[PF] Rapid Shot and Manyshot

[Suikadon]

Last time I was playing with some friends, these two feats caused some debate.

Rapid shot says: "When making a full-attack action with a ranged weapon, you can fire one additional time..."

Manyshot says: "When making a full attack action with a bow, your first attack fires two arrows..."

Let's say someone has both feats and 2 attacks per round. Does that mean that someone could fire two arrows with the first attack, then make 2 more attacks?

Also, if a feat says "when making a full-attack action", does that mean it can't be combined with other feats that also require a full-attack action?

[Slipperychicken]

They absolutely do stack. This is intended, because archers' vulnerability and lower damage per shot is compensated with more attacks per round. To illustrate, let's say we have an archer with a +11 attack bonus, one iterative attack from BAB, and the feats Manyshot and Rapid Shot.

Full Attack (neither Manyshot nor Rapid Shot): +11/+6. Both are normal attacks.

Full Attack w/ Manyshot: +11/+6. The first attack (at +11) fires two arrows with the same roll.

w/ Manyshot and Rapid Shot: +9/+9/+4, and the first attack (at +9) fires two arrows.

[Talderas]

They absolutely do stack. This is intended, because archers' vulnerability and lower damage per shot is compensated with more attacks per round. To illustrate, let's say we have an archer with a +11 attack bonus, one iterative attack from BAB, and the feats Manyshot and Rapid Shot.

Unfortunately this change, compared to 3.5, is a backwards step for archers. It may sound good on paper because you get +2 attacks when utilizing both options but downgrading manyshot from a standard action to an addon to the full-attack action only serves to hurt an archer. Now he gets an extra attack above any beyond rapid shot when using a full attack action but any time he has to move he's limited to one attack.

In all it's a net sum decrease to an archer's efficacy. It's only a net boon if an archer can reasonably not move or make nothing but 5ft steps.

[Suikadon]

They absolutely do stack. This is intended, because archers' vulnerability and lower damage per shot is compensated with more attacks per round. To illustrate, let's say we have an archer with a +11 attack bonus, one iterative attack from BAB, and the feats Manyshot and Rapid Shot.

Full Attack (neither Manyshot nor Rapid Shot): +11/+6. Both are normal attacks.

Full Attack w/ Manyshot: +11/+6. The first attack (at +11) fires two arrows with the same roll.

w/ Manyshot and Rapid Shot: +9/+9/+4, and the first attack (at +9) fires two arrows.

Thanks, that clarifies things.

[Xerxus]

Unfortunately this change, compared to 3.5, is a backwards step for archers. It may sound good on paper because you get +2 attacks when utilizing both options but downgrading manyshot from a standard action to an addon to the full-attack action only serves to hurt an archer. Now he gets an extra attack above any beyond rapid shot when using a full attack action but any time he has to move he's limited to one attack.

In all it's a net sum decrease to an archer's efficacy. It's only a net boon if an archer can reasonably not move or make nothing but 5ft steps.

Archery usually entails very little movement, worst case you get yourself a quick runners shirt. I call it an upgrade.

[Raimun]

Unfortunately this change, compared to 3.5, is a backwards step for archers. It may sound good on paper because you get +2 attacks when utilizing both options but downgrading manyshot from a standard action to an addon to the full-attack action only serves to hurt an archer. Now he gets an extra attack above any beyond rapid shot when using a full attack action but any time he has to move he's limited to one attack.

In all it's a net sum decrease to an archer's efficacy. It's only a net boon if an archer can reasonably not move or make nothing but 5ft steps.

But archers don't have to move in to a position to full attack. They have the range of the bow for that. They only need to move away from enemies or around the corners.

Besides, melee types get only one attack too if they move. Yes, their one hit can hit harder but they don't have the range. Looks balanced to me.

Edit: Yes, Cleave is a standard action but c'mon? Who would really take that in PF?

[Slipperychicken]

Unfortunately this change, compared to 3.5, is a backwards step for archers. It may sound good on paper because you get +2 attacks when utilizing both options but downgrading manyshot from a standard action to an addon to the full-attack action only serves to hurt an archer. Now he gets an extra attack above any beyond rapid shot when using a full attack action but any time he has to move he's limited to one attack.

In all it's a net sum decrease to an archer's efficacy. It's only a net boon if an archer can reasonably not move or make nothing but 5ft steps.

Movement is solved by riding a mount. If that's not fast enough for you, get it Horseshoes of Speed and become the ultimate skirmisher.

You can make a ranged full attack without penalty when your mount moves its speed or less. You don't even need a feat, just a mount (if it's only 75gp, who cares if it dies. If you're a Ranger or took Eldritch Heritage/Boon Companion for an AC, it's all gravy) and the ability to ride it competently (shouldn't be too hard with your Dex). A mount can even fit into medium spaces, which halves its movement, but even that leaves you better off than 5-footing every turn.

The movement makes it tempting to use a Small character for an archer, riding a Medium mount like a pony, roc, or giant wasp. By not being a human, you lose the bonus feat, but gain +1 tohit and AC from size, along with greater mounted movement in dungeons.

[Keneth]

In all it's a net sum decrease to an archer's efficacy. It's only a net boon if an archer can reasonably not move or make nothing but 5ft steps.

Not having to move is kind of the reason why one would play a ranged character in the first place. If you constantly have to reposition yourself, then you're doing something wrong, or your DM is being a Richard.