Questioning my sanity...

[Deox]

In an upcoming game, I finally have a DM who is allowing me to play a Truenamer. I have the DM's blessing, as there will be some leniency and allowance to make the class not (as) terrible...

...oh, and I'm going all 20 levels in it too...

Besides Zaq's excellent guide, any additional tips/tricks/suggestions/stories that anyone has?

Also, I've been debating whether or not to document the exploits of this character in a campaign journal, purely for my own amusement (and to have concrete evidence of my own insanity).

[Hyena]

Reading just a title, I guessed this was a "Call of Cthulchu" campaign journal.
Well, why not? It surely will be fascinating - no one ever plays truenamer, and we shall see why on practice.

[Deox]

I could see how the title could bring someone to that conclusion.

I've always wanted to play one, but most think the notion a joke.

[Silverbit]

Good luck! I've thought about playing one myself. I'm going to commit heresy here, and say that I don't think they're that bad. Maybe T5 or T4 at most, and on the low ends of both, but I'd rather play one than a fighter. You've got to have a truly massive Int, and take skill focus and other skill feats, but I think I could play one vanilla and not be too bad. Anyway, I'm rambling. I'd certainly be interested in a campaign log if you make one.

(P.S: I've just had an idea; would anyone think it too broken if Truenamers rolled 5d6 for their Truenaming skill, instead of 1d20? Just an idea.)

[eggynack]

I don't think truenamers ever hit tier 5. I tend to think that they just kinda sublimate from tier 6 up to tier 4 when you get their skill checks high enough. At low op, they do nothing, and at high op, they're basically warlocks. That's my impression of them anyways.

edit: The 5d6 thing wouldn't be broken. However the class would also not be broken if they could just use all of their abilities at will. They just don't have powerful enough abilities to ever be really powerful. You could probably get rid of the law of sequence too without having any real problems. The only issue with making their power at will would be that it would necessitate changing the way meta-utterances work. Losing quicken might actually make this slightly fixed truenamer less powerful at high-op levels.

[Deox]

For me, it's one of the "ultimate fluff" class choices.

I believe it was from one of the Neverwinter Nights games that introduced a Truenamer (or some variation) and I thought the concept was amazing.

One boon the DM is granting is a bonus equal to my Truenamer level on all Truesnaming checks, scaling all the way to 20. I feel this will help alleviate any need for an item familiar (and the potential headaches that come along with one).

[Deox]

However the class would also not be broken if they could just use all of their abilities at will.
This is one item that the DM and I are still discussing; it does not seem an unreasonable request.


You could probably get rid of the law of sequence too without having any real problems.

As much as I read the LoS over and over, I actually like the concept.

[Grod_The_Giant]

One boon the DM is granting is a bonus equal to my Truenamer level on all Truesnaming checks, scaling all the way to 20. I feel this will help alleviate any need for an item familiar (and the potential headaches that come along with one).
That actually... might be enough to make the class playable*. I mean, sure, go for all the usual boosts, but the biggest issue is that their skill check naturally grows by 1 rank/level, while the DCs grow twice as fast, being based on 2*CR. Now you can keep level without having to scramble madly for every +1 you can get your hands on.

You might also see if you can get the Law of Sequence to apply only to utterances used against the same target (so you couldn't use two Word of Nurturings on the bard at the same time, but you could use one on the bard and one on the fighter). That's how Kyeudo's fix worked, and that was reasonably playable.

*In terms of getting your abilities off, at least.

EDIT:
This is one item that the DM and I are still discussing; it does not seem an unreasonable request.
The only real issue of concern there is infinite out-of-battle healing. But making the Law of Resistance reset faster might work.

[Deox]

Infinite out of combat healing isn't that much of a concern, I'd say. Black sand and other things are a little more over the top, IMO.

As far as multiple utterances affecting the same target, I feel the RAI is pretty clear, but the RAW on pages 233-234 (Headings: Effective Spell Level and Law of Sequence respectively) seem to indicate differently. Not sure which way to lean on that post yet.

[XmonkTad]

Well, if you're trying to play to your strengths, you do get freedom of movement at level one. Close range disarm shienanigans could be fun. You can cast in areas of silence, so a whisper gnome could make an excellent scout. Tactically, you can't play control like a real arcane caster, but UMD is a class skill.
What is the party compositon? Is this starting at level one and going to 20?
I can't wait for the journal.

[Zaq]

You've got all my general advice in my guide, of course, but if you have any specific questions, fire away.

[Deox]

I appreciate the interest and assistance; maybe I'll retain the taste of ice cream.

I'm going to play on the safe side and not capitalize on the poor wording between LoS and Effective Spell level.

First question off the top of my head: The interaction between DM and Player concerning CRs (15 +(2x Creature's CR), IIRC). How should the be handled at the table to avoid spoiling things for the other players? I've a few brewing, though still brainstorming. I'd like to keep it quick and painless for the DM while still keeping things a mystery to the others.

I do like the Knowledge Devotion route; thinking on how to best utilize, however.

The DM was also mentioning an item of sorts that would, as a free action on my turn, grant me a use of Guidance of the Avatar. His reasoning was this would allow use of utterances to affect multiple targets more reliably.

I'm still entertaining the idea of a journal. The DM in question was almost demanding it.

[Deox]

Now you can keep level without having to scramble madly for every +1 you can get your hands on.
That was the idea, and it'll allow better allocation of abilities, feats...


You might also see if you can get the Law of Sequence to apply only to utterances used against the same target (so you couldn't use two Word of Nurturings on the bard at the same time, but you could use one on the bard and one on the fighter).

Good middle ground. I'll propose this idea to the DM.



What is the party compositon? Is this starting at level one and going to 20?
I can't wait for the journal.

Campaign starting roughly level 6 with plans to go beyond 20. I've also the following array for stats, which will be delightful:
18,18,16,14,12,10.


You've got all my general advice in my guide, of course, but if you have any specific questions, fire away.

The guide is a wonderful resource, and I plan on asking a few.

[Grod_The_Giant]

First question off the top of my head: The interaction between DM and Player concerning CRs (15 +(2x Creature's CR), IIRC). How should the be handled at the table to avoid spoiling things for the other players? I've a few brewing, though still brainstorming. I'd like to keep it quick and painless for the DM while still keeping things a mystery to the others.
"I target the goblin with a reversed word of nurturing. Does a 28 work?"

[Harrow]

I played a truenamer for about a year and a half to two years (there were a few breaks so it's hard to say precisely how long) and I thought it was great fun. With a bonus to truenaming equal to your class level you don't even have to try that hard. Add a silvertongue item, a custom competence item, an item familiar, a membership in the Paragnostic Assembly and skill focus, however much of that you think you'll need to get your abilities of a few times a day with a little metamagic without having to worry.

The Guidance of the Avatar thing seems like overkill to me, but it can be a lifesaver. I did mine with the list I mentioned minus the item familiar and was the only character who lasted the entire campaign. Just remember that basically nothing can stop you, as long as it's CR appropriate. You can ignore SR, which also means you can cast on golems without much trouble. You do mostly untyped damage, except energy negation which you get to pick a type for so it's probably going to be for your benefit, so you get unblockable damage without a save. No save on the Slow utterance either. There is one of Temporal Twist and Temporal Spiral, but you can raise the DC by getting a higher skill check, and both of those spells Daze, which very few things can ignore. I saved my party from some vicious Monstrous Crabs that way. For those not in the know, Monstrous Crabs are horribly under-CR'd, which normally means they tear parties to pieces. But, somehow that's actually an advantage for a truenamer.

The final thing I can say is do a little homebrew. Not one of the fixes for the class, because I don't think it needs it, but give them a few more options. Convert a few more metamagic feats over (Fell Drain Reverse Word of Nurturing ftw) and change some of the Acolyte of the Ego abilities into Utterances, make up new recitation feats, that kind of thing.

On the topic of Recitation feats, I have a lead I would like someone more knowledgeable to follow. My DM found and showed me once Recitation Feats from Dragon Magazine. They were like, make a check as an immediate action to stop an enemy from attacking one of your allies, then another one for spellcasting. They were a bit more limited than that, but they were still better than the ones in ToM. Unfortunately, I can't remember what issue it was from.

[sonofzeal]

Dip Marshal. At your level, Motivate Intelligence will help a lot.

[Ace Nex]

Contrary to popular belief, Truenamers aren't terribly god-aweful (they could be better). See if you can talk to your Dm to homebrew something, as the RAW for truenaming checks aren't particularly kind to those at higher levels. In the session I'm about to enter, our truenamer only has to make a check equal to the CR of the monster+level of word

[sonofzeal]

...as the RAW for truenaming checks aren't particularly kind to those at higher levels.
Actually, I've seen some pretty exhaustive math on the subject that demonstrates that, even without Item Familiar, you can keep up reasonably well. Also, Perfected Map invocations (like the Solid Fog one) have a static DC meaning a high level Truenamer can spam them effortlessly.

Really, it's the low/mid levels that just plain suck for a Truenamer - not because they can't hit the DCs, but because there's precious little worth doing when you can. Standard action, short range, short duration, single target debuffs simply need to be better to be worth spending actions on. You're pretty much better off just investing in UMD and scrolls/wands and playing an Artificer-lite rather than using your primary class feature half the time, especially since hitting those Truespeak DCs really does require significant investment for mediocre returns.

But at high level that no longer applies - the effects you can throw out are quite significant, and the nature of Truespeak gets around a lot of common defences. Plus, the larger your repertoire is, the less you have to repeat and the more your DCs stay reasonable throughout the day.

[Deox]

"I target the goblin with a reversed word of nurturing. Does a 28 work?"

I see this point, though I play with people who are good at math; I'd rather keep my roll and the result as secret as possible (except to the DM of course).


Dip Marshal. At your level, Motivate Intelligence will help a lot.

While I can appreciate the Marshal, I'm going to stick exclusively with Truenamer until 20th. Afterwards is uncertain.


The lower/mid levels are the worst of the group, and yes, as you progress things tend to ease up a bit.

Utterances. There are a few that I've scratched my head on. The more I think how cool one of the abilities is and how great it might seem, another class has gotten the ability to do it better (faster, stronger than before). Firstly, Ether Reforged. The utterance is instantaneous though ethereal jaunt is rounds/level. Am I misreading that if "Reversed" makes the target ethereal permanently?

Secondly, Perceive the Unseen. The use of the word "effectively" seems off. Is it concealment or acts like concealment but is not?

Thirdly, (Greater) Seek the Sky. Duration on the reverse is again, instantaneous. Is this another permanent effect? I'm leaning towards yes again.

...other things regarding some utterances as well...

I both love and hate these Lexicons.

[dascarletm]

I see this point, though I play with people who are good at math; I'd rather keep my roll and the result as secret as possible (except to the DM of course).


Here are a couple ideas I just thought of:

1. Have the DM roll your check for you. (give him a note card with your bonus and applicable situational modifiers. <Little more work for him/her>

2. Make your check actually a DC. Take 5+truename check as the DC, and the creature rolls a d20+2xCR. <still more work... actually not a really good idea.>

[Grod_The_Giant]

I see this point, though I play with people who are good at math; I'd rather keep my roll and the result as secret as possible (except to the DM of course).
I dunno, handle it the same way you do attack rolls? CR doesn't really tell you that much.


Utterances. There are a few that I've scratched my head on. The more I think how cool one of the abilities is and how great it might seem, another class has gotten the ability to do it better (faster, stronger than before).
Welcome to Truenaming!

[Deox]

Welcome to Truenaming!

I wonder if I'm really going to have to go through each and every utterance with my DM to make sure we're both on the same page of their interactions prior to play.

Probably.

[Deox]

Must, stop reading utterances...

...driving me so crazy I've gone full circle and am now sane.

Any notes/thoughts on the aforementioned utterances? I'd like to see the playground's take before uttering (couldn't help myself) another couple questions/concerns.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Firstly, Ether Reforged. The utterance is instantaneous though ethereal jaunt is rounds/level. Am I misreading that if "Reversed" makes the target ethereal permanently?
I'd say "as the ethereal jaunt spell" means rounds/level. Usually, if something is "as the spell" and has exceptions, it'll specify. Also, it's silly otherwise.


Secondly, Perceive the Unseen. The use of the word "effectively" seems off. Is it concealment or acts like concealment but is not?
I'd say concealment-- it does link us to the PHB page on concealment. But again, that's RAI. RAW, you could make the case that it does anything, but... you know, silly.


Thirdly, (Greater) Seek the Sky. Duration on the reverse is again, instantaneous. Is this another permanent effect? I'm leaning towards yes again.
OK, that one actually seems pretty clear. You speak the Word, and you target comes crashing to the ground. But there's no duration, so it can take off as normal next round, assuming it survives the fall.

[Deox]

I'd say "as the ethereal jaunt spell" means rounds/level. Usually, if something is "as the spell" and has exceptions, it'll specify. Also, it's silly otherwise.

I thought it would be silly too, but that "instantaneous" threw a wrench into my thoughts.



I'd say concealment-- it does link us to the PHB page on concealment. But again, that's RAI. RAW, you could make the case that it does anything, but... you know, silly.

DM said this would be "true" concealment, unlike a spell counterpart. No idea what he meant, but whatever. Concealment, any way you slice it, is good to me.


OK, that one actually seems pretty clear. You speak the Word, and you target comes crashing to the ground. But there's no duration, so it can take off as normal next round, assuming it survives the fall.

The more I read it, the more I err on that side too. Again, the instantaneous duration likes to make things silly.

Rebuild Item's qualifier of "Destroyed item touched" seems pretty vague. Is it potentially as abusive as I think it could be?

Spell Rebirth, brings back "an effect" that was just dispelled or dismissed. More ambiguous wording leads me to believe there is much potential here. Same with Incarnation of Angels.

[Zaq]

I go over pretty much all of these in my guide. Yes, they really are just that poorly-written. Especially Ether Reforged. That one's just insane. You might houserule it to be rounds/level or something (though such a duration would in fact be without precedent for Truenamers), but that's not what's written. It really is that bad.

For bonus points, if you haven't read it in my guide already, have you figured out what's screwed up in the wording of the Word of Nurturing line? It's not terribly ripe for abuse, but they really should have known better.

[Deox]

For bonus points, if you haven't read it in my guide already, have you figured out what's screwed up in the wording of the Word of Nurturing line? It's not terribly ripe for abuse, but they really should have known better.

To be honest, I haven't read it all, only skimmed certain parts. I did see the abuse/cheese section, but I didn't open the spoiler blocks as I wanted to discover things anew. Perhaps I could have saved myself some time, eh?

As far as the Word of Nurturing line is concerned, the only thing I see off the bat is how terribly it scales. Sure, the fast healing is nice, but it won't matter at the higher levels I don't think. One other thing that is sticking out is the maybe ability to make the check on one creature and then affect a completely different one with WoN, keeping down the Law of Resistance. Not sure, though.

[Fates]

I believe it was from one of the Neverwinter Nights games that introduced a Truenamer (or some variation) and I thought the concept was amazing.

Gonna be nit-picky here, apologies. Were you meaning the idea for a truenamer as a class in a roleplaying game, or as a concept in general? Because I'm fairly certain that the concept originated in modern fantasy with A Wizard of Earthsea.

[Deox]

Gonna be nit-picky here, apologies. Were you meaning the idea for a truenamer as a class in a roleplaying game, or as a concept in general? Because I'm fairly certain that the concept originated in modern fantasy with A Wizard of Earthsea.

No worries I should have been more clear. Sometimes I think faster than I type. I was referring to the first time I was introduced to the Truenamer.

[KillingAScarab]

I believe it was from one of the Neverwinter Nights games that introduced a Truenamer (or some variation) and I thought the concept was amazing.Nice to see someone else who found out about them through the Player's Resource Consortium. I could never figure out the radial menus and such for Truenamer. Too bad they stopped developing the PRC, or even updating their documentation. There's someone out there trying to make an open source version of the Aurora engine and I would love to see PRC content supported from the beginning, if not active by default. I'm still struggling with the augmentation implementation for psionics.

[koboldish]

Ah. I was inspired to play a Truenamer by the Eragon series. I went fairly low-op, and died in two sessions. My shadowcraft mage did fairly well after that :smallbiggrin:. Make sure you are on the same optimization level as the other players!

[Deox]

The group knows I'm planning on Truenamer, it's not an issue. I plan on doing a fair amount of optimization (to stay somewhat relevant), and I'll be totally fine when I can utter Gate (at 20th level, lol).

[Zaq]

What's your rough build so far, if you don't mind me asking? Are you following my basic model of "party encyclopedia," or are you aiming at something a bit different?

[Deox]

Interestingly enough, the DM will be allowing me to freely gestalt with a couple paragon classes; he stated should I wish to begin as a half-elf, I'd be eligible to begin play with the full half-elf (or human) paragon progression already completed with eligibility to gain the other later. These classes will not hurt my Truenamer progression in the least.

Currently, should I choose Half-Elf, I'd be looking at:


I'll be beginning play with the following array: 18,18,16,14,12,10. We will be playing with an advanced feat progression. Instead of a feat gained at 1st, 3rd and every 3 thereafter, we will progress with 1st, 2nd, and every even thereafter, much like the fighter. In addition, instead of +1 ability score boost every 4 levels, we will gain +1 to two scores (like SW:Saga).

Str: 10
Dex: 12
Con: 16
Int: 18
Wis: 14
Cha: 18

1. Truenamer / Half-Elf Paragon
2. Truenamer / Half-Elf Paragon
3. Truenamer / Half-Elf Paragon
4. Truenamer
5. Truenamer
6. Truenamer

Feats:
1st - Favored: Paragnostic Assembly
2nd - Knowledge Focus [Truespeak], Knowledge Devotion, Insightful Reflexes [Bonus]
4th - Extend Utterance
6th - Truename Research [B], Skill Focus: [?]

Utterances:
LoEM Known: 6
LoCT Known: 1

1st - Inertia Surge (LoEM)
2nd - Universal Aptitude (LoEM)
3rd - Knight's Puissance (LoEM)
4th - Hidden Truth (LoEM 2), Fortify Armor (LoCT 1)
5th - Perceive The Unseen (LoEM2)
6th - Speed of the Zephyer, Greather (LoEM 3)


Still in the rough stages, but this is kind of the direction I'm heading currently.