Critiques on a new player's monk/sorcerer Gestalt character plan...

[THAD]

Firstly, I'm not an experienced player, but have a "decent" working knowledge of the system and have been attempting on and off to play a game long distance with my brothers over the past year. The setting is 3.5 rules with several options eliminated by the DM (no paladins, clerics, or druids, and only allowing for humans, half-elves, elves, dwarves, halflings for PCs).

Since there're only 2 PCs, the DM's allowing the gestalt build (with some healthy reluctance and a lotta persuasion on my end). Essentially I chose monk/sorcerer in order to play a spellcaster that can maintain separation from enemies, and not be AS worried about a strong gust of wind killing him (starting at level 2). For the campaign, the character's spellcasting comes from WIS instead of CHA, and the DM is allowing most sources to be used with a few other intricacies and exceptions.

Below is what I'm planning out for now (expecting some sort of point buy system, but don't know the numbers yet, so the attributes are placeholders only, standard monk feats assumed except for 1,2,6 which are listed):
Level 2 Human Monk2/Sorcerer2
STR: 10 DEX: 14 CON: 14 INT: 10 WIS: 16 CHA: 12
(ALWAYS ADDING EXTRA POINTS TO WISDOM)
LEVEL: FEAT
1: Intuitive Attack(human); Still Spell (lvl 1 feat); Stunning Fist (monk)
2: Combat Reflexes(monk)
3: Silent Spell (lvl 3)
6: Improved Trip(monk); sculpt spell (lvl6)
9: Practiced spellcaster
12: Heighten Spell
15: extra spell/slot? still unsure
18: extra spell/slot? still unsure
SPELLS (listed by spell level in decreasing priorities to max allowed slots)
0: Prestignation;Touch of Fatigue; Flare; Mage Hand; Message; Ghost Sound; Mending; Read Magic; Detect Magic
1: Chill Touch; Sleep; Magic Missile; Grease; Shocking Grasp
2: Mirror Image; Cloud of Bewilderment; Ghoul Touch; Scorching Ray; Earthen Grasp
3: Slow; Haste; Fireball; Dispel Magic
4: Enervation; Invisibility; Dimension Door (swapped for Bestow Curse @lvl12); Evard's Black Tentacles
5: Cloudkill; Telekinesis; Dominate Person; Baleful Polymorph
6: Ghoul Gauntlet; Probe Thoughts; Disentegrate
7: Mass Hold Person; Finger of Death; Forcecage
8: Mass Dominate Person; Horrid Wilting; Touch of the Graveborn
9: Programmed Amnesia; Meteor Swarm; Dominate Monster

Primary critiques I'm looking for involve attribute spending, feats, and spell selection/order, but any and all input and help is greatly appreciated, thanks in advance!

[Xerxus]

The title's MADness brought me here, I guess it's alright for a monk.

[Stux]

Probably not the most optimal build (just for having monk I mean), but sounds like a lot of fun!

Polymorph etc. for silly flurries maybe? Does that work?

[Gildedragon]

If the stat scores aren't fixed going Wizard for the skill bonus from Int. It grants you extra feats. Not as many slots but you can optimize better.
At 5th go "enlightened fist" or "master of the east wind" on the monk side.
During the levels spell-casting is advanced take levels in swordsage to boost your combat abilities.

Still spell isn't that useful; not wearing armor anyways.

[TuggyNE]

I don't see what Practiced Spellcaster gives you; it can't increase your CL any more, and it has no other function that I recall. You may want Spell Focus: Enchantment, what with your Enchantment-heavy spell selection; maybe GSF as well. Probably (Greater) Spell Penetration too.

Meteor swarm is quite possibly the worst ninth-level spell in existence; I'd advise taking nearly anything else, unless you simply can't live without hurling flaming rocks at your foes all day long. Programmed amnesia and probe thoughts don't seem terribly spammable, which is generally the main criterion for a Sorc. Sleep, dispel magic, and maybe one or two others get rather rapidly outclassed, so you should probably swap them out (and get greater dispel magic/reaving dispel/chain dispel/something else with a high CL cap).

As far as your Monk side goes, it seems like several of your feats (Stunning Fist, Improved Trip) give you ways to duplicate what spells should already be capable of, which is not perhaps ideal, especially since you have to be in melee to use them. Notably, it doesn't give you much in the way of passive boosts or action-economy advantage, just slightly higher AC than a Monk's Belt and slightly more HP/skill points than a pure Sorc. Consider something that gives stronger benefits? Even Fighter might be good :smalltongue:

[THAD]

Tuggy,
It sounds like you have a lot of good input, but I'm not gonna lie, you lost me with "spammable", "high CL cap", and "action-economy advantage".
As for choosing a different combo other than monk/sorc, the DM is hamstringing the gestalt concept to not allowing fighters, rogues, or wizards (thinks that would be too powerful). Same goes for sword sages and enlightened fists.
From a roleplaying perspective, I've definitely 'fallen in love' with the the concept as well (could just be dumb, blind determination to stick to my guns here).
The overarching theme for the magic use I'd say is based on taking what I like from Controller, Necromaster, Strategist (in that order) with an occasional blaster spell to use in a pinch. I'm mainly using the monk class for some additional speed, physical feats, unarmored AC to regain any distance i need to get back to spell casting.
Regarding switching out spells, I made one note about it and then completely forgot I could do that. Plus, with my affinity for poorly chosen spells, clearly I feel like this is one of the bigger areas I need help/guidance with.

[Doorhandle]

"Spammable:" Can be used a lot in rapid succession. basically, seeing as you can't swap your spells out like a wizard, you want to have spells you will use quite often.

"High Cl. cap:" Some spells scale with caster level (C.L), but they have a maximum bonus. For instance shocking grasp taps out at 5 dice of damage, no matter how many caster-levels you have above that. delayed fireball, on the other hand, can get up to 20 dice of damage if you have 20 caster-levels.

"Action-economy advantage:" basically, having more actions a round than the other guy. If you can cast 3 spells and still move, compared to the other guy's two spells while stationary, you have the advantage.

sorcsadin (sorcerer/paladin)is always a good combo: full B.A.B, amazing saves, free transport, and a few cherries on top.

[Gnaeus]

As far as your Monk side goes, it seems like several of your feats (Stunning Fist, Improved Trip) give you ways to duplicate what spells should already be capable of, which is not perhaps ideal, especially since you have to be in melee to use them. Notably, it doesn't give you much in the way of passive boosts or action-economy advantage, just slightly higher AC than a Monk's Belt and slightly more HP/skill points than a pure Sorc. Consider something that gives stronger benefits? Even Fighter might be good :smalltongue:

I don't think monk is bad in this build. It gives 2 good saves. Better AC/hp/Skills (which you mentioned, but it could be a while before a monks belt becomes an option). Unarmed strikes become much more decent when holding a charge from a touch spell. Evasion and other defensive bonuses are nice. Sorc//Paladin is usually considered better because of the charisma synergy, but if DM is willing to let casting key off wisdom Sorc//Monk is fine. Yes, you could still do better with ToB or other higher tier options, but I give this a solid B as a gestalt choice.

[eggynack]

I think that monk should be alright. It's something of a passive side to the sorcerer, so as long as you make sure to largely avoid melee combat despite the class' claim to make you good at it, you should be fine. However, your spell list might have a few issues with it. What you really want on a sorcerer, even more than a wizard, is a collection of spells that are good in a variety of situations. Therefore, while it's ok to have one damage spell, which you may or may not trade out later, magic missile, shocking grasp, chill touch and fireball are probably excessive as low level damage spells. 1st level spell slots are actually pretty valuable, with stuff like silent image and color spray on it. If you plan to actually punch things ever, enlarge person might also be nice to have. Additionally, if you expect to go to high levels you may want to skip sleep. It's great at low levels, but when you get up in levels the slot is practically blank. Preceding a possible longer look at your spell list, a quick look also indicates that you're missing any kind of self-polymorph. You might want to pick one of them up, alter self at low levels, and regular polymorph at mid levels, given that they're useful in just about every situation ever.

[nedz]

Erm, how are you going to be casting those 3rd level spells with 12 Cha ? Ed: missed the line about wisdom.

Spammable means being able to cast the same spell over and over again, which is what Sorcerers do. So you generally want spells you can do that with, especially for the first spell of each new spell level.

Sorc gishes don't have to do this though, they can just take the spells they need. Their problem however is: if they have to cast too many spells before combat then the fight will be over before they have powered up. This is the action economy issue. This does depend upon the game style of the group, but if your combats are over very quickly then the gish will lose out due to never being ready.

[Gnaeus]

[S] This does depend upon the game style of the group, but if your combats are over very quickly then the gish will lose out due to never being ready.

Thus, you want long duration buffs that you can cast before you walk into the enemy building/cave/tomb that will last several fights. So, Mage Armor (lasts hours) and Alter Self (10 minutes per level) are very good at low levels. Greater Magic Weapon is excellent at 3rd (and is a handy buff for many allies as well.

Polymorph only lasts for minutes per level, but by the time you get it it should be good for at least 2 fights if you can cast it before kicking open a door.

[DMVerdandi]

Can you take psion?
Carmindine Monk would make you SAD for INT.

No material components, no Somatic, and no verbal.

For a WIS based monk, Psychic warrior would also work well.

Heck, even a wizard would be better because of carmindine monk.
Because you are not experienced, I will say this. Wizard is MUCH better than sorcerer.

With INT being boosted, you get more skill points, and the knowledge skills come in handy quite a bit.

However, Erudite is best. Even without the Spell to power option

(Erudite is a psion variant that lets you expand your powers known, and take all 8th level disciplines. Spell to Power is an ability that lets you sacrifice 1 bonus feat for the ability to manifest arcane spells as psychic powers.)

By itself, the Erudite can effectively learn every Psion power under level 8, and all general spells up to 9.

[Gildedragon]

I would inquire about possibly using the pathfinder monk; it is a bit stronger and has a broader range of options.

failing that look into monk PrC's
tattooed monk for example.

on the sorcerer side: metamagic specialist; inquire if you can't be an int caster and take kung fu genius.
Domain Access sorcerer: get extend spell, or reroll all your 1's on saving throws or some other domain power (immunity to fear, +10 to speed...) and spells and it fits with the monastic side

[Randomguy]

The overarching theme for the magic use I'd say is based on taking what I like from Controller, Necromaster, Strategist (in that order) with an occasional blaster spell to use in a pinch. I'm mainly using the monk class for some additional speed, physical feats, unarmored AC to regain any distance i need to get back to spell casting.

If this is the case, you probably shouldn't take Intuitive Attack, since you'll be a primarily ranged character, not a melee one. Also, If I remember correctly it's an Exalted feat and you'll be casting evil spells.
Take Spell Focus (enchantment) instead. Also, it would be better to take still spell at a higher level, since you won't be able to use it except on Cantrips until later. Greater Spell Focus (Enchantment) would make a good alternative to take earlier, or maybe Spell Penetration.
Also drop Practiced Spellcaster. It doesn't give you any benefit at all.


If you do plan on going melee at all, it's better to buff up with stuff like Enlarge person rather than going and casting touch spells.

You should probably change all of your 9th level spells. Programmed amnesia is good, but only worth casting very rarely. Meteor swarm just kind of sucks, and I think Dominate Monster comes in too late. I'd suggest getting Dimension Hop (level 2 spell) instead of Earthen Grasp and then Charm Monster instead of Dimension Door. That way your monster controlling needs are still covered, and at a lower level.

[TuggyNE]

Tuggy,
It sounds like you have a lot of good input, but I'm not gonna lie, you lost me with "spammable", "high CL cap", and "action-economy advantage".

Doorhandle &c have already explained this pretty well.


As for choosing a different combo other than monk/sorc, the DM is hamstringing the gestalt concept to not allowing fighters, rogues, or wizards (thinks that would be too powerful). Same goes for sword sages and enlightened fists.

Fighter was mostly just an example; it gives marginally more than the Monk, but not that much. Ironically, Wizard would be scarcely more powerful, since the limiting factor on Sorcerers is not generally spells per day. (Except at low levels, maybe.)

The classic action-economy-boosting class is Factotum, or sometimes Psion or Psychic Warrior. However, I doubt either of the first two will be allowed, and in any case their Int focus is a bit hard to pull here. PsyWar, though, if you can manage it has a few useful tricks, especially psionic bonus feats and Expanded Knowledge-powered action economy (i.e., pick the good powers from any list). Plus, full Wis-based manifesting! Just be careful not to go overboard here, since there's some really cheesy stuff you could get into (mostly involving synchronicity and/or Linked Power).


From a roleplaying perspective, I've definitely 'fallen in love' with the the concept as well (could just be dumb, blind determination to stick to my guns here).
The overarching theme for the magic use I'd say is based on taking what I like from Controller, Necromaster, Strategist (in that order) with an occasional blaster spell to use in a pinch. I'm mainly using the monk class for some additional speed, physical feats, unarmored AC to regain any distance i need to get back to spell casting.

Nothing wrong with the concept, and it's perfectly workable mechanically (although protection from evil/good will hurt at times). But the main thing here is not to use feats for offensive melee purposes; you want them to enhance your main offensive channels, which are basically spells of the listed types, or else to shore up defensive holes (which shouldn't be terribly necessary).

Did I mention metamagic? You might want some, especially if you get Rapid Metamagic and a couple reducers like Practical Metamagic or Easy Metamagic. (Arcane Thesis, if and only if you have one or two really signature spells that you want to pile tons of metamagic on, would work as well.)

[Gwazi Magnum]

This looks like a decent all around build, I highly suggest you get the fly spell at some point though. There are many cases where flying will be of use to you.

Also some questions:

1. Why is Paladin, Cleric and Druid banned for this campaign?
2. Why is sorcerer using wisdom? Was this a house rule?
3. If wisdom is your new spell ability score, why is your Charisma at 12? Those points will be better invested elsewhere.

[THAD]

Overall, this is helping a lot, and I certainly appreciate all of the veterans' aid in pushing me in better directions. The last thing I want to portray is an overly stubborn/ungrateful attitude, so bear with me with more additional reasons why some suggestions won't work.
Much of the 'strange' rulings have come up to, in a way, simplify the game since I'll be playing with my brothers with no set schedule (all of us're split across the country and overseas). Psionics made my eyeballs start to shake in my skull and most of us agreed we just didn't know/understand how to incorporate them into the world with such inexperience from us (mostly me!).



This looks like a decent all around build, I highly suggest you get the fly spell at some point though. There are many cases where flying will be of use to you.

Also some questions:

1. Why is Paladin, Cleric and Druid banned for this campaign?
2. Why is sorcerer using wisdom? Was this a house rule?
3. If wisdom is your new spell ability score, why is your Charisma at 12? Those points will be better invested elsewhere.

1) I think they just didn't have a place in the world the DM created? We haven't started yet, so don't have a great answer for this one. Best guess is a real-life dislike for the concepts? I dunno, I'm just here for the party...pun intended.
2) House rule, explains magic as something that's required to be 'in tune' with instead of based on confidence or logic...i think.
3) Honestly, I'm having a hard time letting go of the CHA attribute. It's my favorite, enjoy the non-combat related interactions. This being said, I have a difficult time not trying to 'win' the game by trying to superstack my whole line of attributes by pushing for a die roll (and just spending 30min with an online app until I got HGH stats), so I'd very much appreciate input on a 'smarter' way to invest. I think i used a 28ish point buy in.

[Spuddles]

Sorcerer//monk is fine.

Some spells that will be totally baller on a monk:
Greater mighty wallop
Mage armor
Shield
Wraithstrike
Corrosive Grasp
Shocking Touch
Chill Touch
Fist of Stone
Girallon's Blessing
Enlarge person

Feats you should take:
Apprentice
Mother cyst
Knockdown (requires imp trip, combat expertise)
multiattack
Improves natural attack: unarmed strike

Putting it all together:
Shield & mage armor gets you +8 armor from the get go, which will be important if you start at low lvls. Monks have abysmal ac without a xmas tree worth of magical gear.

Chill touch, corrosive grasp, and shocking touch all can be used when you make an attack. Chill touch probably scales the best with level.

Fist of stone gives you a big boost to str and a natural slam attack. At level one you can flurry and slam at -2/-2/-7, but with the str bonus it will be +1/+1/-4, plus any other str you start with. Not terrible.

Girallon's blessing gives you another set of arms and 4 claw attacks and rend. You can flurry with all those for -2/-2/-7/-7/-7/-7. Multiattack can reduce the -7 natural attacks to -4.

Enlarge person is good at a little later when the hit to ac isn't such a big deal. Reach is superb.

Combine improved natural attack, greater mighty wallop, and enlarge person, and your 8th level monk has unarmed strike damage equal to a monk 4 size categories bigger. That's 6d8 on your fists, I believe.

Knockdown lets you make a free trip attack every time your attack does more than 9 damage. Which will trigger improved trip for another attack if your attack is successful.

Wraithstrike turns all your attacks for a round into touch attacks. Never miss an attack again.

Mother cyst & apprentice gives you one extra spell known everytime you get access to a new level of spells. Mother cyst gives you a pre-chosen spell known and apprentice lets you repick it.

[TuggyNE]

Sorcerer//monk is fine.

Some spells that will be totally baller on a monk:[… etc …]

Except that the primary idea here seems to be a Sorcerer that happens to be a monk or some such, rather than the other way around. (I.e., a caster who focuses on casting but is tougher and more versatile than most others.) Your advice seems well-suited to the purpose in other respects, though.

[Snowbluff]

When I searched the page, I did not see Ascetic Mage show up. Take the feat. It reduces MAD and gives a nice Arcane Strike effect.

[WhatBigTeeth]

When I searched the page, I did not see Ascetic Mage show up. Take the feat. It reduces MAD and gives a nice Arcane Strike effect.
That's addressed in the OP

For the campaign, the character's spellcasting comes from WIS instead of CHA, and the DM is allowing most sources to be used with a few other intricacies and exceptions.

[Gwazi Magnum]

1) I think they just didn't have a place in the world the DM created? We haven't started yet, so don't have a great answer for this one. Best guess is a real-life dislike for the concepts? I dunno, I'm just here for the party...pun intended.
2) House rule, explains magic as something that's required to be 'in tune' with instead of based on confidence or logic...i think.
3) Honestly, I'm having a hard time letting go of the CHA attribute. It's my favorite, enjoy the non-combat related interactions. This being said, I have a difficult time not trying to 'win' the game by trying to superstack my whole line of attributes by pushing for a die roll (and just spending 30min with an online app until I got HGH stats), so I'd very much appreciate input on a 'smarter' way to invest. I think i used a 28ish point buy in.

1 & 2) That makes sense
3) You can afford to leave it at 10 or 8 if your DM is one of those who determines your likability through your roleplaying. However if you want your player likeable, people easily get along, easy to pick up people in a bar etc and your DM is one of those that heavily follows that Charisma judges that, then leaving it at 12 may be best.

If the former however, reducing it to 8 gives you 4 more points to spend with which you can invest in Intelligence to make 14 for 2 extra skill points per level (or in other words, two more skills to master).

Alternatively you can also lower your Strength to 8 since you won't need strength ever. Not even carry weight really, that's what a bag of holdings is for. Dropping strength gives you an extra 2 points, which you can put in Intelligence to make 12 if you left Charisma alone. If you did also take the 4 points from Charisma though you could either..

1) Invest the 4 in Intelligence, and then spend the other 2 in Dexterity or Constitution making it 15 so it's an odd number for easy increase at level 4.

or

2) Leave Intelligence at 10, and use your total of 6 points from Charisma and Strength to pump up your Wisdom to 18 for maximized spell casting capabilities.

Note, this is more or less min/max advice however, the way your points are currently spent is probably one of the better ways to do it if you're looking for a more balanced and all around kind of character.

Also looking at your array, you look like you've used the 32 point build.