Build Compression - Whip & Dart

[Talderas]

Let me get a few things out of the way.

I know. The whip is a laughably bad weapon.
I know. I should probably use a spike chain instead.

There's plenty of things that I know. There's also plenty that I don't and that usually pertains to tricks.

I have a concept that I am trying to create and that is a whip user that uses poisoned darts.

There's a couple of goals I'm trying to reach at this point.
Has Use Magic Device Skill
Uses a whip to trip/disarm
Uses poisoned darts as the primary form of damage (probably strength damage poisons)

A few things to note. Our DM is granting us a character feat every other level rather than every three levels. This is a desert oriented setting so Sand Snare is highly desirable. I'm using the Martial Rogue variant for feats instead of SA. I'm attempting to convince him to relax the requirement for the followup attack on a successful trip from improved trip to allow ranged attacks as well if they do not provoke an AoO.

The following feats I consider necessary to the build. Improved Trip (and Combat Expertise), Two Weapon Fighting, Quick Draw, Weapon Finesse, and Master of Poisons.

Here's the feat build.
Rogue 1 - Two Weapon Fighting, Combat Expertise, Able Learner
Swashbuckler 1 - Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Whip)
Fighter 1 - Improved Trip
Rogue 2 - Master of Poisons, Quick Draw,
Rogue 3 -
Rogue 4 - Sand Snare, Improved Disarm

So I'm looking for ways to condense the core feats down to three levels or fewer or other substitutions that provide a similar functionable benefit while expanding options. I know the build is weak so I'm looking to compress it as much as possible to increase situtational flexibility or to increase the number of viable combat options (hence disarm as an option in addition to trip).

Thanks!

[Darrin]

Sources available? ToB/Dragon Magazine allowed?



Uses a whip to trip/disarm


Will your DM allow you to use a whip-dagger with the 3.5 whip rules?



Uses poisoned darts as the primary form of damage (probably strength damage poisons)


Psionic minor creation gives you a nice little smorgasbord of vegetable-based poisons at your fingertips, but I'm not really sure there's room for Hidden Talent. Chaos Flasks (100 GP, Planar Handbook) can make the really expensive poisons very cheap, but you might want to check with your DM before you pull that trick.



Rogue 1 - Two Weapon Fighting, Combat Expertise, Able Learner


What exactly do you need Able Learner for? At best, this saves you, what, maybe 3-4 skill points? I'd consider moving Master of Poisons or Quickdraw up to here.

TWF is functionally equivalent to Rapid Shot here (nowhere do the TWF rules state that your offhand attack has to be melee), but are you going to be taking any ranged feats later?



Swashbuckler 1 - Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Whip)
Fighter 1 - Improved Trip
Rogue 2 - Master of Poisons, Quick Draw,


If you have access to Dragon Magazine #310, then Exoticist Fighter could help get rid of EWP. There's a couple different ways to get Poison Use, but there's no way to replicate the swift action to apply, that's just too darned useful to give up.

Passive Way Monk 2 might help... this gets you Combat Expertise and Improved Trip (and gives you the option to dump Int as well), and also gets you proficiency with shurikens. This makes Quick Draw somewhat unnecessary... you can draw shuriken as a free action, and use those for poison delivery rather than darts.



Rogue 4 - Sand Snare, Improved Disarm


I would consider getting rid of Improved Disarm. First of all, very few creatures are going to have anything to disarm. Second, if you're disarming with a whip, there's a good chance your target is at range, so it's not like Improved Disarm would get rid of an AoO that never happens. The +4 bonus on disarms is nice, but it's unlikely you'll ever get much use for it. (Wow. Disarming-related enchantments are pathetic and expensive... +2 bonus on disarms is a +2 enhancement? WTF?)

If you do keep Improved Disarm, consider picking up Snatch Weapon from Song & Silence.



So I'm looking for ways to condense the core feats down to three levels or fewer or other substitutions that provide a similar functionable benefit while expanding options.

You've packed so many feats into the first three levels, I'm not sure there's any way to condense this further.

Wolf Totem/Simple Barbarian 2 could get you Improved Trip and TWF/Rapid Shot, but that's not any more efficient than what you already have.

[Talderas]

Sources available? ToB/Dragon Magazine allowed?

Normally Dragon Magazines (outside of Dragon Compendium) are prohibited, but given the inherent weakness of the build I'm sure I can convince the DM that DragMag is okay especially when doing so allows me to increase the breadth of the character. We're also heavily restricted when it comes to spells and psionics so those options aren't worth considering.


Will your DM allow you to use a whip-dagger with the 3.5 whip rules?

I believe so, but that more or less just lets the whip deal lethal damage from my understanding. I'm looking mostly at the build right now rather than specific gear so when I say "whip" I mean any whip-like weapon. Scorpion Tail Whip, Whip Dagger, plain old bullwhip, etc.


Psionic minor creation gives you a nice little smorgasbord of vegetable-based poisons at your fingertips, but I'm not really sure there's room for Hidden Talent. Chaos Flasks (100 GP, Planar Handbook) can make the really expensive poisons very cheap, but you might want to check with your DM before you pull that trick.

Psionics are a no go but the flasks might be viable. I'll have to look at them.


What exactly do you need Able Learner for? At best, this saves you, what, maybe 3-4 skill points? I'd consider moving Master of Poisons or Quickdraw up to here.

Able Learner is definitely a placeholder for the moment. Unfortunately, I have the skill monkey class and unfortunately what I've heard so far from other players doesn't provide a lot of breadth to the array of skills. There's just enough non-class skills for the rogue that I might end up needing to justify its use.


TWF is functionally equivalent to Rapid Shot here (nowhere do the TWF rules state that your offhand attack has to be melee), but are you going to be taking any ranged feats later?

I honestly don't know what I intend down the line.


If you have access to Dragon Magazine #310, then Exoticist Fighter could help get rid of EWP.

I'm guessing that this is a type of fighter that gets an exotic weapon proficiency in addition to the bonus feat? Otherwise it's not really providing any advantage.


Passive Way Monk 2 might help... this gets you Combat Expertise and Improved Trip (and gives you the option to dump Int as well), and also gets you proficiency with shurikens. This makes Quick Draw somewhat unnecessary... you can draw shuriken as a free action, and use those for poison delivery rather than darts.

What's the source for this?


I would consider getting rid of Improved Disarm. First of all, very few creatures are going to have anything to disarm. Second, if you're disarming with a whip, there's a good chance your target is at range, so it's not like Improved Disarm would get rid of an AoO that never happens. The +4 bonus on disarms is nice, but it's unlikely you'll ever get much use for it. (Wow. Disarming-related enchantments are pathetic and expensive... +2 bonus on disarms is a +2 enhancement? WTF?)

If you do keep Improved Disarm, consider picking up Snatch Weapon from Song & Silence.

Our group tends to have a habit of advancing creatures rather than using CR appropriate creatures. This often times means we do face a number of humanoid creatures that wield weapons. My thought was that since I cannot make a ranged attack as a followup to tripping, I can disarm the foe with that follow up attack.




You've packed so many feats into the first three levels, I'm not sure there's any way to condense this further.

Wolf Totem/Simple Barbarian 2 could get you Improved Trip and TWF/Rapid Shot, but that's not any more efficient than what you already have.

[eggynack]

I believe so, but that more or less just lets the whip deal lethal damage from my understanding. I'm looking mostly at the build right now rather than specific gear so when I say "whip" I mean any whip-like weapon. Scorpion Tail Whip, Whip Dagger, plain old bullwhip, etc.

I think the idea here is that if you give whips lethal damage, then they threaten an area. This means that you actually get attacks of opportunity, and can therefore trip people in a large area off turn. If you can get attacks of opportunity, then it's worth considering to get combat reflexes. Basically, if you can use attacks of opportunity, then the whip part of the build is perfectly fine in terms of optimization. You're really not that far away from a spiked chain, and gain a good ranged advantage which you can take advantage of with AoO's. The dart aspect of the build is pretty suboptimal though. I'd advise getting as far into the whip part of the build as possible, while tending away from the dart part as a thing to pour energy into. I'd also advise against too many rogue levels. One is fine, if you're dipping for able learner UMD, however your build is quite feat intensive. Two weapon fighting seems particularly unnecessary.

A good possible replacement for the later rogue levels are two levels of barbarian. Those levels gain you access to improved trip through the wolf totem ACF, and you don't have to take combat expertise for it. That frees up a lot of room. If you want, you can also do whirling frenzy and pounce while you're there. Just wolf totem is enough to free up some feat room though. For your 4th rogue level, perhaps a level of fighter would work. You have one so far, and the second is equally viable. I just don't see what rogue is doing for that build, past UMD. You should consider taking factotum, if you want crazy skill access.

[Darrin]

I believe so, but that more or less just lets the whip deal lethal damage from my understanding.


The biggest difference between 3.0 and 3.5 whips is in 3.0, the whip is a ranged weapon with a 15' range, so it uses Dex for attacks, provokes AoOs, doesn't threaten, no Power Attack, and so on. In 3.5, the whip is a melee weapon with a 15' reach that doesn't threaten. This lets you use Str for attacks/damage, no provoking AoOs, Power Attack ok, and so forth.

If the DM ixnays throwing a dart for your free attack from Improved Trip, then being able to make a normal melee attack with a whip dagger would be good.



Able Learner is definitely a placeholder for the moment. Unfortunately, I have the skill monkey class and unfortunately what I've heard so far from other players doesn't provide a lot of breadth to the array of skills.


Your ability to cover the inadequacies of the other players who insist on building ineffective characters only goes so far. "Cool concept" vs. "Compensate For Party's Weaknesses"... kind of a tough call, depends on the group.



I'm guessing that this is a type of fighter that gets an exotic weapon proficiency in addition to the bonus feat? Otherwise it's not really providing any advantage.


Yes, trades away Martial Weapon Proficiencies for four EWPs.



What's the source for this?


Variant Monk Fighting Styles are in Unearthed Arcana. They're also in the SRD.



My thought was that since I cannot make a ranged attack as a followup to tripping, I can disarm the foe with that follow up attack.

Hmm. Snatch Weapon looks more appealing, then. Trip -> Disarm -> free attack with opponent's weapon.


I think the idea here is that if you give whips lethal damage, then they threaten an area.


No. Under the 3.0 rules, whip-daggers don't threaten because it's a ranged weapon. Under the 3.5 rules, whip-daggers would count as whips, which are melee weapons with a 15' range but they do not threaten. Doing lethal damage doesn't have anything to do with threatening, and more with wrangling a 15' piece of woven leather that can't be swung around quickly enough to respond to an opponent leaving himself open to a quick melee attack.



A good possible replacement for the later rogue levels are two levels of barbarian. Those levels gain you access to improved trip through the wolf totem ACF, and you don't have to take combat expertise for it.


Combat Expertise is also a prereq for Improved Disarm, although I'm not sure getting Improved Disarm would be worth it. (I prefer disarming the "old fashioned" way: kill opponent, take weapon from cold dead fingers.)



I just don't see what rogue is doing for that build, past UMD. You should consider taking factotum, if you want crazy skill access.

My issue with Rogue 3/Rogue 4 is it only offers one bonus feat over those two levels. Passive Way Monk 2 provides two bonus feats, as does Wolf Totem/Simple Barbarian (and you may be able to squeeze Blind-Fight in there by adding Dragon Totem).

Once you're happy with bonus feats, then it might be worth it to switch to Factotum, and whatever you couldn't cover with skills, you can cover with SLAs.

[KillingAScarab]

Another reason why you want the whip-dagger? It can actually do damage, period. Normal whips deal no damage to anything with an armor bonus of +1 (padded or better, so anything more than clothes) or a natural armor bonus of +3 or more. By my reading, even if you take the -4 penalty to hit and deal lethal damage, you still may not damage anything but unarmored people and very weak animals. Even horses have +3 natural armor.

Here's a trick (http://www.cayzle.com/screeds/book020.html) I read about some time ago. Consider trying to get a whip-dagger with the spell storing (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#spellStoring) magic weapon ability. Team up with the party casters to get some extra damage or some other effect on your first hit with it in a combat. Alternatively, use a regular whip of spell storing and take advantage of your inability to deal damage to anything wearing armor to heal your party members with a stored cure spell. You might carry multiple spell storing weapons just, um, make sure you know which whip has which spell stored in it. Especially if you're trying both the "hurt the enemy" and "heal the party" strategies.


I'm guessing that this is a type of fighter that gets an exotic weapon proficiency in addition to the bonus feat? Otherwise it's not really providing any advantage.You forgo proficiency with all martial weapons, but gain proficiency with four exotic weapons of your choice. You get bonus feats as you normally would, but there is a specific bonus feats list included with the variant. Like a number of the variant fighters in that article you get to be a fighter which actually has some class features, if you choose them in place of a bonus feat. There are only three special abilities, which only apply when wielding an exotic weapon with which you are proficient. The one you want, if any of them, is exotic attack.


The exoticist not only learns to wield strange weapons, but to wield them strangely, and this unusual technique is more difficult to counter. The exoticist gains a +2 bonus to opposed trip attempts she initiates using her exotic weapon and opposed disarm rolls.

Strange strike might also be good at low levels, since it will stack with weapon focus: whip.


The exoticist learns to fully exploit her knowledge of exotic fighting styles. She gains a +1 competence bonus to all attack rolls if her opponent is not proficient with the weapon the exoticist wields.

Dazzling display gives a +4 bonus on bluff checks to feint, but the skills for the variant do not include bluff on the list. Ask the DM to fix this oversight if you have any interest in that.

My favorite variants from that article are the Targetteer for a decent archery build and the Pugilist, for its ridiculously broken ability to only take non-lethal damage, which can then be reduced by CON, all by 2nd level. I was too busy giggling at the Pugilist to notice most of this was just posted.