Writing Advice - How to reduce tendency to infodump?

[jseah]

I write stories as a hobby and have noticed that the more I plan a setting/plot/characters, the more I tend to have infodumps and the longer they are.

It is said that the reader should know everything the characters know that is relevant to the story. In the case of the latest one I am writing, due to a combination of a strange setting, inspiration and pre-planning the entire story, I have run into the problem of requiring the reader to know too much:

Specifically, the following bits of information are needed for the reader to understand the story:
= physical description of the world
== being floating islands and a deadly mist on the ground, a description of the world and how it works is required; a number of plot points depend on the various constraints this places on the characters
== this includes a description of modified humans whose three to four characteristics are key to explaining the racial tension and/or are used in major plot points

= history of how the world got the way it is
== this factors into one of the major plotlines that converges to the main characters' plotlines in the second half; also, most of the world makes zero sense without at least some history (eg. why are they doing X?)

= political entities / society
== a central powerful entity and its hostile stance to modified humans; a less hostile but still discriminatory union of commercial companies; a highly in-bred family inheriting responsibility for the world; underground rebellion aiming to gain rights for modified people; each factions' leaders and relations to each other
== all of these have major plotlines that do things that the main characters are affected by

It does not help that the magic system is complicated (being that magic system).


Put together, the total infodump would run around 1.5 pages or so. Clearly I can't do that, but even breaking it up as the sections are introduced breaks the flow horribly. I can't go into a two paragraph mini-infodump as a pilot brings his airship to dock and again when he returns home next section.

Yet I can't leave out the information until too late. You don't want readers to wonder why the central powerful entity didn't go after the main character only to go "oh that's why" two chapters later when you finally get around to giving their rivals air time.

It does not help that some of the info depends on others, and scenes that would be convenient to demonstrate some bit of info requires some other piece to be known. (I cannot introduce the family's test for TP episodes until a basic explanation of modified humans and bloodlines is understood)


Suggestions on how to make it work better without outright infodumps would be extremely helpful.

[Grinner]

Hollywood has taught me that the audience won't care about the backstory as long as you're providing an interesting narrative.

Definitely reveal who the story's players are (in a suitably dramatic fashion, of course), but their motivations don't need to be expounded upon immediately. Leave hints, give foreshadowing, but don't go and flash the story's tits all at once. You need to pace how much information you dole out. Mystery is the heart of drama.

[BWR]

"As you already know..."

Seriously, this is a hard one. Straight info dumps can work. One author I am fond of, Matthew Stover, does this quite a bit, and it works to make the story even more exciting. The important thing is to make the info exciting, not just boring facts.

Having a stranger to the setting asking the questions the readers are asking themselves is another time honored tradition. Then you run the risk of the Doctor Who companion syndrome, where your main purpose of the character is to not understand what is going on and have it all explained to you so the viewer/reader can understand it too.

And there is the straight descriptive method. If floating islands are an important part of it, mention this when describing the setting. Don't be afraid to spend some time describing the world you live in. If readers are only interested in action and not setting, they won't read much at all.

Describe how the floating islands move about, describe how the mist leaves unfortunate victims behind, make sure to show off a few of the different racs and stress the physical differences.

Describe how people react when some situation arises. If the in-breds talk about unrest among the lesser beings, show how they grimace at the thought of them.

A few lines of descriptive text will get you a long way. The best thing to do is read a lot and see how other authors manage this. Pick up just about any book you like with the sort of elements you have in your story and see how it's done by other people.
Remember, lesser people are inspired by someone, greater people plagarize.

[jseah]

I have been thinking of replacing all the infodumps with mini-scenes that involve the thing being introduced. Essentially, disguise the infodump with some character interaction and minor daily-life events.

I tackled the describing the islands and mist by having a section for the main character in her childhood explorations where she looks over the edge of the island. That one read quite well and didn't feel like an infodump.

The problem is that I can't do that for the entire bunch because it's going to be more than 2 chapters worth of disconnected scenes/characters. I already have a segment of two characters' childhoods and short scenes in ancient past and 400 years ago for stuff that have no good way to be explained, as part of the prologue that is already almost too long, being ~6k words.

I'll look at other books for techniques. Thanks, I don't know why I didn't think of that.

[McStabbington]

I am not a writer, only someone who has seen and heard a lot of storytelling and, therefore, seen and heard a lot of infodumps, some done well and some done poorly. So while I can't really offer any specific advice, allow me to offer some general points that might help you pace out your information dumping a little.

1) Trust the reader.

This is really the root cause of most of the bad infodumping I've seen, because there is always an assumption that if you don't present all the info at the same time, multiple times, with all the subtlety of a hammer to the noggin, that the reader will be lost when the information becomes relevant. The truth is that if you've presented your information well, and logically, the reader will be able to follow along. And if something doesn't make sense at first, they can always go back and re-read a passage because successful infodumps will always leave a "wait, didn't they talk about that before" in the reader's heads.

2) Split the info into chunks, and present the info as such.

Okay, so you have a detailed history and geography of your society. Well, what you need to do next is to split that information into what you might call clusters of info. A cluster is a network of related ideas that really has to be presented together to be understood. And then the trick is to sprinkle those clusters through the story. So, for instance, you could split your "geography" section into a couple of clusters: one cluster is the geography of the floating islands, and one for what the islands are floating on. And then you split that info and sprinkle it in through the story. At the beginning, the character could be walking through the city, and he has to take a specific route in order to avoid "The Edge". And then later on, you have another scene where the character has to discuss or observe "The Edge".

3) Don't be afraid to leave the reader asking "Wait, what info do I not know yet?"

The best use of infodumps I've seen leaves me asking about the next logical step in the progression, and it really serves as a good functional way of sorting our your clusters: what is just enough information to give the reader enough information to imagine the next logical step on his own?

A good example of this that I remember was The Council of Elrond in the Lord of the Rings, because in addition to providing a lot of information, it also presaged a lot of next steps the story would take: we learned, for instance, from Gloin some crucial information about Moria: that the Dwarves made it, they were driven out, that Balin tried to retake it but disappeared in the attempt, and that Gandalf knows enough about Moria to find it genuinely frightening and completely futile for the dwarves to try and retake it on their own. That of course led to the next set of questions: what could be so powerful that it would overwhelm an army of Dwarves and genuinely scare Gandalf? But we are only gradually let in on the secret, and only given the full disclosure when the hammer falls on the company.

[Barsoom]

Read Heinlein. He's become known for his skill to weave infodump into the storyline seamlessly.

[Grinner]

Read Heinlein. He's become known for his skill to weave infodump into the storyline seamlessly.

Speaking of narrative infodumps, try this short story (http://www.gregstolze.com/fiction_library/TRANSMIT.pdf).

[warty goblin]

Remember, if you're bored writing it, I'm probably going to be bored reading it. Figuring stuff out in a story is fun and engaging. Being told everything lecture style is much less so.

For instance, being told 'these islands float above clouds of poison gas' is a mildly intriguing datum. But "The road here passed near the Edge. Bob's stomach lurched uncomfortably. He had never liked heights. Sally, who had grown up along the coast, was well used to the Edge and the sharp smell of ammonia that always seeped up from the fumes below, smiled as his discomfort."

Interesting. Same information conveyed.

(Although it's perfectly possible to go way too far the other direction. This is why I'm a firm believer in the 'delete' key.)

[Weezer]

I'll say I'm a major sucker for being dumped into a new setting and being forced to figure out key things about the world as I go along, with maybe a bit of backstory in a 'prologue' type chapter, but not much besides that. Then you slowly reveal parts of the world, not in a "I've hidden this key bit of information and it's now shown in a dramatic twist", but in a more organic way.

[Kitten Champion]

Personally, when writing fantasy or SF I commit to a sort of thought experiment. I put myself into the shoes of a writer who's not writing speculative fiction about other worlds, time periods, or an alternate reality, but rather writing creative fiction from the perspective of a person in that world I imagined.

The same rules and assumptions I apply were I writing an adventure story in Europe, a romance in North America, or a coming of age story in Africa. I don't need to explain everyday terms the reader should already know, I needn't draw a map out or explain that different places have different cultures. There are details I can develop, descriptions to be made, ideas to be presented, esoteric information to be conveyed... but I'm going in assuming that I'm writing this for another person in the same reality and not an alien.

If I get too abstract (which I do) I can go back and edit in a bit more exposition, but I find people appreciate being able to decipher a world themselves.

[jseah]

Reading your guesses at the islands and the mist is quite interesting... if in a horrifying sort of way of what happens when explanations are incomplete. (but I won't bother infodumping the setting here since it doesn't matter for the discussion)


McStabbington:
The concept of "connected ideas that must be presented together" is great! Thanks alot for that.

I think there also exists groups that must be presented before other groups. The ideas that underlie alot of the world (modified humans and the islands + mist are two such groups of ideas) need to explained before the rest, and I guess this is what the prologue is for.


Kitten Champion:
It's quite interesting you say that but I do use that for the magic system since the system itself has too many fiddly bits to explain so I just don't bother. After all, it adds nothing to the story explain the various properties and quirks of a specific spell technique, repeat ~100 times.

The result is that I feel uncomfortable using magic to solve problems due to Sanderson's First Law. How can I have a spell used to take over other spells be used in a different form as a shield against pure magic attacks, but defeated by magically powered physical attacks, when the ability to put the same effect in different forms (moving vs non-moving, single target vs barrier) as well as the difference between magical and physical (a direct magical blast vs throwing a rock) isn't explained?

Well, that isn't so crucial for this story since there is only 1 major fight and the main character has a small army doing the actual fighting. Still, the magic system is also intimately tied to the magical devices that are omnipresent, detailed explanations already exist for most of them (including the floating islands and airships; there's at least three major classes of propulsion systems for airships, one of which is the islands' one but is too big to be useful)


Speaking of narrative infodumps, try this short story (http://www.gregstolze.com/fiction_library/TRANSMIT.pdf).Thanks for this, it was good!

It might be possible to use that style for the history part I guess. As a prologue section, it might work. (A style change from prologue to actual story is acceptable, less so at chapter 3)
Although I don't see a way to work in a historical section like that without ruining one of the plot threads.

[Kitten Champion]

Kitten Champion:
It's quite interesting you say that but I do use that for the magic system since the system itself has too many fiddly bits to explain so I just don't bother. After all, it adds nothing to the story explain the various properties and quirks of a specific spell technique, repeat ~100 times.

The result is that I feel uncomfortable using magic to solve problems due to Sanderson's First Law. How can I have a spell used to take over other spells be used in a different form as a shield against pure magic attacks, but defeated by magically powered physical attacks, when the ability to put the same effect in different forms (moving vs non-moving, single target vs barrier) as well as the difference between magical and physical (a direct magical blast vs throwing a rock) isn't explained?

Well, that isn't so crucial for this story since there is only 1 major fight and the main character has a small army doing the actual fighting. Still, the magic system is also intimately tied to the magical devices that are omnipresent, detailed explanations already exist for most of them (including the floating islands and airships; there's at least three major classes of propulsion systems for airships, one of which is the islands' one but is too big to be useful)

I've only attempted to develop a magic system twice.

One revolved around a protagonist who's a lower-ranked patent officer fresh out of school, in a world where magic is basically analogous to software with strict IP-laws. He wanted to be a spell designer, or magus, but ended up a lowly civil servant in a go-nowhere job, where he's desperately bored.

As a means of impressing upon the reader the lack of depth the main character actually has after having sacrificed a social life and a broader education in order to enter the most lucrative of positions in the magic industry (and failing thus far), he really doesn't have much about him besides an intimate knowledge of thaumaturgy and bland affability. So he overcompensates by talking about it constantly, often in manner too technical and dull to hold anything more than a polite audience for very long. He's sort of my play on a Dostoevsky character in a magical Tokyo, where magic is ubiquitous and miracles are kind of boring. The magic system itself was threaded into the science underlying the world, which was significant for various plot points and the conclusion.

The other system I decided to use was originally more of a Sanderson-esque deal like what you're attempting. People could eat their own dreams and vomit them out at the cost of insomnia for a night, with different dreams creating different effects and - well - it got difficult to follow even for me when I got into the minute details.

So, I decided to simplify things. The fiddly bits in my initial write up were a good guidepost for me to keep magic sane, but I had to remember it's not like I was creating an RPG here. I was mainly in it for the cool visual descriptions. I would say it was more similar to Diana Wynn Jones eventually. Magic clearly couldn't solve every problem judging by the state of its wielders, and it certainly created some of its own. In my story the main character spent much of the story reading the half-faded and nearly illegible writing of a tattered notebook outlining the risks and conditions of her magic, which she picked up near the beginning, and nearly half of it was inaccurate.


I guess, by the sounds of it your magic is something important to understanding the whole world in which it occurs like a physical law. Some exposition would be worth it especially if it has thematic significance (like equivalent exchange in Full Metal Alchemist). Although if you can show magic at work, and have the reader infer most of the rules themselves, it would be better. I have to say, the example you give does kind of have an eyes-glazing-over quality about it. I think if you could put it in more natural terms it could help. Like gravity, magnetism, or the five classical elements - just having an image in your head which you can liken it to is going makes it more effective. Tell me how it would look, maybe?

[MLai]

Thought experiment: If you take out ALL of the info-dump sections in your story, would the reader be able to understand your plot?
Maybe they won't be able to appreciate some finer points, or how much effort you spent fleshing out your world/rules... but would they be able to follow the plot?
If yes, then trim your info-dump to the minimum necessary. Any more than that, and no one cares.

[jseah]

Hmm, remove all the infodumps eh? Then alot of things end up being surprises/deus ex machinas. Or just plain unexplainable.

I suppose it will mostly make sense after the story is over provided the reader can be bothered to flip through the story to crossreference where each bit came in...
There's a small glossary of terms I have written in my planning...

Perhaps my plot hinges on too many small little details that can result in gotchas or clever workarounds if the characters actively try to use them.

RE magic:
I can't actually use simpler terms because a large part of the magic system affects magic. The spell that hijacks other spells allows the caster to control spells that are flying around (eg. an approaching fireball), and modify them on the fly to say, turn it around.

This is an effect of a spell, any effect can be attached onto shapes, like a wall or sphere instead of a moving ball. So a sphere that hijacks other spells surrounding the caster is essentially a shield that takes over all approaching spells and allows the caster to control them.

The catch being that if you throw something with magic or otherwise use some indirect effect, the thing isn't magical. A stone thrown with magic is just a fast stone that will break your leg and it'll go right through a spell-hijack based shield. Heat created by a fire spell isn't magical either and will happily cook you. (but the fire itself is a magical material)

[MLai]

I like Masamune Shirow's manga graphic novel Orion. The main character is an expert in Eastern mysticism that is depicted as super-sorcery in the manga.

Shirow info-dumps in the manga sometimes, regarding the workings of the sorcery involved. But he kind of does it as a tease because it only serves to confuse you further and to convince you that Eastern mysticism consists of equations Einstein wouldn't be able to follow. He does convey his plot, though. His character might say "This evil magic is bad news because it consists of [mysto-jargon that sounds indecipherably cool]", but at least you can understand that it's bad news.

If I have a point... it's that you don't have to prove to your readers that your magic system is internally consistent. You just have to sound cool while saying that it is. You might say "But I wasn't lazy like that! I did the research!" But the thing is readers don't want to hear about your great research. If the best thing about your story is your research then it has already failed.

[Aotrs Commander]

If I have a point... it's that you don't have to prove to your readers that your magic system is internally consistent. You just have to sound cool while saying that it is. You might say "But I wasn't lazy like that! I did the research!" But the thing is readers don't want to hear about your great research. If the best thing about your story is your research then it has already failed.

That very much depends on personal preference. The very fastest way to make me not care about a story is to not have internal consistency and background. Personally, I want to see the workings and I want to see that the author has actually sat down and bothered to think about something all the way through or has at the very, very least done some basic research1. (Doesn't matter if they don't make as good a job of it as they might, it's the effort that counts.) Cool for the sake of cool isn't cool at all, in my opinion.



1In my opinion, any writer that doesn't spend at least as much effort on their story's consistency and accuracy as I do in making a regular forum post and checking basic facts should not be doing the job or at least not get paid for it. Nowadays the internet provides an easy tool for doing this, so there's not really an excuse.

[jseah]

If I have a point... it's that you don't have to prove to your readers that your magic system is internally consistent. You just have to sound cool while saying that it is. You might say "But I wasn't lazy like that! I did the research!" But the thing is readers don't want to hear about your great research. If the best thing about your story is your research then it has already failed.
Mmm, yes. To be frank, this story doesn't rely on the magic system at all apart from at one specific part (which has the possibility of being reworked).
I just used it because I made this magic system over the period of multiple years and it's just there to be used when I have no better idea for one.

EDIT: this is to say that while magic is being used and any proposed system must explain the observed things, the actual minor bits of magic aren't important nor does the story have any thematic links to the magic. There's just a few major setting things that needs to happen, the rest is not important.

[MLai]

That very much depends on personal preference. The very fastest way to make me not care about a story is to not have internal consistency and background. Personally, I want to see the workings and I want to see that the author has actually sat down and bothered to think about something all the way through or has at the very, very least done some basic research1. (Doesn't matter if they don't make as good a job of it as they might, it's the effort that counts.) Cool for the sake of cool isn't cool at all, in my opinion.
While that is valid, and is also my stance (refer to my hatred of Oblivion because of its stupid science)... your great research should always be conveyed to the reader via story rather than info-dump i.e. wall o' text.
Previous posts had already listed ways to explain stuff in-story. If you find you can't do it that way for some sections, then you probably need to trim it down.

[Traab]

My vote for avoiding the infodump is to break it all up. Instead of going into a detailed exposition of everything about the world you developed, have it come up from time to time in small chunks and get explained.

"Im heading down to the surface."

"What?! You cant go down there! The poisonous mist hasnt faded in the 200 years its been there since the accident!"

You dont have to go into the full history of the world. Later on you can write in a scene where the subject of WHY the ground is covered in poisonous mist is explained. By giving us the info in bits and pieces we dont get overwhelmed at any one time with 60 pages of world building.

[jseah]

So I guess the summary is like this:
- If possible, show it through the eyes of a character doing something (eg. living daily life, good for showing off the setting); use infodumps rarely and make it short
- Group related concepts and show them together, start with the basic ones involving how the world works, and description of the geography
- Give only the minimum required to make the world understandable, the rest will sort itself out as the story progresses
- Break up the related chunks as introduce them as they become relevant/convenient to do so

Good ideas all, I'll think about how to rewrite the prologue and opening chapters.


"What?! You cant go down there! The poisonous mist hasnt faded in the 200 years its been there since the accident!"
I find it very interesting that we have assumed it is a poisonous mist. While it is true that I did not elaborate beyond 'deadly mist', it shows how readers will fill in the gaps by themselves.

Is there any sort of pattern at all to that? Should I be mindful of how readers will fill in the gaps automagically? (gaps which I, as author, find very hard to see no matter how much I know they are there)

[Aotrs Commander]

While that is valid, and is also my stance (refer to my hatred of Oblivion because of its stupid science)... your great research should always be conveyed to the reader via story rather than info-dump i.e. wall o' text.
Previous posts had already listed ways to explain stuff in-story. If you find you can't do it that way for some sections, then you probably need to trim it down.

I am a personal fan of the method of using fictional history books used as a explanatory material written by some scholar or even from the point of view of some historian of some nebulous future time. (My arguable favourite book - and certainly the one most influential on life and unlife - Spacecraft 2000-2100AD was basically just that.) It's how I do all my campaign material.

And of course, there's always the old adage of "isolated/transplanted dude/dudette who knows nothing of the ways of the world" used a character to exposition to. It's a hoary old chestnut, but there's a reason for that. See Belgariad, Harry Potter and "human from modern time goes into sci-fi/fantasy", several Mercedes Lackey series ir Skullduggery Plesant to name a handful off the top of my head. Hell, 1990s X-Men used Jubilee in that role and you can even make a case for Proper Avatar, since Aang sometimes needed thing explaining to him as well. Even Naruto and Pokemon did that with their lead characters (which was partly why they started off as such lovable complete idiots!)

Like That Site says, tropes are tropes for a reason and it's not always bad!

That's probably one of the most natural ways to do it (or a variation of same, where you could have knowledgable Protagonist explaining it to some village child or something.)

[jseah]

More magic: (Aotrs Commander)

That very much depends on personal preference. The very fastest way to make me not care about a story is to not have internal consistency and background. Personally, I want to see the workings and I want to see that the author has actually sat down and bothered to think about something all the way through or has at the very, very least done some basic research1. (Doesn't matter if they don't make as good a job of it as they might, it's the effort that counts.) Cool for the sake of cool isn't cool at all, in my opinion.When you say consistency and I say consistency, I think we mean different things (judging from your later posts). When I was creating the magic system's fundamentals, I built a base from fundamental laws (like elemental particles and conservation laws) and extrapolated interactions from there (tweaking variables along the way to make it useful for my purposes), so the usual sort of consistency is more or less baked into the system.
That meant throwing away everything that made magic break information, all but the most basic divinations, anything to do with life/death, no 'smart' criteria that required non-physical information (eg. hits only lawful people). In my experience, those things are the main culprits for generating inconsistencies.
EDIT: also themes. I had to get rid of that too. In some senses, the world and story is built on top of the magic system, rather than the magic system being bent to fit the story.


Consistency, to me, has now come to mean something like... everything has an explanation. You can ask any question in particular and the answer must be extrapolatable from known information, and the explanation must have predictive power.
"Why didn't they just fly the ring to Mordor?" is not satisfactorily explained by this metric, the usual explanation of Sauron and cronies watching results in a different question of why they didn't fly the ring *most of the way* to Mordor. Or at least from a better angle than his bloody front gate (IIRC the east side didn't have mountains)

EDIT: the catch of course is that predictive power is hard to come by and most trivial questions will have trivial answers. If you built your magic system at a certain resolution, that's usually as low as it will go, it is very VERY hard to backfill explanations for a question asked at a "lower level" than what you started out with.

[Barsoom]

My vote for avoiding the infodump is to break it all up. Instead of going into a detailed exposition of everything about the world you developed, have it come up from time to time in small chunks and get explained.

"Im heading down to the surface."

"What?! You cant go down there! The poisonous mist hasnt faded in the 200 years its been there since the accident!"Problem is, it doesn't sound natural. Real people don't speak like that. If you tell someone "I'm going to Chernobyl!", are they going to respond, "Are you nuts? The radioactivity hasn't faded in the almost 30 years it's been since the accident!"? Unlikely. Probably, they'll just say "Are you nuts!?", since the existance of radioactivity in Chernobyl is well known in the context of this world. If something is assumed to be well-known in the [real or fictional] world, people won't tend to repeat it.

[Traab]

Problem is, it doesn't sound natural. Real people don't speak like that. If you tell someone "I'm going to Chernobyl!", are they going to respond, "Are you nuts? The radioactivity hasn't faded in the almost 30 years it's been since the accident!"? Unlikely. Probably, they'll just say "Are you nuts!?", since the existance of radioactivity in Chernobyl is well known in the context of this world. If something is assumed to be well-known in the [real or fictional] world, people won't tend to repeat it.

The example wasnt meant to be taken literally, just as a way to give out a piece of the information needed without having to read an essay on the history of the world before the story can start. It could have been something as simple as, (once again totally random here) "Ok, dont forget everyone down there has an extra thumb, so bring along your prosthetic so you can blend in." You dont have to regurgitate the entire history of these people and why they developed differently right there. A little here, a little there, as the information becomes relevant it can be shared.

[Forbiddenwar]

Cast "Summon Exposition Fairy"
An exposition fairy is a character in the temporary or permanent role to give information in the form of dialogue, by asking or answering question, or through demonstration. Mist is deadly? Kill someone with it.
Whoops, looks like others have already mentioned the fairy.
It may seem unnatural, but that's all in the execution.

Also, don't underestimate the power of confusion and gaps. Give the reader a chance to fill gaps aid keeping them engaged in the story. This is similar to don't say anything important unless it is vitally important in the next three pages. Spelling everything out clearly so there's absolutely no chance of misinterpretation leads to a very dull reading experience.
For example:


I cannot introduce the family's test for TP episodes until a basic explanation of modified humans and bloodlines is understood
Why not introduce something strange and without exposition? Let the reader be confused. he/she will fill the gap and adjust it later when new information is presented. We humans do this every day! As long as the story is compelling, it doesn't matter the order you present information.

[warty goblin]

Why not introduce something strange and without exposition? Let the reader be confused. he/she will fill the gap and adjust it later when new information is presented. We humans do this every day! As long as the story is compelling, it doesn't matter the order you present information.

Actually, please do introduce something strange without exposition. One of my recurring issues with modern fantasy and science fiction is the need of their authors to bludgeon both text and audience into a lifeless stupor with displays of 'world-building.' I like it when when weird things happen which aren't explained until later; if at all.


Don't get me wrong, world-building is necessary for sci/fi or fantasy stories, and can be a lot of fun to do. In a narrative it's absolutely tedious to read in undiluted form.

[Ravens_cry]

I like the idea of, especially in military science fiction, some kind of class or briefing. A common character in science fiction or fantasy is the outsider to whom things must be explained.
Sometimes though, sometimes you just need a straight info dump. Some things can be delivered through straight narrative, but its tricky and can sometimes come off as worse than simply laying it all out.

[jseah]

Why not introduce something strange and without exposition? Let the reader be confused. he/she will fill the gap and adjust it later when new information is presented. We humans do this every day! As long as the story is compelling, it doesn't matter the order you present information.
The family test is a major plot point very close to the start that has a major impact on the 2nd main character and sets the tone of her background. It is a test of bloodline purity because only part-human-part-modified people are susceptible to TP episodes and is the only reliable test apart from doing actual biology.
TP episodes themselves are a major point in explaining the social situation and a driver for racism against modified humans.

At present, the TP episodes are mentioned, but not explained. The test has a scene in which it happens. I can't find a convenient spot to explain that pure human or pure modified humans are immune.

I have a number of actual TP episodes lined up to happen in order to demonstrate how each side reacts to it, followed by it happening to the main character. Explaining what TP episodes are here is fine, but the fact that pure modified human bloodlines are so rare (only 2 in the whole setting, one of whom isn't well known) means that modified humans = TP episode risk is a fact of life that "everyone knows".

[Mx.Silver]

As others of said, you need to remember that your narrative is key here and exposition needs to be handled accordingly. The general of rule of show rather than tell is always good to keep in mind.



Yet I can't leave out the information until too late. You don't want readers to wonder why the central powerful entity didn't go after the main character only to go "oh that's why" two chapters later when you finally get around to giving their rivals air time.
Actually, I'd say you probably do want that. "Oh, that's why" is not a bad reaction to generate, and it also flows more naturally into the pacing. Note that leaving stuff unexplained is also a good way to engage the reader's curiosity.



The family test is a major plot point very close to the start that has a major impact on the 2nd main character and sets the tone of her background. It is a test of bloodline purity because only part-human-part-modified people are susceptible to TP episodes and is the only reliable test apart from doing actual biology.
TP episodes themselves are a major point in explaining the social situation and a driver for racism against modified humans.

At present, the TP episodes are mentioned, but not explained. The test has a scene in which it happens. I can't find a convenient spot to explain that pure human or pure modified humans are immune.

I have a number of actual TP episodes lined up to happen in order to demonstrate how each side reacts to it, followed by it happening to the main character. Explaining what TP episodes are here is fine, but the fact that pure modified human bloodlines are so rare (only 2 in the whole setting, one of whom isn't well known) means that modified humans = TP episode risk is a fact of life that "everyone knows".

I'm assuming it's the fact that pure modifieds are immune that's giving you trouble, yes? If so, just don't mention it until it actually becomes relevant. Such as around the time a pure-strain individual is introduced, or is revealed as one (e.g. doesn't trigger where they 'should'; gets out of discriminatory policies that an 'impure' modified couldn't, etc). If they are rare to the point that they're not common knowledge, then I'm curious why the reader needs to know about it very early on. If it needs to be foreshadowed before any on-screen relevance, then you've essentially got everywhere between establishing TP and purebreed immunity becoming relevant to mention it.




I find it very interesting that we have assumed it is a poisonous mist. While it is true that I did not elaborate beyond 'deadly mist', it shows how readers will fill in the gaps by themselves.

Is there any sort of pattern at all to that? Should I be mindful of how readers will fill in the gaps automagically? (gaps which I, as author, find very hard to see no matter how much I know they are there)
It's only something you need to be mindful of if it's on something where the correct filling, as it were, is unintuitive. For instance, in the case of deadly mist, people are probably going to assume 'poisonous' because clouds of poisonous gas are reasonably well-known things. If it's deadly because it, say, magically turns people into zombies that's not going to be something that immediately occurs to people.

Generally though it's not something you should worry too much about. Provided you haven't done anything to suggest it's something other than what it turns out to be, most readers won't have much adjusting should they have assumed incorrectly.

[jseah]

I'll keep that in mind. It would obviously not be too late to write the story first and insert infodumps later for whatever needs it. If it flows better without an explanation, I'll keep it mysterious. =D


If they are rare to the point that they're not common knowledge, then I'm curious why the reader needs to know about it very early on. If it needs to be foreshadowed before any on-screen relevance, then you've essentially got everywhere between establishing TP and purebreed immunity becoming relevant to mention it.
One of the main characters is from the family and is a pure breed (the one other main character goes through a TP episode is half), she underwent the test in her childhood and this scene is one of the key scenes that sets the tone of her character (and to a large extent the story too). It happens almost right out of the prologue.

TP immunity isn't important anymore after that until the end of the first part where a drug that induces TP episodes can cause TP in pure breeds (although this isn't a plot critical point but more a character development opportunity). And apart from this one time, TP immunity is never again an issue.

[Ravens_cry]

Eh, in these here parts, TP is short for 'toilet paper'. Little bit of giggle factor there.

[jseah]

Eh, in these here parts, TP is short for 'toilet paper'. Little bit of giggle factor there.
Hehe, random acronyms always fall afoul of things like this.

[MLai]

Flashbacks, whether character-induced or narrator-induced, is never a problem. In fact an entire story can be told in flashbacks.
Especially useful because FBs can do away with dull transition scenes, and just jump between dramatic/epic scenes.

[warty goblin]

Flashbacks, whether character-induced or narrator-induced, is never a problem. In fact an entire story can be told in flashbacks.
Especially useful because FBs can do away with dull transition scenes, and just jump between dramatic/epic scenes.

Transition scenes are the bits that give a story its pacing, which is to say what makes it enjoyable. Cutting them out entirely is seldom a good idea.

[MLai]

Transition scenes are the bits that give a story its pacing, which is to say what makes it enjoyable. Cutting them out entirely is seldom a good idea.
FBs do not exist without the "meanwhile" and "today" scenes giving it narrative context, so you don't have to worry about that.
I don't watch Bollywood movies, so I'm unfamiliar with how to mess up flashback and transition scenes so that they defy common sense. I've heard it done spectacularly; I'm sure it's possible. :smallbiggrin:

[Ravens_cry]

Transition scenes are the bits that give a story its pacing, which is to say what makes it enjoyable. Cutting them out entirely is seldom a good idea.
I agree. You need moments of silence and quiet to heighten the emotional impact of the 'epic' parts.
After all, music without silence is just noise, and an image without contrast is simply mush. You also need emotional contrast in order make it so people can care. All Epic, All The Time is exhausting at best.

Hehe, random acronyms always fall afoul of things like this.

And it is our duty to eliminate such waste.

[jseah]

And it is our duty to eliminate such waste.At least my acronyms actually mean something... (TP = Tezmon Aphenasia Paradox; Tezmon is the name of the researcher who characterized it, Aphenasia is a medical condition for the loss of control over when to use magic, it was a paradox at the time because there was only one form of Aphenasia until humans and modified humans started to interbreed)

[Ravens_cry]

At least my acronyms actually mean something... (TP = Tezmon Aphenasia Paradox; Tezmon is the name of the researcher who characterized it, Aphenasia is a medical condition for the loss of control over when to use magic, it was a paradox at the time because there was only one form of Aphenasia until humans and modified humans started to interbreed)

Couldn't it be TAP then, or, perhaps, AP?

[jseah]

Couldn't it be TAP then, or, perhaps, AP?It could be. I just chose TP because it was short and rolled off the tongue.

[Ravens_cry]

It could be. I just chose TP because it was short and rolled off the tongue.
Rolled, yes. Also, how is AP or even TAP (especially if you say it as an acronym rather than an initialism) longer? Giggle factor can be surprisingly important.

[jseah]

Rolled, yes. Also, how is AP or even TAP (especially if you say it as an acronym rather than an initialism) longer? Giggle factor can be surprisingly important.
Fair enough. I'll think about it. TAP sounds like the three letters in my head so I'll likely go with AP if I change it.

[MLai]

What's wrong with TAP? People love acronyms which spell a word. Especially the professionals who termed the jargon.

[Mx.Silver]

One of the main characters is from the family and is a pure breed (the one other main character goes through a TP episode is half), she underwent the test in her childhood and this scene is one of the key scenes that sets the tone of her character (and to a large extent the story too). It happens almost right out of the prologue.
So is she aware that she's a purebreed (presumably she already knows she's immune) then? Because if so it doesn't seem to all that difficult to work the fact 'pruebreeds are immune' into this sort of situation on the face of it. Or failing that, at least in some discussion of the test or episodes in general. What is it specifically about the scene that's giving you this trouble?



At least my acronyms actually mean something... (TP = Tezmon Aphenasia Paradox; Tezmon is the name of the researcher who characterized it, Aphenasia is a medical condition for the loss of control over when to use magic, it was a paradox at the time because there was only one form of Aphenasia until humans and modified humans started to interbreed)

I'd suggest dropping the 'paradox' if the naming is causing a problem. Mainly this is because it's not actually a paradox - at least in as far as how the term is used in biological science - it's a new form of an existing medical condition. 'Syndrome' seems a far more likely word to be used and 'disease' is also a possibility as both of these are more in keeping with the relevant scientific nomenclature.
You could also drop the third word entirely and just go with 'Tezmon's Aphenasia' (ala 'Bell's Palsy') if you'd rather.

[jseah]

The test involves a deliberate deception of the character by everyone involved as psychological stress is the main way TP episodes happen. (I am considering TA as the new acronym) They aren't told until after the test, pass or fail.

The problem here is that the after-test scene involves the character being anaesthetized and it's from the POV of her mother to the two branch family members involved in the test about risking her daughter's life. It already drops a hint about the character's dead sister and her mother's attitude towards the test and the family's duty. It is said in the scene that her mother was going to tell her about the test afterwards.

[MLai]

I second that the word "paradox" is never used in biology, biochemistry, or physiology.
Unless math or physics is somehow related to this medical condition, best to make it TA.

[warty goblin]

I second that the word "paradox" is never used in biology, biochemistry, or physiology.
Unless math or physics is somehow related to this medical condition, best to make it TA.

And even in math, paradox is most frequently used to mean 'this proof is now done, we out.'

[jseah]

I've decided to replace TP with Tezmon's Aphenasia or TA. TA syndrome is the noun referring to it in general, when it's referring to a single person, it's a TA episode.

[Ravens_cry]

Heck, many people would commonly call it Tezmon's, just like we say Parkinson's to to refer to Parkinson's disease.

[Mx.Silver]

The problem here is that the after-test scene involves the character being anaesthetized and it's from the POV of her mother to the two branch family members involved in the test about risking her daughter's life. It already drops a hint about the character's dead sister and her mother's attitude towards the test and the family's duty. It is said in the scene that her mother was going to tell her about the test afterwards.
How about one of the family raising the purebreed immunity as a criticism to performing this test? The necessity of said test is something you're going to have to address anyway so it seems reasonable to get both out of the way now. From an in-story perspective, it seems the sort of thing that would be likely to be brought up anyway, at least by anyone objecting to putting a kid through it when it's (presumably) already obvious said child is immune.



Heck, many people would commonly call it Tezmon's, just like we say Parkinson's to to refer to Parkinson's disease.

On the other hand, Bell's Palsy isn't generally referred to as a "Bell's" so you could really go either way on this.

[Grinner]

On the other hand, Bell's Palsy isn't generally referred to as a "Bell's" so you could really go either way on this.

I'd say it depends on the name. In a name like "Parkinson's disease", "Parkinson's" is the most unusual part, the defining element. Palsy, on the other hand, is a fairly unusual word, so it's not unreasonable to refer to the disease as such.

[Ravens_cry]

I'd say it depends on the name. In a name like "Parkinson's disease", "Parkinson's" is the most unusual part, the defining element. Palsy, on the other hand, is a fairly unusual word, so it's not unreasonable to refer to the disease as such.
Not to mention that Bell is both a common word and the name of someone famous for other things.

[jseah]

How about one of the family raising the purebreed immunity as a criticism to performing this test? The necessity of said test is something you're going to have to address anyway so it seems reasonable to get both out of the way now. From an in-story perspective, it seems the sort of thing that would be likely to be brought up anyway, at least by anyone objecting to putting a kid through it when it's (presumably) already obvious said child is immune.
Um, but that was the whole point, the Test verifies the child's immunity. For complicated reasons, the family has to be absolutely sure of it. Not just from the mother saying she was faithful and they don't understand genetics anymore.

I guess I could still have the conversation, although it is something they are all expected to "just know" unless they're test candidates, everyone has a first time.

The family is more or less directly responsible for the continued existence of the world as they know it and they have to do their thing with a specific magical device.

They cannot, absolutely cannot take any chances with the device whatsoever since no one knows how to make a new one (part of the thing they do stops it from breaking down and can repair minor problems; problem is that they don't even understand their own spells). If anyone goes into TA near it, it could be irreversibly damaged and the everyone gets eaten by the deadly mist.
--- more pure blooded someone is, the harder it is to have a TA episode. So they can and do settle for a threshold level of "hard to induce TA"-ness and call that pureblooded (which is high enough that it essentially means the same thing)
--- and getting rid of the mist is a harder problem than making a new device. There are no easy answers.

They are very very serious about squishing any possibility of it happening. For one thing, it exists on its own private floating island with the entire population there dedicated to making it safe. And well, what remains of the known world all know about the family and their role; they have an MAD protection to end all MAD protections. (if anyone even so much as disturbs us, we all die, so you won't)

The flaw in the plan being that they're running out of pure-blood family members to run the thing which is about to become a really big problem as they have to lower their thesholds and that runs all the obvious risks.


That said, they're not quite immune to threats like blackmail by suicidally depressed runaway almost-pure family members. As they find out in the story. >.>