DMM persist Time Stop

[Immabozo]

There are plenty of domains that grant Time Stop.

Cleric with one of said domains

Cast DMM persisted Time Stop

Maybe Extend it? (rod of MM Extend)

Infinite time to go anywhere you want, or do anything you want (like study up on a given encounter)

???

Profit

[Fyermind]

I think you still age, so make sure you play an immortal race.

[GoatBoy]

Don't forget to have a heal prepared for the book-shaped dent that's going to appear in your forehead.

Pierce may have won Dungeons & Dragons (and it was Advanced!), but do you really want to be Pierce?

[Harrow]

You kind of can't persist Time Stop. It's been stated that doesn't really take any time because its duration is entirely percieved time, but, honestly, they may as well have just errata'd "Doesn't work with Time Stop" into the description of Time Stop.

But, assuming you could, you get into some other issues. Time Stop wasn't designed with spending years in stopped time, so you have to come up with your own on what percieved time really is. Do you get spells back? Do you age? Clerics have to pray at a particular time every day to get spells back, so I would think they wouldn't be able to do that while time stopped. And what of charge/day items in your possession?

[Neo Tin Robo]

Duration: 1d4+1 rounds (apparent time); see text

People always ignore the bolded part. Time Stop is really instantaneous. You just move so fast it seems like multiple rounds go by. Hence you can't persist it, nor can you extend it, but you could empower and maximize it.

[Curmudgeon]

It's not infinite time; it's 24 hours of effective rounds. So you do whatever you want for what seems like 24 hours to you, then the game resumes right after when you cast the spell.

[Fyermind]

How would gravity work if you were moving that fast? Could you even rely on friction with the ground to walk places? Would you be able to drop something and then not see it fall?

[Tvtyrant]

In fact I believe there is a build which lives an infinite number of lifetimes between rounds. I believe it was Spell to Power Erudite Elan using the infinite power point trick. It simply casts time stop on the last round of the last time stop forever.

[Lord Vukodlak]

There are plenty of domains that grant Time Stop.

Cleric with one of said domains

Cast DMM persisted Time Stop

Maybe Extend it? (rod of MM Extend)

Infinite time to go anywhere you want, or do anything you want (like study up on a given encounter)

???

Profit

Hmm if the PC is being that munchkin how could the DM be a royal bastard and screw em over. Ah! have the duration last for 24 hours of real time not apparent time so the character would die of thirst, starvation or perhaps old age. Before the spell finally expired. Clerics prepare there spells at a set time day not simply after eight hours of rest. So said cleric would never be able to re-prepare his spells.

Or maybe just have it screw up the spell and YOU act for 1d4+1 rounds of apparent time while 24 hours pass in the real world.

[Morcleon]

Hmm if the PC is being that munchkin how could the DM be a royal bastard and screw em over. Ah! have the duration last for 24 hours of real time not apparent time so the character would die of thirst, starvation or perhaps old age. Before the spell finally expired. Clerics prepare there spells at a set time day not simply after eight hours of rest. So said cleric would never be able to re-prepare his spells.

Or maybe just have it screw up the spell and YOU act for 1d4+1 rounds of apparent time while 24 hours pass in the real world.

If you're high enough level to cast a persisted time stop, how do you not have a Ring of Sustenance already? As for old age, if you're going to be persisting time stop, simply play an immortal race and be done with it. You wouldn't be able to prepare divine spells, but an arcane caster should be fine.

By that twisting of persist, since the real world duration is instantaneous, you can't persist it anyway. :smallwink::smalltongue:

[Lord Vukodlak]

If you're high enough level to cast a persisted time stop, how do you not have a Ring of Sustenance already? As for old age, if you're going to be persisting time stop, simply play an immortal race and be done with it. You wouldn't be able to prepare divine spells, but an arcane caster should be fine.

By that twisting of persist, since the real world duration is instantaneous, you can't persist it anyway. :smallwink::smalltongue:

An arcane caster isn't going to Divine Metamagic a persistent time stop. High level characters might have more important things to use their two ring slots for then giving up food.

And ring of sustenance takes one week before it starts to take effect. You need to put the ring on BEFORE you run out of supplies. You'd die of thirst three days better hope your stockpiled.

Also standard races aren't immortal an elf may live a thousand years but its not immortal.

[lord_khaine]

As it has allready been mentioned a couple of times, then its not possibel to persist Time Stop.

[Morcleon]

An arcane caster isn't going to Divine Metamagic a persistent time stop. High level characters might have more important things to use their two ring slots for then giving up food.

And ring of sustenance takes one week before it starts to take effect. You need to put the ring on BEFORE you run out of supplies. You'd die of thirst three days better hope your stockpiled.

Also standard races aren't immortal an elf may live a thousand years but its not immortal.

Use Southern Magician or any way of arcane -> divine of your choice. High level characters could simply pay the x1.5 price increase to get the ring's magic placed on an existing ring. Magic item stacking is fairly common at high levels.

Yes, it takes one week. Which is assumed to have been done before game start. If you get the ring in game, then simply wait one week before you start persisting stuff.

Standard races aren't immortal, but non-standard ones can be. Also, undead/construct races don't age (if you go this route, then you don't even need the ring of sustenance).

[Immabozo]

It can be persisted because it's range is personal. The duration (of apparent time) is no longer 1D4+1 rounds, its 24 hours. I would argue 8 hours of apparent time is enough to rest and regain spells. There is no ruling I've ever heard of that clerics must pray at a certain time. But, again, that time would apparently be achieved at some point in the apparent time.

But even so, you can spend a week easily off of 1 days spells with a MM rod of extend, and read up on a badie, going through half of a whole library in actual time, half an instant.

Then know everything there is to know about this badie and know exactly how to stop him!

[Morcleon]

There is no ruling I've ever heard of that clerics must pray at a certain time. But, again, that time would apparently be achieved at some point in the apparent time.

Actually, there is. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/divineSpells.htm#timeofDay)

Also, since real world time is stuck at one instant, that time of spell preparation would never come until after the time stop ended.

[Lord Vukodlak]

There is no ruling I've ever heard of that clerics must pray at a certain time. But, again, that time would apparently be achieved at some point in the apparent time.



Time of Day

A divine spellcaster chooses and prepares spells ahead of time, just as a wizard does. However, a divine spellcaster does not require a period of rest to prepare spells. Instead, the character chooses a particular part of the day to pray and receive spells. The time is usually associated with some daily event. If some event prevents a character from praying at the proper time, he must do so as soon as possible. If the character does not stop to pray for spells at the first opportunity, he must wait until the next day to prepare spells.
Do note that any spells cast in the last eight hours still count against the cleric even though they don't require rest but that part is in a different paragraph.

The time wouldn't be achieved at some point during the timestop. Because the time of day is frozen.

Edit:Ninja'ed by Morcleon

[Flickerdart]

Obviously, you freeze time at the time you normally prepare spells. Then it's always that time.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Obviously, you freeze time at the time you normally prepare spells. Then it's always that time.

You can only prepare spells once per-day.

[Immabozo]

If some event prevents a character from praying at the proper time, he must do so as soon as possible.

I would argue that 48 hours of apparent time would definitely be fitting this ruling. Or else, a divine spell caster would never be able to prepare spells on a plane with no time, or would have to constantly stop on a plane with accelerated time, or only once every few days to a week on slowed time.

As far as the DM messing with you, that sounds like something that would come into play if it was a wish spell. Any other occurrences are house rulings.

But even if you couldn't prepare spells, you could still, as I said, read up, or you could get away from any opponent, or you could sneak past any obstacle, any trap, any monster and steal the prize! (assuming it isn't being carried by anyone) You could cast fly and then arrange lots of heavy boulders to fall on all the baddies, dig massive pit traps, set up other obstacles, etc.

[dascarletm]

One does not persist Time Stop because of what lurks within the "null time." Of all the powerful casters throughout the ages not one has gone more than 30 seconds of apparent time in the null time. All those who have tried have never returned, and are never heard of again. For what lurks their is more terrifying than anything you can imagine...

Enter my next high-level campaign plot :smallbiggrin:

Thank you OP for helping me in this.

[Malroth]

have the PC's be the 5th lv hirelings/apprentices of some wizard who was planning on trying it and have the boss/mentor dissapear without a trace. Then of course immediately afterwards the masters old enemy shows up and the person who was supposed to save the world is nowhere to be found. The pc's now have to either find out what happened to the master or gather enough personal power to replace him rather quickly.

[Zero grim]

well the three versions of the spell being cast I see are:

1: It doesn't work, because common sense (read as god of time) says it doesn't.

2: It does work, the time stop has a duration of 24 hours BUT your only free to act in 1d4+1 rounds as this is a separate area of the text that persist doesn't interact with (both empower and maximise state they increase all variable numerical values, so they still work with time stop)

3: It works exactly how you want it to, which means it acts this way for every other cleric, At best your invited into a secret order that harness this great power for the good of all mankind or at worst the big bad is unbeatable if he has a cleric on his payroll.

there's got to be a cleric version of explosive runes right? "guess which spell I prepared this second"

[Fyermind]

I believe the readings are:

1) Of course it doesn't work. It would be terrible.

2) It doesn't actually have a duration, it just has a number of rounds it works in apparent time, so you can't extend or persist it.

3) Sure it works, but you still only get 1d4+1 rounds worth of actions.

4) I mean, if you hadn't broken the game by the time you could cast time stop, you look like you could use some help. Sure.

[Immabozo]

One does not persist Time Stop because of what lurks within the "null time." Of all the powerful casters throughout the ages not one has gone more than 30 seconds of apparent time in the null time. All those who have tried have never returned, and are never heard of again. For what lurks their is more terrifying than anything you can imagine...

Enter my next high-level campaign plot :smallbiggrin:

Thank you OP for helping me in this.

Glad to help! Sounds like a campaign I might not mind playing in!

[navar100]

Funny, I remember way back when in 2E there was a 2nd level cleric spell, Withdraw, that did what Time Stop does. The cleric can spend a few apparent rounds in one round, but he could only cast limited types of spells, such as healing himself and personal buffs. In my 2E days, no one would cast it.

[Immabozo]

Funny, I remember way back when in 2E there was a 2nd level cleric spell, Withdraw, that did what Time Stop does. The cleric can spend a few apparent rounds in one round, but he could only cast limited types of spells, such as healing himself and personal buffs. In my 2E days, no one would cast it.

haha, thats funny! But, then again, it is limited in what you can do, so I can see the viewpoint, but again, it is a few free rounds of buffing when you really need them!

[Jack_Simth]

You kind of can't persist Time Stop. It's been stated that doesn't really take any time because its duration is entirely percieved time, but, honestly, they may as well have just errata'd "Doesn't work with Time Stop" into the description of Time Stop.
Kind of. The only place WotC actually says that is the 3.0 FAQ, which has... shall we say "highly varying weight"... amongst players. People make the "Apparent time" argument, but it's not exactly an ironclad one. Does Time Stop have a duration other than instantaneous? Yes (but see notes). Is it fixed or personal range? Yes. So it applies. Kind of.

The note, of course, is the question of "does 'apparent time' meet the definition of 'instantaneous duration'?" - the answer to which you won't get agreement on between the two sides of the debate.

However, there's a couple of basic interpretations for the interaction:
1) Doesn't work - Time Stop is 'effectively instantaneous', and isn't subject to Persisting.
2) It works as you'd expect, and you get a day free (although if you're going the Divine route, you've got a problem in that you have to pray to get your spells at a fixed time of day - so you can get this extra day once a day, and that's it... and you can't re-prepare spells in this time - check out Southern Magician, Alternate Source Spell, Incantatrix, and Geomancer, however).
3) It doesn't work as you'd expect. The spell lasts 24 hours... during which you can take 1d4+1 rounds worth of actions... which you can't use directly offensively. Additionally, there's nothing stopping other people from hurting your time-frozen form.
4) Hybrid of 2 and 3. You get 1d4+1 rounds of apparent time that you can burn in whole or in part at any point during the next 24 hours, although you can't directly affect anyone when using these spare rounds (useful, but not too overpowered for many campaigns). You're free to act normally as well.

[ericgrau]

At epic levels a party of mages with intensify spell and spell stowaway (time stop) can work pretty well. It may not be all day but you can do a lot in the 40+ rounds of time stop. Or even at level 21 spell stowaway alone works well, and then you slowly add on increasing amounts of metamagic.

In that time you can still entrap everything that can't teleport, energy substituted extended delayed blast fireball everything that isn't energy immune, summon an army, etc.

[Immabozo]

Kind of. The only place WotC actually says that is the 3.0 FAQ, which has... shall we say "highly varying weight"... amongst players. People make the "Apparent time" argument, but it's not exactly an ironclad one. Does Time Stop have a duration other than instantaneous? Yes (but see notes). Is it fixed or personal range? Yes. So it applies. Kind of.

The note, of course, is the question of "does 'apparent time' meet the definition of 'instantaneous duration'?" - the answer to which you won't get agreement on between the two sides of the debate.

However, there's a couple of basic interpretations for the interaction:
1) Doesn't work - Time Stop is 'effectively instantaneous', and isn't subject to Persisting.
2) It works as you'd expect, and you get a day free (although if you're going the Divine route, you've got a problem in that you have to pray to get your spells at a fixed time of day - so you can get this extra day once a day, and that's it... and you can't re-prepare spells in this time - check out Southern Magician, Alternate Source Spell, Incantatrix, and Geomancer, however).
3) It doesn't work as you'd expect. The spell lasts 24 hours... during which you can take 1d4+1 rounds worth of actions... which you can't use directly offensively. Additionally, there's nothing stopping other people from hurting your time-frozen form.
4) Hybrid of 2 and 3. You get 1d4+1 rounds of apparent time that you can burn in whole or in part at any point during the next 24 hours, although you can't directly affect anyone when using these spare rounds (useful, but not too overpowered for many campaigns). You're free to act normally as well.

You bring up a great point. I could see another possibility, you get 1D4+1 rounds of actions, every round, all day. Time still flows, just differently for you.

But the "Spontaneous Domain Spells" ACF in PHB II allows casting it several times off of one day's spells

[Cruiser1]

In fact I believe there is a build which lives an infinite number of lifetimes between rounds. I believe it was Spell to Power Erudite Elan using the infinite power point trick. It simply casts time stop on the last round of the last time stop forever.
Meh, Time Stop is underpowered because you can't attack opponents inside of it. :smallwink: A real optimized character has infinite standard actions in a row, so they can do infinite damage! Priya the Prismatic Priestess (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=280365) has infinite standard actions (provided through Greater Arcane Fusion, and without Sanctum Spell cheese). Although Priya also makes use of Time Stop to power her infinite spells.

[Immabozo]

Meh, Time Stop is underpowered because you can't attack opponents inside of it. :smallwink: A real optimized character has infinite standard actions in a row, so they can do infinite damage! Priya the Prismatic Priestess (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=280365) has infinite standard actions (provided through Greater Arcane Fusion, and without Sanctum Spell cheese). Although Priya also makes use of Time Stop to power her infinite spells.

But having infinite time to set up traps and dig spike pits and maneuver boulders to fall on foes, spike boards to fall into them and skewer them, dig out the land from under their feet, and arrange all sorts of other manacle methods of doom when time resumes

[Flickerdart]

But having infinite time to set up traps and dig spike pits and maneuver boulders to fall on foes, spike boards to fall into them and skewer them, dig out the land from under their feet, and arrange all sorts of other manacle methods of doom when time resumes
By the time that Time Stop is available, none of those things are going to be even remotely threatening to anybody that's a level-appropriate challenge for you.

[dascarletm]

By the time that Time Stop is available, none of those things are going to be even remotely threatening to anybody that's a level-appropriate challenge for you.

Make 40 magical traps of avasculate, and 1 power word kill. Unless it has 40,000 HP it dies.

EDIT: (More than that I think actually.) 1x10^14 HP.

[Immabozo]

Make 40 magical traps of avasculate, and 1 power word kill. Unless it has 40,000 HP it dies.

That works! Just cause I didn't think of the exact perfect execution, doesn't mean its a poor tactic

[Cruiser1]

Make 40 magical traps of avasculate, and 1 power word kill. Unless it has 40,000 HP it dies. EDIT: (More than that I think actually.) 1x10^14 HP.
That's a nice trap, but no worry to a reasonably buffed character. :smallsmile: Both Avasculate (SC) and Power Word Kill are [death] spells, so Death Ward prevents them. Avasculate is also a ray spell, so Ray Deflection (SC) prevents it. Also, Power Word Kill is [mind-affecting], so Mind Blank prevents it. 40 traps of a 7th level spell (even just one shot) will cost 50x7x13x40 = 182000 gp, where that big of a chunk of your WBL is probably better spent elsewhere.

[dascarletm]

That's a nice trap, but no worry to a reasonably buffed character. :smallsmile: Both Avasculate (SC) and Power Word Kill are [death] spells, so Death Ward prevents them. Avasculate is also a ray spell, so Ray Deflection (SC) prevents it. Also, Power Word Kill is [mind-affecting], so Mind Blank prevents it. 40 traps of a 7th level spell (even just one shot) will cost 50x7x13x40 = 182000 gp, where that big of a chunk of your WBL is probably better spent elsewhere.

you are timestopped for eternity, you can just take what you need, and ya'll are clever change the trap recipe to flavor for your target. You have plenty of time to research/detect all the buffs and abilities it has.

[Immabozo]

you are timestopped for eternity, you can just take what you need, and ya'll are clever change the trap recipe to flavor for your target. You have plenty of time to research/detect all the buffs and abilities it has.

My point exactly!!

[dascarletm]

My point exactly!!

And this is why I would use the plot idea I mentioned if I were to allow it in any game I DM. :smallwink:

[Immabozo]

And this is why I would use the plot idea I mentioned if I were to allow it in any game I DM. :smallwink:

I see your point

[TypoNinja]

You can only prepare spells once per-day.

"day" in D&D is actually a defined term, its 24 hours from the last use of the -/day ability. They bothered to specify so you couldn't use a 1/day ability twice in a row on either side of midnight.

[Immabozo]

"day" in D&D is actually a defined term, its 24 hours from the last use of the -/day ability. They bothered to specify so you couldn't use a 1/day ability twice in a row on either side of midnight.

where was this decided? I'd like to read it! So then 48 hours of "apparent time" would suffice, right?

[Jack_Simth]

"day" in D&D is actually a defined term, its 24 hours from the last use of the -/day ability. They bothered to specify so you couldn't use a 1/day ability twice in a row on either side of midnight.
Hmm... I haven't seen that one; do you happen to have a book and page reference?

[Osiris]

Wait, explain how you have infinite actions again?
Also, once you have a persisted 24 hour time stop, if you couldn't attack then I would only use it to cast standard action-equivalent long casting spells, like control weather or another 24hour divination.

If you could attack, though, that would be real cheesy, and force your DM to make some anti-magic fields, the wise wizard's greatest foe

[dascarletm]

Wait, explain how you have infinite actions again?
Also, once you have a persisted 24 hour time stop, if you couldn't attack then I would only use it to cast standard action-equivalent long casting spells, like control weather or another 24hour divination.

If you could attack, though, that would be real cheesy, and force your DM to make some anti-magic fields, the wise wizard's greatest foe

Assuming you can re-prepare spells while in the null time of persisted (or persisted then extended) Time Stop you can keep casting Persisted Extended Time Stop to your hearts content. While you do not have infinite rounds (you really can't have infinite anything because the game can only last so long, and our RL human lives are finite) you have effectively limitless rounds in which you can do most anything. The exceptions to anything being those prescribed in the Time Stop spell description. While you cannot hit your enemy with your sword or affect any creature with a spell, you can take anything not being held at the time. Thus, you walk to the nearest town, take everything not bolted down (such as items to craft magic traps with or whatever you need)... etc.

EDIT: Also:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=233907

[Immabozo]

Wait, explain how you have infinite actions again?
Also, once you have a persisted 24 hour time stop, if you couldn't attack then I would only use it to cast standard action-equivalent long casting spells, like control weather or another 24hour divination.

If you could attack, though, that would be real cheesy, and force your DM to make some anti-magic fields, the wise wizard's greatest foe

Time stop lasts for 24 hours, 48 if you have a MM rod of Extend. That's 86,400 rounds, or 172,800 over 2 days to set up whatever shenanigans you please. Rest and pray for more spells, do it again. Or, if the DM rules with the above arguments about why you can't (which I personally disagree with, obviously) the cleric ACF from PHB II to spontaneously cast domain spells, a cleric with a wisdom of 34 (18 to start + 5 from levels + 5 from tombs/miracles/wishes/whatever + 6 from items) at level 17 gets 3 level 9 spells. With all of them DMM persisted time stop plus a MM wand of extend can get you 6 days of actions (518,400 rounds) is not infinite at that point, but if you cant use it to win, you dont deserve to!