in the past were able to wipe out large, often more cohesive kingdoms in the North, then? Delzoun, Phalorm, Athalantar... it's a recurring theme in the history of the North.

Well, don't they usually have some kind of backing?

[Asteron]

Can you explain why orc hordes in the past were able to wipe out large, often more cohesive kingdoms in the North, then? Delzoun, Phalorm, Athalantar... it's a recurring theme in the history of the North.

It's very simple: humans. They are quite possibly the only race that can almost keep up with orcs and goblinoids in terms of population growth. Elves and dwarves certainly can't. That is why those kingdoms fell. There are more humans now than then.

Looking at each of those kingdoms individually:

Delzoun- According to FR wiki, it fell due to the Phaerimm, not Orcs. Source cited is Lost Empires of Faerun.

Phalorm- More of an alliance of races than a true kingdom. Indeed the strongest part, the humans of Delimbiyran, grew stronger than the rest of the alliance and just established their own kingdom. That kingdom fell due to internal strife.

Athalantar- This was hardly a large, cohesive kingdom. That it fell to a large horde of orcs.

Waterdeep is the tipping point in this struggle. Waking that sleeping giant would be a big mistake. The resources they could devote to a war is far beyond that of what any orc horde could bring to bear. It is a veritable kingdom in it's own right.

My objection is the scope of the hoarde. Something that large would draw all eyes to it and that would be very detrimental to it's ambitions.

[angry_bear]

It'll eventually draw major attention, but not before they've already taken a fair amount of real estate from the nobler races. A few human cities here, a few Dwarf mines there, not a lot of the major players will take notice right away. Eventually the Horde will draw the attention of the heavy hitters, but by then there's a chance that it'll either be too big, or that guys like Elminster will instead have to focus on the Demons on the lower planes rather than what's happening on Faerun itself.

Remember that Obould, who was basically the Avatar of Gruumsh by the end of things had already carved out a decently sized, and relatively stable (As much as Orcs can be called stable at least) kingdom for the Orcs by the end of the Hunter's Blade trilogy.

[Alleran]

The guarded cities could be spared until he has established a good grip on the area from Icewind Dale in the west to Anauroch in the east and to the southborder of the High Forest(or whats left of it).
No, I think the guarded cities (Waterdeep, Silverymoon, Luskan, Neverwinter) pretty much have to be dealt with at some point, and you're going to have to take on one of the latter three before long, just to get yourself a base of operations and stable forward base. They're listed more or less in order of difficulty, most to least. Otherwise, you'll get crushed between them all.


Until that point no organization or powergroup could or would do much about it because the fragile balance of power became endangered.
Que? When a giant horde of orcs, demons/devils, aberrations and Underdark-dwellers comes boiling up out of the Spine of the World and begins rampaging across the North, the balance of power has already been endangered.

[Asteron]

It'll eventually draw major attention, but not before they've already taken a fair amount of real estate from the nobler races. A few human cities here, a few Dwarf mines there, not a lot of the major players will take notice right away. Eventually the Horde will draw the attention of the heavy hitters, but by then there's a chance that it'll either be too big, or that guys like Elminster will instead have to focus on the Demons on the lower planes rather than what's happening on Faerun itself.

Remember that Obould, who was basically the Avatar of Gruumsh by the end of things had already carved out a decently sized, and relatively stable (As much as Orcs can be called stable at least) kingdom for the Orcs by the end of the Hunter's Blade trilogy.

I think you aren't understanding the scope of what was purposed. They are talking about a way bigger horde than Obould had and he couldn't even take Mithral Hall, although he bloodied their noses. A force of enough size to threaten Silverymoon would draw Waterdeep's eye very quickly. Alustriel would not hesitate to call upon Khelben and the other Masked Lords. Rousing the Lords Alliance could very well produce a larger army than the orcs could. Unless you played the good guys very stupidly, this just wouldn't work.

[Trugbild]

@Asteron
I don´t see why Luskan should pose a problem, they have ~500 soldiers and ~150 mages. I just see no way how they could stand against the horde. Especially if Zaarigar lends his support through assasinations of the High Captains or using their paranoid nature against them shortly before he steamrolls the city.
If i am just missing the main point here i would be glad to be corrected.

[Asteron]

@Asteron
I don´t see why Luskan should pose a problem, they have ~500 soldiers and ~150 mages. I just see no way how they could stand against the horde. Especially if Zaarigar lends his support through assasinations of the High Captains or using their paranoid nature against them shortly before he steamrolls the city.
If i am just missing the main point here i would be glad to be corrected.

I was referring to Waterdeep, not Luskan.

The number of soldiers that are printed for each city are absurdly low. In the Silver Marches, the combined cities barely have 5000 soldiers listed between them. Given that they face a horde every generation or so, it would not be unexpected to have 3 (or more) times that amount. It would also not be beyond reason to see to it that every able bodied adult knew how to fight. It's not as if they live in a pacified area. The fact that the monsters in the north (supposedly) outnumber the civilized races should mean that they all take the threat of impending invasion very seriously. The numbers printed seem as if it were a regular picnic. It's plain stupid writing. If you wanted to run a campaign like that, fine, but don't pretend that it isn't completely inconsistent with how people would actually behave.

[Trugbild]

Well then i can´t make a solid argument because the base isn´t clear. The what would happen or how it would play out depends on the actual numbers that are used.
I agree that the printed numbers are very low but i used them as my groundline. That is how i came to my conclusions.

[Seharvepernfan]

I don´t know the exact numbers Zarigaar has at his disposal for the hordes. Assuming that they are really high(100k+ in normal orcs+goblins) imo a reasonable assumption.

I was thinking like ~90% of the Spine of the World being emptied. 100k actually seems a bit low to me.


...just to get yourself a base of operations and stable forward base.

Why is this necessary? I imagine that the horde is constantly moving, isn't together in one big group, and even so, there are tons and tons of strong potential bases outside of those cities. Namely, dungeons and castles.

Anyway, I see the timeline of the horde going something like this:

1. Zarigaar forms his deep orc army, then his underdark mercenaries, then the orc horde itself.
2. They swarm out of the mountains, steamrolling every farm/town/small city/whatever in its path, starting with Mithril Hall (which I don't see resisting this horde for more than a couple days, max).
3. Then it moves out in a hemishpere - crushing the Moonwood, collecting trolls from the Evermoors, and moving towards Luskan. Silverymoon is cut off from every route north of the high forest going west.
4. Luskan probably makes a deal with the horde to be spared, being promised a conquered Neverwinter later. The orcs get the support of Luskan pirates and all the ships in the harbor.
5. Neverwinter gets surrounded and crushed.

Of course there will be complications, namely adventurers and powerful mages, but as mentioned, there are counters to those (except for epic mages, but that's still a contentious issue at the moment).

Now the horde basically has two fronts - Silverymoon/dwarf citadels, and Waterdeep. I imagine to keep momentum, the horde would surround both. As for the taking of either, I can't say yet. There would undoubtedly be a great deal of battle outside the cities, but I honestly can't see the horde losing any of those fights.

The horde is sustaining itself with captured food/livestock/crops/wild game, temporarily anyway. It is also leaving behind some number of orcs to occupy the lands taken.

What gets me is that orc hordes in the past have surged all the way down to Tethyr before. I'm wondering how those went.

[Alleran]

The number of soldiers that are printed for each city are absurdly low. In the Silver Marches, the combined cities barely have 5000 soldiers listed between them.
Not many of them are generic 1st-3rd level warriors or the like, though. They have a lot of clerics, rangers, paladins, and often reach levels 4-8 or higher.

Just for reference in this topic, I went and did a brief count. By my reckoning, the "main areas" of the Silver Marches:

- 705 Knights in Silver. Varying levels, from Cleric 13/Fighter 12 on down to Warrior 1. About half are between levels 1-3, the rest are higher.
- 90 High Guard. None are below 6th level. Most are between levels 7-9.
- 32 Spellguard. None are below 5th level, most are around levels 8-10.
- The Argent Legion (numbers aren't given for how much of it is in Silverymoon).
- Alustriel (24th level) and Taern Hornblade (18th level wizard).

Sundabar:

- 1436 Shieldsar. A couple hundred of them are at or above 4th level.
- 83 Stone Shields.
- 39 Watchful.
- 206 Argent Legion members.

Citadel Felbarr:

- 783 Citadel Guard.
- 211 from a company of the Argent Legion.
- Various others (barbarians, clerics, druids, fighters, monks, rangers, etc.) ranging from levels 1-13. I didn't bother counting them.

Citadel Adbar:

- 2460 Iron Guard.
- 20 Deepscouts.
- 27 Hammers of Moradin.

Everlund:

- 1354 in the Army of the Vale.
- 187 in the City Watch.

Mithral Hall:

- 560 in the Host of the Hall.
- 21 in the Royal Guard.
- Various others that I didn't bother counting, since they're not directly military (although there are almost four thousand commoners that could be drafted if necessary - most would be dwarves).

Now, these nations are all joined together in the confederation that is the Silver Marches, and each city has more than enough wizards or sorcerers capable of casting teleport spells that they can easily coordinate amongst each other if need be. From the way Sundabar, Citadel Felbarr, Mithral Hall and Citadel Adbar are strong Dwarven holds, and Silverymoon has a mythal to retreat behind, I would suspect that their weathering of the hordes is mostly derived from an ability to retreat and fight from a fortified position. Especially for Mithral Hall, which was extraordinarily hard to besiege if I remember the Hunters Blades and Legacy series correctly.

So outside the cities and their immediate areas, adventuring bands will have a lawless wilderness to contend with. Mind you, even where I haven't given direct numbers, that doesn't mean they're level 1 warriors. By and large, the Silver Marches seems to emphasise quality over quantity.

Also, purely out of interest (and because I don't think I've ever actually looked at the figures before), I pulled up some third edition figures for Waterdeep (population 1,347,840 - this supposedly increases tremendously during the summer months). As follows:

- 100 Griffon riders. Plus griffons.
- 1200 City Guard. Increases to 12000 in times of war.
- 2000-man navy. Increases to 9000 in times of war.
- 1600 City Watchmen.
- 2 Walking Statues (only if the city itself is under attack).
- 20 Gray Hands (a group of very powerful adventurers of 13+ HD each, only called on if there's no other choice).

In addition to this, Waterdeep can call on various guilds and churches, who presumably will render all aid if it's a total war footing and especially if the city is coming under attack. I'm just giving the ones of substantial number, or great importance. Anyway:

- 1000 spellcasters from the Watchful Order of Magists (notably helped during the war against the Phaerimm).
- 50-odd from Blackstaff Tower (including Khelben and Laeral).
- 80 from the Order of the Aster (Lathanderite temple private army).
- 121 Harpers (leader is a 17th level paladin). And, you know, all the other Harpers they can call from elsewhere.
- However many dragons they have who don't want to lose their homes.
- Whatever is in Skullport that wants to help. Or is paid to help.

Beyond this, Waterdeep also has access, through the churches, to some very high-level individuals. Just from four of them (Gond, Lathander, Mystra, Selune), there's a 15th, 16th and 20th level cleric in leadership positions (Mystra's is an 18th level wizard), plus collectively over a thousand clerics in their Waterdeep temple hierarchy that they can call on, and that's before counting any other church presences in the city. It's also home to various retired and current adventuring bands (the Company of Crazed Venturers seem to all be in the 19-21 range, to name one of the high-level ones).

Waterdeep is a ridiculously tough nut to crack in comparison with any of the other cities.


What gets me is that orc hordes in the past have surged all the way down to Tethyr before. I'm wondering how those went.
As I said just above, I suspect that it functions with most of the North as wilderness, with "points of light" around the cities. Hordes just roll on through, and as long as they're outside the influence zone in which the cities would actually strike at them, not much happens.

This would also explain partly how Obould was able to establish his kingdom - he's just occupying wilderness in large part, not actually striking into the heart of any of the city-controlled areas.

[wayfare]

Not many of them are generic 1st-3rd level warriors or the like, though. They have a lot of clerics, rangers, paladins, and often reach levels 4-8 or higher.

Just for reference in this topic, I went and did a brief count. By my reckoning, the "main areas" of the Silver Marches:

- 705 Knights in Silver. Varying levels, from Cleric 13/Fighter 12 on down to Warrior 1. About half are between levels 1-3, the rest are higher.
- 90 High Guard. None are below 6th level. Most are between levels 7-9.
- 32 Spellguard. None are below 5th level, most are around levels 8-10.
- The Argent Legion (numbers aren't given for how much of it is in Silverymoon).
- Alustriel (24th level) and Taern Hornblade (18th level wizard).

Sundabar:

- 1436 Shieldsar. A couple hundred of them are at or above 4th level.
- 83 Stone Shields.
- 39 Watchful.
- 206 Argent Legion members.

Citadel Felbarr:

- 783 Citadel Guard.
- 211 from a company of the Argent Legion.
- Various others (barbarians, clerics, druids, fighters, monks, rangers, etc.) ranging from levels 1-13. I didn't bother counting them.

Citadel Adbar:

- 2460 Iron Guard.
- 20 Deepscouts.
- 27 Hammers of Moradin.

Everlund:

- 1354 in the Army of the Vale.
- 187 in the City Watch.

Mithral Hall:

- 560 in the Host of the Hall.
- 21 in the Royal Guard.
- Various others that I didn't bother counting, since they're not directly military (although there are almost four thousand commoners that could be drafted if necessary - most would be dwarves).

Now, these nations are all joined together in the confederation that is the Silver Marches, and each city has more than enough wizards or sorcerers capable of casting teleport spells that they can easily coordinate amongst each other if need be. From the way Sundabar, Citadel Felbarr, Mithral Hall and Citadel Adbar are strong Dwarven holds, and Silverymoon has a mythal to retreat behind, I would suspect that their weathering of the hordes is mostly derived from an ability to retreat and fight from a fortified position. Especially for Mithral Hall, which was extraordinarily hard to besiege if I remember the Hunters Blades and Legacy series correctly.

So outside the cities and their immediate areas, adventuring bands will have a lawless wilderness to contend with. Mind you, even where I haven't given direct numbers, that doesn't mean they're level 1 warriors. By and large, the Silver Marches seems to emphasise quality over quantity.

Also, purely out of interest (and because I don't think I've ever actually looked at the figures before), I pulled up some third edition figures for Waterdeep (population 1,347,840 - this supposedly increases tremendously during the summer months). As follows:

- 100 Griffon riders. Plus griffons.
- 1200 City Guard. Increases to 12000 in times of war.
- 2000-man navy. Increases to 9000 in times of war.
- 1600 City Watchmen.
- 2 Walking Statues (only if the city itself is under attack).
- 20 Gray Hands (a group of very powerful adventurers of 13+ HD each, only called on if there's no other choice).

In addition to this, Waterdeep can call on various guilds and churches, who presumably will render all aid if it's a total war footing and especially if the city is coming under attack. I'm just giving the ones of substantial number, or great importance. Anyway:

- 1000 spellcasters from the Watchful Order of Magists (notably helped during the war against the Phaerimm).
- 50-odd from Blackstaff Tower (including Khelben and Laeral).
- 80 from the Order of the Aster (Lathanderite temple private army).
- 121 Harpers (leader is a 17th level paladin). And, you know, all the other Harpers they can call from elsewhere.
- However many dragons they have who don't want to lose their homes.
- Whatever is in Skullport that wants to help. Or is paid to help.

Beyond this, Waterdeep also has access, through the churches, to some very high-level individuals. Just from four of them (Gond, Lathander, Mystra, Selune), there's a 15th, 16th and 20th level cleric in leadership positions (Mystra's is an 18th level wizard), plus collectively over a thousand clerics in their Waterdeep temple hierarchy that they can call on, and that's before counting any other church presences in the city. It's also home to various retired and current adventuring bands (the Company of Crazed Venturers seem to all be in the 19-21 range, to name one of the high-level ones).

Waterdeep is a ridiculously tough nut to crack in comparison with any of the other cities.


As I said just above, I suspect that it functions with most of the North as wilderness, with "points of light" around the cities. Hordes just roll on through, and as long as they're outside the influence zone in which the cities would actually strike at them, not much happens.

This would also explain partly how Obould was able to establish his kingdom - he's just occupying wilderness in large part, not actually striking into the heart of any of the city-controlled areas.

Waterdeep is a non-starter, IMO. Silverymoon is a possibility though raw force, but the consequences are...profound. You might not draw all the Chosen down on you, but you will get Alustriel and a few others. Thats enough for a headshot. And, lets be honest, battles in faerun are not won by armies. They are run by elite groups that go to slay the leader of whoever is running the opposite horde.

Its actually a lot better to just bypass them, to be honest. Silverymoon is kinda isolationist.

[Trugbild]

If Zarigaar ignores Waterdeep and Silverymoon, keeps his horde concentrated, reinforces them with luskan, trolls, dragons from wyrmwood and his alliances hold.
Then bypasses Cormyr and the big cities in the west imo nothing would stop him from reaching as far south as Tethyr but when he arrives there all the big groups will know of the horde, have a pretty good picture of the actual numbers, composition and by this point the horde will be spread very "thin"(if he leaves appropiate numbers to keep what´s been conquered) which makes it much easier for "the good guys" to retake the conquered lands, bastions etc. without inviting all "the bad guys" to go on rampage as long as their respective homelands are unprotected.

At this point in his war he either needs new allies to really secure what he has conquered or will have a hard time to do so.
He could possibly still push on but that would inevitable lead to the end of his horde unless he can replenish his numbers.

[wayfare]

If Zarigaar ignores Waterdeep and Silverymoon, keeps his horde concentrated, reinforces them with luskan, trolls, dragons from wyrmwood and his alliances hold.
Then bypasses Cormyr and the big cities in the west imo nothing would stop him from reaching as far south as Tethyr but when he arrives there all the big groups will know of the horde, have a pretty good picture of the actual numbers, composition and by this point the horde will be spread very "thin"(if he leaves appropiate numbers to keep what´s been conquered) which makes it much easier for "the good guys" to retake the conquered lands, bastions etc. without inviting all "the bad guys" to go on rampage as long as their respective homelands are unprotected.

At this point in his war he either needs new allies to really secure what he has conquered or will have a hard time to do so.
He could possibly still push on but that would inevitable lead to the end of his horde unless he can replenish his numbers.

I guess, but why would he go that far? Is this guy just out to create as much chaos as possible? Because if he's smart, he knows that he will be found out by then, and he can't really hold anything.

Ok, so he comes down from the Spine, with a massive horde he can take Mirabar and Luskan. I'm assuming he has the mystic backing necessary to take the Hostower, whuch he will really need to outfit his army for the more deadly fights to come.

By this point, everybody in Icewind Dale is either dead or has flat-out been ignored because hey, all they got is fish. But taking Mirabar is making Mithral Hall nervous, and they will grumble at Citadel Adbar. Now, if Mithral Hall is in play, I'm still not certain that they would do much aside from collect power and resources, being as they just got their ancestral home back, and Dwarfs are not the fastest in terms of population growth.

Nobody really cares that the leadership of Luskan is gone, but since its the major port for the extreme north, even holding that city is eventually gonna be hard. However, taking it is a pretty good idea because you get:

1) All the magical equipment you need
2) A navy

The Navy is going to be key, if you want to take and hold ANYTHING on the sword coast. That said, you suddenly have to train your horde to become pirates and that takes time...the best move, as far as i cab see is to conquer these two cities and then chill, train Orctopia, and craft a super monster army.

[Trugbild]

The Navy is going to be key, if you want to take and hold ANYTHING on the sword coast. That said, you suddenly have to train your horde to become pirates and that takes time...the best move, as far as i cab see is to conquer these two cities and then chill, train Orctopia, and craft a super monster army.

If Zarigaar wanted to do that he wouldn´t need a horde of that size.
The question is what is his goal or what are his goals. If he wanted to establish a real "Orc Empire" that would be the way to go.

If Zarigaar just wanted to wreak as much havoc as possible then the "avalanche"-tactic would be imperative to catch as much enemies flatflooted as possible.
Seharvepernfan meant that his goal is just to do as much damage as possible and then ascend to a demigod or something like that.
I think to wreak havoc over 80% of the western continent of fearun in one giant war would suffice for that.

[wayfare]

If Zarigaar wanted to do that he wouldn´t need a horde of that size.
The question is what is his goal or what are his goals. If he wanted to establish a real "Orc Empire" that would be the way to go.

If Zarigaar just wanted to wreak as much havoc as possible then the "avalanche"-tactic would be imperative to catch as much enemies flatflooted as possible.
Seharvepernfan meant that his goal is just to do as much damage as possible and then ascend to a demigod or something like that.
I think to wreak havoc over 80% of the western continent of fearun in one giant war would suffice for that.

If starting chaos is the goal, a plodding army is too slow. This is an epic character, right? he's gotta have a few full casters under his sway. Drop some teleporartion circles, get em permancied, and then send units all over the continent. Give the world to time to plan -- just send a horde outside the walls, have them crush everything, and then teleport on back. Thats maximum chaos.

[Trugbild]

If starting chaos is the goal, a plodding army is too slow. This is an epic character, right? he's gotta have a few full casters under his sway. Drop some teleporartion circles, get em permancied, and then send units all over the continent. Give the world to time to plan -- just send a horde outside the walls, have them crush everything, and then teleport on back. Thats maximum chaos.

I really like the way you think^^.
If he uses that tactic it would be a really scary scenario....the possibilities

[Seharvepernfan]

What is it with people and not reading the other posts? Man! :smalltongue: