Dervish into Disciple of Dispater?

[Shadroth]

I created this character at level six, so I didn't have to 'grow' him into the Dervish PrC as such. After playing an extended period at this level, I realise that my stats probably aren't quite where I wanted to be.

Because we don't always have all of our party members present on all occasions, we've had several sessions with our party being abducted by a prince of devils and forced into gladiator style challenges. The direction I've been moving in a roleplaying sense led to the possibility of moving into Disciple of Dispater PrC. My only problem is that I don't meet the requirements. I've been offered the posibility of retraining a couple of feats, or possibly a class level.

Stats:
STR 10, DEX 18, CON 12, INT 16, WIS 10, CHA 8

Classes:
Swashbuckler 3, Fighter 2, Dervish 1

Feats:
Dodge, Mobility, Combat Expertise, Weapon Focus (Scimitar) - prerequisites for Dervish.
Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting


As it stands, the only feats I could retrain while keeping Dervish would be the two-weapon feats. However, if I retrain Dervish, I would be able to keep the two-weapon feats, but would mean an end to a scimitar as an off-hand weapon.

I was wondering what suggestions people would give in order to enter Disciple no later than the 8th level. Bonus points for ease of convincing a DM to allow it :)

Cheers guys.

[JadePhoenix]

Make a Faustian pact and get two feats (and +1 to a skill) out of it.

[Fouredged Sword]

Form a pact. I think Dispater would agree to helping you into his service.

[Deaxsa]

Make a Faustian pact and get two feats (and +1 to a skill) out of it.


where are the rules for a faustian pact?

[Venger]

where are the rules for a faustian pact?

fiendish codex 2 page 23

they're generally frowned upon (since they're feats for free) so ask your dm first

[Shadroth]

fiendish codex 2 page 23
Thanks so much for that. I had no idea about this one. It fits the flavour quite nicely for some of the goings-on in the campaign, but I haven't managed to speak to the DM about it yet.

My current build looks something like this:
Swashbuckler 1 - (Weapon Finesse), Combat Expertise, Two-Weapon Fighting
Swashbuckler 2
Swashbuckler 3 - (Insightful Strike), Dodge
Fighter 1 - Mobility
Fighter 2 - Weapon Focus
Dervish 1 - (Dervish Stuff), Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
Disciple of Dispater?

If I don't have the option of making a Faustian Pact to gain the two feats needed to qualify for Disciple of Dispater (Power Attack and Disciple of Darkness), and depending on how far I'm allowed to retrain by dropping Dervish, there's a couple of different build stubs that I could use:

Swashbuckler 1 - (Weapon Finesse), Combat Expertise, Two-Weapon Fighting
Swashbuckler 2
Swashbuckler 3 - (Insightful Strike), Disciple of Darkness
Fighter 1 - Power Attack
Fighter 2 - <Feat>
<+1 BAB class> - Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
Disciple of Dispater 1

I'm not 100% sure what to use the left-over feat for, since it has to be a fighter feat. Also having realised that our party is now bereft of skill-monkeys, I thought about delaying entry to Disciple to mix in some Rogue levels.

Swashbuckler 1 - (Weapon Finesse), Combat Expertise, Two-Weapon Fighting
Swashbuckler 2
Swashbuckler 3 - (Insightful Strike), Disciple of Darkness
Fighter 1 - Power Attack
Fighter 2 - <Feat>
Rogue 1 - (Trapfinding), Sneak Attack +1D6, Craven
Rogue 2 - (Evasion)
Disciple of Dispater 1

Then I thought about Daring Outlaw, which would allow me to get extra Sneak Attack dice from the levels of Swashbuckler that I already have.

Swashbuckler 1 - (Weapon Finesse), Combat Expertise, Two-Weapon Fighting
Swashbuckler 2
Swashbuckler 3 - (Insightful Strike), Disciple of Darkness
Fighter 1 - Power Attack
Fighter 2 - <Feat>
Rogue 1 - (Trapfinding), Sneak Attack +1D6, Craven
Rogue 2 - (Evasion)
Assassin 1 - Sneak Attack +2D6 (qualify for Daring Outlaw)
Disciple of Dispater 1 - Daring Outlaw (Sneak Attack +4D6 total)

By this point my build is starting to get very convoluted, and I've most likely made things more complicated than they need to be. I can't tell at this point, because I've been spending far too much time staring at everything and shuffling things around.

Anyway, just hoping for some more (excellent) feedback from you guys :D

[Xervous]

Perhaps you could build towards the lightning mace feat. (requires TWF, combat reflexes and weapon focus: mace)

Combo it with keen aptitude kukris (aptitude from ToB) and go explode things.

Mix in blood in the water if you want even more crit craziness.

[Venger]

Perhaps you could build towards the lightning mace feat. (requires TWF, combat reflexes and weapon focus: mace)

Combo it with keen aptitude kukris (aptitude from ToB) and go explode things.

Mix in blood in the water if you want even more crit craziness.

lightning mace is jelly to lightning mace's peanut butter. +1 to this suggestion

blood in the water is super for critfishers. however, his build seems somewhat starved for feats as-is, making the feat for martial study (some tiger claw maneuver) and then another for martial stance with 3 lvls between them seem too steep for blood in the water's somewhat minimal return in comparison.

if he were to dip warblade, this would, of course, be a different story. a 2 level dip at level 7 is my favorite place for one (xx6/warblade 2) since you can grab some thirds, which often only have one or no prereqs, and even a fourth or two, in addition to a stance (which can be blood in the water)


Thanks so much for that. I had no idea about this one. It fits the flavour quite nicely for some of the goings-on in the campaign, but I haven't managed to speak to the DM about it yet.

My current build looks something like this:
Swashbuckler 1 - (Weapon Finesse), Combat Expertise, Two-Weapon Fighting
Swashbuckler 2
Swashbuckler 3 - (Insightful Strike), Dodge
Fighter 1 - Mobility
Fighter 2 - Weapon Focus
Dervish 1 - (Dervish Stuff), Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
Disciple of Dispater?

If I don't have the option of making a Faustian Pact to gain the two feats needed to qualify for Disciple of Dispater (Power Attack and Disciple of Darkness), and depending on how far I'm allowed to retrain by dropping Dervish, there's a couple of different build stubs that I could use:

Swashbuckler 1 - (Weapon Finesse), Combat Expertise, Two-Weapon Fighting
Swashbuckler 2
Swashbuckler 3 - (Insightful Strike), Disciple of Darkness
Fighter 1 - Power Attack
Fighter 2 - <Feat>
<+1 BAB class> - Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
Disciple of Dispater 1

I'm not 100% sure what to use the left-over feat for, since it has to be a fighter feat. Also having realised that our party is now bereft of skill-monkeys, I thought about delaying entry to Disciple to mix in some Rogue levels.

Swashbuckler 1 - (Weapon Finesse), Combat Expertise, Two-Weapon Fighting
Swashbuckler 2
Swashbuckler 3 - (Insightful Strike), Disciple of Darkness
Fighter 1 - Power Attack
Fighter 2 - <Feat>
Rogue 1 - (Trapfinding), Sneak Attack +1D6, Craven
Rogue 2 - (Evasion)
Disciple of Dispater 1

Then I thought about Daring Outlaw, which would allow me to get extra Sneak Attack dice from the levels of Swashbuckler that I already have.

Swashbuckler 1 - (Weapon Finesse), Combat Expertise, Two-Weapon Fighting
Swashbuckler 2
Swashbuckler 3 - (Insightful Strike), Disciple of Darkness
Fighter 1 - Power Attack
Fighter 2 - <Feat>
Rogue 1 - (Trapfinding), Sneak Attack +1D6, Craven
Rogue 2 - (Evasion)
Assassin 1 - Sneak Attack +2D6 (qualify for Daring Outlaw)
Disciple of Dispater 1 - Daring Outlaw (Sneak Attack +4D6 total)

By this point my build is starting to get very convoluted, and I've most likely made things more complicated than they need to be. I can't tell at this point, because I've been spending far too much time staring at everything and shuffling things around.

Anyway, just hoping for some more (excellent) feedback from you guys :D

you're quite welcome.

several things here, so I'll go in order. nothing's convoluted, don't worry. this is what we do here.

firstly: what exactly is it that dervish offers you in favor of more disciple of dispater?

secondly: you can take either combat reflexes or weapon focus as your fighter feat in order to qualify for aptitude mace with aptitude weapon (protip: if you end up dipping dervish, use scimitars instead of kukris, dealing 1d6 with a range of 18-20 instead of 1d4 with 19-20 is pretty much all dervish has to offer you) stormwrack's cutlasses are also light slashing weapons that deal 1d6 and crit on 19-20, a better choice than kukris numberswise.

thirdly: do not take daring outlaw. it only allows your swashbuckler and rogue levels to stack with one another for the purposes of determining SA dice, it doesn't stack with other classes that grant or advance SA. this likely means that you'll want to excise the rogue and assassin from your build. they don't really offer you anything and serve to really tank your BA.

if you're dead-set on sneak attack, complete warrior's ronin offers it along with full ba if you don't mind using your fighter feat on ewp (bastard sword) it also gives you the nifty banzai charge ability, allowing you to take a penalty up to your BA to your AC and add it onto your damage while charging. sort of a mini shock trooper (and stocks with shock trooper if one has it)

rogue and assassin aren't needed. swashbuckler seems to be here to make qualifying for dervish easier. again, what does it actually give you?

DoD is worth staying into until 8th level for iron power, which will triple your threat range (and give a +2 insight bonus, a very rare type) onto atk/damage. don't forget to pick up improved critical at some point (since it stacks) and not to waste your money on keening your weapons (since it doesn't)

[dascarletm]

If you can get roundabout kick (need 15str, PA, and Imp Unarmed Strike) with your aptitude kukris and lightning mace.... infinite attacks anyone?

[Shadroth]

The Dervish class is what I was deliberately building towards when I rolled up my character. However, the stats I rolled weren't the best, and Swashbuckler gives both increased chance to hit (Weapon Finesse) and increased damage (Insightful Strike) for an array with neutral strength. And I make too many builds that start with Ranger, so it adds a little variety.

Daring outlaw was to try and milk more value out of the three levels of Swashbuckler. SwB3/Rog2 would give +3d6 sneak attack, except it needs 2d6 to even take the feat. I was investigating Sneak Attack as an option to try to squeeze in some more damage potential. But if I ignore it completely, I almost have Lightning Maces by level 9.

The main thing Dervish gives me at this point is off-hand scimitars. I've recently discovered Oversized TWF, which would just about replace Dervish by itself if I met the requisite Str. Which, I've only just remembered, is also required for Power Attack in the first place :(

Disciple looks like a lot of fun, but if there's something else you would recommend building into from Dervish instead, I'm all ears.

[Gazzien]

If you can get roundabout kick (need 15str, PA, and Imp Unarmed Strike) with your aptitude kukris and lightning mace.... infinite attacks anyone?

The one I like is Aptitude Splitting Hand Crossbows... ahahahaha, you need that Quiver that gives you infinite ammo (hopefully the +5 Adamantine version), though.

[Xervous]

then add high sword low axe and its associated feats, if possible :3

hit twice = trip attempt
trip = free attack

[Venger]

If you can get roundabout kick (need 15str, PA, and Imp Unarmed Strike) with your aptitude kukris and lightning mace.... infinite attacks anyone? roundabout kick requires IUS (ouch!) and only works on your unarmed attacks. it wouldn't work if you made a crit with a weapon.


The Dervish class is what I was deliberately building towards when I rolled up my character. However, the stats I rolled weren't the best, and Swashbuckler gives both increased chance to hit (Weapon Finesse) and increased damage (Insightful Strike) for an array with neutral strength. And I make too many builds that start with Ranger, so it adds a little variety.

Daring outlaw was to try and milk more value out of the three levels of Swashbuckler. SwB3/Rog2 would give +3d6 sneak attack, except it needs 2d6 to even take the feat. I was investigating Sneak Attack as an option to try to squeeze in some more damage potential. But if I ignore it completely, I almost have Lightning Maces by level 9.

The main thing Dervish gives me at this point is off-hand scimitars. I've recently discovered Oversized TWF, which would just about replace Dervish by itself if I met the requisite Str. Which, I've only just remembered, is also required for Power Attack in the first place :(

Disciple looks like a lot of fun, but if there's something else you would recommend building into from Dervish instead, I'm all ears.

how much is swashbuckler really helping you? your dex is indeed higher than your str, so weapon finesse makes sense, and your int adds a little damage onto your strikes.

however, as with all melee characters, you suffer somewhat from MAD. what ability will you focus on as you level up?

another thing you'll need to find a way to deal with sooner or later is dr. this is a problem for death of a thousand cuts characters like this, or archers. how will you deal with an enemy who has, say, dr 15 if you're only dealing 1d4+3 per hit? while having a little sneak attack may seem like a solution, it will not reliably fix the problem since you have no real way of applying it very often (no stealth, invisibility, hips, etc)

oversized twf is completely worthless. you'll just be using a pair of kukris anyway, which are light, so there's no reason to burn one of your precious feats to use scimitars instead if you ditch dervish (which is what it seems like you should do at this point) for what amounts to 1 more point of damage on average.

twfers don't gain much from power attack, you're not really missing anything there



then add high sword low axe and its associated feats, if possible :3

hit twice = trip attempt
trip = free attack

high sword low axe requires even more feats than dervish (which, at 4 feats, is the most I've seen any nonepic prc require) he'd need imp trip (thus combat expertise), twf (which he has already so that's fine) and two weapon foci.

even if he used an aptitude weapon in both hands so he only needed to take weapon focus once, the weapon restrictions severely dampen his critfishing. while it would indeed offer an extra attack once in a while with the trip, it wouldn't really be enough to make up for the attacks he would lose through not being able to trigger lightning mace as often with a better crit range.


what specifically do you want your character do be able to do? I feel as though problems are stemming from us having a lack of focus. what do you want to build towards at the end ?

[dascarletm]

roundabout kick requires IUS (ouch!) and only works on your unarmed attacks. it wouldn't work if you made a crit with a weapon.




Hence aptitude weapon.