Kirk vs. Picard

[open_source.exe]

I prophesized that someone would make a poll on this eventually.
I fufilled my own prophecy.


Go Kirk!

[Flak_Razorwill]

Kirk PWNS for an adventure kind of scenario, but Picard is best at a more cerebral apporach. Kirk could whale on a Klingon, but Picard could outthink him and take his money. Put them together...

[Jerthanis]

I put Picard, since he's the type of captain I'd trust to lead personell. Kirk may have swashbuckling charm, and knowledge of military tactics in that way that he wins battles he has no right to because the script says he does, but Picard has a more commanding aura and a greater sense of responsibility to his crew. He's less likely to get distracted by a blue skinned alien woman and allow his friends and ship to be put in danger because of it.

Not that I don't like Kirk, but if I were the helm officer under each one, and they asked me to do something that seemed suicidal, I'd trust Picard more with my life, which would allow me the morale and focus I'd need to do whatever he needed of me.

[TinSoldier]

What Jerthanis said.

As a veteran myself, Picard was far more believable as a real military officer. Kirk was, as Jerthanis said, more of a swashbuckler than a real military man.

[smellie_hippie]

I voted for both.

Kirk, while he may have been a swashbuckler, had the physical capacity to fist-a-cuffs for his crew. Don't you remember the gymnastic battles with Klingons, or better yet, the double-fisted backhand? He inspired his crew through leading from the front lines.

Picard on the other hand, as was previously noted, was the more intellectual leader. Picard inspired by doing what was best or right, and not "following his gut".

I was posed with the question once in regards to this very debate. "Is it more important to worry about the safety of your crew or your ship?" I still have not found which captain embodies either of these perspectives more fully.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Not that I don't like Kirk, but if I were the helm officer under each one, and they asked me to do something that seemed suicidal, I'd trust Picard more with my life, which would allow me the morale and focus I'd need to do whatever he needed of me.
Actually, if I were the helm officer, specifically, I'd prefer Kirk's leadership. Conn officers were the new redshirts in TNG, for some reason.

Overall, I'd call Picard the better leader/captain, Kirk the better fighter, Picard smarter, and Kirk more charismatic. It's tough to choose who I "like" better.

[ZombieRockStar]

I only voted Picard as slightly better...of the two. I find this poll suspect if it refuses to acknowledge that at least a few of us think that Sisko is the best of all of them.

[Korith]

I give it to Kirk. Not to say Picard isn't amazing in his own way, but when you take away the ships and the crews...Kirk has it hands-down.

That, and
Picard (http://fanhq.com/TCG/Card.aspx?gameID=8&cardID=430)
Kirk (http://startrekccg.fanhq.com/TCG/Card.aspx?gameID=8&cardID=6446)

See? Kirk has better Integrity -AND- title!

Furthermore, Googlefight (http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=Kirk&word2=Picard) says Kirk, too!

[Jerthanis]

I only voted Picard as slightly better...of the two. I find this poll suspect if it refuses to acknowledge that at least a few of us think that Sisko is the best of all of them.

While I do agree that Sisko was the best commander/captain in Star Trek (partly because DS9 was almost entirely character driven, while TOS and TNG were mostly plot/morality tale driven) I have no specific objections with a Kirk Vs. Picard thread because it's a debate that's raged since the beginning of TNG, and the two men represent somewhat of the most dichotimous of choices, made by people who like both sources.

Although the phrasing of this particular poll does seem suspect. People sometimes answer polls differently based on the way questions are asked. For example, someone might hate the expression "FTW" and because of that, purposefully answer more strongly in favor of Picard, since the creator of the thread is obviously in favor of Kirk based on the way the questions are asked. Also, phrasing the 'neither' vote as the (wierdo choice) is a charged word and definately affects the answer people give.



That, and
Picard (http://fanhq.com/TCG/Card.aspx?gameID=8&cardID=430)
Kirk (http://startrekccg.fanhq.com/TCG/Card.aspx?gameID=8&cardID=6446)

See? Kirk has better Integrity -AND- title!

Furthermore, Googlefight (http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=Kirk&word2=Picard) says Kirk, too!

Waittaminute, The linked cards lists Picard as having a better Integrity AND a better strength score, with equal Cunning. I don't know this card game very well, so maybe low numbers are better though, and it seems like Picard's ability is more useful too.

[ZombieRockStar]

I know...I just needed to express my love for Sisko that was not an option on the poll. In the traditional debate, Picard is the clear winner for me. Definitely the guy I'd prefer to follow. Or know, for that matter.

[SpoonlessJedi]

If you look at Kirk and Picard from a strict career standpoint, Kirk had Picard beat, hands-down. Kirk was the captain of the Federation flagship, the USS Enterprise, in his early thirties, while Picard was nearly sixty before he achieved such an honor.

If you compare the captains from a leadership standpoint, Kirk trumps Picard again. Kirk had a strong, intimidating demeanor that applied both amongst his crew and when dealing with alien spacecraft. Picard, attempting diplomacy, had a weaker image. His crew never hesitated to question his judgement and his opponents knew he would hesitate to use deadly force, even if it were the best course of action to take. Kirk also led his men on away missions, risking his own life along with theirs. He was never content to sit safely on the bridge while ensigns did all the dirty work. Picard, however, drank his Earl Grey in the comfort of his ready room while waiting for status reports.

If you compare the two on a basis of crew selection, Kirk pimp-slaps Picard upside the head, then laughs, because his first officer is a nigh-unstoppable Vulcan who can die, respawn, and still direct multiple movies while always giving good, logical advice (but only when Kirk wanted it). Picard's first officer was an arrogant Kirk-knock-off whose biggest accomplishment was gaining thirty pounds over the course of the series and giving emotionally flawed advice at the worst possible times, sometimes undermining the captain's authority. Picard put up with this. Kirk would have pimp-slapped Riker as well.

If you comprare Kirk and Picard based on their hair... we all know who wins.

I think Kirk just pwn3d.

[Beleriphon]

I think Kirk just pwn3d.

Ah, but if Kirk and Picard were to fight who would win? I say Picard. He doesn't rely on some bizarre combo of alien wrestling, two-handed back smashing (usually), and the Marquis of Queensbury Rules of Pugilism to win. Picard actually gets in there and messes people up. The man took a knife to the heart from a group of Nausicans!

[ZombieRockStar]

I give it to Kirk. Not to say Picard isn't amazing in his own way, but when you take away the ships and the crews...Kirk has it hands-down.

That, and
Picard (http://fanhq.com/TCG/Card.aspx?gameID=8&cardID=430)
Kirk (http://startrekccg.fanhq.com/TCG/Card.aspx?gameID=8&cardID=6446)

See? Kirk has better Integrity -AND- title!

Furthermore, Googlefight (http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=Kirk&word2=Picard) says Kirk, too!


Don't make me drag the actors into this. (http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=William+Shatner&word2=Patrick+Stewart)

[Logic]

Being in the military, I would pick the captain that lost less people under his command.
Picard.

[Doglord]

Ill probably be hunted down and killed but... Picard

[The_Librarian]

Picard, absolutely. He wasn't easily distracted by any alien babes, the banter between him and Q always cracked me up, and
He was much more good looking.

[Death, your friend the Reaper]

I picked the last one due to the fact I have never watched a single episode through...

I did once watch 5 mins of one and saw someoen play the game.

*Increase star trek cred*

[Eldpollard]

I'd have to go for Picard, as Patrick Stewart is from my home town of Mirfield.

[Timberwolf]

Sorry but it's Picard, all the way. He lost the least, plus he's British and Patrick Stewart is a: a particularly fine Shakesperean actor and b: has never stooped to writing books where his is the main character and c: isn't responsible the the huge amount of really bad adverts on british TV,

[Saithis Bladewing]

Did Picard rip his shirt fighting onboard the alien ship to the sounds of dramatic 60's sci fi battle music shortly before doing the chief alien's wife in every episode?

No?

Kirk forever.


Picard's first officer was an arrogant Kirk-knock-off whose biggest accomplishment was gaining thirty pounds over the course of the series and giving emotionally flawed advice at the worst possible times, sometimes undermining the captain's authority.

You forgot about growing a beard and learning to play the trumpet. ;)

I also agree with some previous commenters over the fact that Sisko was the best captain of the series. By far the most realistic and the best leader.

[Logic]

I also agree with some previous commenters over the fact that Sisko was the best captain of the series. By far the most realistic and the best leader.
I agree, however, I chose to stay completely on topic and keep it only Kirk vs Picard.
If someone however, were to start up a Sisko vs Janeway poll, do you honestly think that Janeway would get any decent percentage of votes?

[Jack Squat]

Sorry but it's Picard, all the way. He lost the least, plus he's British and Patrick Stewart is a: a particularly fine Shakesperean actor and b: has never stooped to writing books where his is the main character and c: isn't responsible the the huge amount of really bad adverts on british TV,

You know, Shatner was a professional Shakespearean actor too...

[Flame_Drake]

I agree, however, I chose to stay completely on topic and keep it only Kirk vs Picard.
If someone however, were to start up a Sisko vs Janeway poll, do you honestly think that Janeway would get any decent percentage of votes?
Do you think she would get any votes? I say that that Sisko and Picard are even, Kirk is below them, Archer's a bit below them and Janeway's somewhere in the sewers being assimilated by the Borg.

Drake

[Beleriphon]

You know, Shatner was a professional Shakespearean actor too...

He was also beat up by my grandmother when he was in university.

[Reiku]

Picard, hands down.

Because Kirk never picked a fight with a gang of surly Nausicans, got stabbed through the heart, and laughed as he went down in a pool of his own blood.

[Diakos]

I prefer Picard, i allways hoped Kirk would get some slow painfull flesheating alien V.D.

[SlyJohnny]

Picard.

And Picard ain't a weakling, either- he may not choose to handle EVERY problem by wrestling with it in the sand, but he can handle himself very well in a fist fight.

[SpoonlessJedi]

Picard, absolutely...and
He was much more good looking.

Dear Roddenberry! You prefer a sixty-something-year-old bald Frenchman with an unexplainable English accent over a shiny-combat-boot-wearing, thirty-year-old ladies' man who can beat a Vulcan at chess... and has hair!?

To each his own, I suppose.


Do you think she would get any votes? I say that that Sisko and Picard are even, Kirk is below them, Archer's a bit below them and Janeway's somewhere in the sewers being assimilated by the Borg.

What!? Archer over Janeway?! Janeway represents a monumental milestone in womens' liberation. Even in the twenty-third century and beyond, females in top command positions are few and far between. Janeway is a feminist icon, both in the Star Trek universe and in our own world, making history and inspiring us all. And she liked coffee.

[TinSoldier]

What!? Archer over Janeway?! Janeway represents a monumental milestone in womens' liberation. Even in the twenty-third century and beyond, females in top command positions are few and far between. Janeway is a feminist icon, both in the Star Trek universe and in our own world, making history and inspiring us all. And she liked coffee.I'm not very familiar with Sisko (having not watched DS9 very much) but I liked Janeway very much. I am surprised at the negativity towards her in various forums.

Honor Harrington is better, of course, even if liking coffee is the only point that Janeway has over her.

[ZombieRockStar]

Ditto. I thought Janeway was very good. It was the rest of the crew that brought Voyager down. And I never watched more than 1 episode of Enterprise.

[BlueWizard]

I'll admit it I was on the both-line, but my wife convinced me Picard has the edge!

[MrsbwcMD]

Picard all the way for me! There's just something about him that makes him so...I don't know. Maybe it's his accent. Maybe it's his no-nonsense attitude. I just always loved watching him captain that ship!

[Nerd-o-rama]

Dear Roddenberry! You prefer a sixty-something-year-old bald Frenchman with an unexplainable English accent over a shiny-combat-boot-wearing, thirty-year-old ladies' man who can beat a Vulcan at chess... and has hair!?
That last point's debatable.

[Logic]

This is what may get me stoned for heresy:

Enterprise was easier to watch than The Original Series.

[wxdruid]

Picard is simply better looking than Kirk and has a better command presence.

Picard

[Veedrix]

First off, Shatner hates Star Treck.
Second, Picard is slightly better by such marginal means it's almost un-noticeable.
Third. Archer sucked the most of any Star Treck Captain, even geust spots were better written/cast than him.
Fourth Janeway is the Woman. Just the whole "Call me ma'am" thing set the tone.

That being said, when does this debate fall to the 2nd in command? Riker? Spak? Chakote? Whoever the crap it was for Enterprise?

And what about Sisco or all of DS9?

Lastly, don't rag on the spelling, I know I didn't get any of the 2nd in commands names spelled right.

[SpoonlessJedi]

That last point's debatable.

I'll clarify: when he was originally the captain in the 1960's, he had hair. Once the Motion Picture Series was spawned, Kirk lost all possible sexiness.



That being said, when does this debate fall to the 2nd in command? Riker? Spak? Chakote? Whoever the crap it was for Enterprise?


Spock, of course, pwns all. Riker was simply a knock-off of Kirk who didn't have the balls to seduce Troi (at least during the run of the series). Kira takes a distant second simply because of her commanding attitude and incredibly amusing relationship with Odo. Chakotay and T'Pol just got on my nerves.

If we want to get REALLY technical, Data was the first officer on the USS Enterprise-E during Nemesis, but did not fulfill his duties because the newlywed Riker was on board. If we count Data as a first officer, he kicks Spock's pointy-eared ass into the ground.

Hm... perhaps this will spark a "Spock vs Data" thread...

[Nerd-o-rama]

Now that you bring that up Data, it occurs to me that Insurrection, as bad a movie as it was, did wonders for him and Picard in my books.

"A British tar is a soooooaring soul..."

Let's see Spock do Gilbert & Sullivan. Or Kirk mambo.

[ZombieRockStar]

Let's see Spock do Gilbert & Sullivan. Or Kirk mambo.

You haven't seen the fifth movie, have you?

"Row, row, row your boat..."

I apologize for reminding everybody that the fifth movie actually existed. Here is some acid for us to soak our brains with.

[Deepblue706]

I can't decide if whether or not I like Kirk or Picard more. Both are awesome in numerous ways.

But, I enjoyed TNG more than any other series.

DS9? I really can't see why so many people enjoyed that one. Sisko was kinda lame, if you ask me. Plus, he punched Q, and for that I can never forgive him.

"PICARD never hit me!"

But, while DS9 wasn't the best, it wasn't as bad as Voyager - which was kinda terrible.

Yeah...I really can't decide. So I'll just say I voted for Q, despite him not really being a captain, or anything. He has an IQ of 2,005 and that's all that matters.

[Korith]

I apologize for reminding everybody that the fifth movie actually existed. Here is some acid for us to soak our brains with.

*SPLASH!*

Ahh.....

Wait, this is spring water! ZOMBIE!!!!

I'm still holding out for Kirk. When I used the card game example, I couldn't find the version of Kirk that beats everyone in hand-to-hand combat, so I had to settle for pathetic Kirk.

*Queues up Shatner's performance of "Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds"*

[purple gelatinous cube o' Doom]

Personally, out of those two, I would definitely choose Picard over Kirk any day. Seems to me Picard commands and gets respect from those around him much more than Kirk did. picard is a smarter leader that Kirk, and not nearly as headstrong. But, much more stubborn/set in his ways. Picard uses his conscience, morals and judgement more than Kirk, who ran into a lot of situations quite blindly. But, I think the one thing that puts Picard back at times, is that conscience. Where as Sisko did what needed to be done to prove a point and get the job done, whatever the cost. Like the time he destroyed a planet with a Maqui settlement on it, and was prepared to destoy more to get the ex starfleet officer/current Maqui leader to surrender. Picard would never have done that. So you at least have to give Sisko credit for having some serious guts.

[The Black Prince]

I say that Picard was better. 1) He was serious 2) He was smart 3) He had a Brit accent 4) Outside of trek he is known much more than Shattener. I mean Show me the money!? Get real. Stewart did all 3 X-mens and even if they weren't the best at least he has a job!

Anyway although I like Spock I think Data certainly beats his arse. 1) He was an android 2) He has super Strength 3) His humor beats Spock's Logic anyday (or almost any)

I haven't seen DS9. If any one has a copy please send it to:

Picard is Better
Third Cabin
USS Enterprise E

[Tharj TreeSmiter]

Well I think this poll should have been more specific, are we talking about which character is more entertaining? Or which character was a better captian or which actor is better?

Oh I guess it didn't need to be more specific because Picard wins all of those! :) Don't get me wrong I love TOS too but TNG was a much better version of TOS. DS9 was good but in a very different way they had more of a continuous story.

[danielf]

I like the Star Trek generation movie, where both captains appears.

[AmoDman]

Let's face it, Star Trek is made up of some damn fine captains. But Picard puts them all to shame! Bald guys FTW!

[SolkaTruesilver]

Sisko for the win, Picard a close 2nd.

Sisko was a human being, who had a lot of emotion and changed/evolved a lot during the series, to finally ascend, but still was a Badass Commodore, commanding whole battlefleets during the dominion war!

Picard is.. "The-Man-You-Don't-Dare-To-Doubt"


However, I object some people's comments about Sisko's 2nd in command! Kira was, for the first 3 seasons, and stayed First Officer of DS9, but Worf was the First Officer of the Defiant! :smallbiggrin:

Worf = Greatest Badass First Officer ever. Even for a klingon

[LCR]

Picard, of course.
I'd rather trust an intellectual than ... you know, Kirk. He always reminded me of Joey from Friends.
Not a very competent captain, though.

And Sisko?
God, DS9 sucked so bad. I hated that show. He didn't even have a real ship, only this shuttle-thingy called Defiant. Oh, and I hate Kira. And Odo. I like, Worf and O'Brien, though, they're from TNG.

[Callos_DeTerran]

I know next to nothing about Star Trek but I'll still choose Kirk over Picard. Because of charismatic demeanor rather then the intelligence that Picard has. Kirk is, theoretically, better at inspiring courage or loyalty with his words to his crew while Picard probably had to work at it a lot harder and even harder to mantain it.

Intelligence is irrevelant to me since you can serve under a charrismatic, but dumb, leader quite easily...once you ensure that he has a very intelligent second in command whom he listens too.

[Tharj TreeSmiter]

I know next to nothing about Star Trek but I'll still choose Kirk over Picard. Because of charismatic demeanor rather then the intelligence that Picard has. Kirk is, theoretically, better at inspiring courage or loyalty with his words to his crew while Picard probably had to work at it a lot harder and even harder to mantain it.

Intelligence is irrevelant to me since you can serve under a charrismatic, but dumb, leader quite easily...once you ensure that he has a very intelligent second in command whom he listens too.

I think both intelligence and charisma are important in leaders. A leader has be charismatic enough to inspire people but they need to be smart enough to know what to inspire people about. I dumb leader may get lots of people to walk backwards but that doesn't serve any purpose.

I see you point about smart assistants but the leader still has to be smart enough to spot the smart people, to a fool everyone looks smart.

[Shadow of the Sun]

I have always, always, preferred Picard. Because a snooty English accent is better. than. talking. like. this. all. the. time.

I enjoyed DS9 because it had an over-arching story, not just episode by episode. Also, it had Gul Dukat and Elim Garak. And Bashir. And Odo. They all rocked.

[Expladia]

You gotta dig the bald head, and the techno song. Besides, he's a better actor.

Picard all the way man. There. Is. No. Other. Answer.

He did Shakespearean acting for a long time too. I think that's why he has so much more.. oh what's the word?

Talent?

[EmeraldRose]

Picard, of course!!!

[Lord Iames Osari]

Honor Harrington is better, of course

*bleeks in approval*

[Draigo]

Go jean luc!

[averagejoe]

I just thought this needed to be said:

Picard is famous for fighting the borg, the strongest and most dangerous enemy the federation has ever faced.

Kirk is famous for fighting tribbles, a species so utterly defenseless that their entire being is completely geared toward reproducing as fast as they can before someone kills their defenseless selves. I mean, come on, they're prey animals that can't even run fast.

QED

[Chunklets]

Picard for me, since Patrick Stewart is such a better actor than Bill Shatner.

[Lord_Kimboat]

For all those that vote for Pikard, do you know what your taking is illegal? Prescription medicine is not a toy! And, say NO to DRUGS!

Okay, the first and foremost reason Kirk is a better Captain is command. When danger strikes the Enterprise (as it often does), Kirk makes a decision. Now I’m willing to admit that Pikard is smarter and that Kirk doesn’t always make the right decision first time but he makes it and then pretty much sticks with it. Pikard on the other hand calls his crew together like a nice little democracy and sits down with a cup of Earl Gray. The only reason that Pikard survived this is because enemies in his time are usually a little less hostile and they can’t destroy the Enterprise as quickly as they could in Kirk’s day.

Let’s look at combat ability. In Generations, Pikard confronts the hoary old scientist who’s setting up the missile. The scientist then proceeds to beat the tar out of Pikard and go on with his work. In take (round) two, the scientist if confronted by both Kirk and Pikard. Once again, Pikard rolls lucky and wins imitative but the scientist once again beats the bejeezus out of Jean Luc before Kirk comes in. Once Kirk does however, the tables are turned and Kirk certainly takes the hoary old scientist for a trip to the woodshed. The scientist retreats with Kirk hard on his heels. Pikard fans will probably note here that Pikard stops and picks up the phaser and later rescues Kirk. To this I say that this is no indicator of combat or even command ability and that using a phaser to rescue Kirk is something that even an untrained Ensign could have done (I also point out that when Pikard fired, he missed).

As for Charisma, in Insurrection *shudder at horrible memories* Pikard and Co are on a planet with some sort of mild aphrodisiac atmosphere where Pikard, eventually, sits and demurely holds hands with his lady friend. Such gonads! Kirk rarely needed anything like an aphrodisiac atmosphere (although I’m sure he searched far and wide for a planet with one) and while his appearance today seems not to do much for women, tastes change over time. Back in the 60s let me tell you being bald was not even remotely sexy. If Pikard had appeared in the original series his chances of picking up a cute ensign would have been about the same as Quasimodo’s.

Finally, to all those who chose Pikard because he was English or had a British accent; I have to say that I am unaware of any studies current or otherwise that shows that an English accent enhances command. To choose simply on the manner of someone’s speech seems whimsical. As for the one voter who said that he’s in the military and Kirk lost more men – my response is that he lived in more dangerous times.

[averagejoe]

Okay, first, insurrection and the movie that followed it were incredibly stupid, and should be ignored if at all possible. Second, a Brittish accent has a helluva lot more to do with command ability than one's testosterone and seduction abilities. Or one's abilities to pummel hoary old scientists. (Which is not to say that a Brittish accent is necessarily ultra-helpful when in command situations.) Jean Luc has better things to do than seduce young ensigns, anyways.

Anyways, even if Kirk lived in more dangerous times, think of how he would have faired in Picard's time.

Data: We have been investigating the crime, and our preliminary evidence points to that one ensign that has been given actual lines for the first time in this episode.

Kirk: Thank you Mr. Data. I've thought this through, and it was probably Warf, because Klingons killed my son. Shove him out the airlock.

Or when facing judgement by Q.

Kirk, thinking: Judge all of humanity based on my actions, huh? That probably means he wants to see my sexual prowess at work. I'd better get started on that. The fate of the Enterprise depends on my libido!

[TinSoldier]

^ Heh.

Oh, and English accent has no bearing on command? Just look how long the British ruled the world!

Picard = Horatio Hornblower
Kirk = Peewee Herman

[Lord_Kimboat]

^ Heh.

Oh, and English accent has no bearing on command? Just look how long the British ruled the world!

Picard = Horatio Hornblower
Kirk = Peewee Herman

I think the Russians, for one, would be interested to know when they were ruled by the British.

And instead of bringing in mythical people to lambast claims - I mean I could easily say Pikard = Basil Faulty / Kirk = Superman a US invention. Lets go to actual history. I see Pikard as something akin to General Montgomery for the British in World War II. Now Monte was a fine General and eventually managed to beat Rommell in Africa and then pushed on to Europe. I never said I disliked Pikard or thought he was bad at command.

I see Kirk as more Isenhower who led the Americans. They went both further and faster in France and Germany than the Brits did largerly due to Isenhower and Omar Bradley's leadership.

I'm also wondering do people really think that an accent has anything to do with leadership? If you do, perhaps you should write to West Point and ask why 'speaking with a British accent' isn't included in the curriculum.

[TinSoldier]

The accent thing is a joke. For sure.

But to compare Kirk to Eisenhower is an insult to General Eisenhower. Not even close. Eisenhower at least had some strategic and tactical knowledge. Except for the Kobayashi Maru, I could not say the same thing for Kirk.

I could see Picard as Montgomery, though.

And when I said "the world", I mainly meant the large extent of the British Empire, not necessarily the entire world.

[averagejoe]

Well, if we're using historical metaphors then one might compare Picard to Issac Newton and Kirk to Galileo, because even though Galileo had a more gallavanting, flashy, rough-em-up style and had more sex, Newton set down the foundation for modern physics and, umm, defeated the borg singlehandedly. Which Galileo totally couldn't of done, despite the fact that the nubile young space chicks found him irrisistable. To extend the metaphor, while all Galileo did was toss balls off of the leaning tower of Pisa, Newton managed to connect the forces on a falling apple to planetary gravitation.

Wait-what was I talking about?

In conclusion, while I definitely wouldn't want to mess with the guy who would blow up his ship just to kill five Klingons, I'd rather serve under the guy who, ummm, wouldn't do that.

[Lord_Kimboat]

Actually I think your right about the Newton=Pikard and Galileo=Kirk aspect. Galileo came first, was definitely flashy, not always accurate and certainly forged his own path despite what other people thought (in my opinion anyway, this is pretty good command ability). Newton came later and definitely had more to work with, but did more than Galileo ever could have done. He was also smarter too but was known to be a bit of a cold fish.

The crux of the problem though is that their command styles are different. In the Original Series, it was very much following the military model. The command structure was highly vertical, with the Captain at the top and everyone else below. Discipline was strictly enforced and the threats the ship faced were usually immediate and highly destructive.

In the Next Generation’s time, command style had changed. Star Fleet had adopted a corporate approach to command. Pikard isn’t so much a military captain as a CEO. He liaises with his officers as heads of departments who provide advice, information and scenarios for various outcomes. This offers highly varied responses to almost any situation but is very good when you are trying to figure out what your dealing with – against immediate threats it can cause problems.

I remember one episode where they talk about the infamous Pikard maneuver. Basically on Pikard’s first command he encounters an unknown, unidentified ship. Pikard is asked if he wants to raise shield, he says no, it might be seen as aggressive. He approaches and tries friendly conversation. The ship powers up weapons. Pikard is again asked if he wants to raise shields, he again says no and asks how the hailing frequencies are going. The ship fires, severely damaging his ship. Pikard then wants the shields raised but refuses to fire back. Finally, his ship being shot repeatedly, he comes up with a last ditch maneuver, the Pikard maneuver, which saves the ship.

For Kirk, approaching an unknown and possibly hostile ship with shields down would have been anathema, but had he done it, the first salvo would have destroyed the Enterprise.

[Logic]

My arguements for Picard vs Kirk can be best described as who would I rather serve under?

Being a military man myself, my first and most important criteria is how is he going to protect me from harm?
This goes to Picard. (He lost less people, and seemed to care about their well being more than Kirk)

My second criteria: Who has morals and values close to my own?
This also goes to Picard.

My third Criteria: Who seems like a more intellegent intelligent individual?
Picard again (Based on Kirk's speech impediment and his libido being at the forefront of his thoughts)

Fourth criteria: Who inspires me to do my job?
Picard.

So, in 4 areas that I considered important, Picard won all 4. Kirk did not even come close. However, I would much rather have Kirk as a drinking buddy, but not as my captain.

[Lord_Kimboat]

Hi Logic

Those are valid selection critera but for my own money I see things a little differently.

Criteria 1) How is he going to protect me from harm?
Pikard does seem to lose fewer men although I’m not so certain. We may not see a lot of the people he loses. His Enterprise has over 1,000 crew although many of them are civilians. On several occasions his ship gets hammered but we don’t hear about casualties – we just get a damage report concerning the ship and not casualties.

However, I also mentioned that the missions given to Kirk are inherently more military and dangerous. This is why there are no civilian crew on his Enterprise.

Criteria 2) Who has morals and values close to my own?
I always found Pikard to be insufferably self-righteous. A prime example of this is his adherence, yea even reverence to the Prime Directive. I recall one episode where Pikard appears quite content to let a whole planet’s population be killed rather than even try to think a way around the Prime Directive. This is something I couldn’t abide.

He also seems to believe that his morality trumps that of any of his crewmembers. Very much an, “I see how you feel but it isn’t important because I’m right and you’re wrong,” attitude.

While Kirk’s morals are certainly nothing to brag about at least he doesn’t lord them over others.

Criteria 3) Who seems like a more intelligent individual?
Well, you’ve definitely got me there. Pikard is certainly a deep thinker while Kirk acts like he flunked sixth grade. However, in many ways I’d prefer a DECICIVE commander than a brilliant one who dithers. After all, I don’t see many of the world’s generals with multiple doctorates or being invited to Stockholm.
(ps. Did you mean to spell intelligent wrong?)

Criteria 4) Who inspires me to do my job?
You’re joking! Pikard! While I’ll gladly concede that its entirely logical that the Captain should stay safe on the ship – just as a General shouldn’t lead the charge to the front line – Pikard doesn’t inspire me to do much of anything except sleep.

He drones on, speaking elegantly but doesn’t seem to actually DO anything. Me, I’d like a commander who’s at least willing to get ‘into the trenches’ with me and would support doing the ‘right’ thing rather than what the book tells him to do (like the Prime Directive).

[Logic]

Ok, lets hypothetically put Kirk in Picard's Era and Picard in Kirk's.

I think (and this is based on how I percieve Kirk) Kirk would make one hostile move too many, and start interstellar wars with otherwise peaceful aliens. Starfleet would be insane to let the man captain a starship, except during wartime (which, it is likely he had started.)

Picard would probably be a very cautious individual, and in "more dangerous times" this would probably be a virture, not a vice. However, if he were to respond to an alien encounter like he did with the Ferengi at the Battle of Maxia (Where he invented the Picard Maneuver) he would likely lose his ship.
I think that he reacted at Maxia the way he did, because it was a "safer galaxy"

These 2 scenarios I have presented are based off of my knowledge of the many episodes I have watched of both series. The writing for The Original series was rather inconsistant, so I have less examples to show Kirk shining (other than in combat)
Diplomacy is foreign to Kirk. He acts as if a charged phaser is his ace up his sleeve. (Note: I imagine Kirk pulling it out, and saying "Compromise this!")

[EmeraldRose]

Let's not forget they did actually have to work together in one of the movies (I forget which number).

[Zonac]

No comments other than Picard being my favorite. I'm not giving any complicated explanations, but I know, deep down inside... Kirk sucks.

[slipnslide]

No comments other than Picard being my favorite. I'm not giving any complicated explanations, but I know, deep down inside... Kirk sucks.

i couldnt have said it any better myself. i dont need to debate this. i just know. picard is better, kirk...eh.

[Dragonrider]

I have to say Picard. It's probably because I was raised on TNG...but I think it's the best of Star Trek.

[Diggorian]

I'll choose Picard, ofcourse. Those that choose Picard would serve under Picard; those that choose Kirk want to be Kirk.

For Series, greatest to least: DS9, TNG, TOS, Enterprise, Voyager (I've watch every episode of all.)

[TinSoldier]

I'll choose Picard, ofcourse. Those that choose Picard would serve under Picard; those that choose Kirk want to be Kirk. Nicely put, and probably true.

However, I would like to be Picard as well...

[Starblade]

I choose both. I think Kirk fit the rebellious desires of that era perfectly and captured what the audience of that time wanted. Where i think TNG provided viewers with something different for an audience craving something new and different. I think both did what they where supposed to do and that was excite the audience of the time.

Then you get DS9 where they took the attitudes of both series and slapped them together added a bunch of new twists and came out excellent. I dont know why it didnt get more popular? maybe it needed to be aired on a better network?

[Diggorian]

DS9 was the step-child of Trek because it overlapped two trek series. The early show were compared to the more developed TNG.

If you only had time to watch one Trek per week you'd watch TNG because you knew the characters and plot already. When TNG went off the air, you could try to jump in the middle of DS9 (which was just introducing the Dominion) or start fresh with Voyager.

Luckily I had time for 2 Trek shows per week :biggrin:

[Logic]

DS9 was the step-child of Trek because it overlapped two trek series. The early show were compared to the more developed TNG.

If you only had time to watch one Trek per week you'd watch TNG because you knew the characters and plot already. When TNG went off the air, you could try to jump in the middle of DS9 (which was just introducing the Dominion) or start fresh with Voyager.

Luckily I had time for 2 Trek shows per week :biggrin:
When DS9 premiered (I was 8 at the time) I hated it. I didn't understand the relevence, and said "This show sucks. I'll stick to my TNG!"
Then, they cancelled TNG, and its' replacement was on a channel I did not get reception for.
I HAD to watch DS9 to get my Trek fix every week.
The first episode I truely watched was the introduction of the Defiant. When I saw that they were not limited by those crappy Runabouts, I gave the show more serious thought.

Back on Topic:

Picard is still better than Kirk

[Weebl]

Easily Picard. 'Nuf said.

[Cpt.Myers]

Picard is the best for numerous reasons. He is much more diplomatic and doesn't just fight the enemy. He is smarter because he only picked a fight he couldn't handle once. And he was stabbed throught the heart by a strong Nausican and then he LAUGHED! Furthermore proving me right he Knows the right descision to make even if it goes against starfleet orders he knows what is right. I have nothing against Kirk it's just TOS Fight music was stuck in my head for days after watching on episode. Dun Dun Dun Dun-Dun...

[Teal Kuinshi]

Piccard
Because...he's bald. And because I watched a whole lot more 'Star Trek--the next generation' then the original Star Trek shows, which means I know a lot more about Piccard than Kirk.

[zachol]

I liked them both.

If I were going just on the series, I would probably rather watch TNG than the originals, but I like Kirk more than Picard.
Only slightly, though.

I was exposed to TNG first, but I find that, even though I watched a lot of it, and know quite a lot about TNG in general, Kirk is still cooler.

[ravenkith]

Unless you need an alien sexed up or beat up, Picard is your man.

Even then, he can call for a pinch hitter in the form of Will for the former, or Worf or Data for the latter.

[mikeejimbo]

Oh man, this is pretty much the only question I ever thought was hard...

[zachol]

Unless you need an alien sexed up or beat up, Picard is your man.

See, this is exactly why I voted for Kirk. :smallwink:

[Ptolemy]

My dad raised me on TNG, so I can't help but like Picard more.