Cloud of Knives

[Fyermind]

Basically I want to talk about how much I like this spell.

Imagine a character who can persist spells cheaply. Say a spelldancer who can recover from fatigue and constitution damage. It now has as many free action attacks per round as it persists Cloud of Knives spells. They each deal 1d6+1/3 level. That's not a lot of damage individually, though they could add up. The mechanic says you have to be within 30' of your target at the beginning of the round, which is a tad annoying, but for anyone who frequents melee, that is pretty common anyways. Sure there are better spells to persist, but the damage isn't bad for a passive offense.

The real glory comes from it being a weaponlike spell. Knowledge devotion works on it. Sneak attack works on it. Skirmish doesn't, because they have to be fired at the beginning of your turn, but sudden strike does. Warmage edge works on it too if you like warmages.

Consider a necropolitan spellthief / wizard / Unseen seer with a single level of spelldancer. It has small but noticeable sneak attack damage and may eventually pick up craven. That is possibly 4d6+26+knowledge devotion damage per attack at level 20. That's not too shabby for a second level spell slot and a free action. A focused conjurer with high int has 8-9 of them every round.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Needs moar fell X metamagic (you are a spell dancer/incantatrix you don't care about metamagic costs)

[Harrow]

As far as I know, you can't be under the same spell effect multiple times, so you only get one knife per round. The per-round limit also means normal action economy shenanigans won't help you, forcing the Belt of Battle and White Raven Tactics to the wayside (for once).

But, it is a weapon-like spell. Throw together some Spellthief, Warmage, and Unseen Seer with the Master Spellthief, Craven, and Knowledge Devotion feats. Then Empower it :smallbiggrin:

[Jigokuro]

What can you do with... Cloud of Knives (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=797g1e0o3jdt1m4p3fgokb5r23&topic=4571.msg69397#msg69397). A link you may like, if having just seen it is not why you posted this, lol.

[Jigokuro]

As far as I know, you can't be under the same spell effect multiple times,

News to me, and there are numerous people that have brought up stacking cloud of knives before without this coming up; can you find a source? :smallconfused:
Totally a good house rule to prevent these shenanigans, but I don't think already RAW.

[Fyermind]

I had not seen that link. I have a spelldancer warmage who very much likes the idea of repeat spell and twin spell. I'd forgotten about them.

[Harrow]

Well, after looking into it, I can say that it isn't hard and clear cut RAW.

First, I checked out the SRD. My search brought me to a page on Casting Spells, and then to the section on Combining Magical Effects.

"Same Effect More than Once in Different Strengths

In cases when two or more identical spells are operating in the same area or on the same target, but at different strengths, only the best one applies. "

I know for a fact that my DM would interpret "different strengths" broadly enough that if I cast a spell on myself twice, everything else the same, the second casting would have a 1 round longer duration than the first, because it was cast a round into the first casting's duration, so the first one would no longer apply. It wouldn't be dispelled, so if the one I was using got dispelled later I could use knives from the first casting, but never more than one knife per round.

The relevant text is also on page 172 of the Player's Handbook, and there it includes an example that implies that what I've mentioned above was not what the authors had in mind, but IMO reading through the stacking rules it feels like having multiple clouds of knives up is against the spirit of them, for however much that matters.

[Amiria]

Well, I too don't think that a character can get more then one attack per round no matter how many Cloud of Knives he has cast.

Still, it is a fun spell with potential, both for its weaponlike properties and to boost with metamagic.

I currently have a Drow Diviner 5 / Incantatrix 3 / Master Specialist 1 with Fell Drain and Persistent Spell. Currently she can only can only persist normal 2nd level spells but with the right (and cheap) magic item she'll be able to persist a Fell Drain Cloud of Knives in 1 or 2 levels.

[Fouredged Sword]

There is a spell that does something close, but with all adjacent foes. Wall of blades or something.

I like to pair them up.

Also, don't forget to share Cloud of Knives with your familiar. Free extra knife each round!

[Hat-Trick]

I want to make a Blade Mage now...

[Karoht]

I believe Dragonfire Inspiration applies to this spell. Which is pretty awesome. If you can combo it with the Pathfinder Spell Twilight Knife (it essentially does the same thing as Cloud of Knives, except it automatically triggers when you attack something, it doesn't take up action economy other than casting it, AND it deals Sneak Attack based on your caster level if it flanks) it works out to a lot of free damage.

[Amiria]

Also, don't forget to share Cloud of Knives with your familiar. Free extra knife each round!

Oh yes, that's a indisputable way to get more then 1 knife per round. But if you use your familiar in such an aggressive way, I advise in using spells and magic items that protect him from the ire of the DM opponents.

[dascarletm]

The question is:
How evil is it to use this on your players? :smallamused:

[Amiria]

A fell metamagic persistent version ? Not very. Arcane Turmoil / targeted (Greater) Dispel Magic or any spell / effect / movement that ruins line of sight / effect for the caster are easy counters.

[Jack_Simth]

As far as I know, you can't be under the same spell effect multiple times, so you only get one knife per round. Correct. To do that sort of stacking, you want an Effect spell (like, say, Holy Star).