Return to Oz

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

Return to Oz (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0089908/?ref_=sr_1) is a 1985 family fantasy movie - the unofficial sequel to the original Wizard of Oz. I heard it was an underrated classic, so I decided to watch it.

Wow. Nightmare fuel.

Seriously. Return to Oz is one of the most nightmarish kid's movies I've seen in a while. Almost as chilling as The Cat in the Hat, starring Mike Myers. It included themes such as shock therapy and decapitation. There were evil minions called "wheelers", which were basically insane, deranged humans who's limbs terimate in wheels. There was a witch who has a hall full of living - but not conscious - severed heads. She would often swap one of the heads for her own. There was a whole plot point where she imprisoned Dorthy in a tower, waiting until she grew up so her head could be added to her collection.

Some of the characters were fascinating, too. There was a clockwork man trying to cope with the fact that he isn't truly alive. There was an animate scarecrow (not the one from the first movie) searching for an identity.

I don't mean to suggest that Return to Oz is perfect. The budget was limited, and it shows through in places. The comic relief character is spectacularly annoying. The script and acting are both kind of stilted in some places. The fight scenes look kind of stupid. I don't think of Return to Oz as a perfect classic and great work of art, but as diamond in the rough. Imperfect, but full of potential.

I would really like to see a remake. Maybe with Henry Selick as director and American McGee as part of the concept art team.

Being the type to dissect my favorite things and think of ways to make them better, I thought of some improvements ...

The wheelers, while very creepy, aren't threatening in a practical sense. They have no limbs or opposable thumbs. Their most efficient weapon is their mouths. Since they are sort of implied to be modified humans, perhaps they should have mechanical arms grafted to their shoulders.

I would like to see the witch's collection of heads encased in some sort of nutrient fluid, rather than just of pedestals. It would look cool, and work well with the concept. Or perhaps they are suspended in magical fields that keep them alive?

Tic Tok, the clockwork man, didn't look human enough. He is a sympathetic character. The audience should be able to empathize with him. Keep the metal body and the brass coloring, but give him more human-like proportions. I also notice he was supposed to have been created to fight in The Royal Army of Oz. Why no weapons or anything? He seems to fight be spinning his arms around rapidly while standing still, so as long as his adversaries walk around him, he poses no threat whatsoever. Fix this.

Drop the comic relief chicken. The chicken isn't funny.

Maybe give each area a more clearly defined colour scheme? The colours were kind of cluttered and busy. I guess this is partially due to budget, but in this age of CGI, it shouldn't be hard to fix.

Get someone who can act to play Dorothy. She was about as bad as Jennifer Connelly in Labyrinth. I understand that its hard to find good child actors, but its not like they don't exist, and there only needs to be one.

[Giggling Ghast]

I do remember liking Return to Oz when I saw it in my youth, though admittedly I didn't have very good taste in movies back then and can't really speak to its quality.

My most vivid memory is of the wheeler turning to sand in the Deadly Desert.


The wheelers, while very creepy, aren't threatening in a practical sense. They have no limbs or opposable thumbs. Their most efficient weapon is their mouths. Since they are sort of implied to be modified humans, perhaps they should have mechanical arms grafted to their shoulders.

Well, keep in mind this is Oz, wherein flying monkeys are the equivalent of nuclear weapons and buckets of water can defeat witches. The wheelers fit in thematically with the setting.


I would like to see the witch's collection of heads encased in some sort of nutrient fluid, rather than just of pedestals. It would look cool, and work well with the concept. Or perhaps they are suspended in magical fields that keep them alive?

I believe that's a feature of the setting. In Oz, decapitation doesn't kill you; severed heads continue "living," in a sense.


Tic Tok, the clockwork man, didn't look human enough. He is a sympathetic character. The audience should be able to empathize with him.

I think you run the risk of pushing Tik-Tok into the realm of the Uncanny Valley if you do that. I recall liking his design.


Drop the comic relief chicken. The chicken isn't funny.

But how would they defeat the Nome King?

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

Well, keep in mind this is Oz, wherein flying monkeys are the equivalent of nuclear weapons and buckets of water can defeat witches. The wheelers fit in thematically with the setting.
I recall one of them threatening to tear Dorthy into tiny pieces? How? With its teeth? That may be effective against a lone child, but not when she has a clockwork bodyguard.


It's an idea lifted from the original novels, the character with the interchangeable heads being Ozma of Oz.
I have nothing against artistic liberties for the sake of atmosphere.


I think you run the risk of pushing Tik-Tok into the realm of the Uncanny Valley if you do that. I recall liking his design.
I disagree. The original design looked kind of awkward and cumbersome. He's a great character, but he needs be more mobile and human-like. Think the Tin Man in the original movie.


But how would they defeat the Nome King?
... Good point. Maybe have a chicken, but make it less annoying?

[JoshL]

It's been a few years, but I loved this when it came out, and loved it when I last saw it. I'm not sure how I'd feel about a remake, but maybe revisiting some of the books that were source material for that might be good. Not that I think that was a great (or even particularly good) movie and should stand untouched, but I'd rather see someone developing the source in a different way than go back and retool someone else's vision.

Still, as you say, a nice bit of nightmare fuel :smallbiggrin:

[Giggling Ghast]

I recall one of them threatening to tear Dorthy into tiny pieces? How? With its teeth? That may be effective against a lone child, but not when she has a clockwork bodyguard.

That's sort of what I mean. It's Oz. Everything in it dances on a fine line separating awesome and completely laughable. The Wheelers are pretty dumb by real world standards, but in Oz they're dangerous thugs because the general populace is just that useless.

Look at Tik-Tok. He wasn't just a soldier in Oz's army, he was Oz's army.

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

That's sort of what I mean. It's Oz. Everything in it dances on a fine line separating awesome and completely laughable. The Wheelers are pretty dumb by real world standards, but in Oz they're dangerous thugs because the general populace is just that useless.

Look at Tik-Tok. He wasn't just a soldier in Oz's army, he was Oz's army.

I see what you mean, but I'm not sure that makes for very compelling stories. The first fight scene consisted of the wheelers stupidly blundering into Tick Tok's spinning arms. It broke the immersion.

[Eldan]

To be fair, the books themselves are also fairly high on the disturbing scale.

[Mauve Shirt]

Yes, the book is just as creepy! :smallbiggrin: And Tik-Tok (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tik-Tok_(Oz)) looked pretty much like his design in the book's illustrations, if I recall correctly.
Don't dis Billina! She saves Dorothy's life in one of the books!

To be honest, a remake would have to be just as honest to the books as Return to Oz. Oz The Great And Powerful was everything I dislike about "remakes" of Oz things. :smallsigh:

Edit: Ozma was not the witch with the different heads. :smallconfused: That was Princess Langwidere/Mombi.

[Remmirath]

It's been a long time since I saw that movie and longer since I read any of the books (I rather burned out on Oz related stuff more than a decade back), but I read them all enough times when I was a little kid that I still remember them rather well. My recollection is that Return to Oz was sort of a mashup of things from the two or three books directly after the original The Wizard of Oz, but not completely following any one book; I think it mostly is based on Ozma of Oz, with a good smattering of things from The Land of Oz (although changing the character dealing with the things from Ozma to Dorothy, which I found odd and annoying at the time, as I had always liked Ozma better and Ozma of Oz had been my favourite of the series).

I think I liked the movie pretty well when I saw it, but I think I also had some problems with it. It's been long enough I don't remember what they were, though, aside from the one mentioned above, and that I thought some of the acting was questionable.

I do agree that it is the sort of movie that it would actually make sense to remake -- as in, one which had budgetary issues and could have been done better with more budget, a more distinct focus on one book or the other, and better actors.

[TheThan]

Tic Toc MAKES that move. But yeah it is totally nightmare fuel.

[Serpentine]

I love that movie. Nice to see some people talking about it. I particularly love the Lunchpail Tree, and find the existence of the Gump particularly horrifying.
I would like to see the witch's collection of heads encased in some sort of nutrient fluid, rather than just of pedestals. It would look cool, and work well with the concept. Or perhaps they are suspended in magical fields that keep them alive?I disagree. I loved the cabinets. It was beautiful, which made the fact that they contain human heads even more horrific. They looked like fashion accessories, hats on elaborate stands waiting for their owner to swap and change on a whim - and that's exactly how the Sorceress treats them. There's a lot of Return to Oz that could use changing or improving. The hall of heads is not one of them.

Tic Tok, the clockwork man, didn't look human enough. He is a sympathetic character. The audience should be able to empathize with him. Keep the metal body and the brass coloring, but give him more human-like proportions. I also notice he was supposed to have been created to fight in The Royal Army of Oz. Why no weapons or anything? He seems to fight be spinning his arms around rapidly while standing still, so as long as his adversaries walk around him, he poses no threat whatsoever. Fix this.As mentioned, he was the Royal Army of Oz. I think it could help to make him a bit less cumbersome, but to make him actually, objectively, realistically effective I think would defeat part of the point and whimsy of Oz - things just don't make sense.

[Mauve Shirt]

Those cabinets aren't nearly as creepy as the ones that contain Nick Chopper's head! Oh man, a movie of The Tin Woodsman Of Oz would be REAL nightmare fuel.

[smellie_hippie]

I thoroughly enjoyed this movie (enough so that I own a DVD copy). You know that Dorothy also starred as a the wicked witch in "The Craft".

Without derailing the thread, how did you all feel about the Zoe Deschanel re-dux "Tin Man"?

[Serpentine]

Without derailing the thread, how did you all feel about the Zoe Deschanel re-dux "Tin Man"?I really, really wanted to love it, but it just... fell so flat. There's a whole lot of bits and ideas that were great, but... I think it just didn't engage me, emotionally. Can't remember much more detail than that.

[Closet_Skeleton]

I disagree. The original design looked kind of awkward and cumbersome. He's a great character, but he needs be more mobile and human-like. Think the Tin Man in the original movie.

In the books at least, the Tin Man was a cyborg while the Tik-Tok man was an android. The Tin Man was born human (munchkin?), Tik-Tok just has human level intelligence and a soul but is not human.

[Giggling Ghast]

Edit: Ozma was not the witch with the different heads. :smallconfused: That was Princess Langwidere/Mombi.

Yes, I realized my mistake later. Sometimes I get the books and the anime mixed up.

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

Yes, I realized my mistake later. Sometimes I get the books and the anime mixed up.

I think I recall the anime being soft core hentai? Or was that the Alice in Wonderland anime?

[smuchmuch]

.. Uh.

The only Oz anime I can think of would be that one (http://oz.wikia.com/wiki/The_Wonderful_Wizard_of_Oz_%28anime%29).
it (loosely) followed more or less some of the books.
If it was softcore porn then it was some sure heavily disguised one (but, y'know, with japan ... :smalltongue:)

[Giggling Ghast]

I think I recall the anime being soft core hentai? Or was that the Alice in Wonderland anime?

The 1986 series that I speak of certainly was not, but I can't say the same of later shows.

[Alabenson]

The wheelers, while very creepy, aren't threatening in a practical sense. They have no limbs or opposable thumbs. Their most efficient weapon is their mouths. Since they are sort of implied to be modified humans, perhaps they should have mechanical arms grafted to their shoulders.

The fact that the wheelers don't actually pose much of an actual threat despite their bluster was actualy a minor plot point in the orginal novels; Dorothy realizes this and essentially embaresses them into submition when she points it out.
Frankly I wish they had left that scene in as it showed how Dorothy wasn't a complete pushover.

[JustSomeGuy]

Not seen the movie in about 20+ years, but wasn't there a 50-odd ton rock guy who could hurl boulders and probably crush anything he chose?